Prinz_Zoisit
Sep 30 2004, 11:21 AM
Yes,
filmonovna, that's what i forgot to tell(i am sooo stupid >.<)...
not only for orthodox christians... also for protestants, it's said "
Our father in heaven, beholied may be your name..."
.....@
Guest:
uhm, ...you mentioned Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.... what is with Satanism, or religions that are soo new(they just were founded one week ago)... how do you want to place them in your "totaly tolerant view", huh?
and you said ,that GOd chose a male-form cause of patriarchism. I don't think that it was soo important for him what ppl on earth think of him...
and even
IF so, did the ppl of that time really gave him the attetion he wanted to be given(even in his male-form)? ->
NOQUOTE
God has to be less than he is in order to know his full potential, and so even the worst things are holy (the crusifiction for example! or holocaust) because that defines for us what is more godly (or humanly/naturally), and what is less.. we aren't bad, we are just a lot less than what we can be in full potential..
if you say it that way, all things can be viewed as "evil" or "less evil"...
QUOTE
okay, but I still don't know which religion is the right one, who tells the truth.. please tell me, i want to know!!
I never saw God, so I can't tell which gender he is 0__o oh, I'm so unknowing! cruelness of heavens!!
That's what i want to hear from a person!!!!!....
even if you havn't chosen your right way, it is sooo(very!) right to moan!!!....
The view of a total tolerant view(with all religions included) is unreachable,
Guest...
You have to bring the most paradox things(that you can imagine) together... "Evil", as well as "Good", but in most of the religions, "the Good" is predetermined to win!...
Guest
Sep 30 2004, 11:44 AM
ow, yeah, I forgot them too!! they all preach something else, so I'm quite confused... please, tell me who tells the truth..
I think it was important which gender the Christ had.. if a female came to preach, people would laugh her out, and if she kept on going, she would die kinda sooner, without having any followers..
okay, so Jesus was luckely enough a man, so he could have some 12 desiples, and other believers beside of that.. no attention? why did jewish priests always follow and attack him, why did even the romans want him to die? he must've been quite popular and threatening if they had to torture and crusify him! he even got so far that a world religion was founded after him!
I'm not trying to say that you can somehow compromise all religions, I'm saying the opposite: they all say different things, so how do you now who tells the truth? how? tell me!
good and evil are labels designed by humans.. we always believe to do the 'right' thing, so yeah, that what's good will always win (wether it is killing or loving the other, being a slave or being a free spirit)... we can conclude that there are no rules to what is wrong or right, and even God can't tell.. it's something subjective....
Prinz_Zoisit
Sep 30 2004, 12:45 PM
what actually truth is, i can't say...
i can actually only tell little pieces of this truth and these pieces are my experience in life, my memories, all my living...
i meant that nobody payed attention to his(Jesu) preaches and nobody wanted to understand him...(but this,
Guest, you actually could guess already(what i wanted to say with this...)
QUOTE
we can conclude that there are no rules to what is wrong or right, and even God can't tell.. it's something subjective...
Then, the next question would be, if GOd expects from us to know what is true or what isn't...
It's like the sentence "Give me arguments that killing is bad!"... How do you know? We know it because we accept others like ourselves. And you can do this, if you appreciate others.
P.S.:
This question reminds me of my Philosophy lessons(wow! i am talking about school-lessons here^^), where we talked about humans and whether their nature is "to be bad"... Nobody knows... I am often thinking of such situations and i often think what would happen if you would enprison somebody in a prison for the first 20 years of his life and let him free after this time.......
But this thinking is too macabre...
Cute Alchemist
Sep 30 2004, 12:59 PM
WW3!!!! lol it like a war here *picks up my machine gun* im ready for the fight lol
Guest
Sep 30 2004, 01:10 PM
hmm, yeah, truth comes both from experience as from what you learn rationally from books or discussions, and intuition of course...
