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Carrion
Maybe Riza became an Ishvalan spy before she joined the military. The she targeted Roy. Roy would be targeted because of his strength. And as someone said, the scene where riza is targeting him, it's his flashback.
*Yukiko
The homunculi can transmute themselves without any type of action because of the philosopher's stone within them (remember cornello didn't have to do anything to transmute stuff with the fake stone). I also think that Father is literally composed of at least the liquid of the philosopher's stone, which is why he needs the pipes to maintain himself. it would also explain how he needs no motion whatsoever to perform alchemy, and if he contained such power within him and knew the true secrets of how alchemy works, then it wouldn't be that hard to stop others from being able to use alchemy, right?

QUOTE
The question is whether creating a homunculus counts as human transmutation. I've also never been quite clear on if it's impossible to make something with human form, or just to create life.


I don't think it's impossible to create life with alchemy, it's just impossible to REcreate a life that was lost. Just as what Ed and Al transmutted didn't turn out to be their mother, but for at least a short time it was living.

QUOTE
Also, if father's so all-powerful, why does he even need homunculi?


Even though father is all-powerful, I think he has the homunculi because there's so much work to be done and so many people to watch over... it would be incredibly hard for one being to do all the work they've done.

(Sorry if I did the quote thing wrong... never did it before)

Oh, and about this:

QUOTE
@yukiko: what stone?? in the manga they didn't use any stone


I just double checked the manga... when they first visit Marcoh (chapter 8), he says that the inperfect stone was used secretly during the civil war... That's probably why we havn't seen it being used yet.
Edward Elric! Duh! Whoo hoo!
Yayyyyyyyyyyy! Capter 57! I am probley as excited as I was when waiting for chap. 54! Well No, not really, actully. Not much of a cliff hanger if you ask me. Well, Yea. it was. okay, but no action in the ending of chap 56.
MonsterEnvy
QUOTE
Father is literally composed of at least the liquid of the philosopher's stone, which is why he needs the pipes to maintain himself.


Hohenheim gets along fine without pipes, and i think that we can assume that they're the same type of thing. What did strike me was the idea that Father is made of stone material-souls. When he secretes a stone, it looks like his third eye is the same thing as what's behind the Doors. Is it possible that he's actually pulling dead souls through the doors? More likely, he has his own sort of doors where he stores stones. It's possible that both father and hohenheim are manifestations of Truth, though in two forms, and draw their power from souls behind the doors who lived or died in a certain way. It's obvious that when a person dies he releases energy, in the form of a soul, which can be harnessed for philosopher's stones and other alchemy. The Doors, then, must have huge reserves of energy for transmutation behind them- if one can get them out. If Father and Hohenheim can tap into even a fraction of these souls as aspects of Truth, the doorkeeper, it would definitely explain their power. In addition, if Father can only tap into a certain type of energy, say, that of a soul that died violently, his mass murder of Xerxes and the planned one in Amestris suddenly make a lot more sense.

It's a bit of a leap, but it seems to make sense.
Toby-Chan
So, the gluttony developing inside Father thing... totally gives us FMA canon MPREG, right?

I was thinking perhaps since it looks like a more advanced version of Roy's flame pattern, perhaps her being near Roy acts as a catalyst for his alchemy? (/Lam0rrz theory)
Jedi28
I was looking at chapter 34 again and I noticed that Riza's sleeve and glove actually looked like the sleeve and glove of her military uniform. Maybe she was a brand new soldier, freaked out over the war (like Armstrong did) and was going to turn against the soldiers but was somehow stopped by Mustang?

Also, can't remember, but do we ever find out why MUSTANG is an important sacrifice? Lust says it in chapter 34 and then I think it's mentioned one or two other times about them not being allowed to kill Roy or having to protect Roy. I get why the brothers are supposed to be some kind of sacrifice, buy why Roy?
MonsterEnvy
it's because mustang is a powerful alchemist. They don't have enough alchemists who have actually opened the doors to sacrifice, so they need to get new ones. Mustang has the "nerve" and skill to open the doors, and could be forced to if someone he loves dies (riza?) This makes him a good sacrifice "candidate". That's the difference between confirmed and unconfirmed sacrifices. There are only four confirmed that we know of (izumi, ed, al, and marcoh) and one unconfirmed (mustang). There are probably many more unconfirmed sacrifices that we simply haven't met or heard the homunculi refer to. Candidates as powerful as Roy are almost as prrecious as those already confirmed.

Also, I think that the last thing a "freaked out" soldier would do is suddenly turn to the losing side, hide under a camouflage blanket a good distance away from any protection, and carefully target her commander.
KittyK
Hi...

In that FB, Hawkeye may have been using her scope to watch over Roy, not target him to shoot. After all, if her intent was to kill, he'd almost surely have died, with that shot. Roy's text bubble there seems ominious to pair with that panel, but i can't be sure that it doesn't refer to shooting someone who might be a threat. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Jedi28
QUOTE(KittyK @ Mar 10 2006, 06:08 PM) [snapback]361393[/snapback]

Hi...

In that FB, Hawkeye may have been using her scope to watch over Roy, not target him to shoot. After all, if her intent was to kill, he'd almost surely have died, with that shot. Roy's text bubble there seems ominious to pair with that panel, but i can't be sure that it doesn't refer to shooting someone who might be a threat. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


That's possible. She was in a sniper position, she could have just been providing cover for Mustang. She could have been siting on him just to get his position fixed so she would approximately where he was in an emergency and wouldn't shoot him.
Sensenic
QUOTE(Animeoldtimer @ Mar 10 2006, 09:41 PM) [snapback]361314[/snapback]

Thanks Reika. smile.gif I can find it now that I have some idea.

Here

Boy, when I put it on the "chapter search" thread the other day, I'd never thought it'd be so "needed"...

