Senefen: a very interesting site you got there!

~ Theory On The Creation Of Homunculi *spoilers* ~

Well, I just came up with this earlier..

Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Mans's" alchemicly cloning himself? He failed 6 times each time, bestowed one of his "sins" upon these failed clones. He rid himself of the final sin in Pride. Afterwards, he finally successfully cloned himself forming Hohenheim. Perhaps he had to rid himself of all sins before he could "ascend"..? Just a guess. If anybody has something to add, please do so ^^.

~ Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Man (Faher)"'s alchemicly cloning himself? ~


And Lust would be his clone...how?

Sorry, but too many holes.

Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Man's" alchemicly cloning hims elf?

One of those holes being that Pride is one of the first Homunculi created by Father

Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Man's" alchemicly cloning hims elf?

another one of those holes is that hohenheim can't be Pride. the shapes of their heads are very different

Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Man's" alchemicly cloning hims elf?

At first I thought they were things of the door that somehow where placed on a body... :s but I don't think that anymore ^^U...

Well, we're familiar with the basics of homunculi. However, there's a lot that we don't know that deserves some speculation. Father and Hohenheim discussion, too.
To recap "canon" details:
The homunculi have the Philosopher's stone as their nucleus.
The homunculi are can regenerate by using the energy in the stones to transmute(?) their new bodies/body parts out of (??)
They look like they're made out of souls. (the souls coming from their stones make up their bodies)
On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?
Gluttony is growing from Father. Does this mean that Father's bodily composition is the same as Gluttony's, eg, is made of souls (or the same elements of people)?
Homunculi can transmute(?) their bodies (Lust, her fingers, Envy, his form, Greed, his carbon, Gluttony, his stomach (doors), Pride, (?), Sloth, (?), Wrath, does something, but the way it transmutes is unclear. If anyone can actually explain what the Ultimate Eye does, i'd be enlightened)
The homunculi transmute like Father: No circle, and no clappiness or similar. Unlike father, they can only transmute in one way. Is this by choice, or the onlly way that they can use alchemy? Could they theoretically use circles?
Homunculi die when they use up all of their energy, their souls. Do they have souls? Can a homunculus be made without a sin or virtue or somesuch to give it identity?
All of the homunculi were *born* after the collapse of Xerxes. Are they all Xerxian, or were some stones made in between (for Wrath, maybe)
The stones of the Homunculi are imperfect. They can be destroyed. it stands to reason, then, that a perfect homunculus would be impossible to destroy and be much more powerful. is it possible to make a perfect stone/perfect homunculus? Has it ever been done?
Father/Hohenheim
What is there relationship?
Are they the sages?
Where did they get their powers?
Does Hohenheim have any stones?
Why does Father have the Eye in the Doors in his forehead?

Well, just some questions that I was curious about hearing opinions on!

To add another question;
What are those lines on them?Like the ones on Gluttonys shoulders?



They are made of basic human stuff.The souls are there power source but not vital for suvival(Lust had hers ripped out by Roy but managed to come back to try and kill him)
Their "true" forms come form the power of the stones.They store the extra materials within then unitll they are needed.Smae goes for their powers.



How can I turn down this question?
The Ultimate Eye as I interpet it can see all the possible out comes via quick calculation(Probability and such.Maybe calculating out comes using the laws of physics to know where items will go,how he will be able to dogde attacks without losing an advantage)How excatly he does it in such a quick time is beyond me.



I'm not sure if they are tranmsuting or just "normal" bodily manipulation(like chamealons controlling their skin colour or Firebomb beatels* fireing a super heated liquid by eating a catalyst and mixing it with another chemical)
In other words their abilities are equivlent to us wiggling our fingures.


this made me giggle.In Wales stones are slang for testies.(sorry for the imaturity)

*not sure on name but it is a real creature.

On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?
No. Father gathers around the ingredients for a human being's mind and body (with his allowence, no doubt ), then places a Philosopher's Stone as the "Soul."

Gluttony is growing from Father. Does this mean that Father's bodily composition is the same as Gluttony's, eg, is made of souls (or the same elements of people)?
No idea on that one. I actually don't think that's Guttony coming out of him, just existing inside him. I'm going to assume Greed made similar indentations while inside the Father, but revealing that would have revealed that Greed was truely alive.

Homunculi can transmute(?) their bodies (Lust, her fingers, Envy, his form, Greed, his carbon, Gluttony, his stomach (doors), Pride, (?), Sloth, (?), Wrath, does something, but the way it transmutes is unclear. If anyone can actually explain what the Ultimate Eye does, i'd be enlightened)
I don't know how Wrath transmutes, but if you want to get technical, maybe it's somehow linked with The Truth.