Jesus did get attention (like on the mountain-preaches), but it is probably true that people didn't understand him (or simply didn't want to).. that's why his own people sentenced him to crusifiction... but still, information about his life and believes came through to us, so there surely have been people who understood him... (however you can't really say that all christianity (or even much of it) understands and practices His teachings...)
yeah, people can accept, can forgive, and this is really a higher grade of being human.. now, to the topic, God can do the same, accept and forgive, so destruction of the world isn't necessary to bring heaven on earth.. rather than that, I think its something that will flow out of human harts, I believe we will create a time where we really can live in peace and freedom, and not be fighting against our own evolution and instinct of survival.. (until now we are kinda destructive and constructive at the same time.. that makes us walk in circles >.<)
ow, and philosophy is a great and important thing! at least, when you have the right teacher.. thinking is one of the qualities in us that we can develop, but there are also a lot more.. institutions like politics, economics, creative organisations (drama,movie,music etc.), religion etc., they al should help to develop different kinds of positive characteristics the human has.. a bad person is most often one who didn't had a chance to do so, who has fallen into an internal conflict.. someone like that should not be punished, but cured...
ah, and now I'm going to sleep!! good night everyone, wherever you might live
Prinz_Zoisit
Sep 30 2004, 01:17 PM
me, too, G'night!!
wolfi1412
Sep 30 2004, 08:54 PM
argh.. wrote a whole bunch of stuff.. and it disappeared! I'll reply later.. I'm bookmarking this!
Outtawack311
Sep 30 2004, 09:00 PM
QUOTE(wolfi1412 @ Sep 29 2004, 12:22 AM)
QUOTE(Outtawack311 @ Sep 29 2004, 07:00 AM)
Believing that the "second coming" will come when all jews are back in the holy land and the fighting stops is pretty retarded. First of all, the bible is not truth. Its stories written to give people a way to live (watch penn and teller Bullshit, its a show they have an episode explaining everything you would want to know about the bible). If you believe in god and the teaching how can you believe in the bible? It was written 500 years after anything supposedly happened. Then they left books out of the bible(that are still sanctioned by the church). The bible was assembled by a commitee who picked from hundreds of books submitted to them about the myth, they picked certain books by what went together the best and the rest of the books are off somewhere. Then comes another thing, there were thousands of "messiahs" back in that day and they all had pretty big followings too. To believe that the end of the world is predicted in the stories of men (who are fallible, even in the bible) is kinda stupid. What really bugs me are the people who pick and choose what is fact and what is a metaphor for something else.
Also, if the point of life is to worship god to the point where you dont have much free choice and if you screw up a little and die your tortured for eternity....then please, kill me and let me be tortured. I dont want to be with a god that creates people so most can be tortured in a never ending pit of fire.
Religion is a crutch people have used for centuries to show some meaning for life. Thats nice and all for people that need it, but it should be used as a guide to live. Religions teach good values, but when anyone gets caught up in the extremities of religion they turn on their fellow man and that goes against the teachings. Yes, even christians, when you turn the other cheek on people for their beliefs like gays, jews, abortionists, etc it goes against the principles of religion.
Lets see, what else can I rant on. There is no proof that the o-zone is deteriorating and there is no proof global warming exists either. The temperature jump is in direct line with what has happened in the past. There is no deviation from the patterns set. Global warming and the o-zone deterioration are just theories.
I personally believe in the theory that the universe starts with a chemical reaction, a "big bang" the universe expands then retracts again. Then it repeats. This process would take an unfathomable amount of time. Humans wont live that long either, we will most likely kill ourselves through some massive war or some scientific screw up and condemn our species. Either that or a meteor will kill us all. I dont think any of this will happen in our life time.
To be caught up in any of this as to allow it to negatively affect your life is stupid. You shouldn't worry about the innevitable, just make the best out of life.
I am jewish in a sense, I respect the religion, but I dont allow it to control me. I take the morals out of it and thats it. The rest of the old testament (or the whole bible for that matter) is all fictional stories to help you get the most out of life.
