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The Thunder Alchemist
<Moved the thread from FMA Anime American Audience sub-forum to FMA Anime forum section front. 02/19/07 ~Tombow>


I've been seeing a lot of posts lately that, in essence, say homnculi aren't human so it's okay to kill them.

I find this disturbing; why wouldn't you consider homnculi at least equal to humans in the value of their lives?

They think, they are self-aware, they try to survive, they show human emotions, they aren't inherently evil (Greed and Wrath),


WHY SHOULDN"T THEY BE TREATED AS HUMANS EVEN IF THEY AREN'T?


Talkback: what do you think?
Molecular Alchemist
Ah-ha! At long last...someone brought up Descartes..hehehe. Well, the series says that it's the alchemist's job to remedy their mistakes...and it's up to them to decide if they want to kill the homunculus or not (ie..Izumi doesn't want to kill Wrath, etc...). It really depends on the homunculus, I think...you really just can't deal death generally in this catagory. If they act without remorse for their actions, then perhaps death is the way to go....though, I really don't think Greed had to die...other than for plot purposes... dry.gif . I don't think that people are saying that they should die because they ARN'T human...it's because they are killing people and spreading turmoil.....doesn't that deserve at least SOME form of punishment?
The Thunder Alchemist
I agree that Envy and the gang should be punished, but that was only part of my argument.

There have been posts that said Ed shouldn't feel bad about killing Greed purely because he wasn't human.

That's like saying, hypothetically, if you killed a human clone (a created human no?) that their death would mean less than the death of a "real" human.
Automne
You're right, what people don't understand is that homunculus act exactly like humans.

Ed only think about science when it comes to created humans and real humans, he doesn't even try to understand if the homunculus are actually better (Of course they are still cruel and they still kill) than some awful humans. And God, homunculus represent and are named after the seven sins, human's worst sins. They do act like humans no matter what they do. Sensenic pointed it out in a topic.

I laughed when Ed 'cried' after Greed's death. In some way, he finally understood and he will understand again at the end of the serie and that'll be even worse for him because...Nah, of course, no spoiler.
Nepharski
QUOTE(The Thunder Alchemist @ Nov 22 2005, 06:36 PM) [snapback]318487[/snapback]

I've been seeing a lot of posts lately that, in essence, say homnculi aren't human so it's okay to kill them.

I find this disturbing; why wouldn't you consider homnculi at least equal to humans in the value of their lives?

They think, they are self-aware, they try to survive, they show human emotions, they aren't inherently evil (Greed and Wrath),


WHY SHOULDN"T THEY BE TREATED AS HUMANS EVEN IF THEY AREN'T?


Talkback: what do you think?

They arn't inherently evil, per say, as much as they are sociopathic. Some are, of course, more cruel and dastardly then others. I mean, they do evil things, and have chosen an evil rode, but I'm sure a Homunculus could, potentially, be good if they tried.

I don't quite consider them Human, but for different reasons than you might think. They discard their humanity and become something along the lines of an abomination. A monster. Envy was a monster. So was Hitler.
Full Metal Elf
You know....this is something I think about a lot. In a sense aren't the Homunculi "human"?

Well...scientifically speaking...No. They are basically immortal, they were also created....not born through the natural process. But, they do act like humans....they have souls, maybe not the souls they were meant to have, but they have some sort of soul, the ability to think for themselves and others.

So....hmm....I have to really think about this, but it's interesting. happy.gif
theothersin
Well....alllow me a moment to think. -thinks- As in most any topic I have two opinions that support both ways leaving me neutral, but in this case, I believe the homonculi are indeed human...I think. I...I don't think that they aren't human, but I don't think they can qualify as human. I have two theories on the matter.

__Theory One____

I believe Wrath started human, a differently created human, but a human none the less. He was human until he became a "complete" homonculi eating the incomplete P.S. As for Greed, If you were to see him on the streets, possibly get to know him, you'd believe he was human, a greedy slimeball, but human all in all. Lust...I couldn't make up my mind on her if I tried.

I couldn't believe that the rest of homonculi are humans. Envy said, in lab 5 I believe, that they -they being the homonculi- did have emotions, but even with thier emotions I don not beliieve they can feel or as we can anyway. I don't believe it is human to kill with out feeling remorse. If they cannot feel as we can, then they cannot be human.

____Theory Two____

They are ALL humans, or to be considered so. They say it is unhuman to kill, rob, and the list continues. Homonculi do things that are unhuman, but there are humans who do theese things as well. We see it on the news everyday, there'd no way to not have seen anything about some one commiting a crime we've seen the homonculi commit. Therefore why shouldn't they be considered human?

I have more opinions and theories, but I'd end up rambling. So my conclusion, yes and no, but mostly yes.


Did that make any sense?
Fullmetal Fugazi
I dont consider them human
theothersin
QUOTE(Fullmetal Fugazi @ Nov 30 2005, 11:53 AM) [snapback]322023[/snapback]

I dont consider them human



Just blatently not human at all? I think everythings a little bit human. Otherwise there only animals in a story with lots personifacation content.
InsaneFangirl
No, I do not. They have a body similar to a human, but that is all.

A homunculous is a body and a mind. That's it. They have no soul. Without a soul, they are not human.
Tombow
QUOTE(InsaneFangirl @ Dec 5 2005, 11:51 PM) [snapback]325123[/snapback]

No, I do not. They have a body similar to a human, but that is all.

A homunculous is a body and a mind. That's it. They have no soul. Without a soul, they are not human.

Just like really advanced AI could well be considered sentient, and could have personalities, but could never be "human" because they don't have souls??
(Thinking about "Data." happy.gif)
theothersin
QUOTE(InsaneFangirl @ Dec 5 2005, 10:51 PM) [snapback]325123[/snapback]

No, I do not. They have a body similar to a human, but that is all.

A homunculous is a body and a mind. That's it. They have no soul. Without a soul, they are not human.


Yes, but animals aren't human. And they have souls.