The homunculi transmute like Father: No circle, and no clappiness or similar. Unlike father, they can only transmute in one way. Is this by choice, or the onlly way that they can use alchemy? Could they theoretically use circles?
I think the only way they can use alchemy is in the specific way they are gifted.

Homunculi die when they use up all of their energy, their souls. Do they have souls? Can a homunculus be made without a sin or virtue or somesuch to give it identity?
Who knows? Maybe it has to do with the state of the people used for the stone. For example, let us suppose that Bradley's stone was made of the souls of a fierce warrior nation, thus making him "Wrath." Lather, rinse, repeat.

Homunculi built around the stone have numerous souls making them up, the sum total of which could be considered their soul, but no individual soul. When a Stone is put into a human, the soul of that human and the, let's call it, "Oversoul" of the Stone share the body. This is present in Ling, and so can be speculated to be true for Bradley, albeit Wrath is no doubt a harder sin to overcome that Greed.

All of the homunculi were *born* after the collapse of Xerxes. Are they all Xerxian, or were some stones made in between (for Wrath, maybe)
What? Last time I checked, Envy's Stone was the only one with ties to Xerxes. Course, I could be wrong, but...

The stones of the Homunculi are imperfect. They can be destroyed. it stands to reason, then, that a perfect homunculus would be impossible to destroy and be much more powerful. is it possible to make a perfect stone/perfect homunculus? Has it ever been done?
I'd think not. Pride was the oldest Homunculus, but then it stands to reason he is actually the least "Advanced." Gluttony was the second most recent (#6), and his Stone almost ran out. Unless Bradley has a perfect Stone, Father hasn't created one yet. If Bradley's Stone is perfect, maybe that ties in with his seemingly supernatural ability, no?

Father/Hohenheim
What is there relationship?
Are they the sages?
Where did they get their powers?
Does Hohenheim have any stones?
Why does Father have the Eye in the Doors in his forehead?
I don't know the answers to any of these, but I highly suspect they are the Sages of legend.

i think that it's just a peculiarity of their fashion sense. Envy's true form has no lines (that i saw)
On the other hand, it may have something to do with a transmutation circle, Perhaps this is how they use their powers? (never thought of that)

Actually, if you look at that frame carefully, you see that Roy rips the stone out of her, her body disintegrates, and Lust forms from the stone. You don't see her legs, and just her torso is forming (near the end of chap. 38)
It makes you wonder about equivalent exchange and that other one. Conservation of energy, was it? that what your'e transmuting has to have the same properties. i'm not sure what the properties of a soul are...

Maybe. how does it use alchemy, or transmutation, is the question.

Not sure about that one. Greed wasn't being regrown, he needed a new body b/c his old one was rebellious. This is why he needed to be put in Ling. i think it was you (though maybe it was Sensenic) who mentioned Gluttony being "recharged". That's probably closest to what it is.

Maaaybe... or maybe it was jsut the wrathful of xerxes? (see below) or maybe Father imprinted his own sins on the homunculi?

According to the "canon" timeline on the ZOMGFTA site, all of the homunculi were made after Xerxes. It seems likely that they would have been enough for more than one stone. If they weren't, more civiliazations probably would have collapsed... and we would have heard about it, I think.


I'd think not. Pride was the oldest Homunculus, but then it stands to reason he is actually the least "Advanced." Gluttony was the second most recent (#6), and his Stone almost ran out. Unless Bradley has a perfect Stone, Father hasn't created one yet. If Bradley's Stone is perfect, maybe that ties in with his seemingly supernatural ability, no?
If they were all from Xerxes, then no. Otherwise, probably.
And the "Truth" thing.. perhaps he can open the doors and see (with his eye) the true knowledge about the future and react?

Here's a deal. I'll tell you how Bradley's eye works after you tell me how Ran Fan can see the number of souls in people.

This is probably a brainless question (on my part) but do we know for sure Pride is male? I think there was a scene that showed a silhoutte that was masculine looking, was there or did I just imagine it?

Yes, it was there. Can we really tell the gender of a homunculus anyway?
'He' is the easier pronoun, in any case.
Ranfan can see the number of souls in people... because... because... BECAUSE SHE'S AWESOME. SO THERE.
But, really, that's something to think about. Maybe it has to do with rentanjutsu and the "cycles of energy" mei mentioned when healing scar? A homunculus with lots of souls would definitely have screwed up cycles.

