*sighs* I told you already. God doesn't make gay people and then hate them. I'm not even sure why and how people turn out gay yet, maybe I never will, but eventually I'll try and give a good educated guess.

And about God hating homosexuals, I explained this. God doesn't hate the person, he hates homosexuality. He loves the homosexual and hates homosexuality because it's a sin. Got that?

That's perverse logic. If god was really all-powerful and hated homosexuality, he'd make it so that there were no homosexuals to begin with. We already know that it's not and never has been a choice, so if there's a higher power at work, then that higher power is also responsible for the creation of homosexuality, because it doesn't fall under the category of 'free will'.

Okay, here's the Dantean (and catholic, and some kinds of protestant interpretation)

I'll play the Devil's advocate (for the catholic church! *tee hee*) for a moment, so don't think that I actually believe or support these ideas. It's just a clarification of the doctrine.

God (or, more specifically, the 'Jesus' aspect of the Trinity) loves all people. God (or, more specifically, the 'Father' aspect of the Trinity) hates all sins. So, as FMS said, in Catholicism and many types of Christianity, 'Jesus' loves the homosexual and the 'Father' hates homosexuality. If the homosexual truly repents his homosexuality and feels guilt for it, and wants to be forgiven, and has faith in God, then Jesus will forgive his sins, he'll spend a while burning in the ninth precinct of Purgatory, then pass through the wall of final purifying flame and be taken into Heaven by God (or, more specifically, the 'Holy Spirit' aspect of the Trinity.) If the homosexual enjoys his homosexuality, and flaunts it at the Trinity, and does not wish for forgiveness, then he will not be forgiven by God and will burn in hell for all eternity. It's like a theif repenting the stealing he did to feed his family, or the master criminal who loves to rob and doesn't give a damn.

So, that works best when you assume that homosexuality is a choice. If you assume that it's inborn, you get into a sticky area about a test of faith and things- God wants to see if you can still believe in him and repent your very nature. it's the ultimate test of faith, and a lot like the belief that all men are born sinners. it' just that the homosexual is more so.

Yep, so that's the biblical view. Don't argue with me; argue with the bible. They're not my ideas.

I really don't care, I have friends that are gays, is not my life or my problem, I like them the way they are, and even if I don't, they are not gonna change to please me.

This topic came up at (cathlic) youth group once. The leader said its wrong and they're going to hell because of the wholl man/woman thing. someone said are they suposed to lie to themselvs and get married any way? She said no they simply have to live a chast life like preists and nuns and maybe even become one.
But then they made a rule that says gay men can't be preists. So now what?

It also came up druing sex-ed. years ago. All the teacher did was define Homosexuality as being atracted to the same sex. Not good enough!

I personaly (despite baing Catholic) have no problem with some people being gay. I beleive it was not they're chose and there for should not be frownd apon for simply being who they are and how they were born.

The last Wednsday in April is the Day of Silence. Were kids at my high school where rainbow ribbons and do not speek for one wholl day. We are silent to end the silence.
[attachmentid=5371] [attachmentid=5372]

First of all: Say whaaaaaaaa??????

First of all, you should know that the Catholic and Christian beliefs are very different, although they share some beliefs, they are different religions. And even then, not all Christians believe in the same thing. Whether the difference of what they believe in be great or little, not all Christians believe in the same thing, and much of the time, it's normally small things. For instance: I believe that when Jesus died on the cross, there were not 2 others that died with him, but 4, and that there is biblical evidence to back this up. However, this is an arguable statement that doesn't change the outcome of the events of the Bible, but I do believe something that many other Christians may not believe in, and it doesn't change the fundamental Christian beliefs, because if Christians don't agree on the same basics, then I doubt it would really be considered as Christianity.

This is what you should know on what the Bible says on how to get to heaven. The Bible says to 1. Admit that you're a sinner. 2. Ask for forgiveness, or repent. 3. Ask Jesus to come into your heart. This is what it basically means to get Saved as Christians call it. This is why Jesus died on the cross, because if you got to Heaven by good works, Jesus' innocent and perfect blood would have no meaning to it. There's a lot more to this, but this is the basics.