Antimony
The definition of a human in Fullmetal Alchemist is pretty broad. Al is just a soul inside a hunk of steel, Greed's gang is made up of chimeras, and a malformed monstrosity resulted from the brothers' attempt at human transmutation, yet they are all treated as if they were human. Why should the homunculi be so different from that idea?

The homunculi talk about this very issue both in the anime and the manga. When Roy battles against Lust(Chapters 38 and 39) she makes a good argument for her kind being like humans. "Our appearance is no different from yours and we also have five senses, emotions, and affections for our parent who created us. We are humans." So does Lust consider herself and her brethren to be human despite their many superhuman qualities?

Despite the shapeshifting and regenerating that they do they are still mortal creatures that can get hurt, feel pain and die. Greed wanted immortality because he knew he would die someday. Envy says he doesn't like fighting because he doesn't like being hurt. Gluttony is depressed and even cries over Lust's death. The homunculi fear death, which to me is a very natural human emotion.

They lack any sense of morality and I blame this mainly on their upbringing. Father uses his children to do his dirty work for him and that includes murder. After hundreds of years of killing in his name they've been desensitized to the point that they take pleasure in it. They are fiercely loyal to Father and obey him unquestioningly, with the exception of Greed. He is the only one who left Father and he met a horrible fate for it. Disobeying Father is a very bad idea. Probably a major reason why the others have stayed faithful. But if Greed could turn against him who knows if the others won't?

So yes, in that sense the homonculi could be considered humans. Thank you for reading my philosophical psychobabble. wink.gif
theothersin
QUOTE(Antimony @ Dec 6 2005, 06:25 PM) [snapback]325438[/snapback]

The definition of a human in Fullmetal Alchemist is pretty broad. Al is just a soul inside a hunk of steel, Greed's gang is made up of chimeras, and a malformed monstrosity resulted from the brothers' attempt at human transmutation, yet they are all treated as if they were human. Why should the homunculi be so different from that idea?

The homunculi talk about this very issue both in the anime and the manga. When Roy battles against Lust(Chapters 38 and 39) she makes a good argument for her kind being like humans. "Our appearance is no different from yours and we also have five senses, emotions, and affections for our parent who created us. We are humans." So does Lust consider herself and her brethren to be human despite their many superhuman qualities?

Despite the shapeshifting and regenerating that they do they are still mortal creatures that can get hurt, feel pain and die. Greed wanted immortality because he knew he would die someday. Envy says he doesn't like fighting because he doesn't like being hurt. Gluttony is depressed and even cries over Lust's death. The homunculi fear death, which to me is a very natural human emotion.

They lack any sense of morality and I blame this mainly on their upbringing. Father uses his children to do his dirty work for him and that includes murder. After hundreds of years of killing in his name they've been desensitized to the point that they take pleasure in it. They are fiercely loyal to Father and obey him unquestioningly, with the exception of Greed. He is the only one who left Father and he met a horrible fate for it. Disobeying Father is a very bad idea. Probably a major reason why the others have stayed faithful. But if Greed could turn against him who knows if the others won't?

So yes, in that sense the homonculi could be considered humans. Thank you for reading my philosophical psychobabble. wink.gif


Exactly. I was trying to say something to that extent, but my flu infected brain is making thinking hard to do, and hurtful. -quite literally-

More Rambling And Crack- Pot Theories:

They most definately have some sort of soul replacement-thing. Because, as stated earlier, they have personalities. In this I have another theory: The Theory of Essence.

Somewhere in the series was clearly stated that in order to -uh live you need all parts of the mind, body, soul triangle. Otherwise the triangle colapses and the being can't live.

It is a belief of mine that a soul is not just a soul, but has elements to it, such as the mind and body is made of different elements. In my theory the soul has a element called essence. Essence is what keeps the strong bond between the three parts of the triangle, and the part that cannot -erm be compleatly taken from the body. Until the being dies and the mind, body, soul triangle is broken. Essence working together with all three elements creates things like emotions or personalities. This states that every living being has essence.

This brings Al (among other beings) and his suit of armour into question. It's simple really, the element of body was substituted with the armour. He cannot feel of course, but a soul still occupies it making it a body. Now, seeing how essence links all three parts together it has essence of the mind and original body. Through alchemy Ed managed to retrieve Al's soul along with it's essence. (I'll just call essence element E from here on.) When the soul was bound to the armour so was element E.

Element E, bound to the new body had to stimulate the triangle before Al died. Using what it had from before hand it was able to substitute the element of mind and link thought and body together with soul. However not having a, for lack of better term, "real" mind made it unstable. Hence why Al is in danger of fading from existence. If the Element E. cannot make up for the missing mind or subsitute body then the triangle will proceed to collapse and the being will die.

Understand? Now I can explain the homonculi.

Element E., as stated from before, cannot compleatly leave the body until death. Whille attemting to reserect someone you are trying to bring back the soul which is already linked to the two other elements by essence. As we know homonculi don't have souls. Now if they don't have that element to the triangle, wouldn't the being die? No, because Element E. was originally linked to all three parts of the mind/ body/ soul triangle, still existed in the new body. Element E. substituted for the soul and linked the mind and body together. Like Al at this point the being would be unstable. This is where the Philosophers Stone comes in. With it's alchemic powers it could stablize the reaction to the attempted reserection. This is only possible because alchemy was used for the attempted reserection. If something else was used the P.S. would be useless.

The newly created homonculi, stablized by the P.S. would still lack the soul making it un-human scientifically, but in the same way Al's unhuman. Still part of the soul, the essence of the soul remained in the new body making it functional and able to have emotions. So as Al they feel like humans and act like humans, the beings just lack certian elements to the triangle of mind, soul, and body.

____

Finished rambling. The theory's not so crack-pot but still a little out there. But it explains things well enough.
Nega FMA
Thats some great thinking you guys are doing. Your definitly thinking outside the box and taking the story further than possibly the show and manga itself. I believe the humonculi are still human because they recall things from they're past lives and can still cry,bleed etc. And i believe they still can love even without a soul. Just look at Greed and Lust. Lust even without a soul recalls past things of when she had a soul and can love even as a humonculi. How do you eat without a soul? The Humoncuil also seem to sleep as i've seen Gluttony sleep in one episode. The only things i see them as in not human are they're abnormal abilties and how they're bodies possibly function after many years. As you can tell they're bodies have the same things a human beings bodies have on the inside as we learned during Ed's fight with Greed.