The lines are his forehead.It's hard to see but it's there.)Same is true for true Greed.
Here's a pic.You can see the bottom point of the triangel that's also on his head band.
[attachmentid=4440]

I only just noticed it myself.

Oh, you're right! dontcha love arakawa's attention to detail...
It could be related to different aspects of the philosopher's stone... people who seek it are normally driven by a deadly sin, hm? especially greed/avarice, but the rest could work too. So, each homunculus has a power that relates to part of the power of the stone. Then, they each have a portion of the tranmutation circle that coresponds to their powers?
It does look like they could form one transmutation circle.
Father: Everyone, hold hands!
Envy: Ugh, I don't want to touch gluttony, he's icky.
The problem with that, i suppose, is that Lust is dead, and the Fuhrer doesn't have lines (that we can see, and.. hm... did ling in ultimate shield? I think so... maybe the fuhrer can *bring out* his lines. Dno.)

Brad's lines could be covred by his uniform and his black vest.(I'm not gonna be caught out by his trip into the sewers..oh no )
And yes I do like Arakawa's detail.(Especialy when Glutt's was looking at Barry(the body) and lust was sitting on him)

As for Prides gender,didn't Envy say "He's[Pride] taken to showing p at useless times"?

RanFan and Ling can sense soul(ki) because of a Martial arts technique I think.Some chinese arts have the smae ideas IIRC...

Edited post due to relevance of the manga versus anime...

Please, don't go talking about the anime here. If you don't know anything about the manga, it was better not to post. The manga and anime are very different, keep that in mind.

I don't mean to be rude but this is in the MANGA thread,therefore it's about the manga Homunclui.Due to several reasons they are very diffrent.

In the manga they live up to their names more...
Sloth is said to be lazy and dim witted
The others are pretty obvious(appart fromk pride who has yet to be properly shown)

You really need to read the Manga to know what we're talking about.I don't mean to sound snobish but it is very diffrent from the Anime.
For a start Hoenhiem didn't make the Homunc's "Father" did.
Dante doesn't exist in the Manga either.
Warth is King Brad...I could go on.
your ideas are solid if this were the anime though.(Even though I'm convinced the lines have some role other than fashion )

PS:Welcome to the forum

I have a point to add about the lines on the Sins' bodies; I think the circles at the ends of them are more important. They can be used to weaken a homunculus or turn off his powers by disrupting his regeneration cycles. Remember Wrath weakens Greed by stabbing his swords through the four circles' on his torso. He lost consciousness at that point, allowing him to be transported to Father. The swords are still stuck in the same spots when he's tied up . My guess is that they are what prevented his body from regenerating when he's later 'dissolved' in the tub of acid. So far it seems only Father and the homunculi know about this weakness, but if the Elrics' and co. found out it would be very useful in battles.
[attachmentid=4445][attachmentid=4446]

Yeah,those are the pics that got my intrest up in the first place...poor Greed

On the homunculi has souls thing, I've always said yes, even in the anime, where it's constantly contridicting itself. They act to human not to be. Sure, some are really evil, but so was Hitler, and he had a soul. (Look at the anime section for my two cents) After all, Greed was asking Al how to bind a soul to an object, how can a souless creature do that?




Apparently, they have a piece of Father's soul in him. Maybe he divided his soul into eight pieces (Or seven, depends on how you look at it) for each of his sins? (And left one piece in his body) Maybe there was a hint of good in the greedy part of Father's soul.

This is all guesswork, I don't know a thing

my two cents on Hitler: No one is actually evil, it's just how others percieve their actions. Hitler was a lunatic who actually thought that he was helping the world...(he wasn't of course, don't think i'm a neo-nazi or anything) but that's another topic altogether.

hmmm... Perhaps the homunculi are sort of like fingers and toes to father? He can't control them *directly* but they seem like extensions of his body. They can be reclaimed, and *incubated* in him, and they're obviously under his control. Greed did desert him... so i'm not sure how far that theory goes, but it's something to speculate about.
Just some more guesswork

So, Ran Fan can see souls and ki because she's awesome? Bradley must share that elemental power in some way.


You don't understand. That was not Gluttony being recharged or rebuilt inside him, it was the gluttony of the Stone existing inside him. Remember how when Ling get's Greed's stone and sees Greed as the Ultimate Sheild? Greed said it was his true form. So, while Father was holding Greed hostage in his body, I see no reason why Greed wouldn't be rummaging around. That's Gluttony in him, squirming around now, until Father can find a way to prolonge the Stone.