Rant...done..
first thing to say, please consider about other people's feelings and beliefs, as a Christian myself, I felt a little bit offended by what you said, maybe you should add like "I think.. " instead of jumping and just points out everything...
A thing that surprises me: you're a Jew, so are you going back to Israel? do you believe that God exists? if God doesn't exists, what creates all things in the first place?
And all kinds of stuff you were saying about the old testament, some of them are found the proof... like the ruins of wheels from Egyptian chariots in the Red Sea. or Noah's Ark.. you can see all the proof, even though it's not yet confirmed, but to me, the Bible's pretty accurate.
Believing or committing into a religion can be a good thing too, I'm studying about the Vikings age, and do you know that one of the things that stopped them from become 'barbarians' again is that they commit to Christianity, so don't think it as bad as what I read what you type/wrote.
And I disagree about when you make a little mistake and you go straight to hell, coz actually if you just ask for forgiveness to God with all your heart and with all your soul, all your sins are forgiven, it is written there! Coz, as you should know, that God is a forgiving God, why do you think He sent Jesus? Would you want to die for someone you doesn't know and he/she is a criminal that doesn't even deserve to live and you're 100% innocent??!?! God did everything out of love, and if you're wondering why.. coz God is love..
I think I have nothing else to say.. so .. been away for 1-2 days..
"And all kinds of stuff you were saying about the old testament, some of them are found the proof... like the ruins of wheels from Egyptian chariots in the Red Sea. or Noah's Ark.. you can see all the proof, even though it's not yet confirmed, but to me, the Bible's pretty accurate."
Actually dude, there is no proof for your stories, look it up. Hell, there is no factual proof that there were slaves in egypt at all. The thing about them saying they found the ark, can you please explain how noah got 2 animals from all 10 billion species on that boat? Then distributed them approriately where they are today in the world?
Want an explaination for the ark? well archeologists have proof that there was a really bad flood on the euphrates river one year (6 day long flood) that broke the levys and killed many a people. A semerian king named zieth sudra (sp?) commondered a commercial barge and rode the flood downstream into the persian gulf with alot of his own merchandise and he finally ran aground. Thankful that he landed on ground he made a sacrifice on a hilltop temple. There is geological and archeological proof to support that.
Now, want the real story behind the red sea? Right near it there is something called the reed sea that with a decent wind during low tide the marshy waters appear to part and give a pathway to cross. This one i am not as sure about, but this is what I remember.
Want to form your own opinion, get the facts. Also if you want to hear the truth about the bible and taking it as fact watch penn and teller bullshit s02e06 from suprnova. They do a good job of finding facts.
I am not trying to piss on your religion, its just that your missing the point of the bible if you try to read into it to seriously. Any book that says people should be put to death for working on sundays; One that tells of how its wrong for men to have long hair and tells many other rediculous rules (read it yourself) should not be taken seriously. It should be used for inspiration.
wolfi1412
Sep 30 2004, 09:24 PM
QUOTE(Outtawack311 @ Oct 1 2004, 04:00 AM)
Actually dude, there is no proof for your stories, look it up. Hell, there is no factual proof that there were slaves in egypt at all. The thing about them saying they found the ark, can you please explain how noah got 2 animals from all 10 billion species on that boat? Then distributed them approriately where they are today in the world?
Want an explaination for the ark? well archeologists have proof that there was a really bad flood on the euphrates river one year (6 day long flood) that broke the levys and killed many a people. A semerian king named zieth sudra (sp?) commondered a commercial barge and rode the flood downstream into the persian gulf with alot of his own merchandise and he finally ran aground. Thankful that he landed on ground he made a sacrifice on a hilltop temple. There is geological and archeological proof to support that.
Now, want the real story behind the red sea? Right near it there is something called the reed sea that with a decent wind during low tide the marshy waters appear to part and give a pathway to cross. This one i am not as sure about, but this is what I remember.
Want to form your own opinion, get the facts. Also if you want to hear the truth about the bible and taking it as fact watch penn and teller bullshit s02e06 from suprnova. They do a good job of finding facts.
