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Gamester3333
I forget where I saw this, but a team of students at a college (I think it was in ohio) designed automail for a cat, using the ideas of how automail should work from FullMetal Alchemist.

They used low-power servos, and connected the automail directly to the nerves where the limb was severed (by a car).

Amazingly, it worked just like in the show!! Fine motor skills and everything!

The arm felt no pain, but it moved! The cat didn't even know the difference.

The only reason it was disregarded as a permanent solution for limb replacement is that also, like in the show, there was immense pain upon connecting it, much like if you have your speakers turned up all the way, and then connect the signal. The pain was so intense, that no matter how many sedatives they gave the cat, she wouldn't stop meowing. It almost died, so the procedure couldn't be done on humans, but even so, automail really can work.[font=Arial]
sweety_pie
I know this is off topic but...
CODE
[font=Arial]Your words here.[/font]

It appears like..
Your words here.

Its exactly the same
Petalchaser
awesome! ...wow... LOL i'm such a geek but i think that's pretty cool. happy.gif at least the cat can walk though and didn't mauled by the car like mine... . ~_~
asunder
That sounds so cruel.
sweety_pie
Yeah, it does sound cruel.I would rather have my cat, missing legs, than it be in pain.
HalfAsian Alchemist
It may sound cruel, but remember what Pinako said: even the toughest men have broken down when their nerves were connected to automail. I'm sure once they find a way to make that pain go down a bit, automail will exist in our world, to actually be used on humans.
sweety_pie
Yeah but I'm sure those men chose to have auto-mail, and knew of the pain they would suffer from it.Putting it on a helpless cat, that makes it in so much pain that it almost dies is extremly cruel.
paca
I have seen on tv something similar (without the pain) but for humans.
Petalchaser
maybe but it would be cruel to the poor cat to not be able to walk, too wouldn't it? personally, if i lost a leg, i'd wouldn't give a crap how much it hurt because i wouldn't hbe able to tolerate being crippled.
sweety_pie
Cats can still walk if they're missing just one leg...And if they're missing more, well sucks to be that cat.
asunder
QUOTE(Petalchaser @ Jul 21 2006, 08:47 PM) [snapback]424224[/snapback]

maybe but it would be cruel to the poor cat to not be able to walk, too wouldn't it? personally, if i lost a leg, i'd wouldn't give a crap how much it hurt because i wouldn't hbe able to tolerate being crippled.


....you have a choice.....the cat participating doesn't.
sweety_pie
And I think you would care about the pain if you almost died from it.
HalfAsian Alchemist
Think of it this way, what would happen if they had performed the operation on a human, but the pain was more than expected, it killed him? Would it not be more reasonable to test if the technology will first work than to risk a human life? I know that the cat has a life too, but think of all the other types of research that is being performed on animals right now, or those that were done in the past. Most benefited humanity. It's kinda like Equivlent Exchange, a cat is used as the price to find out if automail is possible, and if it can be done to humans. Right now, the pain's too much, I agree, but I'm positive they will come up with some way to lessen it.
asunder
QUOTE (HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 21 2006, 09:36 PM) *
Think of it this way, what would happen if they had performed the operation on a human, but the pain was more than expected, it killed him? Would it not be more reasonable to test if the technology will first work than to risk a human life? I know that the cat has a life too, but think of all the other types of research that is being performed on animals right now, or those that were done in the past. Most benefited humanity. It's kinda like Equivlent Exchange, a cat is used as the price to find out if automail is possible, and if it can be done to humans. Right now, the pain's too much, I agree, but I'm positive they will come up with some way to lessen it.


....
....

there's ethics to animal research.

and don't compare real life to some equivalent exchange bull from anime.
Aoko-chan
QUOTE(HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 22 2006, 06:50 AM) [snapback]424208[/snapback]

It may sound cruel, but remember what Pinako said: even the toughest men have broken down when their nerves were connected to automail. I'm sure once they find a way to make that pain go down a bit, automail will exist in our world, to actually be used on humans.