So, God promises you that if you say this prayer and truly mean it, and you'll know if you meant it, that you will go to Heaven no matter what. No matter what your future it, or what you past was. You will go to Heaven anyway. Heck, even a Serial Killer could get to heaven if he meant the prayer.

Now to somehow tie this in with homosexuality. Homosexuals have sinned, but if they say the prayer they will go to Heaven either way, whether they want to change or not. But if you say the prayer, then you should want to change and not do the sins of the world or what the world has to offer. Does that mean you won't sin? No. I still lie, steal, get angry, sometimes hate, disrespect my parents and other things all the time. Christians are nowhere near perfect. But, you should want to change. So if you're a homosexual, you would want to change and be "Straight". If you don't, then that's ok, but it would be nice if you did. The homosexual would just have to pray to be changed, but if he doesn't, then once again, that's ok, but he would probably want to or try to. There have been people who were just completely homosexual that though they couldn't be changed but knew Jesus as their savior and were able to become straight, but if they were still a homosexual, they wouldn't go to hell anyway. Do you kind of get my point now?

This is what my religion teaches, anyway, and this is what I truly believe in.

I think I'll follow ME's suit and give another perspective on the discussion that is not my own.

Homosexuality from the point of view of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon) as preached lovingly told to me by my older sister.

In all areas of life, the church promotes what is considered to be healthy living. Everything from the basics of eating healthy and avoiding stimulants, to encouraging what is considered to be the ideally healthy family structure. Within the ideally healthy family structure, for example, premarital sex is taboo; it has to do with the philosophy of sex being a tool of creation, one of the greatest powers endowed to a woman and man by God, and it should only be experienced within a steady sacred union of marriage because of it's reproductive nature, to encourage the safe secure established family dynamics should a child occur.

Homosexual relationships do not promote this family structure. Homosexual sex is unnatural, not productive, and it is given as argument that the ideal situation for a child to grow up in is with a man and a woman as parents, so they may have a varied understanding firsthand of natural human interaction. Granted, this means there is hypocrisy in this policy, citing the exceptions of divorce (discouraged), death, and other circumstances leading to single parenting, or unconventional parenting. In this situation, it is understood that not all families are going to be ideal, but it is best to try to work up to this ideal by pulling together as a community and providing the best care and secure mentorship for a growing child. Homosexual relationships are not natural, and thus, if a homosexual couple adopts, this confuses the child's mindset on the world.

It is also accepted that homosexuality is a natural urge that an individual is born with. However, as such, that does not excuse the deviance from God's standards performed in homosexual acts. They may have been born that way, but so are many alcoholics. Science suggests that many sufferers of alcoholism were born with the biological predisposition to it. However, even if it is difficult, a life of alcoholism is a sinful one, and the sufferer must try to endure his problems to fulfill the more healthy life that God intended for him. God gives challenges to all people, but he still wants us to live a healthy productive and loving life. God loves the homosexuals and the alcoholics, just as he loves all of his children, but their lifestyles are not compatable with his plan for life on earth.


</Mormon POV>

(PS- I don't want to hear any jokes about 'Three wives is unhealthy too, hyuk hyuk'. That's an irrelevant stereotype, the origins of which we can discuss elsewhere, but in this context it would be a cheap cop-out of an argument. Thank you!)

As long as the human population is not at risk, I'm fine with Homosexuals.

I'm not sure how what you said is any different from what I said. You simply said it in a more blatantly spiritual than academic way. They both boil down to the same thing- all homosexuals can be saved if they want to, and if they want to they'll show this by believing in God and respecting his teachings by trying to live a straight or chaste life.

Also, you're obviously arguing from a Catholic point of view. No other Christian sect believes in complete salvation.
And, they're not different religions, they're just different sects of the same religion.


Oh, i've been abbreviated!

And I completely agree with your sister.
*shocker*

She's completely correct, in that she is not wrong. However... you can't say that she's right, either. This point of view is perfectly legitimate, and might even be statistically correct. However, this argument really does not consider whether those views are correct, important, or complete bullshit. This argument should be more focused on the general attitude of society as a whole toward homosexuality: what should it be?
Unquestionably, every person is guaranteed by the Constitution to have the same rights as every other person. If one person is allowed to get married, another person should be allowed to get married. The United States has often prided itself on not disstinguishing between gender for voting rights, working rights, amount of taxation, etc. There is no reason why, because of either Mormon or Catholic (or any other) doctrine we should change our government to be gender specific on various issues.

reminder: marriage is not a religious issue. Marraige is a contract between two people that allows them to take care of children together, pay less taxes, and take care of each other (for example, give medical permission for operations). If a couple loves each other, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to marry, no matter what their gender... and, why institutions like the Catholic church can't support the union of two people.