Comes in handy!
Antimony
I just got done reading the ZOMG scanlation a little while ago. The front cover has Ed on it looking really manly and tough, but who is that guy behind him? He looks an awful lot like Havoc with the blond hair and the cigarette, but heís got this bizarre monster arm! Could he be from a short story by Arakawa that is also in this issue of Shonen Gangan? Or what if Ö what if this means Havoc really IS Pride?!? rolleyes.gif

It was funny how when Ran Fan and Mei were arguing they were doing it in their own language and poor Al had no idea what was going on! Good thing Knox was there, or they would have killed themselves trying to kill each other! I think the Xing cast will take a backseat for a bit since everything is pointing toward an Ishbal flashback from Marcoh and Knox, and possibly from Scar and Riza as well.

But thatís way too much information to explain in just one chapter. I think Arakawa would stretch it out into multiple chapters like she did with Elric brothers backstory. (Chapters 21-24 were all one long flashback!) Iím looking forward to seeing Kimbley again in Scarís memories, and maybe his brother and Winryís parents. We could also see Roy and Hughes fighting together again biggrin.gif and find out why Rizaís alchemic tattoo is so important.
Reika
@jedi28: I agree with you.
Reika
@animeoldtimer: no problem ^_~
Sensenic
Wow... I want to make so many comments that I just... can't... I guess I'll just say a couple of things and wait for the waters to calm down... happy.gifU

@Kirara: Hey, I've taken a look... and Dr. Knox's wife DOES look a lot like Bradley's! Uh-oh...
Add on: Looked at Volume 8, and she doesn't. Forget that tongue.gif. But she still sounds familiar...

@*Yukiko: Nice one! A Rentanjutsu symbol to cancel out Mustang's alchemy... There's one problem tho': so far Alchemy circles haven't worked like "objects", talismans or whatever that allow the carrier to do alchemy.... The person's gotta have the knowledge to use them (Alchemy is about understanding, deconstructing and reconstructing whatsoever)... Ed was imitating Scar's alchemy when he neutralised his attack... But it's a good theory, and it goes well with mine, so, yeah! ( ^_<)-b

Oh, BTW, *Yukiko and MonsterEnvythey did not use stones in Ishvar in the manga. Incomplete Stones were made from the captured Ishval prisoners, afterwards. Ts not the same.
Add on: ooops so they were used. I stand corrected happy.gifU

@GS4LIFE: Be strong, my friend and fellow Ranfanfan... I'm sure automail!Ranfan will be even cooler and hotter than she is now. ( >.<)-b

@MonsterEnvy: I believe Father is not rebuilding Gluttony, but "reloading" his Stone with more lives/souls/energy. That'd be why Gluttony is slowly trying to regenerate (cuz he's hungry and wants to eat XD)... So this is not HT, this is soul/energy transfer, and the hommunculus is the one who is regenerating the body, as per their usual system.
Anyway, Father and the hommunculi's powers, while Alchemy, are yet too misterious indeed...
And Father is definitely not all-powerful. If he was all-powerful, whatever he's doing with Amestris, he would've done it already, and away with it. And he wouldn't have failed when recreating the Doors of truth in Gluttony. Therefore, he's "just" uber-powerful.
As for Human sacrifices, it's not exactly as you put it...
Confirmed Human Sacrifice: Ed and Al (That we know of, that is).
Human Sacrifice Candidates: Mustang, Marcoh (he used a circle against Lust, so he hasn't opened the Gates), Armstrong (well, he knew the same as Hughes and yet he was left alive. For some reason, no? wink.gif ) and Izumi Curtis (she is a HS, but Bradley couldn't get to confirm it, so for them she's still just a Candidate).

@Kitty K. and Jedi28: Yeah, I thought too that Riza could've been just providing a cover for Roy... but, precisely after this chapter, I've begun to doubt that possibility more... Plus, where's all the thrill then? "No, she was just protecting him. Fooled ya, didn't I? tongue.gif" No... Well, could be happy.gif

@Antimony: It is Havoc... Coolest looking Havoc EVAR. I want those caaards... T_T But no, for chrissake, none of Mustang's men (or woman, for that matter tongue.gif ) is Pride. And if one of them turns out to be, Arakawa sensei'd better have one big explanation ready... There are just so many facts against it for all of them...
And, why, of course... If you look at it, this chapter ends volume 14. Therefore, we'll most probably have aaall of volume 15 for the Ishval Flashback, from all points of view, finally! More or less just like volume 6 was. Me wantssss!!

And, what else could I say....? BITCHSLAP!
Miizah the Huntress
Ok, the whole thing about Riza going to snipe Roy in chp 34 is completely insane to me. Being an animation major, I know anything is possible. Arakawa could have showed us that to set up for the Grande flashback about to happen (it just has too, everything is setting it up). What I mean is, that sniper scope could have been another sniper aiming for Roy, and then showing Riza about to shoot that other sniper makes sense.

However, the idea of her just getting into position and checking on Roy is more likely. It was probably Arakawa going "Hey! That's dramatic and artsy looking, let's panel it this way!"

Anything is possible! XD That's why I love this manga.

Oh! Not to kill the dying horse here ... but the other theory that Roy burned Riza to save her life makes more sense than anything. Afterall, Arakawa already showed Roy's knowledge of cauterizing wounds with his alchemy when fighting Lust.

I like the idea that Gluttony is slowly gaining energy and emerging from Father. Makese sense. As for Father ... I am totally lost with him. I'm confused to that whole "I look like Hohenheim, but wait! Gotchya! I'm not!"

Gonna stop, long post ^^;

EDIT: Sensenic: Thank you, I had too many comments to remember myself!
*Yukiko
QUOTE
Alchemy circles haven't worked like "objects", talismans or whatever that allow the carrier to do alchemy.... The person's gotta have the knowledge to use them (Alchemy is about understanding, deconstructing and reconstructing whatsoever)...


