Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Stem Cell Research
Fullmetal Alchemist Discussion Board > General Discussions > Open Talk > Debate District
Popogeejo
So just what do you think of this Stem cell mallarkey? Good, evil, usefull or waste of potential human lives?
Rather than give of on mild rant for an opening I'm not gonna give my oppinions just yet. Don't worry, you'll bget them eventually.

Also up for debate: Was Bush right to veto the Bill allow research?
Carnal Malefactor
Just so we're clear, Bush didn't ban stem cell research. He only banned the use of federal funds for it.
22-250
Sorry, but I'm ignorant and stupid 14 year old, and I'd like to know what stem cell research is, and what it is used for?
phoenix dying
QUOTE(22-250 @ Jul 21 2006, 01:23 AM) [snapback]423918[/snapback]

Sorry, but I'm ignorant and stupid 14 year old, and I'd like to know what stem cell research is, and what it is used for?



Were going to use poop's favorate information source...enjoy
HalfAsian Alchemist
Stem cell research can be called either good or bad, but either way it may be the only hope for some people. I believe that Bush has done an injustice to all those with chronic degenerative diseases, be it cancer or some other type of ailment. We may never be able to know the extent of stem cells now, as federal funding has been all but blocked by Bush.

I'm sorry if this sounds like a rant.
ἀρχή
QUOTE(HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 21 2006, 07:38 PM) [snapback]424204[/snapback]

We may never be able to know the extent of stem cells now, as federal funding has been all but blocked by Bush.

FYI: There are other sources of funding for stem cell research. I should know, I help regulate it laugh.gif

Anyway, this all assumes that it is a moral good to "cure" these problems. In a real sense, all this curing that gets done causes massive drains on our economic, social and emotional resources. Perhaps we should all learn to accept the fact that dabilitaing and deadly diseases are a part of life?

Of course, if we didn't expend these resources, I'd be out of a job ohmy.gif.
Popogeejo
QUOTE(arche @ Jul 23 2006, 07:19 PM) [snapback]424832[/snapback]

FYI: There are other sources of funding for stem cell research. I should know, I help regulate it laugh.gif

Anyway, this all assumes that it is a moral good to "cure" these problems. In a real sense, all this curing that gets done causes massive drains on our economic, social and emotional resources. Perhaps we should all learn to accept the fact that dabilitaing and deadly diseases are a part of life?

Of course, if we didn't expend these resources, I'd be out of a job ohmy.gif.


So you're saying we should just have these expensive research labs that don't achive anything to keep up employment? Why not just have people push a Rock up hill if the outcome is going to be the same?
ἀρχή
QUOTE(popogeejo @ Jul 23 2006, 02:31 PM) [snapback]424837[/snapback]

So you're saying we should just have these expensive research labs that don't achive anything to keep up employment? Why not just have people push a Rock up hill if the outcome is going to be the same?

My question is whether we should even bother with curing anyone?

As far as research, it's always a gamble. That's the point. Failures even lead to success. The point is to be innovative and have a reasonable expectation of success. But if the answer to my question is that we shouldn't worry so much about curing things, then I'll have to search for employment elswhere as I'm in a curing industry. There's ideals and there's putting food on the table tongue.gif
Carnal Malefactor
QUOTE(arche @ Jul 23 2006, 02:19 PM) [snapback]424832[/snapback]
Perhaps we should all learn to accept the fact that dabilitaing and deadly diseases are a part of life?


That would put us on a nasty slippery slope.
ἀρχή
QUOTE(Void @ Jul 23 2006, 02:41 PM) [snapback]424844[/snapback]

QUOTE(arche @ Jul 23 2006, 02:19 PM) [snapback]424832[/snapback]
Perhaps we should all learn to accept the fact that dabilitaing and deadly diseases are a part of life?


That would put us on a nasty slippery slope.

That's not a slippery slope but rather a huge cliff. And you're right to be cautious about it. On the other hand, we expend so many resources to "hide" the fact that death, dying and suffering are part of life to begin with.
Carnal Malefactor
QUOTE(arche @ Jul 23 2006, 02:46 PM) [snapback]424845[/snapback]

QUOTE(Void @ Jul 23 2006, 02:41 PM) [snapback]424844[/snapback]

QUOTE(arche @ Jul 23 2006, 02:19 PM) [snapback]424832[/snapback]
Perhaps we should all learn to accept the fact that dabilitaing and deadly diseases are a part of life?


That would put us on a nasty slippery slope.

That's not a slippery slope but rather a huge cliff. And you're right to be cautious about it. On the other hand, we expend so many resources to "hide" the fact that death, dying and suffering are part of life to begin with.

