What is the nature of the "human sacrifices" the homunculi keep talking about?
We know that both Ed and Al are on the list, and we know that the homunculi want alchemists that have opened/seen the Gate (as confirmed by Lust in Ch. 39).
Who else is on the list of "human sacrifices"? I recall Marcoh, Mustang, and I think Scar too. Why would State Alchemists that haven't seen the gate be on this list? In other words - are ALL state alchemists skilled enough to be considered valuable "human sacrifices"? Or are we to extrapolate that Marcoh/Mustang are either extremely skilled or have something in their past that makes them a valuable human sacrifice?
Also, when Wrath says that he'll have Mustang open the gate, is this foreshadowing of Hawkeye's "captivity"; in other words, is he planning to use Hawkeye as leverage in order to make Mustang do his bidding, and "open the gate"?
Having only read the Manga through once, and not having the time to read through it again as of now, I was wondering what the general consensus on this stuff is. I know I asked a bunch of questions, but I'd love to hear some feedback on any of them.
Full Version: Who Will Be Father's Human Sacrifices?
I honestly have no idea. I'm assuming that Edward was correct in guessing the State Alchemist program was primarily for use in finding the best Alchemists. The Gate has always been central in the story line to understanding the Truth, so there must be some way that seeing the Truth effects alchemists. It certainly makes them more potent, but if they are merely to be sacrificed, what's the difference is alchemic knowledge?
I have a feeling Gluttony was created so that Father could just flash the Truth in Alchemist's eyes and skip all that debilitating Human Transmutation, but Gluttony failed. We know that Ed, Al, and Roy are confirmed sacrifices. Marcoh being held hostage would indicate that he's a fourth confirmed canidate. Bradley mentioned that he thought Izumi Curtis could make a potentially wonderful asset, and Kimbley is an unconfirmed canidate, as it seems he "Does have what it takes" to open the door, although I have a feeling that if the number of available alchemists drops, Kimbley will serve as a fallback. The real question is, how many Alchemists do they need. Apparently quite a few, because Scar's killings are freaking out the powers that be.
Oh, and Bradley says he'll force Mustang to open the Gate, not Pride. This is the manga. Pride is someone else.
I have a feeling Gluttony was created so that Father could just flash the Truth in Alchemist's eyes and skip all that debilitating Human Transmutation, but Gluttony failed. We know that Ed, Al, and Roy are confirmed sacrifices. Marcoh being held hostage would indicate that he's a fourth confirmed canidate. Bradley mentioned that he thought Izumi Curtis could make a potentially wonderful asset, and Kimbley is an unconfirmed canidate, as it seems he "Does have what it takes" to open the door, although I have a feeling that if the number of available alchemists drops, Kimbley will serve as a fallback. The real question is, how many Alchemists do they need. Apparently quite a few, because Scar's killings are freaking out the powers that be.
Oh, and Bradley says he'll force Mustang to open the Gate, not Pride. This is the manga. Pride is someone else.
WOW! nice eye. I really have no idea ether. sorry that i cant be of any help to you. But i think that the reason that they chose them in perticular is because of the amout of knowlege they each have. To do alchemy you need energy which comes from the soul and the circle. And the knowlege from each alchemist helps to.You have to have the knowlege to do alchemy. Well that is just one reason that maybe they are on the list. Dont know if it is right but.....dont really know. (sorry I am kind of in a hurry so had to sum it down). 
QUOTE(Nepharski @ May 7 2006, 05:07 PM) [snapback]392001[/snapback]
The Gate has always been central in the story line to understanding the Truth, so there must be some way that seeing the Truth effects alchemists. It certainly makes them more potent, but if they are merely to be sacrificed, what's the difference is alchemic knowledge?
Yeah that's what I'm wondering. Logically it would seem that they are valuable for their ability to transmute, not for their ability to be used as an alchemical ingredient. Perhaps to make a legit Philosopher's Stone they need a bunch of really good alchemist sacrifices though, as opposed to just "normal" souls.
QUOTE(Nepharski @ May 7 2006, 05:07 PM) [snapback]392001[/snapback]
The real question is, how many Alchemists do they need. Apparently quite a few, because Scar's killings are freaking out the powers that be.
Good point, I hadn't given much thought about their reaction to Scar's activities.
QUOTE(Nepharski @ May 7 2006, 05:07 PM) [snapback]392001[/snapback]
Oh, and Bradley says he'll force Mustang to open the Gate, not Pride. This is the manga. Pride is someone else.
Eeek, true true. I saw the anime first, so my mind thinks Pride when I see Bradley. I'll edit it to "Wrath" to avoid confusion.
My opinions aren't based on too much information, but...
1. They only need five 'confirmed' human sacrifices. They need a hell of a lot of sacrifices, but why five confirmed? Because the array to transmute the philosopher's stone has five circles around the edges that were bloodstained. It's quite likely that those five are necessary, and then everyone else inside it is killed. So, a confirmed sacrifice would be stationed at different places around the perimieter of amestris, and be killed in the transmutation.