For the most part, I completely agree.. However, from what we know, Scar had no previous knowledge of the working of alchemy before his brother gave him his arm (while we didn't see it in the manga, there is one scene where Scar has a flashback of his brother protecting him from Kimbley, and his brother was the one with the tattooed arms). So maybe Ishbalan alchemy doesn't completely require the person to understand all of the physical compositional stuff? I dunno... sounds kinda plausible.

QUOTE
What I mean is, that sniper scope could have been another sniper aiming for Roy, and then showing Riza about to shoot that other sniper makes sense.


Could be.... but there really is no indication of anyone else being there, which makes it a bit unlikely
Sensenic
QUOTE(Sensenic @ Mar 11 2006, 02:18 AM) [snapback]361441[/snapback]

@Antimony: It is Havoc... Coolest looking Havoc EVAR. I want those caaards... T_T But no, for chrissake, none of Mustang's men (or woman, for that matter tongue.gif ) is Pride. And if one of them turns out to be, Arakawa sensei'd better have one big explanation ready... There are just so many facts against it for all of them...

OMG, the arm! Forget what I said, how could I miss the arm o_O

That BETTER not be Havoc and from some other manga (which I want to read NOW, if it is the case)... Or... or sth... WTF is that?!
QUOTE(Miizah the Huntress @ Mar 11 2006, 02:24 AM) [snapback]361444[/snapback]

EDIT: Sensenic: Thank you, I had too many comments to remember myself!

Why, you're welcome! ^o^
Nepharski
First off, I'd like to say that this idea is probably entirely unmerited and will not play out, but it popped into my head at school and now I need to share it will all of you.

Riza Hawkeye wants to kill Roy Mustang. ph34r.gif

At some undisclosed time in the past, Mustang did something that, directly or otherwise, hurt Riza. Going with the idea that she could be part ishbalian, let's assume that her father was Aremesian (Does her sirname sound Ishbalian? No) and her mother was Ishbalian. Purhaps during the war, something happened. Maybe Riza's mother put up resistance and Roy had to kill her, or maybe an Aremesian marrying or having relations with an Ishbalan was unacceptible and he was punished by Roy Mustang. Whatever. Regardless, he did something, and now she wants him dead. But, it's not as simple as that: She wants him dead on her terms, and she wants to be the one to pull the trigger.

Occasionally, certain individuals in history and fiction have been known to snap and center their entire lives around revenge (such as Inigo Montoya). They do all sorts of things, unspeakable or otherwise, in order to reach that goal, and to Hell with everyone and everything else, cause they don't matter. Inigo Montoya searches his entire life for the six-fingered man, and one of the students in Samurai Champloo goes so far as to serve an obnoxious wannabe-samurai so that he can avenge his master (Episode 8). Everything Riza has been doing has been an attempt to get close to Mustang.

If Riza wanted to kill Mustang, why didn't she do it already?

It's not always that simple. Often times, revenge-bent people want to set their foes up for the fall. In Greek tragedy, the sad protagonists of the tale were always high up in status and society, so that they're fall was that much more tragic. It is very well possible that Riza wants Roy to rise to Fuhrer so that she can trip him at the finish line. Why? Maybe that's the degree to which she wants him to suffer, losing sight of his dream just as his hand was on it. Maybe it's similar to what he did (Unconciously) to her. Regardless, helping someone up only to push them down later is not unheard of.

If Riza wanted to kill Mustang, why is she always defending him?

Sometimes, the person interested in vengence becomes obsessed with their victim. Everyone saw Envy flip out in the Anime when he found out that he didn't get to kill Hohenheim. Envy wanted him to suffer, yes, but HE wanted to do the inflicting. Riza is protective of Roy because SHE is the one who must kill him, and NO ONE ELSE. She needs to defend him till he can get to the top, so she can pull the lader out from under him herself.

What's with the tatoo?

Again, I point to obsession. Perhaps Riza is so involved and sunken into Revenge that she has that tatoo to always remind her of her goal. It looked burnt to me, so I recon she didn't just get it at some shop. It's a self-sign of devotion to her cause, which is bringing Mustang down.

She could have been acting this entire time. However, she is NOT with the Homunculi. She is a separate plot from them. And just because she might be filled with vengence does NOT necessarily mean she is evil, only vengeful.

...

Like I said, crazy, eh? I doubt it will come to pass, but it makes for one Heck of a post.
Sensenic
QUOTE(*Yukiko @ Mar 11 2006, 02:36 AM) [snapback]361446[/snapback]

QUOTE
Alchemy circles haven't worked like "objects", talismans or whatever that allow the carrier to do alchemy.... The person's gotta have the knowledge to use them (Alchemy is about understanding, deconstructing and reconstructing whatsoever)...


For the most part, I completely agree.. However, from what we know, Scar had no previous knowledge of the working of alchemy before his brother gave him his arm (while we didn't see it in the manga, there is one scene where Scar has a flashback of his brother protecting him from Kimbley, and his brother was the one with the tattooed arms). So maybe Ishbalan alchemy doesn't completely require the person to understand all of the physical compositional stuff? I dunno... sounds kinda plausible.

Hmmm... We do not know how does Ishval's alchemy work, that's fo' sho'. I just marked a "doubtable" point there, but nothing we know for sure to be one way or the other, of course.

Anyway, we have seen a scene in the manga with Scar's brother getting between him and Kimbley, both arms tattoed and wide open... (right after Ed did the same to protect Winry) Nothing else so far. \( u_u)/

And the good ol' advice, do not take concepts from the anime wink.gif
Miizah the Huntress
Nepharski:
Wow ... all I can really say is ... wow. As crazy as that sounds, there are plenty of facts to back it up.