But imagine how much more miserable life would be if we DIDN'T expend those resources.
ἀρχή
QUOTE(Void @ Jul 23 2006, 02:59 PM) [snapback]424850[/snapback]


But imagine how much more miserable life would be if we DIDN'T expend those resources.

Life is miserable still. The misery is just more hidden and displaced. We are obsessed with individual health and wellbeing that we don't care about global problems. There are people giving millions of dollars to cure a specific and fairly rare form of cancer because they are affected by it, but that money would probably do the greater good to be used to solve other more common forms of cancer (and I do literally mean millions of dollars). Or it could be used to re-allocate resources to solve other social issues/benefit other social issues.

To cope with emotional misery, people spend far too much money on things they don't need. Money that could be used to help greater causes. At some point someone has to keep us from being emotional with our resources and think about using them for a greater purpose.

Carnal Malefactor
Not saying you're wrong, but don't you think there's a huge problem when this country is trending towards a general distrust or disavowing of science? The current administration refuses to take any measures to help stem the tide of climate change, spinning the tale that there's still debate in the scientific community over whether or not it's anthropogenic, when in fact the debate ended a decade ago. They promote abstienence-only sex ed programs, despite overwhelming evidence that they do nothing to keep kids from having sex, and in fact make them less likely to have safe sex. They agree with the teaching of 'intelligent design' in public school science classes, even though there's nothing the least bit scientific about the idea. And the disturbing part is that a large portion of the country agrees with them.
Imagine if people had this same attitude when the development of modern medicine revealed dark ages treatments to be obsolete or fraudulent.
ἀρχή
I agree that the current administration is causing far more harm than good. As much as I'm willing to push the value of science as a means to metaphysical knowledge, they are ruining it as a means to any knowledge.

The main issue for stem cells is where they come from. Are they a product of killing humans or not, which is the entire abortion debate/(when is something human?).

Having these debates solved by true politicians is horrible. We really need to think about re-structure of our governmental system and/or properly leverage the system itself better to minimize the Republican/Democrat political structure. It just so happens that the US population can't seem to handle not having their politics served up in nice package deals.
Carnal Malefactor
Thankfully it takes a lot longer than 8 years to turn the U.S. into a third-world country. I just hope that the Democratic party reclaims Congress this year, followed by the election of either a Democrat or Rudy Guiliani or some other moderate Republican as president.
Chiyo
I really can't be bothered to read all of the above, but I will say that I am all for Stem Cell research. If God didn't want these things to happen he wouldn't have given scientists the brains (jk).

Science and medicine are forever improving, this is another way of doing it. Its progress and I do not think it involves 'killing a child'. People shorten their lives to help others everyday by having organs removed.
Ronaldo Rodregez
Good lord, this topic took an emo way out.

If that fetus isn't old enough to know it's alive, I doubt it cares if it's killed. If you use it to cure diseases, then anyone could become the next Einstien, so you can't feed me that crap.

It's all a matter of religious bullshit.
ἀρχή
QUOTE(Ronaldo Rodregez @ Jul 27 2006, 04:23 AM) [snapback]426149[/snapback]

Good lord, this topic took an emo way out.

Not quite. It took a more standard ethical question route
QUOTE(Ronaldo Rodregez @ Jul 27 2006, 04:23 AM) [snapback]426149[/snapback]

If that fetus isn't old enough to know it's alive, I doubt it cares if it's killed.

When you're sleeping, I doubt you realize your alive, so if you're killed in your sleep, we won't prosecute the offender for murder laugh.gif
QUOTE(Ronaldo Rodregez @ Jul 27 2006, 04:23 AM) [snapback]426149[/snapback]

It's all a matter of religious bullshit.

Actually this affects those who are not religious, but morally aware. One major ethical question is whether we breed people to become spare parts/help cure others. Is curing people that important?
Ronaldo Rodregez
QUOTE(arche @ Jul 27 2006, 06:52 AM) [snapback]426174[/snapback]

Not quite. It took a more standard ethical question route

I don't find "accepting diseases" as ethical. That sounds like "wah let's give up" to me. Darwin wouldn't like the sound of that.

QUOTE(arche @ Jul 27 2006, 06:52 AM) [snapback]426174[/snapback]

When you're sleeping, I doubt you realize your alive, so if you're killed in your sleep, we won't prosecute the offender for murder laugh.gif

That's being rediculous on so many levels. That smilely must have raised my anger levels tenfold.

The difference between a matured human being and a fetus:
Fetus: Has no idea of it's life whatsoever.
Matured Human: Knows of it's life and would be pretty sad to know it's going to die.