As for Humunculi surviving in society? I think they can. Greed looked like he was,Lust,Sloth and Wrath could probably pull it off,Envy and Gluttony are the only ones i worry about because Glutonny looks abnormal and deformed and he would be goinging around eating people while Envy seems mentally unstable even though he looks human too.
InsaneFangirl
QUOTE(theothersin @ Dec 6 2005, 05:55 PM) [snapback]325377[/snapback]

QUOTE(InsaneFangirl @ Dec 5 2005, 10:51 PM) [snapback]325123[/snapback]

No, I do not. They have a body similar to a human, but that is all.

A homunculous is a body and a mind. That's it. They have no soul. Without a soul, they are not human.


Yes, but animals aren't human. And they have souls.



That's true. Hmmm...however, I was asked if they were HUMAN. They are not animals, or humans.
chaz8705
Ok, to be human, you have to have a soul. This raises the question, what is a soul and how do you know if you have it. I believe that anything created artifically cannot have a soul. Homunculi are artificially created and so they do not have a soul and so cannot be human. They are basically images of humans, yet they are just images. [spoiler]After Edward and Al fail to transmute their mother, Edward says that there is nothing in the world that can be traded for a human soul. So only a natural born human can have a soul and since a soul is required to be human, the homunculi are not human.[/spoiler]
Antimony
QUOTE(chaz8705 @ Dec 7 2005, 04:45 PM) [snapback]325725[/snapback]

Ok, to be human, you have to have a soul. This raises the question, what is a soul and how do you know if you have it. I believe that anything created artifically cannot have a soul. Homunculi are artificially created and so they do not have a soul and so cannot be human. They are basically images of humans, yet they are just images. [spoiler]After Edward and Al fail to transmute their mother, Edward says that there is nothing in the world that can be traded for a human soul. So only a natural born human can have a soul and since a soul is required to be human, the homunculi are not human.[/spoiler]


You may have a point about them as they are in the anime because of their creation. A homunculus is not the same as the person they were revived from. They may look alike and share the same memories but they cannot have that person's soul. For example, a homunculus of Al would look like Al and have Al's memories but it would not really be the true Al because it wouln't have his soul.

However the manga gives them a much different origin. A human body is built around and powered by a Philosopher's Stone. The Stone is made from the souls of living humans and all of the Sins have one of their own. I think for the homunculi the stone plays the role that a normal human being's soul would. A normal soul can animate the body and give it emotion, personality and reasoning ability. That's how it is with normal humans and 'disembodied' humans like Al, Barry the Chopper and the Slicer Brothers. The homunculi also show emotions, personalities and reasoning abilities so we can assume that they must have souls or something akin to them.

But a Phil. Stone has numerous souls inside of it which have been stolen from their original bodies. How do all those souls cooperate with each other to keep a single body functioning properly? Some of them must be more dominant then the others and make up the 'host' body's persona, leaving the weaker ones to be used up as energy in regenerations or special abilities. The result is a unique new lifeform that is both human and something entirely different.

(Gosh, maybe I should make this my senior thesis. Every post I make in this thread could be an essay for a Philosophy class. XD)
InsaneFangirl
QUOTE(chaz8705 @ Dec 7 2005, 03:45 PM) [snapback]325725[/snapback]

Ok, to be human, you have to have a soul. This raises the question, what is a soul and how do you know if you have it. I believe that anything created artifically cannot have a soul. Homunculi are artificially created and so they do not have a soul and so cannot be human. They are basically images of humans, yet they are just images. [spoiler]After Edward and Al fail to transmute their mother, Edward says that there is nothing in the world that can be traded for a human soul. So only a natural born human can have a soul and since a soul is required to be human, the homunculi are not human.[/spoiler]



Exactly my point. Thank you.
The Thunder Alchemist
The word soul is being thrown around an awful lot, but truly what is a soul? Theothersin and others have been talking about the possible parts and aspects of a soul, but what is it?

Since the beginning of time people, from the lowly to the mighty, have been trying to define the human "soul." Man has looked at animals and seen how are both unlike and unlike. We are different; we are alone. How did we become different? Did we aquire a "soul" through divine design? Have we simply ascended above rocks, plants, animals? Do lower forms of life have a soul too? If so, why aren't they like us? Difficult questions all.

We define ourselves by our souls, without ever truly knowing what they are. So how can we assume the Homnculi to be unhuman without knowing what it means to be human.

... Ugh, I'm thinking way to hard blink.gif

PS: KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS! This discussion topic is doing great!
Sleeping Forest
eh, no...they WERE human at one time, but not anymore..
ed's numbuh 1 fan
QUOTE(The Thunder Alchemist @ Dec 8 2005, 11:56 AM) [snapback]326174[/snapback]

The word soul is being thrown around an awful lot, but truly what is a soul? Theothersin and others have been talking about the possible parts and aspects of a soul, but what is it?

Since the beginning of time people, from the lowly to the mighty, have been trying to define the human "soul." Man has looked at animals and seen how are both unlike and unlike. We are different; we are alone. How did we become different? Did we aquire a "soul" through divine design? Have we simply ascended above rocks, plants, animals? Do lower forms of life have a soul too? If so, why aren't they like us? Difficult questions all.

We define ourselves by our souls, without ever truly knowing what they are. So how can we assume the Homnculi to be unhuman without knowing what it means to be human.

... Ugh, I'm thinking way to hard blink.gif

PS: KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK GUYS! This discussion topic is doing great!

wow thats confusing but very good and thought through!

i don't really consider the homunculi to be human, i haven't read all the manga my self but what Antimony said did sound right , the manga explains it better... i'm not that good at philosophy...
Nepharski
Ghost in the Shell theory, anyone?