But, for the sake of my sanity, I don't think that's the case. (although, that makes for one helluva fan-fic! XD) I'm still holding to the idea that it's some loyalty thing she has with him. My brain even jumped to the conclusion that the two snakes represented Roy and Riza. But that's my hopeless fangirl spouting ideas again.
MonsterEnvy
Somehow, I really doubt that Riza is planning to kill Roy. It's possible, but it just doesn't feel like the way the series is going. In the beginning of chapter 24, Riza seems to sincerely want to protect mustang and help him reach his goals. It might be necessary to appear very loyal to mustang, but would she really decieve winry like that? I don't think that she would have talked so tenderly about mustang and how much she disliked killing if she was intending to make him suffer. It's still possible that she's just so in character that she's begun to talk as if she was really in love with mustang, but i'm not sure that that would be necessary if she was planning to kill him. She could just seem devoted to her cause...
Ciella
[unlurk] lol, okay, i know everone and their mom are coming out w/ the Riza's Ishavalan theories now, but I really did have a theory/fanific idea that had to do w/ that. In some ways it's similar to Nepharski's but a lot of the basic's are different. Fist I think if Riza's Ishvallan it's on her Dad's side, since we already know that the one general we met is her Grandfather on her Mother's side. And the other major difference is, that while I do think Riza was attempting a kll in the sniper flashback, I don't think there was hatred or revenge involed. in her conversation w/ Winry you can tell that Riza doesn't really like guns or killing, but she does what she does to protect. While originally I didn't think she would be an Ishvallan Warrior Priest, after the tatoo, it seems like a definate possibility. I think she entered the military as a spy during the war, using her family connections. Probably just using her postition to keep loses at a minimal. I think she wamted to kill Roy in that scene, because she knew he was the enemy, but didn't because she doesn't want to take human life. I'm not positive about why she devoted herslef to him, but I have this great dramitic scene in my head where after seeing what a swell guy he is, she protects him from the ishvallans that manage to capture him and swear's an ishvallan prtection promise to protect him always in order to save his life.....but that last part's not theory though, just Roiai on the brain biggrin.gif

But on a different note, I was looking at the symbols on her back (A cross, intertwining crowned snakes, a sun, and roy's circle) and I was doing a little research and a lot the symbols there deal with one-ness and perfection. The intertwinging snakes are actually also a symbol of hermaphroditism (something Ed described as perfection). I don't think Riza's pride, but I wouldn't be suprised if her aray dated as far back as Xerxes. If anything 'Roy's Symbol" was probably taken from Riza's (though probably not directy from Riza, just other appearences of the symbol in their world).

And on yet another note, on page 16, lil' Panda's totally helping w/ the cleaning and it's adourable!!! biggrin.gif

K, back to lurkdom [/delurk] tongue.gif
Scorpion
Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember Kimbley's name coming up in a previous chapter regarding possible human sacrifices. I'm not sure of hoe good a candidate he would be though, since we barely know a thing about him.
MonsterEnvy
The fuhrer decided that he was unfit because he's somewhat insane and "doesn't have the nerve" to open the Doors, even though he has the ability.
Blue_Haven
Hi everyone. Just thought I would put in a little input on Riza.
I just think that she had the tatoo before she got the burn marks. It would just make more sense that way.
Like the array had a certain signifigance and then Roy maybe "damaged" it to save her life or something?
I have no idea why it's Roy's symbol on her tatoo though. Only the master-mind Hiromu Arakawa knows for sure. sleep.gif
Aoko-chan
I don't think that Riza is Ishval related (even though she has the tattoo) and regarding the sniper, she is probably watching over Roy. And what MonsterEnvy said, I don't think that Riza would go that far to hide her identity and lie to Winry. She did say something along the line of Ed not being able to continue. So if she was an Ishvalian who is planning to kill Roy, she would not have lied to Winry (if she believes that Ed can't continue, it means that she might not see Winry again, and knowing that Winry dislikes the military why does she say such things to Winry then?)

That tattoo does have something to do with the Ishval rebellion, and with Roy too. Although the tattoo has resemblances with Scar's tattoo, but it could be related to Alchemy or Renkinjutsu too ne? Since Mei did comment on Scar's tattoo saying that it is a mix of Alchemy, Renkinjutsu (and possibly Ishvalian Alchemy). So, it could be one of the three. But the top part of the tattoo reminds me of the wall in Xerxes and the one that Gluttony swallowed.
Isee
Hi. Long time lurker here. Finally decided to register. Anyway . . .

I just wanted to point out that it's not Havoc on the cover. I know; it looks like him. It's actually the form Envy took in chapter 56. That would explain his green arm and everything. I totally thought Envy took Havoc's form back in chapter 34, but apparently not. If he had, Ed would at least have commented on it or something.
KittyK
According to a discussion over in one of the LJ groups, the other guy on the cover is from another series. Not Havoc, not Envy. Dunno the series, but that's what I read, and although he does look like Havoc, his eyes are the wrong color, aren't they?

Back to Hawkeye, I guess I'm having a hard time believing that she could really be a traitor to Roy, just considering her behavior during the Lust fight, and then waiting all night for him last chapter. The tattoo and the sniper thing just isn't enough for me, but if there really are more clues that I've just missed, i'd love to see them smile.gif
And whenever I reread some of the manga, I'll be doing it with something else to look for heh.

i agree that tattoo looks like Roy's array, surrounded by hallmarks that look more like some of Scar's arm. Her scar is more recent than that tattoo, and since the chapter is titled the Scars of Ishval, I'm leaning to believing she got the scar way back then, suggesting that tattoo is even older (or was recent at the time of injury). I have to wonder, like I've read others say, if the tattoo can serve as an array anymore, since the scar disrupts the circle. But anyway, if she has the tattoo because of Roy, before she was injured (and possibly saved by Roy) that seems to suggest that her loyalty predates that injury.

Ed's reference to the symbol of perfection was regarding dragons, but in some cultures dragons are more serpent like than the ones Ed drew. Like chinese dragons, er, maybe Xing style dragons? So, ah, too much thinking.