Interesting that you bring up Greed...because then that makes me think of how the anime sort of made a mistake then....Greed wanted the same thing in the anime....yet nothing was ever mentioned by Al or Ed...about how he wouldn't be able to do it anyway, since he didn't have a soul, because the Homunculi in the anime don't have souls.


But this is an interesting topic....I agree that they have souls, and that they are part of the Father's soul. Of course then I would want to know...why did he create them in the first place?..Is it simply for world domination or whatever?

But I can't wait to get more answers on that...

Wow... lotsa things to discuss here... With all these discussion threads going on as of late, it's getting somehow stressing U

Yes.

Not at all. The souls are the "accumulated energy" that is used to create the hommuculi's physical body, which, PS aside (and Envy's case too) is identical to that of a human being (same organs 'n stuff). They even have nerves and feel pain (which can be quite bothersome when your main strategy is to let your enemy discharge his weapon on you and then regenerate, to the despair of the other side XD "The bullets, they do nothing".)

Well... hommunculi are not "made from souls", as I said before... they are made of Flesh and Bone... It's just that the "info" on how their body is is kept in the Stone (just like the DNA in our case), and it regenerates from it anytime it's needed, as long as the Stone has enough energy (as the Stone is not only the source of the info but of the energy to rebuild it too, in this case).

As for Daddy, WTF is he... unknown for now.

What Nepharski said.

I believe that the hommunculi can only do what they know how to do "by instinct" (instinct as in knowledge that is there from birth, not learnt). In this case their instincts are the knowledge that was put into the stone (how exactly, if the power actually depends on the sin or if it was just Father's choice, no idea): how to regenerate and how to use their own power each.

Now, If they could ever learn and use alchemy freely... hey, they are intelligent beings, capable of learning on one hand...
On the other hand... Envy, at least, seems to know quite much about alchemy and yet...
I dunno what to think about.

and as for Wrath's power.... I've posted (don't remember where tho') a couple of times that I can't see how is it alchemy-related at all for now... but I have faith in arakawa sensei.

Yes. Soul = Personality, identity, sense of self, etc. They have all that. Therefore they have a soul.

A proof you have in Lingreed, who has exactly the same personality as the old Greed even if his memories were erased.

You could say they have a predominant soul (theirs), and the rest are just mere "battery power". U

No fuggin' idea.

AFAIK, they're all made from the same big stone within Father (if not Father himself), 7 "portions" with Father's sins on it... So yes, them all are from Xerxes.

As far as we know, all the stones made later in Amestris were incomplete ones, made from Ishvalans, Death Row prisoners and -yay- the alchemists themselves later XD

I believe they're perfect. Wherever the difference is, I do not know, but I think their Stones are the real thing. Or, as I mentioned before, part of it.

Lust put much emphasys on showing the PS to Roy and Havoc... and she was being all-out honest cuz she was going to kill them anyway, so... that's what makes me
believe those Stones are The Real Thing (or, again, part of it)



If we knew the answer to these, FMA would be over

Unlike "Equivalent Exchange", the other basic law of alchemy (you can only transmute water-ish things into water-ish things, etc. whatever it was called) has been utterly ignored when a PS was involved, so.... I guess we can conclude that law is wrong, no?

With a PS the process rather goes like this:

Countless human lives are sacrificed -> their souls transformed into the alchemical equivalent of "Potential Energy" which takes the form of the Stone -> Then you can use this energy to transmute it into ANYTHING.

Therefore, equivalent exchange is kept, the other one, no.

It was me!} \(^o^ )

But it was not Greed's "body" the one who turned rebellious... He chose that on his own...
That's why Father "killed" him, taking away his memories... But kept his soul alive so the Stone could be put somewhere else (that is, Ling) later and have another pawn back.
What asshole Father for some reason doesn't seem to get is that Greed's rebellion was due to his personality, so it's most probable that Lingreed will end up doing the same sooner or later... or at least, so I hope.

Ar! I have to check the Raws where ¿he? appears and I keep forgetting. Darnit!

CSakuraS said that Pride once said "Nan desutte?" (literally "What is this/that?", more or less), which is a very feminine expression (according to her, again. I just remember Riza saying it, after reading her reassignment), so...

After reading that post, my hopes for another female hommunculus have been increasing. It'd be nice, as Lust was the only she-hommunculus ( U ) so far and she's dead...