True, Pinako said that, but those men DID choose to have automails, they accepted the pain. But, the cat probably did NOT choose to endure such pain of connecting the nerves, which makes it very cruel. If they do find to lessen the pain, automail existing in our world is someting quite interesting (me being a fan of automail). Also, knowing that the cat can move like normal is a good thing to hear, and that the pain didn't come for a total waste.
Kel
wow...actually doing that much for a cat takes a lot of time and money O_o what a waste

Iam impressed that it worked but I think...well...POOR CAT! I'd rather let it stay without the leg, I've met many happy legless kittens ^^ personally, if I was crippled I would choose a fake limb rather than automail, cheaper, easier and less weight and rehab to go through! but if automail was the only choice I would totally do it...I would never tolerate being a cripple, even if it meant almost dying from the pain ><
Gamester3333
Yeah, there are ways to lessen the pain, like current prosthetics, but the reason automail is so appealing, is that you can get fine motor skills to work properly. Current prosthetics use computers, which, as you might know, only work with 1's or 0's, making numbers between them impossible (when dealing with integers, floating-point can), like when you connect a computer to the nerves. It can't understand a signal that is stronger near the top, and weaker on the bottom, due to hardware issues. Analog input, like the motor control, or, more like the stick on a playstation controller, can. Automail takes the analog input, with no intermediate transmitter (the computer), and amplifies the signal enough to move the motors in different ways, at different speeds.

Someday, we will be able to integrate this technology into ourselves at birth (circumcision comes close).

Think Strogg (for you quake fans).
Migchao
Poor kitty cat... sad.gif

QUOTE
Also, knowing that the cat can move like normal is a good thing to hear, and that the pain didn't come for a total waste.


But wouldn't the cat be scared of humans since the pain they caused it? huh.gif
sweety_pie
QUOTE
It's kinda like equevalent exchange.


Where is the equevalent exchange if the cat had died?When does the cat come in?

puppet.alchemist what was the point of your post?
QUOTE
woooooooooow
Wtf is with that?
kojirou
QUOTE(HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 21 2006, 06:36 PM) [snapback]424235[/snapback]

Think of it this way, what would happen if they had performed the operation on a human, but the pain was more than expected, it killed him? Would it not be more reasonable to test if the technology will first work than to risk a human life? I know that the cat has a life too, but think of all the other types of research that is being performed on animals right now, or those that were done in the past. Most benefited humanity. It's kinda like Equivlent Exchange, a cat is used as the price to find out if automail is possible, and if it can be done to humans. Right now, the pain's too much, I agree, but I'm positive they will come up with some way to lessen it.


We all know that there are certain animal rights that are entitled to each and every animal there is. Yes, man can utilize these animals for testing certain procedures not yet attempted on humans, but not all procedures can be done on them. Limits should be set such that the poor creatures don't suffer much.

Even in humans, the consent of either the patient or relatives must be given to doctors in order to perform certain operations or procedures that have risks, or would put the patient in great suffering. Well I guess the poor feline was not able to give consent to his operation.

Experiments like these, sometimes are required though. For most of the folks out there moving to the advancement of our technology, a life of a cat is nothing compared to the glory, the benefits, the help, and the new hope that it could give to those who need it. It's a sad reality, that only yuman lives are often valued.
Edamame
QUOTE(Aoko-chan @ Jul 22 2006, 02:08 AM) [snapback]424239[/snapback]

QUOTE(HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 22 2006, 06:50 AM) [snapback]424208[/snapback]

It may sound cruel, but remember what Pinako said: even the toughest men have broken down when their nerves were connected to automail. I'm sure once they find a way to make that pain go down a bit, automail will exist in our world, to actually be used on humans.


True, Pinako said that, but those men DID choose to have automails, they accepted the pain. But, the cat probably did NOT choose to endure such pain of connecting the nerves, which makes it very cruel. If they do find to lessen the pain, automail existing in our world is someting quite interesting (me being a fan of automail). Also, knowing that the cat can move like normal is a good thing to hear, and that the pain didn't come for a total waste.


Unfortunately for the animals, many of our medicines are tested upon them. As Aoko-chan has mentioned, the cat did not choose to endure such excruciating pain and more importantly the cat did not have the choice. I truly see this as an issue of ethics now and I do agree with the experiment whole-heartidly. It would be wonderful to see such an advancement as automail, but I do not want to begin to think about how many animals would have to suffer until scientist were able to lessen the intensity of pain that was felt upon the connection of nerves. At the same time, there is that constantly nagging thought at the back of my mind that keeps on telling me that without animal testing we would not have some of our greatest cures. I was wondering if you have an actual article regarding this experiment because I am interested to see how they carried this out.
HalfAsian Alchemist
Yes, it is true that many practices, including medical, are first performed on animals. But, think about it this way, even if a test animal dies, odds are it would have had we not intervened. Life is so fragile, that the safe bet would be no life at all. That being said, this research is being done to promote a better life for all those who find themselves sudden amputees. Also, that cat would still suffer had it not recieved the automail, it would have to learn to walk all over. True, it is nowhere near the suffering done by automail, yet ask yourself this, if you absolutely had to, would you rather use automail that has not been tested, or automail that, while it has been tested, was tested on animals? I know I would want the tested automail. At least this way, there will be fewer human deaths than if they went straight to human testing.
Sensenic
QUOTE(Gamester3333 @ Jul 21 2006, 10:37 PM) [snapback]424168[/snapback]

I forget where I saw this, but a team of students at a college (I think it was in ohio) designed automail for a cat, using the ideas of how automail should work from FullMetal Alchemist.