I love how new chapters make me need to go back and read the older ones smile.gif
MonsterEnvy
The tattoo has a lot of interesting symbolism. The two crowned snakes intertwined symbolize a few things: One, the crowned snake is the continuity of life from beginning to end. The ouroboros is a corruption of the snake, changing it from a straght path to a circle bending in on itself. The entwined snakes symbolize hermaphroditism and perfection. The equiarmed cross under the array symbolizes balance, and natural order. The cross seems to spring from a sun underneath, which Ed defines as the soul in chapter 53 or 54. On top, of course, is the array used by Roy to transmute elements in the air into oxygen for his flames.
The writing has an ishbalan feel to it, but there isn't nearly as much on either scar or his borther's arms, and they don't contain any of the Amestrian and Xerxian symbolism on Riza's array. Also, all of the examples of tattooing we've seen were on the arms, which makes it unlikely that Riza's tattoo is strictly ishbalan. I think that
1) The array feeds off of her energy, her soul. It would probably be damaging over time, but the soul would provide an energy source like a philosopher's stone. It looks like the array takes it's power from the sun, the soul.
2) The tattoo has a lot of symbolism for natural balance. Therefore, the purpose is probably to restore the natural order.
3) The array is identical to Roy's, which changes the proportions of molecules in the air.
4) All of these taken together would mean that Riza's array changes the proportions of molecules in air back to their natural state when they're changed by an alchemist such as Mustang.
Also, it seems likely that the transmutation is involuntary. It's difficult to have any sort of clapping or whatever on your back.
The burn marks probably inhibit the array, which make it possible for Riza to work with Mustang without absolutely destroying his effectiveness.
The question remains of where she got the tattoo, if not ishbal. Amestris also seems unlikely, as they haven't used tattoos for alchemy... except with kimbley, i suppose. Possiblity?
Edit: Once she started actually working with roy, the array would have needed to be destroyed so that she didn't completely annul him. Her seal seems to be more potent then his, especially if it feeds off of her soul. Just to clarify.
For reference:
IPB Image
*Yukiko
Hmmm... MonsterEnvy that would make a lot of sense.... but if the tattoo returns the molecules around her to normal proportions, wouldn't it symbolize more that she's protected when Roy's fighting? So then she wouldn't end up as a casualty in any of his battles... But then if it's to keep her protected, why is she burned? That would seem to be the exact opposite effect.... I guess I have to go back and stare at that tattoo some more..... wacko.gif

(edit) haha, there it is

Wait... so what's with the salamander thing inside the circle?
MonsterEnvy
Oh, yes. Salamanders have been associated with fire for centuries. They were thought to be born from magical fires that were left untended. I didn't mention it because that array is just identical to roy's in every respect.
Full Metal Elf
All I can say about this chapter is....OMG!! Totally was not expecting the thing at the end with Riza.

Scar and Marcoh...it's what I saw coming, and that will certianly turn out to be interesting.....

Mei Chen and Ran Fan....that was also interesting (and quite humerous)....

Ok, too much to talk about, must re-read and write again!..mwuahahaha
GaluxKitty
The guy on the cover with Ed? That's Jack from Shanghai Youma Kikai. It's a another work of Arakawa's.

And Riza's tattoo, regardless of what it once was, is now useless due to the hugeass scars breaking the array.
bemused_non-alchemist
QUOTE (GaluxKitty @ Mar 11 2006, 04:39 PM) *
The guy on the cover with Ed? That's Jack from Shanghai Youma Kikai. It's a another work of Arakawa's.

Jack the Ripper. biggrin.gif
And very entertaining it was too, though not as good as FMA or Stray Dog.

I don't think we can determine if The Tattoo has any Ishvalian connections, looking at the design alone. Scar's tattoo looks all elaborate and complicated, yes, but so did the Silver Alchemist's (the ones covering his entire palms-- now those are seriously insane.) And as for the IshvalianRiza theory... not likely, for the reasons stated by people who managed to post before me.

Anyway, about Mei and Lanfan. They're pretty hostile towards each other now, with their clan rivalries and all. But they'll be good friends once they calm down and get to understand each other better, I should think. In the far-off future. biggrin.gif Oh, a question: Can princesses ascend the throne? If Xing operates like China in this matter then it should be a no... how does this matter?? ><
Colette
ZOMGFTA isn't working for me....*emo*

Is there anywhere else where it's been translated?
Sensenic
More!

@Nepharski: Man, you're nutz! No, really, it's a really well worked out theory, way better than "OMG, RIZA'S PRIDE WTFBBQLOL!!" tongue.gif, and it would be oh so much shocking... But, don't take it personally, just for the 2 characters' sake, I hope you're utterly and completely WRONG. wink.gif

@MonsterEnvy and Aoko chan: Why wouldn't she be honest to Winry? Why, in this case it's none other than the manga itself which gives you the reason why happy.gif... Because Riza would've known that, while improbable, things could go as they actually did... in that case, wouldn't Winry have unnecessarily become a major menace/obstacle to her? Therefore... Not that I agree with Neph's theory, but if it is the case (Arakawa sensei forbid), it is PERFECTLY logical that she wouldn't tell ANYONE and ALWAYS play her role, just in case. An obsession's an obsession allright.

@Aoko chan: Rentanjutsu happy.gif

And, as for the array being there for protection, read this post from slugsrbad @ ZOMGFTA's forum...
QUOTE
straight from wikipedia...

The mythical salamander resembles the real salamander somewhat in appearance, but makes its home in fires, the hotter the better. (Similarly, the salamander in heraldry is shown in flames, but is otherwise depicted as a generic lizard.) Early travelers to China were shown garments which, or so they were told, had been woven of wool from the salamander: the cloth was completely unharmed by fire. The garments had actually been woven from asbestos. Later Paracelsus suggested that the salamander was the elemental of fire.


Note the "early travelers to China" part... Now what could that parallel to... Who was it that had an interest on Xing's Rentanjutsu, I wonder...? wink.gif
Maybe Riza asked that certain someone for protection against alchemical oxygen concentrating...?