2. The confirmation process of seeing the Truth is a way of 'ripening' the souls. When a soul is touched by the gate and the Truth, it is changed in it's makeup, and can manipulate it's own 'cycles,' allowing it to do clappy alchemy and suchlike.
So, those two things are pretty major. I think that Father doesn't need as many confirmed sacrifices as he might otherwise because he probably has a perfect PS. That would allow him to secrete the stone and recharge Gluttony's. He's probably not interested in making the Stone, since he most likely has one, but something even more sinister.
1. They only need five 'confirmed' human sacrifices. They need a hell of a lot of sacrifices, but why five confirmed? Because the array to transmute the philosopher's stone has five circles around the edges that were bloodstained. It's quite likely that those five are necessary, and then everyone else inside it is killed. So, a confirmed sacrifice would be stationed at different places around the perimieter of amestris, and be killed in the transmutation.
2. The confirmation process of seeing the Truth is a way of 'ripening' the souls. When a soul is touched by the gate and the Truth, it is changed in it's makeup, and can manipulate it's own 'cycles,' allowing it to do clappy alchemy and suchlike.
So, those two things are pretty major. I think that Father doesn't need as many confirmed sacrifices as he might otherwise because he probably has a perfect PS. That would allow him to secrete the stone and recharge Gluttony's. He's probably not interested in making the Stone, since he most likely has one, but something even more sinister.
QUOTE (MonsterEnvy @ May 7 2006, 04:30 PM) 
My opinions aren't based on too much information, but...
1. They only need five 'confirmed' human sacrifices. They need a hell of a lot of sacrifices, but why five confirmed? Because the array to transmute the philosopher's stone has five circles around the edges that were bloodstained. It's quite likely that those five are necessary, and then everyone else inside it is killed. So, a confirmed sacrifice would be stationed at different places around the perimieter of amestris, and be killed in the transmutation.
2. The confirmation process of seeing the Truth is a way of 'ripening' the souls. When a soul is touched by the gate and the Truth, it is changed in it's makeup, and can manipulate it's own 'cycles,' allowing it to do clappy alchemy and suchlike.
So, those two things are pretty major. I think that Father doesn't need as many confirmed sacrifices as he might otherwise because he probably has a perfect PS. That would allow him to secrete the stone and recharge Gluttony's. He's probably not interested in making the Stone, since he most likely has one, but something even more sinister.
1. They only need five 'confirmed' human sacrifices. They need a hell of a lot of sacrifices, but why five confirmed? Because the array to transmute the philosopher's stone has five circles around the edges that were bloodstained. It's quite likely that those five are necessary, and then everyone else inside it is killed. So, a confirmed sacrifice would be stationed at different places around the perimieter of amestris, and be killed in the transmutation.
2. The confirmation process of seeing the Truth is a way of 'ripening' the souls. When a soul is touched by the gate and the Truth, it is changed in it's makeup, and can manipulate it's own 'cycles,' allowing it to do clappy alchemy and suchlike.
So, those two things are pretty major. I think that Father doesn't need as many confirmed sacrifices as he might otherwise because he probably has a perfect PS. That would allow him to secrete the stone and recharge Gluttony's. He's probably not interested in making the Stone, since he most likely has one, but something even more sinister.
mm...maybe they need a sixth one, to open the gate? maybe that's why Mustang was stationed at central?
QUOTE
mm...maybe they need a sixth one, to open the gate? maybe that's why Mustang was stationed at central?
That is a good point. If he's in the center of the circle, that's probab;y the point i which the gate needs to be opened to achieve the full power of whatever is going on. And if Mustang is stationed at central and can't leave because of HAwkeye, then that's another point of proof.
Apparantly, all sacrifices must be people who either can or potentially would open the Gate. Edward and Alphonse already have, so that's two down. Assuming they can capture Izumi (Need a heck of an army), that would make a third Post-Gater. Now they only need two more (three if they don't snatch Izumi), and I'm guessing those two are Mustang and Marcoh...although I have a feeling that soon it will be just Mustang and they'll need another canidate.
This is assuming they only need five, but I'd wager it's probably a tad more than that. If all they need to do is protect five alchemists, why do they (The Homunculi) freak out every time Scar kills one? Couldn't they just round up five and not worry about the rest?
This is assuming they only need five, but I'd wager it's probably a tad more than that. If all they need to do is protect five alchemists, why do they (The Homunculi) freak out every time Scar kills one? Couldn't they just round up five and not worry about the rest?
Good points about the nature of confirmed sacrifices, Envy.
I tend to agree with Nepharski, though, that they'd need more than five. Otherwise it stands to reason that they would have moved by now and captured more than just Marcoh. Now, I doubt that this is a plothole, so I would imagine there's some reason that they can't begin doing whatever it is that they're planning to do yet. In other words, there must be some other variable that is delaying their timetable.