For those of you unfamiliar, the theory basically states that an artificially created being could potentially grow sentinent. A soul, if you will.
wolfspirit
I think it's half and half. They are kinda human but not totally. They're human enough to be concidered it in my eyes. I feel rather sorry for them sometimes. They didn't ask to be "born" and are damned anyway. I call them human, at least enough.
Philosopher's Stone
Easy Answer: No. I'm picky about who I let into my species. A handful of aliens that run around getting cities destroyed and corrupting the military (those are my tax dollars dammit!) aren't my kind of people. Either way, they're criminals, it matters little if they have any "soul" to speak of. Kill them and we won't have those to deal with those troubling philosophical issues, thusly pushing society back into relative order and harmony.

See? Wasn't so hard was it? As interesting as all that "Ghost in the Shell" stuff is, I'll go for the solution that can:
a- Keep me on moral/ethical high ground.
b- Prevent me from trying to talk beings that considers me to be just another specimen of the inferior homo-sapiens.

Edit: Also, to the guy above me--I like your angsty avatar. I think you are dark and mysterious because of your brooding fixation with suicide. Mmm...angst.
theothersin
QUOTE(Philosopher's Stone @ Jan 31 2006, 09:46 PM) [snapback]345403[/snapback]

Easy Answer: No. I'm picky about who I let into my species. A handful of aliens that run around getting cities destroyed and corrupting the military (those are my tax dollars dammit!) aren't my kind of people. Either way, they're criminals, it matters little if they have any "soul" to speak of. Kill them and we won't have those to deal with those troubling philosophical issues, thusly pushing society back into relative order and harmony.

See? Wasn't so hard was it? As interesting as all that "Ghost in the Shell" stuff is, I'll go for the solution that can:
a- Keep me on moral/ethical high ground.
b- Prevent me from trying to talk beings that considers me to be just another specimen of the inferior homo-sapiens.

Edit: Also, to the guy above me--I like your angsty avatar. I think you are dark and mysterious because of your brooding fixation with suicide. Mmm...angst.


I admire how you could be so blatent. My phillosiphical thinking gets in the way of my logical thinking on topics like this....hence all of my theories.

Speaking of which, I wonderexcatly how sick I was when I wrote them, because I sound like a idiot half the time. Except for the Element E stuff, I'm going to use that in something........

Oh, anyways...I can't make my mind up on the topic....half says yes, half says no, and some says maybe.
Philosopher's Stone
Even Easier: Call them what you want. They feel emotions and they arguably can be communicated with, for whatever that is worth. They have quantum characteristics, in that, they both do and don't have souls/humanity. In other words, they only have so much value and significance that you choose to ascribe to them and in how you choose to interact with them. In other words, you define what they are to you and nothing more. If you believe that the soul arises as a characteristic that arises as a summation of biochemical processes, then the issue is more about what you decide you can accept (and by extension, society as a whole). If of course, you believe in an abstracted soul that has little interaction with perceivable matter, and is original and sacred (possibly God-given, if you believe in that sort of thing), then your answer is clear: they're walking blasphemies that should be wiped out with flaming swords and a grim Inquisition (Fun!).

I know the society that Ed belongs isn't ready to induct escaped scientific faliures as productive citizens, much less accept their existence. Maybe if we had some sort of orphanages for recently created homunculi? That way you can reform them so they don't get the sudden urge to weave a conspiracy spanning the march of centuries and several human govenmental agencies. We can also air a special on Oprah to promote awareness and tolerence of Homunculi. But the real issue here is, can society afford to pay the cost in the immortal souls and ecological disaster that will need to be payed in order to produce sustenance for homunculi? Or will the homunculi have to go on a Vegan diet? (go to www.Oprah.com to vote in the poll!)
TheToeTag
I consiter them human just as much as i do Al......to take a line from envy....We wernt created by anyone..we were BORN
The homunculi came from the same place that Als body and soul went in ep1...when you deal in human transmution its takes body and soul....bodys cant be changed they are what they are..yet souls are what you make them so a soul lost can be made evil and uncareing when it is takeing and put into a homunculi that is being born.

Good-Evil what ever they are human....if not you can not say Al is human seeing how that are mostly the same ppl traped in a body not there own and wish to be human AGAIN

O and dont forget..wrath wasnt always evil wink.gif...
joletaro
From my point of view the homunculis are part humans, part puppets.
There where created by a human being just like all of us, so therefore
they can be considered human, or humanoids to be exact.
Colette
*It was on the thrid page, so it's not really reviving a dead thread, right?*


I don't think they're human, but I honestly think they have souls. If they only had a body and mind, they'd just be puppets with no personality. (Besides, no human can extend they're nails, change form, ect. That's the main unhuman thing about them)



Take Wrath for example. Before he ate those red stones, he was a sweet little kid, who seemed very human. After he ate the red stones, he wasn't. I think the red stones corrupt the soul. If you puke them up again, the damage has been done.[spoiler]But in the movie, he gives his life to Al so he can see Izumi again.[/spoiler] No way in hell would a thing without a soul do that.

And take Lust and Greed for example. Both rebelled against Dante. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't have a soul. Like I said earlier, they'd just be puppets if they didn't have a soul. Lust saw Scar getting shot and retaliated by stabbing the soilders. Maybe she would have done that without a soul, but not for the same reaons. Greed thought very fondly of his subordinates, in both the anime and manga. In the anime, he told them not to get involved, because it was his problem. Remember when he finally left with Al and Marta, the look on his face? Nobody without a soul would mourn for their friends.


I think it's kinda like the black mages from FF9. ( A LOT like the black mages from FF9) They aren't human, but have souls.



But that's just my opinion.
Kazuka
They could be considered either human or just a copy. The only thing that seperates them from humans. Is that humans age and they do not. They have powers we could only dream of. They can feel human emotions but can they really comprehend what they are doing? Do they really care that they killed a thousand people or inside does it really affect them like it would a human? This is a topic that is not just black and white. It would take a lot of time to determine if they are in fact enough like us to be considered human. But i dont think that there lives should just be thrown away.
sweety_pie

The real question is are they human. They have pain, so they must be. But do they really feel actual pain? Yes I think they do, I just don't think they comprehend that pain the right way. It has a bad affect on them, and sometimes they act wrong on that pain, and don't realize it's wrong.

