Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Marta/martel Theory
Fullmetal Alchemist Discussion Board > Fullmetal Alchemist Discussions > Fullmetal Alchemist Anime (FMA-1) > Original Japanese episodes (with sub)
Wyrd_Raven
<Moving from FMA Anime American Audience sub-forum to FMA Anime Japanese Audience sub-forum where all dub/sub threads are being collected currently. 02/21/07 ~Tombow>

I've been seeing alot of talk over why Martel is named Marta in the English dubbing of FMA. I do have a theory on this based on previous series and the Japanese language when it grasps foreign words.


First off, as we all know, in Japan the english letters "L" and "R" often get mixed around so from this we get Martel being Marter depending on who says/ spells it out. Now this by itself would not lead Martel to being changed to Marta in the English Version.

To explain this change one needs to look at the live action Gneration Kikaider series. Here is where the interesting thing happens. Many of you may not know this but this live action series did air subtitled in Hawaii. However due to certain spellings of it they went an alternate name, Generation Kikaida (as seen here). This is another part of Japanese language translation issues on the part of translating to English. The ending part "-er" is crossed with "-a" and thus leading Marter becoming MARTA.

This can explain what happened. Of course with the Manga it may be different, (as is the case with Ishvar/Ishbal) but that will be another day.
Sleeping Forest
???

what about farman/falman?
Wyrd_Raven
QUOTE(Violet Alchemist @ Dec 19 2005, 01:34 PM) [snapback]331376[/snapback]

???

what about farman/falman?


Simple "L/R" confusion.
Katrina Forest
The example you gave showed the "da" character being used to represent the English sound "der" but I'm not sure about it working in reverse.

When I saw that the names had been changed, I went on the assumption that Marta was simply a more familiar-sounding name than Martel. It's been a while since I watchied the Japanese as well - is it possible that when they said her name in Japanese it sounded like "Marta?"
Wyrd_Raven
That's exactly what I am refering to. Alot of the disputes between saying Kikaider and Kikaida was based over audio more than writing.
Katrina Forest
QUOTE(Wyrd_Raven @ Dec 19 2005, 09:11 PM) [snapback]331565[/snapback]

That's exactly what I am refering to. Alot of the disputes between saying Kikaider and Kikaida was based over audio more than writing.


Ah.. okay. Gomen if I misunderstood you.
Tombow
Wow, I have never made the connection between the two, but now Wyrd_Raven had mentioned, it makes sense!!

To supplement Wyrd_Raven's theory, if I may, let me add a bit of additional information...

In Hawaii, along with standard American English, many locals speak Hawaiian Pidgin English.
It's similar to other Pidgin English/creole language, and this one was developped among many imigrant laborer imported to work in the sugar cane field in Hawaii, from China, Japan, Philippine, and also some Portuguese who were imported to work as the field supervisors, and some other duties.

Anyway, in Hawaiian Pidgin English, among other characteristics, th sound is replaced by t or d, for example, that becomes dat, and think becomes tink.
Also, r after a vowel is often omitted, for example, letter becomes letta.
And, l at the end of a word is often pronounced o, for example, mental becomes mento.

So, moving along that line, Martel could become Marto, but since this Fma character was a female character, Marto could have been changed to Marta, don't you think?? happy.gif
Wyrd_Raven
It is an interesting side not but since the location of Funimation is in Texas, we have to consider that Pidgin is not in an entire root fault here.

Still there is the vocale and written "-er" and "-a" debacle. This is still may theory as if the katakana spelling for this was made wrong by BONES (and admitedly they have done name errors for cast listing like turning "Winry" into "Winree") it could have been missed completely.
Tombow
^^ Gahaha, so much for my Hawaiian Pidgin side note!! XDDD
I can safely assume they don't normally speak Hawaiian Pidgin English in Texas!! laugh.gif

Hehe, so my little digression didn't help your theory at all, but I still think your Katakana theory makes sense. happy.gif
Katrina Forest
I'm no expert, but unlike a few other languages, ending a name in "o" as opposed to "a" has no effect on whether or not it is male or female in Japanese. For example, Minako and Makoto could both be female names.

...I think I'm going off topic...
Tombow
QUOTE(Katrina Forest @ Dec 22 2005, 08:22 PM) [snapback]332649[/snapback]

I'm no expert, but unlike a few other languages, ending a name in "o" as opposed to "a" has no effect on whether or not it is male or female in Japanese. For example, Minako and Makoto could both be female names.

True, unlike many Latin based languages, in Japanese both female and male names could end with "o" sound.
And, therein lays the potential subbing/dubbing dilenmma, because sometimes it becomes an issue when those Japanese names get subbed/dubbed into Latin based languages, or other lanuguages, in which language rules/custom usage dictate female names end with certain sound, and male names with certain other sound.