I tend to agree with Nepharski, though, that they'd need more than five. Otherwise it stands to reason that they would have moved by now and captured more than just Marcoh. Now, I doubt that this is a plothole, so I would imagine there's some reason that they can't begin doing whatever it is that they're planning to do yet. In other words, there must be some other variable that is delaying their timetable.
My 2 cents:
First, I would like to clearly distinguish between
(Confirmed) Human Sacrifice (as per Lust's words in that very same page you linked): An alchemist who has opened the Gates of Truth and came back. (And thus has clappy alchemy 'n stuff) and of whom the homunculi-tachi know about, of course (they don't know about neither Izumi nor, at least that we know, Jude).
Human Sacrifice Candidate: An alchemist who is considered intelligent/capable/smart/brave/whatever enough to, some day, open the Gates and enter the above mentioned group.
What is the nature of the "human sacrifices" the homunculi keep talking about?
We know that both Ed and Al are on the list, and we know that the homunculi want alchemists that have opened/seen the Gate (as confirmed by Lust in Ch. 39).
Who else is on the list of "human sacrifices"? I recall Marcoh, Mustang, and I think Scar too.
IIRC, only Marcoh and Mustang have been explicitly mentioned. I believe Armstrong is one too, or else I don't see a reason why he shouldn't have been killed (or tried to, at least
) like Hughes. Those 2 were the only ones in the group Bradley told to "shut up" that we hadn't been told if they were HSC or not.
And Scar, it's waaay the opposite. He's not a HSC, he's a nuisance precisely because he kills... eh... HSC CandidatesU so they want to wipe him out. ASAP.
BTW, Neph, you said they fear him, I disagree. He's a high-priority Problem, yes, cuz he's killing possible future HSC's, but they don't seem to really care that much (probably they think they can prepare enough HSC when they're needed anyway. It's just easier to use those that already are there)
Definitely not all State Alchemists are HS. Rather the opposite, only a few... proof? They didn't care about Tucker's death (he was considered a third rate too) and they don't consider Kimbley to be good enough either. Plus Scar killed so many of them, and yet the only victim they seem to be (minorly) bothered about as of now is good ol' Basque Gran.
And why, or rather, at what point are they considered HSC? No friggin' idea. But we're talking about Father (almost-god-like alchemist) and the hommunculi (who live surrounded by alchemy themselves) here, I guess they know enough to be able to tell whether an alchemist "has what it takes" to open the Gates (and thus become a HSC) or not.
Also, when Wrath says that he'll have Mustang open the gate, is this foreshadowing of Hawkeye's "captivity"; in other words, is he planning to use Hawkeye as leverage in order to make Mustang do his bidding, and "open the gate"?
Yes it was much probably a foreshadowing of Hawkeye's captiveness, because it was at that point when Wrath learnt about how really important is Riza to Roy. More precisely he said it because he had found a way to make Mustang open the Gates (through Riza somehow, indeed), because, hey, it's all good and nice to have them many a Human Sacrifice Candidate, but what they actually need is Human Sacrifices, not just Candidates, therefore, they need them to get the job done sooner or later.
Father was pleased to know Wrath had a plan for the Colonel (one more point for the bad guys) and therefore decided to trust the hommunculus and spare Roy's life.
To sum it all up, the situation as I see it:
- Confirmed Human Sacrifices: Edward and Alphonse Elric.
- Actual HS but only a Candidate for Father's people: Izumi Curtis.
- Actual HS but unknown whether the bad guys know about him or not: Jude
- Human Sacrifice Candidates per se: Roy Mustang, Dr. Marcoh and Alex Louis Armstrong (this last one just my guess)
- Lost Human Sacrifice Candidate, at the hands of Scar: Basque Gran
- Not HSC: Shou Tucker (low-rate alchemist who only -coldly- "cheated" his way to the State title) and Kimbley (considered, but someone said he "doesn't have the guts").
And That's All Folks.
Having only read the Manga through once, and not having the time to read through it again as of now(...)
Be sure to reread it when you can! ( n_n)--b
My opinions aren't based on too much information, but...
1. They only need five 'confirmed' human sacrifices. They need a hell of a lot of sacrifices, but why five confirmed? Because the array to transmute the philosopher's stone has five circles around the edges that were bloodstained. It's quite likely that those five are necessary, and then everyone else inside it is killed. So, a confirmed sacrifice would be stationed at different places around the perimieter of amestris, and be killed in the transmutation.
Hmmm? Now when did they say that in the manga? I mean, them bad guys needing 5 HS and each one of them needing to be in one of the Amestris' Big Circle spots. I don't recall reading such things in the manga... just as theories here. Correct me if I'm wrong, tho' >_<
First, I would like to clearly distinguish between
(Confirmed) Human Sacrifice (as per Lust's words in that very same page you linked): An alchemist who has opened the Gates of Truth and came back. (And thus has clappy alchemy 'n stuff) and of whom the homunculi-tachi know about, of course (they don't know about neither Izumi nor, at least that we know, Jude).