They used low-power servos, and connected the automail directly to the nerves where the limb was severed (by a car).

Amazingly, it worked just like in the show!! Fine motor skills and everything!

The arm felt no pain, but it moved! The cat didn't even know the difference.

The only reason it was disregarded as a permanent solution for limb replacement is that also, like in the show, there was immense pain upon connecting it, much like if you have your speakers turned up all the way, and then connect the signal. The pain was so intense, that no matter how many sedatives they gave the cat, she wouldn't stop meowing. It almost died, so the procedure couldn't be done on humans, but even so, automail really can work.[font=Arial]

Impressive!

Could you provide a source, tho? I'd like to read more about it.
Edamame
QUOTE(HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 23 2006, 01:12 AM) [snapback]424659[/snapback]

Yes, it is true that many practices, including medical, are first performed on animals. But, think about it this way, even if a test animal dies, odds are it would have had we not intervened. Life is so fragile, that the safe bet would be no life at all. That being said, this research is being done to promote a better life for all those who find themselves sudden amputees. Also, that cat would still suffer had it not recieved the automail, it would have to learn to walk all over. True, it is nowhere near the suffering done by automail, yet ask yourself this, if you absolutely had to, would you rather use automail that has not been tested, or automail that, while it has been tested, was tested on animals? I know I would want the tested automail. At least this way, there will be fewer human deaths than if they went straight to human testing.


I agree that animal testing is a necessarey evil, but I really want to read an article to learn more about how they carried out the experimentation. I understand that they are a group of college students so I am not exactly sure if they would use the same means as proffesional doctors and researches who have study this field. I can not even fathom the amount of pain that the cat endured considering it still meowed in pain even after being given sedatives. I would never go straight to human testing for something like this, but I think more research needs to be done before trying it out on a helpless animal. (Many animals show remarkable recovery when it comes to amputation. I show a go on television that lost both its front legs but adapted to "hopping" around on two legs. It was pretty remarkable.)
JadeAlchemist
QUOTE(Gamester3333 @ Jul 21 2006, 08:37 PM) [snapback]424168[/snapback]

I forget where I saw this, but a team of students at a college (I think it was in ohio) designed automail for a cat, using the ideas of how automail should work from FullMetal Alchemist.

They used low-power servos, and connected the automail directly to the nerves where the limb was severed (by a car).

Amazingly, it worked just like in the show!! Fine motor skills and everything!


Well, there are prosthetics used all over the world, just not as good as the automails in the FMA series.
kojirou
QUOTE(JadeAlchemist @ Jul 25 2006, 02:05 AM) [snapback]425413[/snapback]

Well, there are prosthetics used all over the world, just not as good as the automails in the FMA series.


Yes, there are. But what I know is, there's no prosthetic body part that is directly connected to the nerves.
AMAG_Chic
People on both sides of this debate have made good points. I feel sorry for the cat too and it's apparent that these students didn't take every precautions before doing such a drastic test. If they planned every aspect of the situation, the cat would not have been in such pain or nearly died because of it. They should of went for something smaller, so that people wouldn't get this upset about it.

Yet, as much as I love animals and feel that they shouldn't be used in such ways, I would rather it be a cat than a human life.


Slicer007
QUOTE(Gamester3333 @ Jul 21 2006, 01:37 PM) [snapback]424168[/snapback]

I forget where I saw this, but a team of students at a college (I think it was in ohio) designed automail for a cat, using the ideas of how automail should work from FullMetal Alchemist.

They used low-power servos, and connected the automail directly to the nerves where the limb was severed (by a car).

Amazingly, it worked just like in the show!! Fine motor skills and everything!

The arm felt no pain, but it moved! The cat didn't even know the difference.