Anyway, I think I rambled and perhaps got a teensy bit off topic.


Kid, that's not going to happen. Ever. We'll all die at once, or multiply until we kill ourselves, but too little population is never going to be a problem.

*checks age to see if use of 'kid' was appropriate...
ARE YOU SERIOUS? YOU'RE SIX?
somehow I seriously doubt that...

I'm basically looking at the "No other Christian sect believes in complete salvation." Well, I do, and so does my whole church, and many other churches. No sin is great enough to damn you to hell if you have been saved, because if there was, then God would be lying to you. When you're saved, you're saved now and forever. No matter if you commit suicide, murder, or anything else. You'll still go to Heaven, which is one of the great things about this religion. Because if there was a sin that was great enough to damn you to hell after you've been saved, then Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, for every sin would be a lie. This isn't no Catholic belief, but purely Christian. And, if you don't go to church regularly, then don't say stuff like "you're obviously arguing from a Catholic point of view." How would you even know that? I'm not arguing from a Catholic's view, or maybe not even a Christian's view, but the Bible's view.

Also, I have something on Gay Marriage I'll put up a little later.

(not quoting b/c it makes a post inordinately long, see here)

FMS, please explain what point of view you are coming from, and which sect of Christianity you belong to. As far as I know, there is no other sect but for Catholicism that believes in complete salvation without good works.

Incidentally, nowhere in the bible does it say that 'by saying x hail marys, you are absolved of a sin.'

Perhpas you're Eastern Orthodox? Or maybe you're evangelical..? That's probably it. However, the evangelic system of belief doesn't count as a sect as it's not truly organized religion. It's more groups of Christians who worship together without a real overarching spiritual leader.

Anyways, that's absurdly off topic. I'd love to hear what you have to say about why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry.

Boy, did I ever click on the wrong forum! Geez! Ok, ok... well, now that I'm here, I may as well say what I have on my mind... here's where it gets all philosophical... it doesn't - nor should it - matter to anyone about anything regarding your religion. Whether or not you believe that by being a member of a specific church and being "saved" by that church grants you a free pass to heaven is your own faith - that's what faith is, after all: believing in something that can't be proven. So maybe what I'm trying to say is that whether or not you approve of homosexuality should have absolutley nothing to do with what your religion believes - rather, what do youbelieve? Now, not that it matters, but I know some people get all "fired up," so I'll say it for my own sanity, I am not an aetheist. If you went "by the Bible," or "by the book," my religion generally looks down upon homosexuality. But you know what? That's not me! I have no problem with it! Have any of you ever seen a movie called Dogma? No matter what religion you are, you should watch it; among other things, it brings up this point, which I find very, very true:
Mankind does not need to have organized religion. Each man should worship on his own terms, and perhaps with others, but not in large structured groups the way that we currently do. That's because no two people believe exactly the same things. If we keep up with this whole "denomination" bit, there will eventually be a religion for every person due to so many people breaking off from their churches and doing their own thing.

Sorry if you don't like my views - I'm a very open-minded person. But then again, if you're not, how else are you going to survive in this world? The answer? You're not. You don't have to agree with Darwin to see some of the truths in evolution - and that doesn't necessarily have to be from a physical standpoint, either - I'm talking about a mental adaptation. Boy, did I ever just ramble there! Anyway, no one should get all pissy, because I'm not picking on anyone here! (at least intnetionally the way some of you have been...) I'm just asking that you think about some of what I talked about... it's not a sin to have a mind of your own, let's just put it that way. And besides - homosexuality isn't a choice. Just ask someone who really is gay!

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Religion does matter about what you believe in, especially this matter. God calls homosexuality an abomination. A disgrace. You get the point. So, if you're a Bible believer, then wouldn't you believe in what God tells you? I mean, sometimes I thought that being gay was ok, but then I said no, no way, because God says no, and after researching a bit I found that it is wrong, and it is mostly because of my religion and much of myself.