QUOTE(bemused_non-alchemist @ Mar 11 2006, 01:53 PM) [snapback]361598[/snapback]

QUOTE(GaluxKitty @ Mar 11 2006, 04:39 PM) [snapback]361571[/snapback]

The guy on the cover with Ed? That's Jack from Shanghai Youma Kikai. It's a another work of Arakawa's.

[spoiler]Jack the Ripper. biggrin.gif [/spoiler]
And very entertaining it was too, though not as good as FMA or Stray Dog.

OMG! You've got'em?
Tell me where to find both of them or pass them to me! NOW!! ( >O<)/

OK, sorry happy.gifU

Could you tell me where to find both of them or pass them to me, pleaase...? m(__)m
QUOTE(bemused_non-alchemist @ Mar 11 2006, 01:53 PM) [snapback]361598[/snapback]

I don't think we can determine if The Tattoo has any Ishvalian connections, looking at the design alone. Scar's tattoo looks all elaborate and complicated, yes, but so did the Silver Alchemist's (the ones covering his entire palms-- now those are seriously insane.) And as for the IshvalianRiza theory... not likely, for the reasons stated by people who managed to post before me.

Hmmm... Still it looks really similar to Scar's... And one word: Latin. The only places we've seen such language used is in Scar's and Riza's tattoos (IIRC, that is happy.gif)...
QUOTE(bemused_non-alchemist @ Mar 11 2006, 01:53 PM) [snapback]361598[/snapback]

Anyway, about Mei and Lanfan. They're pretty hostile towards each other now, with their clan rivalries and all. But they'll be good friends once they calm down and get to understand each other better, I should think. In the far-off future. biggrin.gif Oh, a question: Can princesses ascend the throne? If Xing operates like China in this matter then it should be a no... how does this matter?? ><

Why, of course, threy'll become good friends.... Just like Ling and Ed ("Nno Baka Ouji!" happy.gif).
What was it... "Feathers of the same nest hating each other"?

And, yup, I said once that, as far as we know, Mei Chang (I think I'll go with Chang to avoid confusion with the chan honorific) can only pretend to be the next concubine for the Chang clan, at best....
That being said, tho', maybe Xing is more sexually equitative than Ol' China... The fact it is based on it doesn't mean it has to be the very same culture, per se, no?

EDIT: erorr corretcion o_O
Aoko-chan
ooh I made a typo tongue.gif

@bemused non-alchemist : I don't think Mei is doing it for the thrown, but for the survival of her clan and maybe to help the emperor himself (either fake hope like Lin's or it could be she just wants to help him)

@Sensenic: Think about it.. the only tattoos with latin is on Riza's and Scar's back/arm. I also thought about Xerxes, but that city is destroyed for a long time now. I still don't think that she is Ishvalian for some reason ^^;;
MonsterEnvy
@Sensenic: While Riza's conversation with winry isn't proof that she's not secretly working against/planning to kill Mustang, it just felt very over the top and unnecessary to answer Winry's question: had she ever shot anyone. She could have ended the topic far before she got anywhere near the topic of protecting mustang.
With the salamanders, the travelers to China might be important, but I think that we need to remember that Paracelsus's real name was von Hohenheim. I think that we can assume that salamanders as a symbol simply represent fire, as a lot of Amestrian alchemy does seem to stem from Hohenheim's ideas. For example, he was fascinated with the philosopher's stone. Anyone found a historical parallel for Father?
Full Metal Elf
Hmmm...there are a lot of great theories out there. I'm not sure what I agree with though, lol. I defiently think that the array dates back to Xerxes, it's not looking like anything Ishbalan.


But that doesn't mean she didn't get it in Ishbal....isn't it possible she was kidnapped during the war, and they did something like this to her, to use her??

The chapter is called, the Scars of Ishbal....so I think it is directly refering to Riza's tattoo and the scars on it. She might have been taken and then was going to be used, for who knows what reason (i'll think of something, tongue.gif)....but then was found. Then maybe Roy burned the array so it couldn't be used anymore to save her (i.e. the burn marks). This is just an idea I'm spitting out, I'll have to work on it...happy.gif
Connie Mei
lol I'm sorry if I'm repeating anything you guys are saying...

But I just finished reading the chapter and when I first saw the tatoo, I was like blink.gif

But the tatoo is partially identical to Roy's, is it not? (the thing in the back looks like DNA o_0)

Is she a flame alchemist too? ohmy.gif Actually, I don't so as much anymore, but what could it have been for?

I don't think I can wait another 31 days lol...
Jedi28
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 11 2006, 09:48 AM) [snapback]361622[/snapback]

@Sensenic: While Riza's conversation with winry isn't proof that she's not secretly working against/planning to kill Mustang, it just felt very over the top and unnecessary to answer Winry's question: had she ever shot anyone. She could have ended the topic far before she got anywhere near the topic of protecting mustang.
With the salamanders, the travelers to China might be important, but I think that we need to remember that Paracelsus's real name was von Hohenheim. I think that we can assume that salamanders as a symbol simply represent fire, as a lot of Amestrian alchemy does seem to stem from Hohenheim's ideas. For example, he was fascinated with the philosopher's stone. Anyone found a historical parallel for Father?


Father almost reminds me of an evil Merlin kinda but maybe that's just me.

I agree that I don't think Riza is evil. Winry was just a little kid, she'd never be a threat to someone like Riza. For one thing, who'd believe anything a little kid said over Riza's "Oh, she just misunderstood me" or "She's just overreacting like a typical child." Even if Winry did become a threat, Riza could always just kill her. Every time Riza mentioned the "person she had to protect the scene flashed onto Roy. All Riza had to say was "I joined for personal reasons" or "there was something I had to do," or anything along those lines. The fact she went into a long thing, I thought, just showed how much it meant to her and how much she cared.