I think they have a soul, because if they didn't they wouldn't be able to have different personalities. They feel emotions, and memories, so they most have a soul to feel those two things.I believe they have a soul trapped in their undying bodies.

I think they're so easy to turn evil/bad because they give up hope on ever seeing their friends and family again. As humunculi they don't die like humans, so when their family dies they won't be able to see them, and they can't do alchemy to bring them back, like they were. And all the pain builds up, and they release it wrong.
Nicoli Flamel
<Merging this "Could Hohenhim Be Wrong About The Homucli?" thread with the following 10 posts to " They Think, Therefore They Are?, Do you consider homunculi to be human?" thread. 02/19/07 ~Tombow>

Do forgive if I have this in the wrong place. Please do move it then, but after fully watching the series I have a number of questions regarding the Homuculi and exactly why it is that people keep saying that they have no soul. I guess the reason this bothers me so much is because Al is considered to have one, yet Wrath who started out pretty much pure, doesn't. I hope someone can help me out on this one becuase I'm starting to think that Hohenhime and Ed were wrong.

To start with, Envy says that the Homucli need the red stones to be alive. Now if that's true, how is it that Wrath survived for as long as he did and aged? Izumi says, "he's the same age.." as her child would be. If it's becuase of Ed's Arm and Leg that's one thing. But it doesn't seem to me to be that case. Then you have the fact that he's made of his own remains. But something about that doesn't seem right either. Also, when you look up about a homuculius, apparently it takes them 14 days to form. So out of curiosity how is it that Wrath manged to form himself without the stones? And was Envy just buying into Dante's retoric when he said that they were needed?

Secondly, according to three dictonaries that I have a soul is

QUOTE
The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.

And

the emotional part of human nature; the seat of the feelings or sentiments.
And also

QUOTE
the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.


Alright if this is the case, and a soul is basically the human emotions and memories of a person trapped in flesh. Haven't the Homuculi shown that they have this? For example. Lust's desire to become human. There were points that she could have killed or hurt someone but she didn't. Wrath is another. Not only did he show he had emotions, but showed fear, careing, and well lets face it, he was innocent till Ed went all Jerk on him and later when Envy screwed with him. I mean he spat out the stone at first and cried while he was eating it. Clearly showing that something more then just a souless being was in there. He had memories and was making them too. Just like Al was.

Dante said that they have no emotions. Envy showed his in getting angry and his comments. Gluttony was happy, sad, perpexed...etc. So why is it that people write off the homuculi as having no soul? If anything Nina's the one with no soul, they're animated and full of life. YOu have to kill them. Nina's a doll, there's nothing in there. So how come Al is considered "Human" but Wrath isn't?

One other thing. The homucli are born from our sin, so say Hohenhime. Alright, but they're born as pretty much children that need to be taught. Wrath is innocent before he eats the stones. I think that's where the sin comes from. Not from their birth. We're the ones that abandon them becuase of our fears. Yes Sloth was a mess when she was born. But she was able within hours to pull herself around. Wrath eats food. So do the others. I think they even sleep. So why are they considered in human? Out side of Wrath having the arm and leg, it seems that if the Homuculi don't eat the stones they don't seem to gain super human powers. So that begs the question, if left alone, could they live normal human life? I mean yes they can't have kids, but I don't think someone like Envy would want a bunch of kids running around. And don't get me started on Greed and the idea of freedom. Even he when he fought Ed seemed slightly different after he threw up the stones.

These are just some thoughts.

NF
JoshP1389
):

D:

DX

DX

Way too many plotholes.
Sin Of Envy
*nervous smile* Eh-ehehe....

QUOTE
To start with, Envy says that the Homucli need the red stones to be alive. Now if that's true, how is it that Wrath survived for as long as he did and aged? Izumi says, "he's the same age.." as her child would be. If it's becuase of Ed's Arm and Leg that's one thing. But it doesn't seem to me to be that case. Then you have the fact that he's made of his own remains. But something about that doesn't seem right either. Also, when you look up about a homuculius, apparently it takes them 14 days to form. So out of curiosity how is it that Wrath manged to form himself without the stones?


I'm sure he did find something on that island. He can do alchemy anyway....
What Izumi meant is that he's the same age as her dead child. Poor [emo] woman had to count years of her dead child and somehow, she thought that child was her son.

QUOTE
And was Envy just buying into Dante's retoric when he said that they were needed?


Episode 49, Envy knows Dante's plan and he don't care as long as humans suffer.

QUOTE
So how come Al is considered "Human" but Wrath isn't?


Because Al has a soul, and homunculi don't. They don't have emotions such as love or care, they're like dolls who feel and do however their Master desire.


QUOTE
So that begs the question, if left alone, could they live normal human life?


As long as they have the red stones to keep them in life, yes. But they are not humans like we are!

I know this didn't help much, but I suggest Wikipedia for more info and I'm sure someone else here will be able to answer better...

Oh and welcome!
Popogeejo
They don't have traditional souls. Those black beings beyond the gate are basicly the homunculus souls/minds. (Thats how I interpreted it anyways...)
MonsterEnvy
Well, you can't look too deeply into alchemy. Both the manga and the anime differ greatly from the accepted methods of alchemy in the 'real world,' but the anime differs even more than the manga. As for the homunculi- they would probably die without red stone after a period of time. They might be able to live as long as ten years or so, but they,re still living on red stone. It's the energy they got from the body bits that were left in the gate by their creators. That's why they still needed to kill the homunculi once again after they made them throw up the stones. Wrath also had extra energy and perhaps more of an ability to gain energy from normal sustenance than most homunculi because not only was he transmuted from his original body, he also had Ed's arm and leg.
Triple_Soul_Alchemist
...GWAH. Too many plotholes, too much logic in one sitting...

QUOTE(popogeejo @ Sep 25 2006, 03:36 PM) [snapback]451228[/snapback]

They don't have traditional souls. Those black beings beyond the gate are basicly the homunculus souls/minds. (Thats how I interpreted it anyways...)