Of course the evolutionist wouldn't matter for their religion. Evolution teaches in whatever you want to believe in, so of course every evolutionist would be able to believe in whatever they wanted to. Then it wouldn't matter what they believe in because they don't believe in what a Bible believer would believe in, so it's all up to what they think.

And, homosexuality is a choice. They're the ones who decided to step out of that box and marry another person of their same gender. They chose to go out of the box and become a homosexual. If they really wanted to, they probably could change their thinking. And I don't believe it is something you acquire from birth. Show me the gene that determines whether or not you like men or women.

I can't show you a gene but I can explain (sadly no sock puppets will be used )

First off you have to know that male and female brains are diffrent.This has been well established by both scientists and stand up comics.

Now then;
In the Womb we all start out female, hence why males have nipples despite ther lack of use. As the genetics stablise our gender is decided. We either stay Female or mutate into males.
In some cases (like one in a million) you become both genders or a hermaphrodite. In other cases it is now belived the brain might not fully change to male, in the case of gays, or start to change then stop in the case of Lesbians.

That my little relligous zealot is how homosexuality is first implanted into people. Naturaly there are other factors like upbrining but biological/neurological foundation is a heavy influence.

Strangely enough, I missed popo's sense of humor...

Well, that is interesting, but it remains a theory until it has been proven, but I guess it is a possibility, although I believe that possibility to be small.

I still think that you can change a gay person, though.

Have you ever worn two different fabrics at once?

Have you ever eaten shrimp?

Do you lock women away from human contact when they get their period?

Ofcourse you can, just like you can "cure" Phobias. The question is "Why should you?"



I have previously mentioned that several homosexuals and transvestites have had their brains disected and compared to "normal" male and female brains. They tend to be more (but not wholey) feminine. They are kinda less than half way there I think.

Im Bisexual, but barely because im realy picky with girls, but you know what, I can't help it. I was born that way, so I have no idea why people hate gay people so much its not like we killed half their parents in some tragic life changing thing or something. If someones gay, get over it, nothing big.

Phobias aren't inborn.

I know phobias aren't inborn but what I failed to explain is that using certain methods (e.g:Hypnosis) you can change peoples behaiviour.

brains and other organs are considerably variable per individual.

If there were to be some study, I'd use some long term studies measuring of different hormone levels at birth, pre-puberty, puberty, and the age of 18 and 21.

i dont believe for a second that real homosexuals (not bi-curious idiots) can be "converted" to being straight. the thing is that in modern society, people tend to marry who they are in love with, regardless of what gender; the christian bible never mentions love as a basis for a marriage.

Interesting... converting gays..
Owkay, if you can convert a gay person into being straight. You could also covert straight people into being gay, right? So in that light, Fullmetal Shrimp, if I fiddle around with your brains long enough, you would be gay.
I don't think gays can be converted, just like straight people can't.

Never underestimate Hypnosis...
It wouldn't make you actually strait more than subdue your natural instincts. You'ld never get the person to fully embrace the new sexuality but if you worked hard you could get some kind of result ... possibly.

I don't think it's something that should be considered but like anything else it's a possibility.

It is a possibility that with hypnosis some changes could be made to subdue the person's natural instincts, but I personally don't think that would be morally correct. All these people talk about how gayness in 'unnatural' and should therefore be discouraged, but here you're saying what they are NATURALLY should be changed, and that's what I would call unnatural...

I also don't think it matters what religion you are a part of, because even though it says in the bible "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence" (Leviticus, 18.22), and I'm Jewish, I think that's just because at that point in time, when they were writing the bible, they needed more people, and they would get more people if there were more heterosexual people, or if all the people acted heterosexual. So, really, it all depends on how you read the text. IT IS NOT A LITERAL WORK! There is room for interpretation in everything.

Since we don't have any particular need for more people at the moment, I see no reason to object to it.

Quid just pointed this out to me and I simply couldn't resist.

i'm glad to hear that I can still get into heaven after killing all of that cereal...

XD That was the theme of my halloween costume a couple years back. (I should find those pictures...)

Anywho...