I am not trying to piss on your religion, its just that your missing the point of the bible if you try to read into it to seriously. Any book that says people should be put to death for working on sundays; One that tells of how its wrong for men to have long hair and tells many other rediculous rules (read it yourself) should not be taken seriously. It should be used for inspiration.
that's one long.. quote..
sorry, but you say that the winds divided the red sea, which is I think is kinda impossible, if the one that divides it is a super strong wind, Moses and the Israelites will be flying around coz of the wind, but instead they're went safely to the other end..how you gonna explain that .. uh. er.. Outtawack311?
this reffers to Noah's ark:
Oh, and do you know that the root of all nation came from only 3 people?? black ppl, white ppl, and chinese ppl.. if there used to be millions of other ppl, why the root is only three?? and about how Noah put all the animals inside, it's called miracle!
reffers to Egyptians have slaves:
if they don't have slaves, how they build the pyramid?
Gashole
Sep 30 2004, 09:29 PM
Dayum, I gotta start reading this thread from the first page. I like arguing about this kind of stuff. I don't take the Bible literally, though, so fundamentalists, I may not be on your side.
Gashole
Sep 30 2004, 09:52 PM
@Guest or Outwack or whatever:
First of all, there is a proof that global warming is happening. I've been collecting articles about it. Icebergs are melting and the Eskimo find their food rot earlier than they're supposed to. The temperature of the world has raised past the normal pattern. In addition, the Earth itself is a subject of a collision with space materials. An asteroid just narrowly missed the planet a day ago. It's about one-eight the size of the asteroid that some think erased the dinosaurs 65 million years ago.
As for the whole thing about the Bible, like I said, I don't really take it literally. At least not the Old Testment. The stories were probably passed down from generation to generation, and while it may be accurate in the beginning, undoubtedly the story would already change a lot by the time it arrived at the hands of the writers of the Bible. (Anyone ever played the telephone game? Kind of like that.) There's no doubt that God created the galaxy. Like hell I'm gonna believe everything suddenly came out of nothing. Or if you want to put it this way, God caused the Big Bang, how's that? But the whole thing about Noah collecting all the animals inside his arc and the Jericho story probably were not 100% true. Historians and archeologists also have claimed that there are no proofs that some events in the Old Testament actually happened. That being said, I'm gonna argue that what you can't prove is not equal to what isn't true.
That's all for now. I may or may not continue later on.
Outtawack311
Sep 30 2004, 10:07 PM
" that's one long.. quote..
sorry, but you say that the winds divided the red sea, which is I think is kinda impossible, if the one that divides it is a super strong wind, Moses and the Israelites will be flying around coz of the wind, but instead they're went safely to the other end..how you gonna explain that .. uh. er.. Outtawack311?
this reffers to Noah's ark:
Oh, and do you know that the root of all nation came from only 3 people?? black ppl, white ppl, and chinese ppl.. if there used to be millions of other ppl, why the root is only three?? and about how Noah put all the animals inside, it's called miracle!
reffers to Egyptians have slaves:
if they don't have slaves, how they build the pyramid?"
Sorry about the quotes, i didnt have this thing completely figured out.
Ok, dude, the reed sea is not the red sea. It s a marsh, you can walk by it, chariots wouldnt be able to pass the swampy area. It is believed by many that they passed by the reed sea NOT the red sea(since they are right near each other).
Its not that Noah put the animals inside, its the fact that he would need to gather them up as god said. That is 20 billion animals!!! BY HIMSELF!!! No where in the bible does it talk about noah gathering them and sticking them in a boat being a miracle either. It was supposed to be a great task he took up as to serve god's will. Oh, just to give you a little perspective,you realize that there are only 6 billion people on earth....
Oh wow, I cant believe you are trying to argue that theory there used to be millions of races so there are only 3? Your whole argument makes no sense. I gather that you are trying to say all people but 3 races were wiped out due to a massive flood....First things first, white people, black people are not really what I would consider races. They are skin colors. In there we have the german race, the polish, russian, jamaican, all the different african races....on and on and on... the definition of race is "A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics." There are more than 3. Try to make a real argument here and not a racist offensive one please.