^ I'm just gonna go and agree with him. I'm too lazy and stupid right now to type a logical response.

But you mispelled homunculi and Hohenheim. >> Just sayin'.
Buddi-chan
Well, this is my theory...

So homunculi are made from alchemy right? And Hohenheim explains to Ed in episode 50 that the lives of those who've died on our side of the gate are the energy that is used in their alchemy. Those human's lives, their souls, pass through the gate. So my theory is that the homunculi don't have a 'soul' per se, but instead a collection of the energy from the human's souls that fuels their body like a soul.

Honestly, I think a lot of the homunculi's problems arn't because they're souless beings, but more because they're told they're souless beings. As we saw with Sloth, the homunculi are a mess when they're first created. Dante took them in and 'fixed them up,' for a lack of a better term. Think about it. If someone helps you out when you have no hope, that person's gonna have a big affect on you, no? Hohenheim even says that they're innocent when they're first created; it's only after they injest the red stones that they lose it. The red stones corrupt them, which I will also say is partly because they know they're human lives. Wouldn't it freak you out to be eating something like that? (I hope so...)

Yes, there's a lot of psychologicalness in my explanation, deal with it. XP It makes sense, since homunculi are supposed to have the same biological make-up as a human mostly, so their brain would probably be affected the same way a normal human's would.

I like what you said, MonsterEnvy, about how the homuculi would die without the stone after a while. Makes sense as to why Greed and Lust would give and let themselves be killed so easily after they lost their stones.

End theory-ing. Feel free to nit-pick it if you feel the need. I'm sure I misses some important plot point that completely contradicts what I just said. And yes, this explanation is filling in plot holes, but I enjoy doing that. biggrin.gif
Nicoli Flamel
Since Nit picking happens to be my specialty, Buddi chan, *nitpicks*

QUOTE
So homunculi are made from alchemy right? And Hohenheim explains to Ed in episode 50 that the lives of those who've died on our side of the gate are the energy that is used in their alchemy. Those human's lives, their souls, pass through the gate. So my theory is that the homunculi don't have a 'soul' per se, but instead a collection of the energy from the human's souls that fuels their body like a soul.


That actually makes sense since I've been wondering what, other then the Alchemy we fuel in their world. If that is the case then where do their memories come from? I know Al's are all his own, and his soul holds onto them, so if the energy from humans here fuels the Hommucli, would that energy store the memories that they create? They have those of the dead person right? How is that possible? It doesn't seem to me that a person can implant the memories. I know that Ed showed Al that he didn't implant his memories, so do the Hommucli then have some rements of the soul of the dead person? Sloth said to Ed that if the memories kept coming she would learn to love them, and she has to prove that she's not their mother becuase the memories were making her love them.


QUOTE
Honestly, I think a lot of the homunculi's problems arn't because they're souless beings, but more because they're told they're souless beings. As we saw with Sloth, the homunculi are a mess when they're first created. Dante took them in and 'fixed them up,' for a lack of a better term. Think about it. If someone helps you out when you have no hope, that person's gonna have a big affect on you, no? Hohenheim even says that they're innocent when they're first created; it's only after they injest the red stones that they lose it. The red stones corrupt them, which I will also say is partly because they know they're human lives. Wouldn't it freak you out to be eating something like that? (I hope so...)


Agreed. That's one of the reasons why I find them fasinating is becuase it's clear that there's more going on with them then what the Characters (Ed, Al, their dad or Dante) realize. You're right on the freaking out part, because Wrath started to cry while he was eating the stones. Envy says he was raised on them. But I'm just wondering, suppose Dante didn't find her, Sloth. Could she have pulled herself together? Becuase she was dragging heself and that at least shows that there was something going on there. That she was pulling herself together in some way. Other wise how could she move out of the house? Also agreed that there's probably a lot of trama to them.

One thing I keep thinking about with the homuculis is that they start off almost like babies, and the humans that created them treat them as older beings. They might have the memories but it takes more then that to make them a whole person. You wouldn't just leave a baby out on it's own after being born, I think it's the same with the homunculis. They're like babies or children when they are born and need someone to take care of them. Which is a good segway into MonsterEnvy's comment.

QUOTE
Well, you can't look too deeply into alchemy. Both the manga and the anime differ greatly from the accepted methods of alchemy in the 'real world,' but the anime differs even more than the manga. As for the homunculi- they would probably die without red stone after a period of time. They might be able to live as long as ten years or so, but they,re still living on red stone. It's the energy they got from the body bits that were left in the gate by their creators. That's why they still needed to kill the homunculi once again after they made them throw up the stones. Wrath also had extra energy and perhaps more of an ability to gain energy from normal sustenance than most homunculi because not only was he transmuted from his original body, he also had Ed's arm and leg.


Wrath had not taken red stones in two years. We also know that he's been living on that island for several years prior to the others finding him. If it's the energy from bits of the person, what about things like Al's memories and such? As I recall, Greed was trapped in the array for 130 years. Apparently though it doesn't have to be the creator that does the killing. Gluttony ate food, Lust did too, and Envy drank coffee. Wouldn't you think they were gaining energy more off that? That's another thing that has me curious, could a homunculi form itself properly with just natural food? Ignoring Wrath's extra arm and leg, he was able to keep his form after they wer gone, and he did loose all his stones I think in the anime. Or did I miss something there?


@Sin of Envy
QUOTE
Because Al has a soul, and homunculi don't. They don't have emotions such as love or care, they're like dolls who feel and do however their Master desire.


Wrath loved his mother, and Sloth. Ed said when Sloth died that Wrath was crying for him as well because he couldn't.

Sloth, before she died she told Ed and Al to look after one another. Also she stated that in time, becuase of the memories, she would learn to love the boys as her own children.

Gluttony, was possesive of Lust. He was worried about her most of the time.

Envy as much as he would deny it, there were points that he did actually show he cared. Best example is when he looses it and got scared of the Gate itself. If he didn't care about things, why is he getting so pissed off about Hohenheim? Or for that matter, if he was a cruel as were told, why just shoot Hughs once? Why not show that cruelty and shoot him a few more?

Greed, his men, he told them to leave and stay safe.