Human Sacrifice Candidate: An alchemist who is considered intelligent/capable/smart/brave/whatever enough to, some day, open the Gates and enter the above mentioned group.
QUOTE(Ant @ May 7 2006, 08:22 PM) [snapback]391856[/snapback]
What is the nature of the "human sacrifices" the homunculi keep talking about?
We know that both Ed and Al are on the list, and we know that the homunculi want alchemists that have opened/seen the Gate (as confirmed by Lust in Ch. 39).
Who else is on the list of "human sacrifices"? I recall Marcoh, Mustang, and I think Scar too.
IIRC, only Marcoh and Mustang have been explicitly mentioned. I believe Armstrong is one too, or else I don't see a reason why he shouldn't have been killed (or tried to, at least
) like Hughes. Those 2 were the only ones in the group Bradley told to "shut up" that we hadn't been told if they were HSC or not.And Scar, it's waaay the opposite. He's not a HSC, he's a nuisance precisely because he kills... eh... HSC Candidates
U so they want to wipe him out. ASAP.BTW, Neph, you said they fear him, I disagree. He's a high-priority Problem, yes, cuz he's killing possible future HSC's, but they don't seem to really care that much (probably they think they can prepare enough HSC when they're needed anyway. It's just easier to use those that already are there
)QUOTE(Ant @ May 7 2006, 08:22 PM) [snapback]391856[/snapback]
Why would State Alchemists that haven't seen the gate be on this list? In other words - are ALL state alchemists skilled enough to be considered valuable "human sacrifices"? Or are we to extrapolate that Marcoh/Mustang are either extremely skilled or have something in their past that makes them a valuable human sacrifice?
Definitely not all State Alchemists are HS. Rather the opposite, only a few... proof? They didn't care about Tucker's death (he was considered a third rate too) and they don't consider Kimbley to be good enough either. Plus Scar killed so many of them, and yet the only victim they seem to be (minorly) bothered about as of now is good ol' Basque Gran.
And why, or rather, at what point are they considered HSC? No friggin' idea. But we're talking about Father (almost-god-like alchemist) and the hommunculi (who live surrounded by alchemy themselves) here, I guess they know enough to be able to tell whether an alchemist "has what it takes" to open the Gates (and thus become a HSC) or not.
QUOTE(Ant @ May 7 2006, 08:22 PM) [snapback]391856[/snapback]
Also, when Wrath says that he'll have Mustang open the gate, is this foreshadowing of Hawkeye's "captivity"; in other words, is he planning to use Hawkeye as leverage in order to make Mustang do his bidding, and "open the gate"?
Yes it was much probably a foreshadowing of Hawkeye's captiveness, because it was at that point when Wrath learnt about how really important is Riza to Roy. More precisely he said it because he had found a way to make Mustang open the Gates (through Riza somehow, indeed), because, hey, it's all good and nice to have them many a Human Sacrifice Candidate, but what they actually need is Human Sacrifices, not just Candidates, therefore, they need them to get the job done sooner or later.
Father was pleased to know Wrath had a plan for the Colonel (one more point for the bad guys) and therefore decided to trust the hommunculus and spare Roy's life.
To sum it all up, the situation as I see it:
- Confirmed Human Sacrifices: Edward and Alphonse Elric.
- Actual HS but only a Candidate for Father's people: Izumi Curtis.
- Actual HS but unknown whether the bad guys know about him or not: Jude
- Human Sacrifice Candidates per se: Roy Mustang, Dr. Marcoh and Alex Louis Armstrong (this last one just my guess)
- Lost Human Sacrifice Candidate, at the hands of Scar: Basque Gran
- Not HSC: Shou Tucker (low-rate alchemist who only -coldly- "cheated" his way to the State title) and Kimbley (considered, but someone said he "doesn't have the guts").
And That's All Folks.
QUOTE(Ant @ May 7 2006, 08:22 PM) [snapback]391856[/snapback]
Having only read the Manga through once, and not having the time to read through it again as of now(...)
Be sure to reread it when you can! ( n_n)--b
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ May 8 2006, 02:30 AM) [snapback]392084[/snapback]
My opinions aren't based on too much information, but...
1. They only need five 'confirmed' human sacrifices. They need a hell of a lot of sacrifices, but why five confirmed? Because the array to transmute the philosopher's stone has five circles around the edges that were bloodstained. It's quite likely that those five are necessary, and then everyone else inside it is killed. So, a confirmed sacrifice would be stationed at different places around the perimieter of amestris, and be killed in the transmutation.