Gotta check the RAW, but I'd say, from memory, that Envy probably didn't specify Pride's gender...
In this case it's the raw what is more important, since the japanese barely use the "he/she" pronouns. More probably Envy said sth like ("that damn Pride" or koitsu/soitsu/aitsu, or "Pride no yatsu" or sth like that, all of them genderless, and quite more usual than "kare" = "he" or "kanojo" = "she").

Yeah, well, but that doesn't explain how the f*!@ can they sense "life energy"...
This is an old trick many mangas have used, and that's why it is still the only thing that annoys me a little about the Xing characters... that Arakawa would pull out such a cheap and old one on them...
But I'll admit that it has been well used.

It would be interesting if Pride turns out to be female. The Silhouette looks male to me but that probably isn't a really good indication. I think most people wouldn't be expecting Pride to be female so that would be a neat surprise (and maybe that is why Arakawa is so secretive about Pride's identity not because it is a character we already know.)

That makes me wonder how he hides those from his wife...or explains them away:

"They're birthmarks, dear."

"Old battle scars, dear. Unusually straight, geometric, battle scars."

With regard to the Sins, my favorite theory (based on nothing but that I think it's cool) is that Father wants to become "perfect" and he originally created the Sins in an attempt to "purge" himself of everything impure as part of his quest for perfection. He may have been as surprised as anyone when they took form and started walking around, talking back, and eventually rebelling

[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 4:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
They look like they're made out of souls. (the souls coming from their stones make up their bodies)
On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?
[/quote]
Not at all. The souls are the "accumulated energy" that is used to create the hommuculi's physical body, which, PS aside (and Envy's case too) is identical to that of a human being (same organs 'n stuff). They even have nerves and feel pain (which can be quite bothersome when your main strategy is to let your enemy discharge his weapon on you and then regenerate, to the despair of the other side XD "The bullets, they do nothing".)
[/quote]
So, they're made out of transmuted souls. So, why, whenever we see the stone in a homunculus, do the souls look like they're simply merging into the healthy bits of the body as well as the damaged bits?
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
All of the homunculi were *born* after the collapse of Xerxes. Are they all Xerxian, or were some stones made in between (for Wrath, maybe)
[/quote]
AFAIK, they're all made from the same big stone within Father (if not Father himself), 7 "portions" with Father's sins on it... So yes, them all are from Xerxes.

As far as we know, all the stones made later in Amestris were incomplete ones, made from Ishvalans, Death Row prisoners and -yay- the alchemists themselves later XD
[/quote]
Question- Is Cornello's stone an Amestrian stone or another stone secreted from Father? That'd help a lot in speculation about Father's nature.
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
The stones of the Homunculi are imperfect. They can be destroyed. it stands to reason, then, that a perfect homunculus would be impossible to destroy and be much more powerful. is it possible to make a perfect stone/perfect homunculus? Has it ever been done?
[/quote]
I believe they're perfect. Wherever the difference is, I do not know, but I think their Stones are the real thing. Or, as I mentioned before, part of it.

Lust put much emphasys on showing the PS to Roy and Havoc... and she was being all-out honest cuz she was going to kill them anyway, so... that's what makes me
believe those Stones are The Real Thing (or, again, part of it)
[/quote]
No. The homunculi's stones are definitely NOT perfect. A perfect stone has infinite amounts of energy, and is indestructible. Remember Cornello in the beginning? His stone was eventually used up, like Lust's, and it disintegrated in the same way. Lust's just had considerably more power in it.
Maybe father is a perfect stone/has one in him? That would explain how he can recharge gluttony again, and secrete stones- they're different bits of his soul/stone.
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
Father/Hohenheim
What is there relationship?
Are they the sages?
Where did they get their powers?
Does Hohenheim have any stones?
Why does Father have the Eye in the Doors in his forehead?
[/quote]
If we knew the answer to these, FMA would be over
[/quote]
I'm particularly curious as to whether anyone has an opinion on Hohenheim's stones (or why he doesn't have any)
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
Actually, if you look at that frame carefully, you see that Roy rips the stone out of her, her body disintegrates, and Lust forms from the stone. You don't see her legs, and just her torso is forming (near the end of chap. 38)
It makes you wonder about equivalent exchange and that other one. Conservation of energy, was it? that what your'e transmuting has to have the same properties. i'm not sure what the properties of a soul are...
[/quote]
Unlike "Equivalent Exchange", the other basic law of alchemy (you can only transmute water-ish things into water-ish things, etc. whatever it was called) has been utterly ignored when a PS was involved, so.... I guess we can conclude that law is wrong, no?