Lust, that one episode, not to mention with scar, later with Ed and even to a point with Wrath, Gluttony, and Even Envy.

Pride, I think in some way he did care about his son. Even if he did kill him, there was something I think a kin to a struggle in him before he actually killed the boy.


I'm sure there are other moments that they did show they could care and love. (side note, I did forget about what Envy said in that Episode. Thanks for the reminder.) biggrin.gif

@Triple_Soul_Alchemist Thankyou for the spelling correction. I'll try to keep that in mind. *blush*
Buddi-chan
QUOTE(Nicoli Flamel @ Sep 26 2006, 02:09 AM) [snapback]451523[/snapback]

QUOTE
So homunculi are made from alchemy right? And Hohenheim explains to Ed in episode 50 that the lives of those who've died on our side of the gate are the energy that is used in their alchemy. Those human's lives, their souls, pass through the gate. So my theory is that the homunculi don't have a 'soul' per se, but instead a collection of the energy from the human's souls that fuels their body like a soul.


That actually makes sense since I've been wondering what, other then the Alchemy we fuel in their world. If that is the case then where do their memories come from? I know Al's are all his own, and his soul holds onto them, so if the energy from humans here fuels the Hommucli, would that energy store the memories that they create? They have those of the dead person right? How is that possible? It doesn't seem to me that a person can implant the memories. I know that Ed showed Al that he didn't implant his memories, so do the Hommucli then have some rements of the soul of the dead person? Sloth said to Ed that if the memories kept coming she would learn to love them, and she has to prove that she's not their mother becuase the memories were making her love them.


My explanation for the memories is this: A homunculus supposed to be a perfect replica of the person who was supposed to be resurected, right? Well, considering that memories are physically rooted in the brain, it's possible that after a while, the memories can be re-awoken if the homunculi are exposed to a stimulus that reminds them of the memories. Something as simple as a sight, smell, sound or feeling could do this. For example, Lust remembering her past when she met Lujon. Lujon was a lot like Scar's brother, and the resemblances reawoken the memories.

I hope that makes sense. I don't really know how else to explain it without getting psychlogical. If you know anything about psychology or how the brain works, let me know and I'll explain it more.

As to why Al still has memories even though he's just a soul (cause I realize that's a hole in my theory), I believe it's because the memories may also be 'stored' in the soul, but maybe in a more simplisic form (which is why ArmorAl has a difficult time remembering some memories well). Our memories are what shape our character, moral and otherwise, and if that is what our soul is essentially, then it makes sense that our memories must also be there. Of course, there's no way to prove this, since we have no way of studying souls, if they even exist.

Again, comments are welcome. All this theorizing is fun... laugh.gif
Nicoli Flamel
QUOTE
My explanation for the memories is this: A homunculus supposed to be a perfect replica of the person who was supposed to be resurected, right? Well, considering that memories are physically rooted in the brain, it's possible that after a while, the memories can be re-awoken if the homunculi are exposed to a stimulus that reminds them of the memories. Something as simple as a sight, smell, sound or feeling could do this. For example, Lust remembering her past when she met Lujon. Lujon was a lot like Scar's brother, and the resemblances reawoken the memories.


But wasn't Trisa/Sloth's memories awoken when she saw Ed at the start? Humm, she said that Lujon was her only mistake. However was that the start of when she started to be repelled at wanting to follow Dante's orders? If so then can it be said that the Homunculi have a sense of independence?

QUOTE
I hope that makes sense. I don't really know how else to explain it without getting psychlogical. If you know anything about psychology or how the brain works, let me know and I'll explain it more.


Year of Psych sophmore year of college. I think I can handle what you throw at me. laugh.gif

QUOTE
As to why Al still has memories even though he's just a soul (cause I realize that's a hole in my theory), I believe it's because the memories may also be 'stored' in the soul, but maybe in a more simplisic form (which is why ArmorAl has a difficult time remembering some memories well). Our memories are what shape our character, moral and otherwise, and if that is what our soul is essentially, then it makes sense that our memories must also be there. Of course, there's no way to prove this, since we have no way of studying souls, if they even exist.


So then in that case the whole "They have no soul" line is bunk. Because if the soul is our memories and our emotions, then the Homunculi all have those. So how then can the "Humans" go around saying that they can't be around if they have what is very similar to a soul?

QUOTE
Again, comments are welcome. All this theorizing is fun... laugh.gif


Heh, yes it is! biggrin.gif
Buddi-chan
Okay cool. *puts on psych hat*

So memories are (according to psychologists) stored as neurons in our brains, correct? And the reason our memories fade is because the synapses between the neurons fades (you know what I mean right? I can't remember the exact term for a lot of this). However, it is possible for these synapses to be 'repaired' if one is exposed to the proper stimulus. So it may be possible that this is the case for the homunculi.

Wow. That sounds far less credible now that I read it. XD I learned this stuff about a year ago, and it seems some of my synapses are weak... laugh.gif

And just so you know, I agree with you that Hohenheim/everyone who said homunculi don't have a soul is wrong. They have some semblance of a soul, though if it's 'enough' of a soul, or the 'right kind' of soul to be considered human is another story. Wasn't it Lust that said that maybe homunclui were the person who was supposed to be resurrected, but just not complete? Maybe she was right (or whoever said that. For some reason Lust is sticking in my head at the moment). My reason for this belief is because I find it hard to believe that such passionate characters such as Lust and Greed have no soul. Just doesn't seem possible, or right, for that matter. But I'm probably just biased because Lust and Greed are two of my favorite characters, heh.
Nicoli Flamel
Nah, being biased is cool. Why I was disapponted so much with the treament of wrath in the movie. But that will be saved for later. tongue.gif

QUOTE
So memories are (according to psychologists) stored as neurons in our brains, correct? And the reason our memories fade is because the synapses between the neurons fades (you know what I mean right? I can't remember the exact term for a lot of this). However, it is possible for these synapses to be 'repaired' if one is exposed to the proper stimulus. So it may be possible that this is the case for the homunculi.