I also don't think she's evil because I don't think Roy is that stupid. The flashback was from his point of view so he knew she was up there with a sniper rifle aiming at his head (for whatever reason). He's not going to buy any "Oh, I WAS going to kill you but now I changed my mind and am totally loyal to you" story. He clearly cares about her, the Fuhrer knows that Mustang cares about her (and he's not stupid either) which is why he's using Riza as his "hostage" against Mustang. Mustang just ain't that dumb. biggrin.gif

Last reason I don't think she's evil is because I don't think the Fuhrer is that stupid. He calls Riza, Roy's pet dog which suggests he sees her as this loyal person who just follows Mustang around. The Fuhrer is a master at deception and getting people to believe other things (hiding the fact he was a Homunculus for so long) so he's got to be able to have a handle on seeing deception in other people and reading other people. I think if Riza was evil, the Fuhrer would know about it, and would probably exploit it by having Riza stay close to Mustang and keep an eye on him, he wouldn't take her away from Mustang.

Anyway, there's my theory. biggrin.gif

Edit: I just thought of a really simple explanation for Sniper Riza aiming at Roy's head. She likes him and they're in the middle of a battlefield. She's sitting up on top of the roof with her rifle and sees Roy off in the distance. She can't see him too clearly from that distance so she uses her scope (which is a binocular) to zoom in on him to see if he's okay, has he been hurt? Is there anyone or anything around him that he nees to be warned about/protected from? In the Anime you'll notice an episode where Archer and Armstrong use the scope of a rifle to look at Wrath on a rooftop. They weren't planning on shooting him, it was just a good way to get a closer look. Riza wouldn't have been thinking "oh, I'm aiming my gun at Roy," she'd have been thinking "I'm aiming my scope at Roy to see if he's okay."
MonsterEnvy
QUOTE
or one thing, who'd believe anything a little kid said over Riza's "Oh, she just misunderstood me" or "She's just overreacting like a typical child." Even if Winry did become a threat, Riza could always just kill her.


Really, can we see Riza killing Winry and not getting in some sort of trouble for it? Ed would flip out. And, the "misunderstood" factor probably wouldn't work too terribly well.. my point was that she didn't need to go so over the top.

QUOTE
I just thought of a really simple explanation for Sniper Riza aiming at Roy's head. She likes him and they're in the middle of a battlefield. She's sitting up on top of the roof with her rifle and sees Roy off in the distance. She can't see him too clearly from that distance so she uses her scope (which is a binocular) to zoom in on him to see if he's okay, has he been hurt? Is there anyone or anything around him that he nees to be warned about/protected from? In the Anime you'll notice an episode where Archer and Armstrong use the scope of a rifle to look at Wrath on a rooftop. They weren't planning on shooting him, it was just a good way to get a closer look. Riza wouldn't have been thinking "oh, I'm aiming my gun at Roy," she'd have been thinking "I'm aiming my scope at Roy to see if he's okay."


That seems sort of unlikely... Riza has never seemed like a soldier that would neglect her other duties to check up on Roy in a battlefield situation like that. The only time that she collapsed was when she thought he was dead (and, remember how upset she was? It's possible that she wanted to kill him herself, but still...)
Jedi28
She wouldn't be neglecting her duties. Roy is a superior officer, Riza is in a sniper position so it's her duty to take out threats surrounding a superior officer. Not to mention there were several other military people there as well. She may not have been assigned a specific target (take out the man in the pink coat) so she was just up there looking for potential threats. She sees a group of military officers, sites in on them to make sure they're okay and not in danger, sees Roy and sites in on him because A. he's the ranking officer in the group and B. she gets to check on him at the same time.

I think Riza could kill Winry and never have a single person find out about it, especially if she did it while Winry was still a kid. Granted, Ed would probably go berserk but Riza doesn't know that.

What chapter did Riza collapse in? I don't remember that one.
MonsterEnvy
39, when Mustang kills Lust. I simply don't think that Riza would point a gun at Roy if she wasn't trying to kill him. She definitely looked intent in that frame, not like she was simply checking up on him. Also, the sight seemed a bit too perfectly aligned at Roy's head.
Colette
*Just got done reading*


Oh....My...God...



The tattoo...Is scaring the crap out of me. I haven't read any posts here yet, so I have no idea what it means yet.

Oi. Scar and Marcoh. That shook me up a little. Can't say I didn't expect it, though.

And Ran Fan is so awesome~ I predicted that she'd say she would take only half a year of recovery. Weird. Maybe I'm pyschic?


*begins to read up on everything*


Okay, I just can't see Riza being evil....It may be my huge liking for Riza, but..



This chapter inflicted a huge blow at me T_T


I can't see Riza wanting to kill Mustang either...

If Riza dies I will stop reading FMA and become a nun. If she kill Mustang, the same thing will happen.
Sensenic
QUOTE(Jedi28 @ Mar 11 2006, 07:41 PM) [snapback]361680[/snapback]

(...)

I also don't think she's evil because I don't think Roy is that stupid. The flashback was from his point of view so he knew she was up there with a sniper rifle aiming at his head (for whatever reason). He's not going to buy any "Oh, I WAS going to kill you but now I changed my mind and am totally loyal to you" story. He clearly cares about her, the Fuhrer knows that Mustang cares about her (and he's not stupid either) which is why he's using Riza as his "hostage" against Mustang. Mustang just ain't that dumb. biggrin.gif

(...)

Edit: I just thought of a really simple explanation for Sniper Riza aiming at Roy's head. She likes him and they're in the middle of a battlefield. She's sitting up on top of the roof with her rifle and sees Roy off in the distance. She can't see him too clearly from that distance so she uses her scope (which is a binocular) to zoom in on him to see if he's okay, has he been hurt? Is there anyone or anything around him that he nees to be warned about/protected from? In the Anime you'll notice an episode where Archer and Armstrong use the scope of a rifle to look at Wrath on a rooftop. They weren't planning on shooting him, it was just a good way to get a closer look. Riza wouldn't have been thinking "oh, I'm aiming my gun at Roy," she'd have been thinking "I'm aiming my scope at Roy to see if he's okay."