With a PS the process rather goes like this:

Countless human lives are sacrificed -> their souls transformed into the alchemical equivalent of "Potential Energy" which takes the form of the Stone -> Then you can use this energy to transmute it into ANYTHING.

Therefore, equivalent exchange is kept, the other one, no.
[/quote]
Just a thought.., in conventional science, Einstein's infamous equation E=mc squared means that all matter is energy, and it takes a lot of energy to condense into matter. Not to necessarily apply physics to the FMAverse, but if all matter is energy, and, as Envy says, souls are pure energy, then that wouldn't violate the second law at all.
it would also explain why we see so many souls getting used up when Ed opens the doors. (a body, two arms, and a leg was the passage fee to put two people through. Now, they're only putting one through (Envy and Ling aren't being transmuted, they just slip through when Truth isn't looking ) and it takes a *lot* of the Envy-tumors- a lot more than I thought would be necessary.)
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
Not sure about that one. Greed wasn't being regrown, he needed a new body b/c his old one was rebellious. This is why he needed to be put in Ling. i think it was you (though maybe it was Sensenic) who mentioned Gluttony being "recharged". That's probably closest to what it is.
[/quote]
It was me!} \(^o^ )

But it was not Greed's "body" the one who turned rebellious... He chose that on his own...
That's why Father "killed" him, taking away his memories... But kept his soul alive so the Stone could be put somewhere else (that is, Ling) later and have another pawn back.
What asshole Father for some reason doesn't seem to get is that Greed's rebellion was due to his personality, so it's most probable that Lingreed will end up doing the same sooner or later... or at least, so I hope.
[/quote]
I think that Greed's memories are tied to his body. Remember, we've said that homunculi have souls. Then, they have bodies. We've also been told that what stores the memories is the mind. (it also ties the soul to the body). Since homunculi can have their souls transplanted, they would need to have a new mind to tie themselves the body (possibly the sin?) and the new mind would begin to store new memories.
On another note: Is it just my browser, or does anyone have an idea why my quote tags aren't working?

Probably the former. I don't see anything wrong with your quote tags.

@Redthorn- good question. xD

Try leaving more space between each quote and response.

Because we don't.
NO, RLY

U

I don't know, but I see those 2 cases different from Envy's (which is not the most human-looking hommunculus either), in the sense that there's no movement there. They look like veins or whatever, as if the Stone was in place of the heart (makes sense if it's "their nucleus"). Whereas in Envy's case, the souls were constantly oozing out and taking form because it's part of "his" original look, for whatever reason.

I can't tell for sure, but that their bodies around the PS are of flesh and bone, this I'm certain. And that these flesh and bones are transmuted from the inside, from the PS, too.


Answer - I believe it's one of them many a Ishvalans/death row prisoners/researchers-made stones.

I know. I considered this, and I have said many times that we still don't know the difference between a complete and an incomplete stone, which it could have perfectly been, in its origins, just the amount of energy it possessed: if it had enough energy to last more than a human lifespan, even if the human used it so many times, maybe that was called "perfect", cuz from the humans' point of view it lasted "forever" or at least much more than long enough. Maybe there doesn't exist other difference. How do you know the Perfect Everlasting Philosopher's Stone exists?

Another possibility is that the hommunculi's Stones are parts/portions of the Theoretically Perfect one (Father? Inside him? Go figure) and therefore, not "perfect" by definition, but definitely not the same as Cornello's or Marcoh's. Why do I say this?
Again, because I believe that Lust wasn't lying, and she showed it to Havoc and Roy as a kind of "last wish" gift... It was a "big" scene, if you know what I mean... It had this "The first appearance of the PS in the manga" feeling, or at least that's the impression I got from it.
This and the fact that there's a significant difference on how Marcoh's stone was made (put them prisoners and Ishvalans in the circle in the 5th lab and transmute) and how the hommunculi's Stone/s was/were (Transmute a whole country overnight), tell me that there IS a significant diference between them... Even if it's only the amount of souls/energy... But then we get back to "what's the difference between an incomplete and a complete stone?"

I dunno, but my opinion still hasn't changed: Lust's Stone was It, or at least, a Piece of It.

Uh... cut this phrase before writing the whole stuff and didn't read it till later.... U
Yeah, in this possibility, at least, we agree

That's what I thought, at first, but it's not necessarily like that...