Yeah, about the 'whether or not it can be changed' issue. I think that just as we were talking about preferences often being near the middle of a 'scale', I believe 'change' or at least 'accomodation' is possible for some people. Human emotion is a very complex creature, and people bend to circumstance, but not so much in a way of conversion as people are thinking it. It's true, there are some homosexuals who will live a lie out of shame, but that generally leads to an unhappy ungenuine life. Force and guilt trips aside, I don't doubt that it's possible for a great many people to develop attractions to their unpreffered sex, or even just have romantic feelings for them.

It's not as uncommon as thought... male manatees have recreational sex with each other... kind of like the greeks, moving on to reproduce out of need with females.

Oh it's totaly morally wrong. I'm just pointing out thats it's possible. I hate the idea but just becase I hate it doesn't make it any less possible.
It's possible to hyponotise almost all of an Ethnic minority to be slaves for another but we wil hopefuly never attepmt such an act.



Whie that sounds bad for females who's role back then seem's like "Breeder" it is true that the Greeks viewed homosexuality as very manly.
I coud point out that manatees are endangured but I'd just spell it wrong and ignor the reasons why they are. Quite a few species have shown homosexuas on an individual scale (that is that only some engage in homosexual acts).
Certainly there have been records of Gay horses, Bears and some kinda Dolphin (which involved icky acts with the blow hole if some accounts are to be belived) so we can't say homosexuality is un-natural.

First I just have to say that I ALWAYS wanted to know that. My life is now complete.

I agree, if in need, most people would probably make do. But talking about 'changing' people just because YOU don't like it (the 'you' is not directed at any specific person, but meant in general) isn't right. If that's how someone is, they shouldn't have to change just so they don't bother a few people; if they want to do something like that, it should only involve them, it has nothing to do with anyone else. Especially in the case of lawful marriage...

This "convert gay people to straight people" reminds me of a Queer as Folk ep, were this character "Emmet" thought he had aids, so ones he find out he didn't, he sword(sp?) to god that he will never had sex with men again, so one day he meet a guy that told him that there was a group called "See the light" and this group could change his life. This people were gay before, they all married or start to date woman/men so they could be "normal" again. Here his that clip .But I don't agree on what he tells Emmet. But I do agree on that if you are gay, you shouldn't change, coz you are what you are.

damn monsterenvy...nice burn =D

for people of our generation now, i think itx ok... homos are still normal people... just that they have different interests - i mean each of us have different interests right? hehez.. i think homosexuality is acceptable, i've heard of then in western countries...
anyway... these people will usually tend to convert one day ya know...

perhaps you shouldn't call them 'homos'


on another tangent:

i enjoyed the episode of samurai champloo describing homosexuality in japan.

that bastard count chocula

Could we try and stay on topic please?



1) Don't call them "homo's" as if it were a nationality.
2) Don't uuse "x" instead of "s" it's confusing for people here for whom english isn't a first language.
3) What do you mean by convert? Homosexuality isn't a religoin as far as I know.

Yup, they wake up one morning and go 'all that abuse, they were right, I was never gay at all, I shall go find myself a wife/husband.

I read that Fred Phelps thing, and I have to say...I am appaled...I couldn't believe what I was reading...I mean...I was RAISED in Catholic private schools and never once was I told that God hates fags...

Me? Personally, I think it has a lot to do with just plain ole' personal preference...some because the other sex has just pissed them off so badly....they want nothing to do with them...perhaps some -are- born with their orientation...but the question is....

What does it matter? I mean really...whether they are born with it or not...they are what they are! You know?

I personally like Homosexuals...because they are human beings and my friends...(Yeah...a lot of my friends are homsexual) So...OBVIOUSLY I have no problem with them...but there's just no reason to...if you don't like seeing a guy and a guy holding hands...guess what! DON'T LOOK! Sheesh!

*NOTE: Not directed towards anyone here. -smiles- Was directed towards stupidity infected wierdos that I've met. -nods-

My opinion is:

If you have the "libidinem" to love guys as a guy i (still) believe that it is right to......

keep your feelings as a secret inside of you and to hold on not to have sex with a guy until you die!

What the Hell!?!
You can't be serious. What if a vegitarian said: I bevlive it is right to never eat meat and you should suppress this urge untill you die.