Again, what I said... I also thought it was most probably Riza protecting Roy... I thought that panel was to make you think "OMG!" and then "oh, just scoping around him..."
BUT, it is precisely this chapter, that shows there's more to this side of the Ishval story than we (at least I) thought at first... so, now, if the thing was just "Heh, she was just covering him. Fooled ya, didn't I?", I'd find it kind of unclimatic, given the level of thrill we've been left with...
And, as for the FB from Roy's point of view, it wasn't, I think. It was sth more like of a preview (like Scar's FB), a "teaser", if you prefer, where we're shown different interesting points only in one panel each... to leave us hungry for more 'n stuff. It was NOT necessarily from Roy's point of view, with him knowing (altho it could be)

And, last, I've never said, and will never say sth as "Riza is TEH EVIL". My theory was just that he wanted vengeance on the State Alchemists as an adoptive Ishvalan, whereas now she wants to protect someone very important. But one thing that's really clear is that Riza IS NOT EVIL. Even with Nepharski's theory, he's only a person obsessed with vengeance on another person, not some murdering psycho or similar... Don't simplify things to "Riza is evil", please.

Now, I don't believe my theory anymore (or I do, but discouraged, as I've given myself heavy -as in, official- proof against it), but it's nothing to do with any of that.
QUOTE(Summoner Colette @ Mar 12 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]361751[/snapback]

Okay, I just can't see Riza being evil....It may be my huge liking for Riza, but..

No she's not. It just wouldn't match all of her actions up till now AT ALL. People quit that already.
QUOTE(Summoner Colette @ Mar 12 2006, 01:35 AM) [snapback]361751[/snapback]

This chapter inflicted a huge blow at me T_T


I can't see Riza wanting to kill Mustang either...

If Riza dies I will stop reading FMA and become a nun. If she kill Mustang, the same thing will happen.

Good luck with your internship, then, sister tongue.gif
Colette
Are you by any chance implying that she will? dry.gif

Because I would be DEAD inside. Dead.

I'll forget about FMA in the years to come, but for the next yearish, I wouldl wander aimlessly without a purpose. Obssessed? Maybe.


Still no word on Izumi....She's getting even less air time in the manga.


No word on Gring either....
Jedi28
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 11 2006, 06:34 PM) [snapback]361750[/snapback]

39, when Mustang kills Lust. I simply don't think that Riza would point a gun at Roy if she wasn't trying to kill him. She definitely looked intent in that frame, not like she was simply checking up on him. Also, the sight seemed a bit too perfectly aligned at Roy's head.


AHHHHH! I read that chapter but don't remember that scene and now the online manga viewer thingy is down! They say they're doing maintenance, I HATE it when they say that becuase it usually means they will NEVER come back! The Funimation forums have been "upgrading" for a couple months now and the Fruits Basket Forum I used to belong to has been doing "maintenance" for over six months now. Anyone know where else I can get the sclanlations, especially of 57 once it gets out?? biggrin.gif

Of course she looked intent, she knew at any moment she might have to help him out, she'd better look intent. Looking at all the Manga I don't think anyone would be able to put on THAT good of an act of "oh, I'm happy, I'm so loyal" when in reality they actually wanted to kill someone and/or hated the military. You'd have to be truly, deeply, insane and that would manifest itself I think.
Animeoldtimer
QUOTE(Full Metal Elf @ Mar 11 2006, 11:57 AM) [snapback]361638[/snapback]


But that doesn't mean she didn't get it in Ishbal....isn't it possible she was kidnapped during the war, and they did something like this to her, to use her??

The chapter is called, the Scars of Ishbal....so I think it is directly refering to Riza's tattoo and the scars on it. She might have been taken and then was going to be used, for who knows what reason (i'll think of something, tongue.gif)....but then was found. Then maybe Roy burned the array so it couldn't be used anymore to save her (i.e. the burn marks). This is just an idea I'm spitting out, I'll have to work on it...happy.gif


That's very close to what I was thinking. I was thinking that Scar's brother was involved and maybe he gave her the tattoo just as he gave Scar the one on his arm. And Roy did as you said.
Chibi Viki
after reading 8 pages worth of posts...

i'm still hyped over this chapter -- but I have to disagree with the theory of Riza being half-Ishvalian and her tattoo being of Ishval origins (no, her eyes aren't as reddish as Scar's, nor is her skin as tanned as his). Nor was she adopted as one (see grandpa general graman in east city).

Comparing the tattoo to scar's, scar's tattoo look more tribal and have very few written inscriptions unlike riza's. Actually, Riza's tattoo looks more like something from xerxes -- the origin of alchemy. Ah, that and the Ishvals use GEOMANCY not alchemy; I don't think they'll be using the same symbols/arrays with alchemy.

I agree with everyone that it dates back to pre-ishval war though since it has scars over it. And the additional sexy points for Riza who was not only nearly topless, but also had that wet look XD

I'm also open to the possibility of Riza wanting to kill Roy during the Ishval war -- she USED to want to kill Roy or was under a superior who wanted her to kill him for political reasons -- or just plain wanted kill the one alchemist who killed the most number of people for the sake of justice. Can't blame her back then, she didn't know him personally unlike today.

Anyway, along the lines, I think this would've been how Roy earned Riza's eternal devotion. If this DID happen, then it'll only come to show that in the end, Roy does DESERVE her loyalty and trust. For me, that would be a good scenario.

@Summoner Colette I doubt if we'll be seeing Izumi any sooner... her part is over for now after all. We may come across her name in the Ishval war flashbacks or even see her turn down the military, but... hmm... maybe not. I don't think Riza is evil happy.gif;; evil has a weird eye on his forehead or an ouroboros tattoo. Not even Scar is that evil.

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