Or else, Lust would have "died" (as in, lost all of her memories, like ol' Greed) when she was completely disintegrated (when Roy took the Stone from the body). That scene goes to show that the memories are stored not only in the mind (or, if you prefer, the brain) but in the Stone too (which is the only thing that lasted of Lust that time).
And apparently Father can delete them at will, but he HAS to do it on purpose... it seems the hommunculi, as long as they keep their Stone, they keep their memories "by default"

It's quite clear by now that the Stone not only keeps (or can keep) souls (as energy and as a personality/soul for the homunculus), but knowledge too (memories and the knowledge to do circle-less transmutations and/or transmutations you don't know much of, as in Marcoh, Cornello, or even Roy, when he tried to cure Havoc before getting st4bb3d)

Nah... Just a little bug, happens to me all the time... for example, when writing that very same post you replied to U

It happens when you put too many quote tags (and I'm a quote-puzzle wall-poster, therefore... ). Solution? Why yes, but you cannot apply it anymore now:
1- When it happens, edit the post and cut the 2nd half (more or less)
2- repost it and make sure it's fine now (else you have to cut more text. I'd advise you to paste in wordpad temporarily, otherwise it can be vary painful. talking from experience, here x_x).
3- Add a new reply, and paste there the rest of the text. Add post.
4- Magic!
Warning: If you edit, as it'll be all united in one post again, you'll screw it up, so you'll have to repeat the process (edit what you had to, cut, add reply, paste) U

In this case, there are already replies after you, so no can do. But you can try again anytime.

Oh, he definitely has stones -- that where Ed and Al came from, after all

Oh, you mean PHILOSOPHER'S stones! We simply don't know if he has any or not. He carries that briefcase everywhere he goes, even hiking into the mountains, so who knows what's inside there? And if he has a Philosopher's Stone nucleus we've had no opportunity to see it.

Unfortunately, the way the "bandits shoot Hoho a dozen times, Hoho looks sad" scene played out in chapter 46, we can't see whether Hoho bounced the bullets completely, or whether they went into/through him and it just didn't bother him. There are holes in his clothes but no sign of blood, and the homunculi do bleed when injured. So whatever he is, he's not a "standard" homunculus. We haven't had any opportunity to see if he has a homunculus Ouroborous tattoo, either.



We don't. But I'm not sure at this point if it matters all that much. The "stone" the Elrics wanted was one that would let them get their bodies back and avoid paying any more passage fee. The "imperfect" stones are good enough for that, if Ed can figure out the mechanics of the transmutation, and if the boys can steel themselves to use the captive souls for their own purposes.

One irony here is that Ed called Cornello's stone a "fake", when in fact it wasn't completely fake, it just didn't have a very large "charge" on it, so when Cornello fought Ed he blew out all the stone's power and it disintegrated. If Ed had been a more stealthy type and had stolen the ring off Cornello's bedstand or something, the Elrics might still have been able to make use of it. (No telling if there would have been enough energy in there for them to do what they need to do, but there might have been.)

Which chapter does Pride "show" up in anyway? I've been trying to find it again, seems like it's around the Al getting kidnapped thing. I think it would be a cool twist if Pride turned up to be female. Have to wait and see I guess.

Someone mentioned lines on Envy's forehead in his true form but I didn't notice any. To me it looked like his hair falling over his "face." You can see it better in the other panels where he's got long bangs going down over his face.

We hear Pride's voice in 39 when (s)he chews out Envy, then we see his/her silhouette in 47. My guess is that Pride is male, because I think all the Sins are "Father's Sins", so they're all male like he originally was, except for his Lust, which is female (because he was straight, I suppose.) But the silhouette isn't definitive.



You can see the outline of Envy's "homunculi stripes" on his forehead in this shot, from issue 53.

Ah okay, I was looking at the black lines running over his eyes that's his hair. I was thinking of Greed's Ultimate Shield form which has the black lines running from the tops of the eyes (at least that's what I remember in my head).

I think Lust is female because the sin of Lust has always been classically/traditionally personified as a woman. Maybe Father just didn't want to buck tradition. It sure would be a twist and a half though if Pride turned out to be female.

You can se some of thee facial lines here:[attachmentid=4644]
you can see the body lines here[attachmentid=4645]
And finaly:[attachmentid=4646]

the more I try and dissmis them as just a nice bit of detail the more I'm convinced they have some vauge purpose...

Vague?

You read antimony's post, so you know what they did to Greed... and yet you say "a vague purpose"? Funny...

Oop's.Those slipped my mind.I only just woke up when I posted that.Damn brain fog.

Pride-o-Gender, check'd!