The only reason it was disregarded as a permanent solution for limb replacement is that also, like in the show, there was immense pain upon connecting it, much like if you have your speakers turned up all the way, and then connect the signal. The pain was so intense, that no matter how many sedatives they gave the cat, she wouldn't stop meowing. It almost died, so the procedure couldn't be done on humans, but even so, automail really can work.[font=Arial]

I'm not sure if I should be amazed or disgusted!

I think we all have to remember that all pain is temporary.
If the cat had died the pain would be gone but the cat lived and they said it
hardly noticed the automail leg sothe pain is gone.
Yet,I do agree that they did it to an unwilling cat.
(A liiiiiittle bit mean)



Ushinatta
I agree about it being cruel to do that to the cat, it doesn't have a say, but the idea that Automail could work is really interesting.

I wouldn't care about the pain in exchange for a working leg. The pain is only temporary after all....we feel it everyday.

Would anyone happen to have any further information about this?
InsaneFangirl
QUOTE(asunder @ Jul 21 2006, 02:30 PM) [snapback]424184[/snapback]

That sounds so fu*cking cruel.


Seriously. No matter how much I love FMA, some things aren't meant to be in our world. It's anime, no matter how you look at it. Poor cat.
Automne
...That reminds me of an article called 'When fangirlism goes wrong'...
Popogeejo
QUOTE
Seriously. No matter how much I love FMA, some things aren't meant to be in our world. It's anime, no matter how you look at it. Poor cat.


How dare they try and develope help for those who lost limbs rolleyes.gif

I don't get why this is being called automail though..it's just a prostetic limb FFS. And don't moan about the cat, Animal testing is very usefull. If it had been tested on a human and killed said human you would be more pissed about that.
I say bring on the Cyborg kitties.
Automne
QUOTE(popogeejo Posted Today @ 08:11 AM)
And don't moan about the cat, Animal testing is very usefull. If it had been tested on a human and killed said human you would be more pissed about that.

Hum, no. mellow.gif
Ushinatta
Human testing would probably have been better.

It would have given the scientists a better idea of how 'Automail' on the scale for a human would work, not to mention it would probably be consensual.
Nepharski
QUOTE(Ushinatta @ Jul 30 2006, 10:23 AM) [snapback]427391[/snapback]

Human testing would probably have been better.

It would have given the scientists a better idea of how 'Automail' on the scale for a human would work, not to mention it would probably be consensual.

You wanna be the guina pig for that one?

I've oft wondered if Auto-Mail could work in our world. I mean, it's really a good idea, fandom or not. I should think it brilliant if we could get this to work out.
thearchitect
Honestly lots of our current technology came from old science fiction, nanotechnology, lots of computer stuff, weapons of all kinds, and AI. Just watch "How William Shatner Changed the World" if you don't believe me. Also, testing on animals occurs in most everything we create. It is a necessary thing. Also, if it weren't for such animal testing my dog may have died years earlier than she did. They used new treatments that were being tested after being hit by a car.
sachiko hyuuchi
THat's pretty cool ! The only bad thing is that, what if the injury was serious (ex. burned by fire, etc) and the nerves doesn't work or remain? (remember Falman (was it him?) in the manga. He couldn't use automail).
Shadow Wulfe
So did the cat have pain the WHOLE time or did it go away?

The point of using other mammals is that if something bad happens in an experiment involving a technique or drug that could possibly be used on humans it's better that a human not die/suffer for it.
dahomunculi
hm.. interesting- well, maybe they took a cat who already lost it's limb- maybe the collage studunts took the cat from a shelter or something
Zyric
Intriguing! I'd like to back up Sensenic's request for a source smile.gif

I was thinking... Did anybody here ever watch Dark Angel? It's just that the topic reminded me of Phil (later, Logan's) exoskeleton and if that had any merit in reality, either.
Sonae
My cousin is a lier and she does it alot so this may or may not be true, she told me about a dog who got hit by a car, survived but lost it's two back legs and now it has something like automail but if I find she's lying blame her not me (she has an account:enbi110)
Edward Ikari
Actually, I read in Popular Science that a man who had lost both arms in a an accident was fitted with robotic arms which use nerve links like in FMA, and work quite nicely.

It's a very interesting thing, and I'm wondering if anyone else has heard of it.
Sonae
I haven't
bemused_non-alchemist
I saw something like that on Discovery some time ago, but its nowhere as sophisticated as automail. And it looks pretty ugly.