For example, besides those obvious Latin based languages such as Italian and French with female names ending with certain vowels, a Japanese girl named Minako may go to Russia, and find people there keep calling her Minatchka, because people there might often associate girl names ending with that sound.
(Hence, part of my previous post talking about Marto might have been changed into Marta to make it more sounding like a female name, during the process of Martel getting dubbed into English... )

BTW, yes, in Japanese language, Minako and Makoto could both be female names, that is, technicaly speaking. smile.gif
(Tho, if I'm correct, in customary usage, Minako is almost always a female name, and Makoto is most likely a male name and it would be very uncommon usage to find Makoto as a female name.)
But, they make good examples of both female name and male name ending in "o" sound in Japanese. happy.gif
TheFlameAlchemist
@Tombow- You are right, We dont speak that in Texas, though in Louisiana that is common, wit da creoles an' da cajuns. i call her Martel, It should be that but it could have just been pure americanazation of the name. thats what i thought.
Tombow
QUOTE(TheFlameAlchemist @ Dec 23 2005, 12:06 AM) [snapback]332709[/snapback]

@Tombow- You are right, We dont speak that in Texas, though in Louisiana that is common, wit da creoles an' da cajuns. i call her Martel, It should be that but it could have just been pure americanazation of the name. thats what i thought.

Gaa!! TheFlameAlchemist, you are sooo right!! I completely forgot about da creoles, and da cajuns!! Da Hawaiian Pidgin isn't dat unique after all!! XDD
Luisiana folks, please don't thraw crayfish at me!! laugh.gif

And, yeah, it could have been just a simple reason like that. happy.gif
DZBrick6
So, how does one go about explaining total changes in episode titles then? I can understand language customs governing name/gender, but I find it tough to believe that 'simple translation errors' could change an episode's title...I refer to #23, 'Fullmetal Heart' becoming 'Heart of Steel'...which is it or is this like that old White Zombie EP that ended up printing wrong and they didn't have the cash to fix it? I know, I'm REALLY reaching, but sometimes curiosity knows no bounds. I await any intelligent theories on this one...
The Great Asparagus
That's a lovely theory. Rizenbul got messed up pretty bad. I have no idea how it's actually spelled now.
TheFlameAlchemist
I do belive it is spelled Rizzenbol, In the manga I read it was called summthing completely different
Tombow
QUOTE(DZBrick6 @ Dec 23 2005, 10:05 PM) [snapback]333140[/snapback]

So, how does one go about explaining total changes in episode titles then? I can understand language customs governing name/gender, but I find it tough to believe that 'simple translation errors' could change an episode's title...I refer to #23, 'Fullmetal Heart' becoming 'Heart of Steel'...which is it or is this like that old White Zombie EP that ended up printing wrong and they didn't have the cash to fix it? I know, I'm REALLY reaching, but sometimes curiosity knows no bounds. I await any intelligent theories on this one...

I'm guessing the similar way the series title, "Hagane No Renkinjutsushi (Steel Alchemist)"ended up as Fullmetal Alchemist... Taking artistic liverty??
(BTW, I watch Ghost in the Shell, and their English episode titles are utterly completely different from Japanese episode titles, and the similar thing happening with Samurai Champloo. blink.gif )
anonymouse
QUOTE(Tombow @ Dec 23 2005, 11:42 PM) [snapback]333178[/snapback]
(BTW, I watch Ghost in the Shell, and their English episode titles are utterly completely different from Japanese episode titles, and the similar thing happening with Samurai Champloo. blink.gif )


From what I understood about Ghost in the Shell, each episode has always had two titles, one written in Japanese and the other written in English. So even during the original run in Japan, they saw both titles after the opening theme. In that case, it wouldn't really be a translation issue, just the creators' special way of titling the episodes. Is that incorrect?
Tombow
^^ Yeah, they always have both English and Japanese episode titles side by side at the begining of the episode, and the two are completely irrevelant of each other!! rolleyes.gif
anonymouse
Is it the same deal with Champloo? Every episode has always had a dual title?

If so, it's especially clever in that case, because they can make episode names alliterative in both languages. (At least, I'm guessing that the Japanese titles are also alliterative. I might be wrong on that.)
Toby-Chan
QUOTE(DZBrick6 @ Dec 23 2005, 10:05 PM) [snapback]333140[/snapback]

So, how does one go about explaining total changes in episode titles then? I can understand language customs governing name/gender, but I find it tough to believe that 'simple translation errors' could change an episode's title...I refer to #23, 'Fullmetal Heart' becoming 'Heart of Steel'...which is it or is this like that old White Zombie EP that ended up printing wrong and they didn't have the cash to fix it? I know, I'm REALLY reaching, but sometimes curiosity knows no bounds. I await any intelligent theories on this one...



Actually, Heart of Steel is the more accurate translation, but Fullmetal Heart was probably considered because of the parallel between the series title and the episode title. 'Hagane no renkinjutsushi' means 'Alchemist of Steel', but from the beginning, Arakawa published her manga with both that title, and the Engrish Fullmetal title. Hagane No Kokoro really means "Heart/Soul of steel".

They change a lot of episode titles. Episode four "Love's Transmutation"--> "A forger's love". Episodes 11/12 "Gravel Earth part 1/2"--> "The other brothers Elric part 1/2". Artistic liscence with translation.