Hmmm? Now when did they say that in the manga? I mean, them bad guys needing 5 HS and each one of them needing to be in one of the Amestris' Big Circle spots. I don't recall reading such things in the manga... just as theories here. Correct me if I'm wrong, tho' >_<
QUOTE(Nepharski @ May 7 2006, 08:10 PM) [snapback]392193[/snapback]
Apparantly, all sacrifices must be people who either can or potentially would open the Gate. Edward and Alphonse already have, so that's two down. Assuming they can capture Izumi (Need a heck of an army), that would make a third Post-Gater. Now they only need two more (three if they don't snatch Izumi), and I'm guessing those two are Mustang and Marcoh...although I have a feeling that soon it will be just Mustang and they'll need another canidate.
That made me giggle.
But Wrath is so much of a demi-god that chances are he could best Izumi.
MonsterEnvy's theory is pretty cool.
I don't actually have a theory of my own, but I have some thoughts. I need to research a bit more.
QUOTE (Sensenic @ May 8 2006, 07:25 AM)
QUOTE (Ant @ May 7 2006, 08:22 PM)
Also, when Wrath says that he'll have Mustang open the gate, is this foreshadowing of Hawkeye's "captivity"; in other words, is he planning to use Hawkeye as leverage in order to make Mustang do his bidding, and "open the gate"
Yes it was much probably a foreshadowing of Hawkeye's captiveness, because it was at that point when Wrath learnt about how really important is Riza to Roy. More precisely he said it because he had found a way to make Mustang open the Gates (through Riza somehow, indeed), because, hey, it's all good and nice to have them many a Human Sacrifice Candidate, but what they actually need is Human Sacrifices, not just Candidates, therefore, they need them to get the job done sooner or later.
Father was pleased to know Wrath had a plan for the Colonel (one more point for the bad guys) and therefore decided to trust the hommunculus and spare Roy's life.
To sum it all up, the situation as I see it:
- Confirmed Human Sacrifices: Edward and Alphonse Elric.
- Actual HS but only a Candidate for Father's people: Izumi Curtis.
- Actual HS but unknown whether the bad guys know about him or not: Jude
- Human Sacrifice Candidates per se: Roy Mustang, Dr. Marcoh and Alex Louis Armstrong (this last one just my guess)
- Lost Human Sacrifice Candidate, at the hands of Scar: Basque Gran
- Not HSC: Shou Tucker (low-rate alchemist who only -coldly- "cheated" his way to the State title) and Kimbley (considered, but someone said he "doesn't have the guts").
And That's All Folks.
Was Blind Alchemist really canon? I'm not so sure that Arakawa-sensei would pull our a gaiden for an HS candidate, although it's possible that they'll use him as well as Mustang, Izumi, Ed, and Al to make the five, and not have to introduce curious alchemists.
Incidentally, Scar is not an alchemist. He can just push energy into his tattoo or somesuch and kill people, but he doesn't really understand how it works.
QUOTE (Sensenic @ May 8 2006, 07:25 AM)
QUOTE (MonsterEnvy @ May 8 2006, 02:30 AM)
My opinions aren't based on too much information, but...
1. They only need five 'confirmed' human sacrifices. They need a hell of a lot of sacrifices, but why five confirmed? Because the array to transmute the philosopher's stone has five circles around the edges that were bloodstained. It's quite likely that those five are necessary, and then everyone else inside it is killed. So, a confirmed sacrifice would be stationed at different places around the perimieter of amestris, and be killed in the transmutation.
Hmmm? Now when did they say that in the manga? I mean, them bad guys needing 5 HS and each one of them needing to be in one of the Amestris' Big Circle spots. I don't recall reading such things in the manga... just as theories here. Correct me if I'm wrong, tho' >_<
Nono, you're right. I said that tthe theory isn't based off of much at all except for one quick glimpse of the PS transmutation circle. That made me think that only five major sacrifices would be necessary. There isn't even a confirmed 'big circle,' just an allusion to something similar by (was it Envy?)
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ May 9 2006, 11:38 PM) [snapback]393016[/snapback]
Was Blind Alchemist really canon? I'm not so sure that Arakawa-sensei would pull our a gaiden for an HS candidate, although it's possible that they'll use him as well as Mustang, Izumi, Ed, and Al to make the five, and not have to introduce random alchemists.
Well, all other gaidens being canon indeed, I don't see why this one wouldn't be.
Plus, Jude's in the Perfect Guide Book 2, in the "character encyclopedia" (where they show every last character from FMA and give a little info about all of them).
I don't know if he'll ever appear again, nor if the hommunculi know about him at all... But, having done Human Transmutation and having payed the fee and survived, one can conclude he did open the doors and that he is a valid Human Sacrifice. No?
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ May 9 2006, 11:38 PM) [snapback]393016[/snapback]
Nono, you're right. I said that tthe theory isn't based off of much at all except for one quick glimpse of the PS transmutation circle. That made me think that only five major sacrifices would be necessary. There isn't even a confirmed 'big circle,' just an allusion to something similar by (was it Envy?)