I made a mistake on the slave comment. I really meant to say that there is no proof that there were jewish slaves. Not only that, but if they were jewish nothing says they were strickly jewish. You would think they would have found some type of proof by now if there were so many jews in slavery. Not only that, but they havent found any proof of all those people wandering the desert for so many years either. There would be dead people goods lefts behind, artifacts, etc....yet no proof has ever been found and it has been searched for extensively.
Also can you please explain to me how the biggest proof that Jesus ever existed is an empty tomb and some people consider that proof? I mean seriously, AN EMPTY TOMB!!
Outtawack311
Sep 30 2004, 10:09 PM
Gashole, I only use outtawack311. There is another guy or 10 posting under guest. If you really really look at the proof and articles from both sides of the argument (I have) you find that once in a while in history there are slightly bigger jumps in temperature than normal. This is going right along with what is happening now.
wolfi1412
Sep 30 2004, 11:18 PM
QUOTE(Outtawack311 @ Oct 1 2004, 05:07 AM)
Sorry about the quotes, i didnt have this thing completely figured out.
Ok, dude, the reed sea is not the red sea. It s a marsh, you can walk by it, chariots wouldnt be able to pass the swampy area. It is believed by many that they passed by the reed sea NOT the red sea(since they are right near each other).
Its not that Noah put the animals inside, its the fact that he would need to gather them up as god said. That is 20 billion animals!!! BY HIMSELF!!! No where in the bible does it talk about noah gathering them and sticking them in a boat being a miracle either. It was supposed to be a great task he took up as to serve god's will. Oh, just to give you a little perspective,you realize that there are only 6 billion people on earth....
Oh wow, I cant believe you are trying to argue that theory there used to be millions of races so there are only 3? Your whole argument makes no sense. I gather that you are trying to say all people but 3 races were wiped out due to a massive flood....First things first, white people, black people are not really what I would consider races. They are skin colors. In there we have the german race, the polish, russian, jamaican, all the different african races....on and on and on... the definition of race is "A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics." There are more than 3. Try to make a real argument here and not a racist offensive one please.
I made a mistake on the slave comment. I really meant to say that there is no proof that there were jewish slaves. Not only that, but if they were jewish nothing says they were strickly jewish. You would think they would have found some type of proof by now if there were so many jews in slavery. Not only that, but they havent found any proof of all those people wandering the desert for so many years either. There would be dead people goods lefts behind, artifacts, etc....yet no proof has ever been found and it has been searched for extensively.
Also can you please explain to me how the biggest proof that Jesus ever existed is an empty tomb and some people consider that proof? I mean seriously, AN EMPTY TOMB!!
about the reed sea and the red sea stuff:
what's a reed sea?
and I think they found what might look like the chariot wheels inside the red sea.
and is the red sea and the dead sea the same or they're two different stuff??
The 3 races and stuff:
I'm bad in vocabulary, so what I mean by races is that hm... can't find the right word.. uh.. yea, sort of like skin colour and genes or DNA's.. they're sort of like only 3 of 'em...
Proof that Jesus ever existed:
the disciples (spell?) and all of the ppl who saw him heals and stuff... (see? how many times I used the word "stuff" here?) and there's something I wanna say.. um... tomorrow... need sleep..
About Noah's ark thingy:
somehow I'm too sleepy to think... I'll answer that tomorrow.. .have.to..sleep...
Guest
Oct 1 2004, 12:43 AM
"Proof that Jesus ever existed:
the disciples (spell?) and all of the ppl who saw him heals and stuff... (see? how many times I used the word "stuff" here?) and there's something I wanna say.. um... tomorrow... need sleep.."