Wow. That sounds far less credible now that I read it. XD I learned this stuff about a year ago, and it seems some of my synapses are weak...


*nods* Correct! And neither can I but I know what you mean. And that is an excellent theory because of how the memories in the Homunculi worked. But can the same be said of the emotions? Sloth said that she could love the boys. If this is the case then would it be fair to say that the Homunculi's feelings aren't just memory based situations but real emotions? Wrath feeling close to Sloth and to his mother, and crying later over Sloth's death, and so on. If that's so then when Ed kills Greed and sloth, could it be said that there was a battle in them to actually attack? Assuming that the stones are the reason for their agressive behavior, would it be a safe bet then to say that if the stones were not there. Sloth would most likely not attack Ed or Al? And for that matter, maybe it's just me, but was she holding back? We know what she can do killing that one guy, and Ed was moving around, but still.

QUOTE
And just so you know, I agree with you that Hohenheim/everyone who said homunculi don't have a soul is wrong. They have some semblance of a soul, though if it's 'enough' of a soul, or the 'right kind' of soul to be considered human is another story. Wasn't it Lust that said that maybe homunclui were the person who was supposed to be resurrected, but just not complete? Maybe she was right (or whoever said that. For some reason Lust is sticking in my head at the moment). My reason for this belief is because I find it hard to believe that such passionate characters such as Lust and Greed have no soul. Just doesn't seem possible, or right, for that matter. But I'm probably just biased because Lust and Greed are two of my favorite characters, heh.


*grins* Thanks for that! Most people who I talk to about this think that the Hhhenheim is correct in his theory. "He's been around for so long how can he be wrong." -__- Possiblity, but would it be that having the dead persons bones or most of it be the completion? That's their weakness right, a part of their past self. So if that's the case, then can the homunculi become a true human if they were to join with the dead body like Wrath did? Izumi never quiet gave him the chance after she freaked and stuck him in the gate. So what possibly, out side of the stone, would allow them to be completed?
Kitty Chow
QUOTE(Nicoli Flamel @ Sep 25 2006, 01:45 PM) [snapback]451195[/snapback]
Alright if this is the case, and a soul is basically the human emotions and memories of a person trapped in flesh. Haven't the Homuculi shown that they have this? For example. Lust's desire to become human. There were points that she could have killed or hurt someone but she didn't. Wrath is another. Not only did he show he had emotions, but showed fear, careing, and well lets face it, he was innocent till Ed went all Jerk on him and later when Envy screwed with him. I mean he spat out the stone at first and cried while he was eating it. Clearly showing that something more then just a souless being was in there. He had memories and was making them too. Just like Al was.

Dante said that they have no emotions. Envy showed his in getting angry and his comments. Gluttony was happy, sad, perpexed...etc. So why is it that people write off the homuculi as having no soul? If anything Nina's the one with no soul, they're animated and full of life. YOu have to kill them. Nina's a doll, there's nothing in there. So how come Al is considered "Human" but Wrath isn't?

One other thing. The homucli are born from our sin, so say Hohenhime. Alright, but they're born as pretty much children that need to be taught. Wrath is innocent before he eats the stones. I think that's where the sin comes from. Not from their birth. We're the ones that abandon them becuase of our fears. Yes Sloth was a mess when she was born. But she was able within hours to pull herself around. Wrath eats food. So do the others. I think they even sleep. So why are they considered in human? Out side of Wrath having the arm and leg, it seems that if the Homuculi don't eat the stones they don't seem to gain super human powers. So that begs the question, if left alone, could they live normal human life? I mean yes they can't have kids, but I don't think someone like Envy would want a bunch of kids running around. And don't get me started on Greed and the idea of freedom. Even he when he fought Ed seemed slightly different after he threw up the stones.


Homonculi can have emotions because they have minds, not souls. With minds they can think and feel. Souls just provide alchemic energy for them to do alchemy and develop into different forms later on, like growing up...

Yes, Dante was wrong, they do have emotions...

When they eat the stones they become sins and gain energy and are immortal. No they can not live a normal life, they would be too weak without stones and could be killed.
FMA - Breeze
Well, Greed referred the stones as his "life force" I don't think that was a correct translation, if he spit out all his stones, he should be dead immediately since there was no life force left.

My theory was that homunculi could live like a normal person, but since all of them took red stone and contacted with Dante at one point or another, they failed to do that. As Sloth put it, she could have been a devoted mother if she was left alone long enough for those memories to get to her, but her mind rejected the idea because she was manipulated by Dante and also for the fact that those memories weren't as strong as Trisha's, Dante told her she was more than a mother and should be leading a different life, that it would be shameful to live like Trisha and care for the children, Trisha wouldn't have listened to those ideas because her memories and characters were integrated deeper, unlike Sloth.

As for where the energy comes from, I think they can have them like a normal human from food, Wrath ate food before he took red stone, and that's when his mind was manipulated, the red stones were purely for regenerating their bodies when killed, without stones they can die just as easily as humans, however I think that's even better for their protection comparing the mortality rate of humans (human characters in the series estimated below 30%), with homunculi (possibly one hundred percent).

I got these ideas because everyone of them showed human qualities in the anime series (didn't read manga), especially Lust, Greed (he never intended to hurt Ed, he fought because he wanted him to develop the warrior mentality to carry out his wishes) and Wrath, and also Sloth at the end of her line, since these have been repeatedly brought up, I won't go over them again.
Tombow
I'm moving this from FMA Anime American Audience sub-forum to FMA Anime forum section front.

ETA: Merged "Could Hohenhim Be Wrong About The Homucli?" thread with 12 posts (post # 33 through post # 45 on this thread) onto this thread.
Amalthea
I always found it a bit hypocritical in the anime and manga when the homunculi would say how humans are foolish, weak, etc.

True, we don't have superhuman abilities as they do, but we are really not so different. As Lust said in the manga, we have the same appearance, the same five sense, the same emotions, etc.
Arthur-F.Metal4life
i they can cause they have minds , feelings and they can use those feelings , so i think they can be called humans
Densetsu_kid
Well of course they are not. Every human has a soul and they do not possess one, therefore they are not human.
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