Oh, my bad, I failed to read the "My opinions aren't based on too much information, but..." line, and I thought you were stating those as facts.
Gomen. /(;^_^)
EDIT: Oh, and yes, it was Envy. Well, Marcoh said that and Envy replied that he "got close".
This just might sound crazy but what if they needed 7 candidate?? As in the seven sins which the homuculi are named after, therefore you have seven virtues???
But, 5 might seem right, I haven't resend the transmutation circle for the PS (Have to see those pages again ).
Actually, I have a hard time believing Armstrong is a Candidate because he's so soft. The war pretty much proved that.
But, 5 might seem right, I haven't resend the transmutation circle for the PS (Have to see those pages again
).Actually, I have a hard time believing Armstrong is a Candidate because he's so soft. The war pretty much proved that.
QUOTE(Ant @ May 7 2006, 11:22 AM) [snapback]391856[/snapback]
..Who else is on the list of "human sacrifices"? I recall Marcoh, Mustang, and I think Scar too. ...
I don't believe Scar is amoungs the crew, mostly because they homunculi openly want to kill him (as Gluttony was not stop when he went to glup him down before, even encourages by lust). Also the only alchemy Scar can preform is to decompose stuff. He cannot use this markings alone to open the gate. Negating any importance he might have towards the homunculi and Father.
hope this helps a bit understanding Scar's situation in this area.
Crackpot Theory!!
Just had an idea! We all know Father wants to be an immortal being or whatever he's trying to become but as to what Hoho said about him wanting a family, maybe he wants the sacrifices to be some sort of powerful immortal family?
Think about it, as far as I know, the 7 sins never saw the gate and they probably could never do so. Father being this high and mighty powerful being, he'd be limited by the things that this "family" of his could not.
Enter the sacrifices, he'd be able to make a powerful, subservient fam by getting alchemists that have either seen the gate or have abilities beyond regular folk.
Also, Father is apparently human or so some believe from this chapter and so that may have a lot to do with this in some way (not quite sure how to work it in just yet).
Any thoughts?
Just had an idea! We all know Father wants to be an immortal being or whatever he's trying to become but as to what Hoho said about him wanting a family, maybe he wants the sacrifices to be some sort of powerful immortal family?
Think about it, as far as I know, the 7 sins never saw the gate and they probably could never do so. Father being this high and mighty powerful being, he'd be limited by the things that this "family" of his could not.
Enter the sacrifices, he'd be able to make a powerful, subservient fam by getting alchemists that have either seen the gate or have abilities beyond regular folk.
Also, Father is apparently human or so some believe from this chapter and so that may have a lot to do with this in some way (not quite sure how to work it in just yet).
Any thoughts?
<Program Note>
@o-ren - I moved your post here from chapter 97 discussion thread, as this one seems very much related to your discussion topic. Hopefully, others can add more opinions and theories on this also.
@o-ren - I moved your post here from chapter 97 discussion thread, as this one seems very much related to your discussion topic. Hopefully, others can add more opinions and theories on this also.
all the sacrifices have been confirmed now right? edward, alphonse, izumi, honenhime and roy potentialy. What im wondering is how they will leaver roy into opening the gate. Theres no way he would do it to revive someone (he didnt with hugues simply saying he understood what the elrics felt) he knows it would end in diaster just by looking at ed and al. I'm thinking maybe they´ll threaten to kill Riza if he refuses to open the gate I spose mmm
I´m so curious as to what will happen to the sacrifices. The rest of Amestria´s people will die so even though they are called ´sacrifices´it seems a bit odd for them to meet the same fate. Perhaps they will suffer something worse...
I´m so curious as to what will happen to the sacrifices. The rest of Amestria´s people will die so even though they are called ´sacrifices´it seems a bit odd for them to meet the same fate. Perhaps they will suffer something worse...
QUOTE ("Forsaken Love")
all the sacrifices have been confirmed now right?
No. Izumi is still not confirmed since Father is not sure she has seen the door. And the Homonculus have two options for the last spot, either Roy or Marcoh. For talent only, I would go for Marcoh, but Roy is the more emotional of the two, so he is the more likely to try and open the door.
Ed, Al and Izumi are all sacrifices, so there's two we don't know.
So far Roy has been confirmed to be a potential sacrifice by Bradley, but we don't know if it will really happens (it's been such a long time since we heard about this...)
Speculations are that Hohenheim, Marcoh and Scar could be one too, but it hasn't been mentionned by any character in the manga, as far as I know.
Also, I didn't hear this anywhere else, but wouldn't the blind alchemist be a confirmed sacrifice?
Finally the last two sacrifices could also be people not introduced yet.
Is there anyone I forgot?
So far Roy has been confirmed to be a potential sacrifice by Bradley, but we don't know if it will really happens (it's been such a long time since we heard about this...)