There is no proof. The people who "Saw" him heal are in stories written 500 or more years later then the said events happened. You mean to tell me that those stories couldnt have been changed form the truth a bit? Have you ever done the telephone game in class where you say a phrase and keep saying it around the class. Do you remember how much that changed through 30 people? Imagine word of mouth over 500 years or more and thats how most of the stories of the bible were recorded. Now most people cant even tell you what they had for dinner a week ago, let alone stories from years and years ago. I find myself exaggerating on stories all the time without even really thinking about it, thats human nature. How exact do you think the bible stories are after that?
Please dont give me the argument that the people who wrote the books in the bible were inspired by god. If they were, they wouldn't have repeat stories that have major differences between books (which they do). Can you seriously tell me that you believe they were told by god what to write? If you believe that, then I have great beach front property to sell you in Wyoming...
My point is to get you to think for yourself and take the good lessons out of the bible, but following it word for word would make you do things against the principles that make religion a good thing. Not only that, you cant take some stories from it as absolute truth (Noah's Ark, 10 plagues/moses, etc..) then dismiss other parts and say they mean something else..
Oh and this sunday I am going to be going out and doing things. Then after I get back I am going to do homework. According to the bible I should be put to death for that......If you believe Noah's ark to be the absolute truth then come enforce that one...
What a great book.......
If you want to know what Noahs story meant, I believe it was supposed to symbolize starting over and giving second chances. Call me crazy, but if you take it as truth its a story of a vengeful god's wrath upon his own people. I prefer the first one.
Outtawack311
Oct 1 2004, 12:44 AM
opps, I forgot to put my name in the last post.. It is me though.
Prinz_Zoisit
Oct 1 2004, 09:45 AM
about the red sea.:
that Jesus walked over the sea wouldn't have been something special if he couldn't do it with other seas(not the red sea, actually every sea)...
i think that everybody was smart enough to know that also humans could walk over this(red) sea...
flood-catastrophes(and bees that were soo disturbing this summer here and this has never been before) show that climate-heating is real...
pls, don't argue about things what could be true or what couldn't be.... just talk about experience in your life...
wolfi1412
Oct 1 2004, 05:32 PM
QUOTE(Guest @ Oct 1 2004, 07:43 AM)
There is no proof. The people who "Saw" him heal are in stories written 500 or more years later then the said events happened. You mean to tell me that those stories couldnt have been changed form the truth a bit? Have you ever done the telephone game in class where you say a phrase and keep saying it around the class. Do you remember how much that changed through 30 people? Imagine word of mouth over 500 years or more and thats how most of the stories of the bible were recorded. Now most people cant even tell you what they had for dinner a week ago, let alone stories from years and years ago. I find myself exaggerating on stories all the time without even really thinking about it, thats human nature. How exact do you think the bible stories are after that?
Please dont give me the argument that the people who wrote the books in the bible were inspired by god. If they were, they wouldn't have repeat stories that have major differences between books (which they do). Can you seriously tell me that you believe they were told by god what to write? If you believe that, then I have great beach front property to sell you in Wyoming...
My point is to get you to think for yourself and take the good lessons out of the bible, but following it word for word would make you do things against the principles that make religion a good thing. Not only that, you cant take some stories from it as absolute truth (Noah's Ark, 10 plagues/moses, etc..) then dismiss other parts and say they mean something else..
Oh and this sunday I am going to be going out and doing things. Then after I get back I am going to do homework. According to the bible I should be put to death for that......If you believe Noah's ark to be the absolute truth then come enforce that one...
What a great book.......
If you want to know what Noahs story meant, I believe it was supposed to symbolize starting over and giving second chances. Call me crazy, but if you take it as truth its a story of a vengeful god's wrath upon his own people. I prefer the first one.
outtawack311, why you use these (" ") instead of the quote button?
well, actually if the stories wasn't true, um... aa... what's wrong with my brain? got too much fun and smells bleach a lot.. euw. so back to topic, and yes I've done that game, but most ppl screws it purposely.. well, my uncle says, if you look closely in Grand Canyon's layers, he said that you can see like the bottom part is like sort of wet or something like that, it shows that once there was a big flood. then I wanna ask, the 12 disciples did exists and Pilate did exists too, so why not Jesus exists too?
and about the ppl who wrote the Bible..
if you're talking about those 4 books about Jesus' lives, it's obviously because they were written in 4 ppl's point of view. it's just like you've watched a movie for a class, then you were asked to write an essay out of it, you and your friend won't have the same "stuff" even though the story's the same.
and no one can walks on water except Jesus..
actually Prinz, I'm a bit confused about your post.