The whole cat thing requires a full debate on ethics and animal experimentation to resolve, man.Check out Wikipedia.
Greed貪欲
QUOTE(sachiko hyuuchi @ Aug 2 2006, 04:22 PM) [snapback]428434[/snapback]

THat's pretty cool ! The only bad thing is that, what if the injury was serious (ex. burned by fire, etc) and the nerves doesn't work or remain? (remember Falman (was it him?) in the manga. He couldn't use automail).


I see what you mean there. Then the "automail" wouldn't have a place to connect the nerves to. It could be connected to nerves FURTHER into the body, if it was possible, but then automail wouldn't funtion properly.


And it was Havoc that couldn't get the automail.
IttyBittyPretty
QUOTE(sweety_pie @ Jul 21 2006, 07:02 PM) [snapback]424214[/snapback]

Yeah but I'm sure those men chose to have auto-mail, and knew of the pain they would suffer from it.Putting it on a helpless cat, that makes it in so much pain that it almost dies is extremly cruel.



I thought this was insane when I first read it, humans have so many nerves, it can't be done. Then I remembered we have something called MICRO SURGERY and we can re-attach severed limbs. <slaps self on forehead> DUH!

In the anime, Den's automail is attached with straps, but I don't know if that would work with a cat. Mine would go nuts if there was anything around her body. I love cats and I hate the thought of kitties in pain, but once everything heals up the cat should be OK.
Anomia Grey
Really interesting discussion here, glad I stumbled upon it happy.gif The reason I dismissed automail as pure SF is its weight and (supposedly) predominantly martial nature. The name "automail" and the fact that Ed ordered sturdy, battle resistant automail expressly for the sake of joining the millitary mislead me into thinking that automail is more of a weapon than a prosthetic device. But now I see it's not bogus after all laugh.gif But in real life I guess the metal casing would be replaced by plastic coverings, that both replicate the appearance of human limbs better, and are also much lighter...
TheRainbowConnection
I third (fourth?) the request for a source.

This scenario is still very different from microsurgical nerve repair. In such microsurgery operations, the surgeons simply reattach one end of the neural axon to the other end (via simply suturing the two ends together or with an enjoining tube). There, you're simply joining axon to axon. With automail, though, you're joining a severed end of an axon to something mechanical. A cell repairing a gap in its length is far more expectable than it spontaneously fusing to a piece of metal. However, there are nerves that carry signals via physical contact (versus across a synapse), and perhaps such an analogue may be worked out.

Although, such a scenario may not be possible. The neurons of the peripheral nervous system (such as are in the limbs) send signals across synaptic clefts via neurotransmitters. And Wikipedia tells me that axons will regenerate themselves if cut like this. This means that these neurons will simply regrow to form chemical synapses. They cannot be directly bound to something to form an electrical synapse.

Quick rundown on how chemical synapses work

An electrical signal is propagated down the axon until it reaches its end at the synapse. Neurotransmitters get released and bind to the cell to which it's signaling. Then, they unbind and are taken back into the first cell.

Mechanical synapses? Huh?

The problem here now becomes how do you have the automail:

1) bind neurotransmitters, and
2) release those neurotransmitters (as well as degrade them, as in the case with acetylcholine) so that they may be recycled.

Furthermore, you also need to get those axons to target automail instead of muscle tissue. While the axon was previously guided to the correct target via cell signaling mechanisms, it will have to be guided and (more importantly) maintained at the right location artificially.

So basically, in order to have effective automail, it would most likely have to meet the following conditions:

1) Has to express the correct cellular markers to attract and retain axons to form a permanent synapse,
2) Has to effectively detect neurotransmitters (likely by binding),
3) Has to effectively degrade acetylcholine (motor nerves use it, which must be degraded into acetate and choline before endocytosis can happen), and
4) Has to provide an adequate extracellular environment so as to maintain the neuron, synapse, and integrity of acetylcholine and other substrates.

Personally, I think we have a ways to go. tongue.gif

And why yes, I am a biology major. And yes, I think too much. biggrin.gif
~Kurenai~
I don't think the cat would have been 'meowing'.

sources?
ehxhfdl14
I'm not sure it came up yet, but a bionic arm that can perform 25 joint motions(real arm can do 30)was invented. The wearer could play the piano, if they so wished. It's not on the market yet, but the team is considering implanting electrodes directly on nerves—or in the brain itself—to achieve more natural neural control by 2009. It's mind-controlled. The scientists made it look like a human arm(skin covering), and kept it under seven pounds. It was costly, for sure($55 million), but heck, it's a big step forward.

I read it on PopSci, and found the article here:
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/5d...ecbccdrcrd.html
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