Speculations are that Hohenheim, Marcoh and Scar could be one too, but it hasn't been mentionned by any character in the manga, as far as I know.
Also, I didn't hear this anywhere else, but wouldn't the blind alchemist be a confirmed sacrifice?
Finally the last two sacrifices could also be people not introduced yet.
Is there anyone I forgot?
QUOTE
Ed, Al and Izumi are all sacrifices, so there's two we don't know.
Hohenheim is a confirmed sacrifice too (remember the end of volume 18 : Al, Ed and Hoheheim were confirmed, he wasn't sure about Izumi, probably because he didn't know if she saw the door or not), so there's only one we're not sure about. And it's either Roy or Tim. Scar is not a real alchemist, he doesn't have the skill to open the door. Same goes for May I think, it's two really different kind of alchemy we're talking about here. While Roy and Marcoh were both monitored and kept an eye on because they were both potential sacrifice, both have the skill and the heart to open the door.
Jude Law, the Blind Alchemist, is a confirmed sacrifice. But the Homonculus don't know about him, Arakawa said so in the last Character Book.
Well, TBH I don't think the last sacrifice would be so easy to guess. It's very possible it's Mustang or Marcoh, but...I dunno. I just am not too sure about them. However, there really isn't anyone left that I can think of off the top of my head...
And a lot of people don't think Mustang or Marcoh are potential sacrifices anymore because they weren't pulled into the gate like the Izumi, Ed, and Al. I thought it was pretty self-explanatory that they were pulled in because they've seen the gate already. O.o And the reason Hoho wasn't seen getting pulled in too was because we haven't gotten back to his fight with Father yet to see the follow up. I mean, I'm not sure about any of this, but that's what instantly went through my head when I read it.
So...people who CANNOT or PROBABLY CANNOT be a sacrifice:
-Scar (uses different alchemy, wanted dead)
-May (uses different alchemy)
-Jude Law (Homunculi don't know of him, extremely minor side-character)
-Kimblee ('doesn't have the nerve', possibly dead)
-Hawkeye [don't ask why. Some people in other forums have speculated her] - (has possible knowledge of alchemy + tattoo, is not significantly tied to it nor an alchemist to begin with)
MAYBE could be a sacrifice:
-Armstrong (uses proper alchemy - not really monitored by the Homunculi and may not have the nerve)
Very Possible Sacrifices:
-Tim Marcoh (heavily monitored and observed, was very involved with them in civil war)
-Roy Mustang (heavily monitored and observed, is bold and will do the most drastic things to save his comrades and friends)
I have a bad memory, LOL. Shout out if you can think of other people.
EDIT:
GIMPY - the idea of two newly introduced characters this late in the story would make the whole thing a bit disconnected, IMO. I dunno, we've all kinda read and watched Ed, Al, Izumi, Scar, Marcoh, Hoho, Mustang and others with their struggles and goals and how they've grown and it would be a bit hard on us to try to connect with new characters to the same level of depth so late and suddenly in the story.
And a lot of people don't think Mustang or Marcoh are potential sacrifices anymore because they weren't pulled into the gate like the Izumi, Ed, and Al. I thought it was pretty self-explanatory that they were pulled in because they've seen the gate already. O.o And the reason Hoho wasn't seen getting pulled in too was because we haven't gotten back to his fight with Father yet to see the follow up. I mean, I'm not sure about any of this, but that's what instantly went through my head when I read it.
So...people who CANNOT or PROBABLY CANNOT be a sacrifice:
-Scar (uses different alchemy, wanted dead)
-May (uses different alchemy)
-Jude Law (Homunculi don't know of him, extremely minor side-character)
-Kimblee ('doesn't have the nerve', possibly dead)
-Hawkeye [don't ask why. Some people in other forums have speculated her] - (has possible knowledge of alchemy + tattoo, is not significantly tied to it nor an alchemist to begin with)
MAYBE could be a sacrifice:
-Armstrong (uses proper alchemy - not really monitored by the Homunculi and may not have the nerve)
Very Possible Sacrifices:
-Tim Marcoh (heavily monitored and observed, was very involved with them in civil war)
-Roy Mustang (heavily monitored and observed, is bold and will do the most drastic things to save his comrades and friends)
I have a bad memory, LOL. Shout out if you can think of other people.
EDIT:
GIMPY - the idea of two newly introduced characters this late in the story would make the whole thing a bit disconnected, IMO. I dunno, we've all kinda read and watched Ed, Al, Izumi, Scar, Marcoh, Hoho, Mustang and others with their struggles and goals and how they've grown and it would be a bit hard on us to try to connect with new characters to the same level of depth so late and suddenly in the story.