I know what is being said about how the intended implied "r/l" sounds might be mistranslated by their use of simply katakana-ing it as "a", but that wasn't the case with Martel. It would have made sense if her name in Katakana had been "Maataa", but it was "Maateru." I don't see the point in ignoring a full syllable.
Edward'sGirl
QUOTE(anonymouse @ Dec 24 2005, 12:53 AM) [snapback]333220[/snapback]

Is it the same deal with Champloo? Every episode has always had a dual title?

If so, it's especially clever in that case, because they can make episode names alliterative in both languages. (At least, I'm guessing that the Japanese titles are also alliterative. I might be wrong on that.)


If you're wondering if 'champloo' is a typo or a screw up, it isn't. It's an Okinawan word meaning 'mixed up' or strirred 'together'.
It is also spelled Champuru, but both spellings are correct.
In, fact this site here has info on it.
Samurai Champloo FAQ



and from what I've heard, Hagane does (or can) mean Fullmetal because the Japanese word for steel is 'tekko' (or suchiru in katakana)
so I'd like to believe that Hagane No Renkinjutsushi means Fullmetal Alchemist and that Hagane No Kokoro means Fullmetal Spirit (seeing that Kokoro has different meanings concerning the heart, mind etc.)
Tombow
Hehe, Edward'sGirl, I like Champru (the Okinawan dish of the namesake,) and rice!! biggrin.gif

(Tho, I think anonymouse was asking if each episode of Samurai Champloo series has dual English and Japanese titles, and not about the word "Champloo" itself. But, your post reminded me of the dish!! Thanks!!) happy.gif

OT: By the way, as an additional info, if I'm correct, the Okinawan word "champru" is usually not in Japanese usage, but the word "champon/chanpon," (besides the name of a dish from Nagasaki, the Southern Japanese town the Champloo trio is heading in the anime series,) tho not in frequent usage, (nor a "proper" Japanse word,) it means "mixed" as in champru, and I think once in a while find someone using it in Japanese. smile.gif

And, to answer anonymouse's dual episode title question, yes, just like Ghost in the Shell, at the begining of each episode of Samurai Champloo they show both English and Japanese titlles (well, in the U.S., anyway) and like Ghost in the Shell, these two titles are not related.

Ok, sort of.
For Samurai Champloo, (and, I think, to a degree for Ghost in the Shell also) often Japanese title seems to be more of an "abstract" expression of the episode, and the English title is slightly more descriptive of the episode, tho often still rather vegue, IMO.

And, on another side note, if I'm correct, I think word "Fullmetal" is more of a recently popularized American expression, and I might be wrong but usually the Japanese word "hagane" is translated as steal, as posted, but not translated as "fullmetal," at least in most of Japanse usage, other than anime and other art fields, as far as I know ...unless, the translater happen to be a FMA fan!! laugh.gif


Ok, sorry for all the OTs... Please resume the main discussion.. happy.gif
blackrider76
QUOTE(DZBrick6 @ Dec 23 2005, 10:05 PM) [snapback]333140[/snapback]

So, how does one go about explaining total changes in episode titles then? I can understand language customs governing name/gender, but I find it tough to believe that 'simple translation errors' could change an episode's title...I refer to #23, 'Fullmetal Heart' becoming 'Heart of Steel'...which is it or is this like that old White Zombie EP that ended up printing wrong and they didn't have the cash to fix it? I know, I'm REALLY reaching, but sometimes curiosity knows no bounds. I await any intelligent theories on this one...

"Hagane" in japanese means: steel
the title was supposed to be Steel Alchemist, but it sounded pretty bland, so they probabl made it Full Metal Alchemist.
thus making the episode, heart of steel, instead of full metal heart
Japert
I see full metal alchemist by animax and the translate for spanish is Marta.
easilydetachablesoul
I'm guessing the similar way the series title, "Hagane No Renkinjutsushi (Steel Alchemist)"ended up as Fullmetal Alchemist... Taking artistic liverty??

As a response to this, hagane, does mean steel, but the creators did a couple things, first they took hagaren, which means stubborn (there is a double barb when roy tells ed that his name is ironic), and kinda made it into full metal, which is why the show is often reffered to by that name. The messed around until they got hagane no renkinjitsushi.

About the Martyl thing, I belive that you guys are way to smart about it. Even for the sub they had many different subbers, and martyl's name changed from Martyl, to Mertyl to Martel, to Marta. I think the dubbers just took whatever one they liked best, which happened to be marta. Rizenbool is too messed up to talk about.

The thing that bugs me about the dub is that they changed Al's opening speach from:

"People cannot gain anything without sacrificing something. You must present something of equal value in order to gain something. That is the principal of equivilant trade in alchemy. We believed that was the truth of the world when we were young."

to

" Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of equivalent exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth."


Which one do you guys like better?
Wyrd_Raven
the translation of what Al says is basic semantics. they both MEAN the same thing but the second flows better to me somehow.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.