Fetus: Is not even born yet, the mother can try again.
Matured Human: Funeral. By now the family has grown attached.

I'm not saying a fetus is inhuman, far from it, but to compare it to a grown person is rediculous.

QUOTE(arche @ Jul 27 2006, 06:52 AM) [snapback]426174[/snapback]

Actually this affects those who are not religious, but morally aware. One major ethical question is whether we breed people to become spare parts/help cure others. Is curing people that important?


By researching stem cells enough, we could possibly get to a point where that wouldn't be necessary. But honestly, if you want to talk about morals, what would you choose: Something that doesn't even know it exists yet; or the 11 year old boy who could possibly go on living a full life he already started due to this research?

Sorry, I choose the boy.
Carnal Malefactor
Most of the embryonic stem cell lines that would be used for this research would come from unused embryos that are sitting in fertility clinic cold storage. They're probably never going to be used in any other way, and therefore will likely end up getting discarded or destroyed, anyway. So why not put them to good use? It's absolute bullshit that people lump stem cell research in with abortion, when the two couldn't be more different.
I'm currently watching my grandmother succumb to Alzheimer's disease, so this is a very touchy subject for me. I'd love nothing more than to take a crack at the president's head with a Louisville Slugger right now, just so he understands how brain damage feels... then again, he doesn't know much to begin with, so there wouldn't be much for him to forget... bastard. dry.gif
asunder
From a medical perspective, I sorta agree with a lot of what arche has been saying. Death is something that is inevitable. The amount of money put into research is always questionable. It's really all just a matter of luck and brillance. By having a combination of the two will provide breakthroughs in thinking which will eventually lead to improved treatments. But on the flipside of the coin, this is not an investment nor should it be as seen as such. By placing a million dollars to fund the research of a certain disease, you may find out by the end that you haven't really learned anything substantial.

We're doing what we can to increase the lifespan of people with better equipment / techniques and research. But after having dealt with medical research for a several years, I can say that just by having the available stem cells would be useless without the proper knowledge. Who knows how long it would take to develop that knowledge. This isn't a cure-all despite whatever media or hype may lead you to believe.
ἀρχή
QUOTE(asunder @ Jul 27 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]426244[/snapback]

Who knows how long it would take to develop that knowledge. This isn't a cure-all despite whatever media or hype may lead you to believe.

This is an excellent point. There is a lot of research that is funded, which only fails. Many clinical trials in their early stages are failures and basic research is filled with failure. The hope is that failure will lead to more knowledge, but the ability to obtain knowledge isn't automatic.

BTW Ronaldo: Evolution doesn't require that we cure our diseases. In fact, it may be more important that we do not cure disease and allow ourselves to be altered by the disease to naturally move toward the next level. I don't see why Darwin (or the evolutionist ideal you may be appealing to) would be upset with this discussion.
Ronaldo Rodregez
QUOTE(arche @ Jul 27 2006, 08:41 PM) [snapback]426412[/snapback]

BTW Ronaldo: Evolution doesn't require that we cure our diseases. In fact, it may be more important that we do not cure disease and allow ourselves to be altered by the disease to naturally move toward the next level. I don't see why Darwin (or the evolutionist ideal you may be appealing to) would be upset with this discussion.

I'm refering more to Survival of the fittest. Our ability to cure diseases would be ESSENTIAL to this. By curing diseases, more offspring would survive, which is what fitness is.

Things take time. Things take money. This is the way everything is and has been. Just because they take a lot of each doesn't mean they're a lost cause.
ἀρχή
QUOTE(Ronaldo Rodregez @ Jul 27 2006, 09:46 PM) [snapback]426446[/snapback]

Things take time. Things take money. This is the way everything is and has been. Just because they take a lot of each doesn't mean they're a lost cause.

Nor does it mean they are a meaningful cause. Resources are scarce and even hopeful causes are not equitable causes.
Carnal Malefactor
How much money has this country sunk into the space program over the years? What have we ever gotten out of it?
asunder
QUOTE(Ronaldo Rodregez @ Jul 27 2006, 09:46 PM) [snapback]426446[/snapback]

I'm refering more to Survival of the fittest. Our ability to cure diseases would be ESSENTIAL to this. By curing diseases, more offspring would survive, which is what fitness is.

Things take time. Things take money. This is the way everything is and has been. Just because they take a lot of each doesn't mean they're a lost cause.