QUOTE (Sannom @ Sep 16 2009, 04:21 PM)
Hohenheim is a confirmed sacrifice too
Well, yes, but Hohenheim is kind of hard to chew
. So Father might end up using someone else instead of him, if he ever does reach that point (remember the "counter" thing Hohenheim was talking about).At first, I thought the Jude Law suggestion was a joke o_0. I really need to get the blind alchemist's gaiden... Oh wait, if it is a gaiden (I mean "canon", unlike the omakes), and if those black tiny hands can do their job on their own, they MAY get him. Daaaamn.
EDIT: ¿Is that alchemist blind because of a human transmutation? I mean, I read "blind" and "confirmed sacrifice" and I can't help but thinking that.
The state of Hohenheim's existence -- a being running on a legit Philosopher's Stone -- would lead me to believe he'd be resistant to sacrifice.
We've speculated that Hoho might have been taken. Has anyone considered the possibility that Father himself might have been taken to the Doors of Truth?
Also: It'd be hilarious in a wtf sort of way if the 5th sacrifice was the Blind Alchemist from the side story. Imagine: Izumi, Ed, Al, and Hoho (assuming he's the 4th sacrifice) all know each other and know what's going on with the military conspiracy... then there's this 5th clueless person.
Actually, no, that'd be sad. I feel bad for the Blind Alchemist.
Also: It'd be hilarious in a wtf sort of way if the 5th sacrifice was the Blind Alchemist from the side story. Imagine: Izumi, Ed, Al, and Hoho (assuming he's the 4th sacrifice) all know each other and know what's going on with the military conspiracy... then there's this 5th clueless person.
Actually, no, that'd be sad. I feel bad for the Blind Alchemist.
QUOTE (Gukumatz @ Sep 17 2009, 05:32 PM)
We've speculated that Hoho might have been taken. Has anyone considered the possibility that Father himself might have been taken to the Doors of Truth?
Also: It'd be hilarious in a wtf sort of way if the 5th sacrifice was the Blind Alchemist from the side story. Imagine: Izumi, Ed, Al, and Hoho (assuming he's the 4th sacrifice) all know each other and know what's going on with the military conspiracy... then there's this 5th clueless person.
Actually, no, that'd be sad. I feel bad for the Blind Alchemist.
Also: It'd be hilarious in a wtf sort of way if the 5th sacrifice was the Blind Alchemist from the side story. Imagine: Izumi, Ed, Al, and Hoho (assuming he's the 4th sacrifice) all know each other and know what's going on with the military conspiracy... then there's this 5th clueless person.
Actually, no, that'd be sad. I feel bad for the Blind Alchemist.
Omg. You're so right! Blind Alchemist - I completely forgot about him!
Although perhaps he wasn't "chosen" cause he wasn't considered fit enough to do... whatever it is they are doing. Like, physically.
Yeah, this series is giving me emotional problems. I hate waiting for the next chapter grr.
QUOTE (Trizo @ Sep 17 2009, 11:24 AM)
Omg. You're so right! Blind Alchemist - I completely forgot about him!
Although perhaps he wasn't "chosen" cause he wasn't considered fit enough to do... whatever it is they are doing. Like, physically.
Although perhaps he wasn't "chosen" cause he wasn't considered fit enough to do... whatever it is they are doing. Like, physically.
He's already past the "physical" test, which is human transmutation itself. I mean, if it was just "health" or something like that, Izumi could have been discarded from the very beginning (as far as I know, Father and his gang don't know about Hohenheim "fixing" her).
But I wish he is not drawn by the black hands like the ones everybody knows who have seen Truth. It would ruin the mood of his story. (Yes, I've already read it T_T). Besides, he lives in another city, so that's unlikely to happen. ^^
(Off-topiquesque non-crackpot theory:)
I have found some resistance to the idea that the blind alchemist has actually seen Truth in another forum, don't remember the name. I do believe that he has. There we have Al, who also lost his eyes in the process of human transmutation (along with the rest of his body
U)). That if he actually did try the SAME thing. Given that the Rozarie girl's "body" or "container" of his story does move (quite a little, but she/it does), I believe he succeeded... but at something different. Maybe he performed an affix, either by linking the soul of a seemingly dead Rozarie to the "container" -which leaves the question of what happened to her body, if it wasn't an affix to IT as an inert container- or by linking another nearby soul (I suspect it is the latter, because if it was her, she would behave like the child she is, no matter the container. Then again, look at Al: his actual "body" is nothing but metal, and that doesn't stop him 
). Does it count as "seeing the gate"? Judging from the manga, I think so. (Which saddens me more: nobody told the poor guy the advantages of it, though it would explain why he wasn't spotted by Father's gang... but he was spotted by the brothers!)Ahhh, I just remembered one more theory from the Internet: maybe the blind alchemist made a homunculus, just not a "sin" because he didn't plan it that way like Father did. Quite cheap, I would say (only losing his eyes?), and unlikely (Father used an entire philosopher's stone for each one of his).
Sorry. TOO many spoilers... but it was necessary. ^^U
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