Lessee, on Pride being a woman:
- It says "Nandesutte?", which according to CSakuraS is a very feminine expression.
- It also uses the "-nasai" form (chapter 39: "Damarinasai"), which, correct me if I'm wrong, is usually more used by women than men.
- It speaks "formally" (as in, "desu" instead of "da", "masu" form for the verbs...), which is also, I believe, more woman-like than man-like...
- Oh, also, related to the previous one, it uses "deshou?" instead of "darou?"... more formal and more usual in women too, AFAIK.

On the other hand:
- It uses "kimi" for "you"... As far as I know, I think it is a rather masculine word... goes with "boku", I'd say, dunno if it can be used by women too. (well, of course it can, I mean, rather, if it is also used by women, if rarely)
- It uses "wareware" for "us" (hommunculi), it sounds masculine to me too, but I don't know either...

Neutral, but maybe important:
- Refers to Father as "chichi ue", which, again AFAIK, is an archaic and/or noble way to refer to one's family, the father in this case (Armstrong also does this). Might it give a clue on its gender, tho'?

and I think that's all.
If anyone of you Jap-speaking people (Tombow, CSakuraS, Shirokage, or whoever else) happen to read this, leave a comment on it. Thx!

@Sensenic- I don't know that much about Japanese title ettiquette, but it looks like Pride is always trying to use the politest form possible. Makes sense- the ancient nobility had a lot of pride. So, it's probably not too much of an indication of his gender. I think Envy does refer to pride as "he" at one point (at least in the scanlation) so we can just assume he's male, I suppose.
Re: Homunculi lines
They're pretty obviously necessary to the function of a homunculus. When Greed's holes are "blocked," he can't move or shield or anything. I wonder if they're similar to the "chakra holes" in Naruto? They could be channels to move the PS or conduits for a transmutation/regeneration to occur, and when they're blocked on the outside, the PS and energy is useless inside the body. Incidentally, Lust's lines run to her fingers (her lances) and Greed's are on his chest, which is where his shield spreads from... however, that doesn't seem to work as well with Gluttony's and Envy's lines.

S/he could be quite more polite... And "kimi" is rather informal...

And on Envy, he makes no reference to Pride's gender. That, I also checked, but forgot to include it.

Uh-huh.... Sth along the lines I believe too... But we don't know.... And, as someone mentioned already (sorry, dun remember who you are) what about Wrath? Where would his lines be? Does he have them, or only "full homunculi" do?

So many misteries...

Not only full homunculi- i'm pretty sure ling had them when he was using the shield. Remember, all we've seen of wrath is his face, and maybe his forearms. I think that it's likely that he'll have his lines on his chest and back or something, like in the anime. how he would hide this from his wife is a completely different story...Or, maybe, the lines would only show up on a human-based homunculus when he's using the PS? they're integral to homunculi, but not necessarily those in a human shell.
Another question about human homunculi- would the PS be in the bloodstream, or integrate itself into the heart like the other homunculi? we've never seen a human homunculus even injured, I think, so it's possible that their blood would have PS properties- it's where the stone went in, after all.

How do you mean human homunculus?

A human who has a Liquid stone put in is blood rather than a Homunculus thats made from the traditonal way.

Another thing- I used to think that the ouroboros was above the stone- when mustang grabbed Lust's, it was right below her ouroboros. However, Gluttony's is also in the center of his body. So, the question remains, do the ouroboros tattoos signify anything other than that it's a homunculus? They are circular tattoos... transmutation? i doubt that they'll have the same function as the anime, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was something.

It might have something to do with their powers or the nature of the sin.

^^Yes, Lust's is pretty obvious, and Gluttony.... Greed is, too (taking w/ hands) but i have no idea about why Sloth's would be on his shoulder, or Envy's on his thigh, or Wrath's on his eye.

Well, the form that Envy takes on isn't his actual form, so I don't think it matters that his tattoo is on his thigh. I'm guessing that he only has the tattoo in that form because he takes pride in the fact that he's a homunculus.

Sloth's, I dunno, we haven't seen much of him anyway.

Wrath's probably has something to do with his power.

(Oh, I thought that this thread was very, very dead...)

I think that his tattoo is mandatory... I believe that he has it on his thigh in his true form, too, though I have nothing to back that up.

Something to note: Both Greed!Ling and Wrath have wierd stuff going on with their eyes. I think that one of Ling's was purple or something, and Wrath's goes 'zam!' which is odd enough, but also has a tattoo on it.

So, what's up with human homunculi and eyes? Thoughts?