Arche and I are being both realistic and practical.We have given you insight into what the research world really is. It's a bottomless pit. No matter how much time and effort in a single area you spend. Human beings may just be too stupid to figure it out. It's not that researching these treatments are a lost cause entirely....but it's more of that the money used for these programs can be used to help out the people suffering right now.

and as well that "survival of the fittest" in a sense means that resistance to these diseases is passed on in the genetic information. Something that will last generations rather some external cure. Having some inherent resistance to certain maladies on a genetic level would prove useful against future maladies that have similar mechanisms.
ἀρχή
QUOTE(Void @ Jul 27 2006, 10:05 PM) [snapback]426460[/snapback]

How much money has this country sunk into the space program over the years? What have we ever gotten out of it?

I have a feeling that the space program may have given us quite a lot of technological value, which has re-invested into the economy in the business world. Of course there's loss, but this is true of all types of research.

I manage grants for research on cancer. I talk with my PI's and know that not everything turns out the way we expect. We also lose money on the deal a lot. In fact, it's not research that makes the money, but rather the actual clinical work. Research often loses money, which donor funds or clinical work have to pick up.

Stem Cell research is about a lot more than just religious anti-abortionists.
Carnal Malefactor
But the point is that the government will ALWAYS throw public money at ventures that get us nothing in return. Might as well throw some at research that carries the hope for curing diseases with it. If it doesn't live up to its promises, so what? We haven't built any bases on the moon yet, either.
ἀρχή
QUOTE(Void @ Jul 27 2006, 10:21 PM) [snapback]426469[/snapback]

But the point is that the government will ALWAYS throw public money at ventures that get us nothing in return. Might as well throw some at research that carries the hope for curing diseases with it. If it doesn't live up to its promises, so what? We haven't built any bases on the moon yet, either.

I understand what you're saying and I wish I could say it too, but realistically I don't know if it's better to put the money into curing diseases. We could be creating super diseases (i.e. super bacteria). I am sure that a quality argument can be made that the space program or many other "wasted" programs do bring demonstrable value (the Big Dig being a major exception because it's ruining my commute tongue.gif)
asunder
QUOTE(Void @ Jul 27 2006, 10:05 PM) [snapback]426460[/snapback]

How much money has this country sunk into the space program over the years? What have we ever gotten out of it?


Think of it this way... the space program is a "romantic idea". One that's been associated with being patriotic and well respected.

How many children wanted to be astronauts when they were kids?

Compare that with how many wanted to be scientists or researchers. Graduate studies (in science and engineering) in the US aren't taken as seriously as in other countries nor are they as financially rewarding as they should be.
Envy's lil' miniskirt
QUOTE(Void @ Jul 27 2006, 07:05 PM) [snapback]426460[/snapback]

How much money has this country sunk into the space program over the years? What have we ever gotten out of it?

For that matter how much money have they wasted on this so-called Drug War? What have we really gotten out of it?

At least there has been advances in technology because of the space program.
phoenix dying
QUOTE(Envy's lil' miniskirt @ Jul 27 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]426473[/snapback]

QUOTE(Void @ Jul 27 2006, 07:05 PM) [snapback]426460[/snapback]

How much money has this country sunk into the space program over the years? What have we ever gotten out of it?

For that matter how much money have they wasted on this so-called Drug War? What have we really gotten out of it?

At least there has been advances in technology because of the space program.


Thats all we do in country. If we don't like someting, we won't do anything about it. We just declare war on it? The war on terror...the war on poverty...war on drugs...

The space program was a way to get back at thoes communist bastards!
Chiyo
I believe I heard this right. On our local news they had a report about a woman who's leg was saved from amputation because of the use of Stem Cells. Its still in experimental mode but so far it has worked for her.

The difference is, I don't think they said they took the stem cells from a egg, they took it from her own bone marrow and adapted it. I can't find the story at the moment but I'm looking.
dahomunculi
It's neither good or bad but should be done- yeah-
000_neji
It's only the money that will be lost in the stem cell research..I agree with it. I have red something about that and it can help many people with brain disorders....
ἀρχή
QUOTE(000_neji @ Sep 18 2006, 06:29 AM) [snapback]447843[/snapback]

It's only the money that will be lost in the stem cell research..

ONLY MONEY!!! That's the point! We tell our children and speak often that money is not everything, but our actions never live this out culturally. Money is a lot. Tomorrow we could probably end poverty if we didn't worry about money (or more precisely economic power).

BTW, there is technically more than money involved, but I like pushing that aspect now.
000_neji
QUOTE(arche @ Sep 19 2006, 02:01 AM) [snapback]448284[/snapback]

QUOTE(000_neji @ Sep 18 2006, 06:29 AM) [snapback]447843[/snapback]

It's only the money that will be lost in the stem cell research..