You can't ask people to deny who they are. Thats just wrong.

I have nothing against gay people. In fact, one of my best friends is a transgendered lesbian. (Transgendered means she doesn't think of herself as either a man or a woman, really, she looks very androgynous and even had her large breasts surgically removed.)

But she is a very cool, fun person and I'm proud to be her friend.

Are you born gay? I'm not sure about that. Most characteristics that people acquire in life are a combination of genes and environment (the way they were raised, etc.). I am willing to bet that maybe some people are predisposed genetically to be homosexual, and whether or not that manifests itself depends on what happens in their life.

The reason I think this, is that my friend, her mother died in a car crash when my friend was only 5 years old. So I can't help thinking that her preference for females has been influenced by the fact that she grew up without any love from a woman--she only had her dad. Maybe it's just a coincidence though.

It's hard to say I'm sure even for scientists who study this, because even if gay people have differences in their brains, are those a cause of their homosexuality or an effect of it? For example, perhaps gay men have more "feminine" structures in their brain because they nurtured that part of themselves? Just like people who are right-handed can over time train themselves to use their left hand (if they lose their right hand), thus "waking up" parts of the brain that were previously unused.

i think that homosexuality is mainly based on your genes....
there are some 10 year old guys who already knew they were gay....
and you can't change your voice or actings so easily..........

i see the skill to evaluate "beautiful guys from normal guys" as an additional ability that GOD gave this person....

Is this a debate or can gays/lesbians/bisexuals talk here?

As for me, I'm under the infamous bi-curious category. But I digress.

I see nothing wrong with loving a member of the same sex. Half of my guys friends are gay, so I'd hope I don't have a problem on it.

Lesbians are the same way, though I admit I feel a little uncomfortable around them. If I knew more it'd be different.

well I think it's a mutifactorial trait....

that and I'm willing to bet there are some people that are "gay/lesbian/bi"
because of reasons like "It's cool" or "It makes me different"or just peer pressure in general.
Who knows...kids are stupid.

Ick, I know just what you're talking about. Guys and girls at my school are always pretending to be gay to be funny. It's not funny.

No, not to be funny...More for social acceptance is what i was hinting at.

i'm pro-homosexuality because i like yaoi i'm not homo or bi though. and i agree students should be thought about this is school.

Support the notion of homosexuality because people are still people, not because you like a certain type of drawing/writing -___-.

That website on the first page made me angry.

I myself do not see a problem with Gay relationships, or Gay marriage at that. I myself AM NOT gay but I do have friends that are. The website ticked me off because first off they were saying Sodomy was a sin. Well what if a man and a woman in a monogamous relationship, engage in sodomy? Are they too going to hell?

That site is so one sided its rediculous. They use scripture to hide behind and its stupid. Yeah I know I can't say that their interpretation is wrong, because who knows what the text truley means? But even still, how do they know who God hates. They singled out America, Sweeden and Canada. Who are they to say that?

I'm sorry but that site just made me irate. Anyways, on the matter at hands. I think if a person loves another person, regardless of sex, should be aloud to act as they please. And no I'm not saying that if an older man or woman loves a young boy or girl they should act upon it. If a man and another man or a woman and another woman want to be married to each other, then I say let them do it?

Some argue saying that marriage is the union of a man and a woman and that god created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Well who is the one that set the standards for the marriage guidelines? In ancient Rome, it was considered "an entrance to manhood" for a male to sleep with another male. Same with the Geeks. But they were considered "heathens" by many other people with religious beliefs.

So before I write a book, I'm going to say, I am for gay relationships and gay marriage and therefore we have my answer. LOL sorry for the long as response.

As far as gay marage goes. I think "all" marrage is wrong..... ;; ummm yeah got that from boondocks


BUT ITS TRUE Grrr.

love (between 2 persons of the same sex for example) can be stronger than the intention of nature (or God) that there always "must" be 2 persons in order to create life (the purpose of all living creatures)...

that's why i think that gay sex isn't right, because at the end it has no sense....
...but has the sex between these 2 persons sense if there's love between them?...

...i would say yes.......................

...but please..... name some examples where there's really platonic love between 2 gay persons....

-> i can't name one example!!!