ONLY MONEY!!! That's the point! We tell our children and speak often that money is not everything, but our actions never live this out culturally. Money is a lot. Tomorrow we could probably end poverty if we didn't worry about money (or more precisely economic power).

BTW, there is technically more than money involved, but I like pushing that aspect now.


Why hesitate to risk the money for the stem cell research if it is for the benefit of the citizen himself? The government should probably make a great decision about it if they will allow it or not. Why can't the scientists or the researchers work freely anyway if their research can help many people...
ἀρχή
QUOTE(000_neji @ Sep 19 2006, 06:11 AM) [snapback]448304[/snapback]

Why hesitate to risk the money for the stem cell research if it is for the benefit of the citizen himself? The government should probably make a great decision about it if they will allow it or not. Why can't the scientists or the researchers work freely anyway if their research can help many people...

It's not necessarily proven to be a quality return on investment - what is the real prognosis for improvement?

Regarding scientists, the dissection of a non-anestetized feeling human being helps scientists help other people, is this ok? Scientists must not be allowed to just do what they want.
000_neji
Scientists don't do what they want but they do it for further discoveries although some other scientists are corrupt,shall I say...
hitokiri
stem cell research is a debate that has been going on for the last 30 years, so there is no real answer. however, seeing as how i don't believe in intrinsic rights of living things or any of that insane life is life crap, i believe stem cell research should not only be government sponsored, it should be mandatory...

make every person donate from the lining of the abdominal wall whenever an invasive sugery is done and whenever there is an abortion the fetus MUST be harvested (for anyone that is dumb enough to say thats sacrilegious, talk to your clergy... they will tell you how the church is against abortion, so it doesn't matter what religion has to say about this issue). oh look now you have plenty of cheap research material.

the best example of stem cell application that is completly horrifying to parts of the population yet a really good idea actually was proposed back in the 60s... i can't actually remember the specific dates or names but here's the gist... there was a scientist that found a combination of genetic markers that could be, only theory at that time, activated to cause lack of a head.

what is the use of such a pointless project? easy... organs. ok let's say you could grow a person in a lab, now you grow a person in a lab with no head that is kept alive with machines... next you headless clone everyone 2 or 3 times as they are born. now whenever you have a medical problem you just cut open one of your extras and take what you need.
000_neji
But in my research as well,stem cell really can help other disabled persons...
ἀρχή
QUOTE(hitokiri @ Sep 19 2006, 08:28 AM) [snapback]448345[/snapback]

the best example of stem cell application that is completly horrifying to parts of the population yet a really good idea actually was proposed back in the 60s... i can't actually remember the specific dates or names but here's the gist... there was a scientist that found a combination of genetic markers that could be, only theory at that time, activated to cause lack of a head.

I believe this was about cloning anacephalics (people without brains) to harvest organs.
Carnal Malefactor
QUOTE(arche @ Sep 22 2006, 11:34 PM) [snapback]449837[/snapback]

QUOTE(hitokiri @ Sep 19 2006, 08:28 AM) [snapback]448345[/snapback]

the best example of stem cell application that is completly horrifying to parts of the population yet a really good idea actually was proposed back in the 60s... i can't actually remember the specific dates or names but here's the gist... there was a scientist that found a combination of genetic markers that could be, only theory at that time, activated to cause lack of a head.

I believe this was about cloning anacephalics (people without brains) to harvest organs.

ohmy.gif That's awesome! Just think of the carpool lane applications!
drworm
Sounds like a decent idea, but I prefer just growing the organ directly. Much less wasted time and effort and flesh. Also is easier to do, and makes the organ more personalizable (AKA has your own genetic structure)
Molecular Alchemist
QUOTE(Void @ Sep 22 2006, 09:02 PM) [snapback]449876[/snapback]

QUOTE(arche @ Sep 22 2006, 11:34 PM) [snapback]449837[/snapback]

QUOTE(hitokiri @ Sep 19 2006, 08:28 AM) [snapback]448345[/snapback]

the best example of stem cell application that is completly horrifying to parts of the population yet a really good idea actually was proposed back in the 60s... i can't actually remember the specific dates or names but here's the gist... there was a scientist that found a combination of genetic markers that could be, only theory at that time, activated to cause lack of a head.

I believe this was about cloning anacephalics (people without brains) to harvest organs.

ohmy.gif That's awesome! Just think of the carpool lane applications!

laugh.gif Yeah, i bet the first person in line for one of those would be that guy that got pulled over in the HOV lane with a blow-up doll for a passenger..hahaha!

Oh, and aside from my comments here that i posted previously, i would just like to remind everyone that stem cell research is good, and underfunded make it legal so i can have a job *cough*
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.