Gashole
Oct 1 2004, 05:37 PM
Uh... there are actually historical evidence about Jesus' existence... most people usually argue more about whether or not He's the Son of God. The existence of Abraham and other Old Testament figures may be doubted, but Jesus lived in a relatively pretty recent period. There's no point in continuing here.
Gashole
Oct 1 2004, 05:39 PM
Hey Outtawack, can you declare your main view about God and the Bible again? Are you an atheist, a half-believer, or what?
wolfi1412
Oct 1 2004, 05:44 PM
he's an atheist, I believe.
Outtawack311
Oct 1 2004, 07:19 PM
Actually, I believe that there is a god. Its just not something people can comprehend and that there are no written laws directly from god. I dont believe in organized religion although I do respect my jewish heritage at the same time.
Find me the proof that says Jesus existed, trust me when I say there is no solid proof. I have looked for it.
No offense, but your grandpa is kinda slow. Of course there are signs of water in the grand canyon, it was formed by millions of years of errosion. That in no way prooves there was a great flood that wiped out the earth.
About the 4 books, its not that they are in different point of views. Its that they contradict each other on certain facts. That would not happen if the writers were inspired by god to write them. Do you seriously believe any god would say that you should kill gays, people that work on sunday and its alright to sell your daughter into slavery (exodus 21 verse 7). This book was written by humans who ARE FALLIBLE. You can't take the bible seriously word for word.
Some more... Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you that if a man have long hair it is a shame onto him....gee, Jesus was a shame onto himself????
I believe the same book 19 verse 24 says a man should not go near a woman who is on her period.
If you believe the book to be the absolute truth you have to enforce all of the rules in the bible, Including these last ones. you cant trash rules that you dont like if you truly believe it was written by your god through people and your god is infallible.
Gashole
Oct 1 2004, 07:22 PM
Ahahahh, you registered! Welcome!
I will argue again later if I feel like it.
Prinz_Zoisit
Oct 2 2004, 12:08 AM
ah, i meant the reed sea...^^;;
no matter, it is something special what God must have done, or else there had to be at least one who says that Jesus tricked the ppl...^^
Guest
Oct 2 2004, 12:15 AM
._.
did Julius Ceasar exist? did Hannibal exist? maybe it was all one big plot! I don't even believe that Socrates, Plato or Aristoteles existed... all that is written by humans is failable and might be corrupted, so we better not even go to history class even more....
Prinz_Zoisit
Oct 2 2004, 12:40 AM
there is too much proof for them...
you would deny history... deny ppl who wanted to help humanity with their knowledge..
Guest
Oct 2 2004, 12:59 AM
yeah, but what's proof??
letters maybe? there were roman senators and others who mentioned (the threath of) Jesus.. now, maybe those romans made Jesus up just for the fun? Ceasar might've been made up also in their stories..
pictures, perhaps? there were people who have seen Jesus and painted him.. those paintings were used in early christianity, others were based upon them..
the fact that habits and georgraphic places in descriptions are correct? the description of Julius' warfare are right, and so are the places Jesus visited and the way they led their led their life as Jews, and the way that the romans acted there, it all fits with other sources...
and beside of that, you have the twelve apostels, who were also mentioned and persecuted by romans.. now, those twelve apostels could've made it up, but there were a lot more witnesses than only them...
if one would like to find other written material aside of the bible about Jesus, one would probably have to visit some libraries in Rome or in Jerusalem, or in other parts of Palestina...
Guest
Oct 2 2004, 01:02 AM
sorry for double-posting
I'm not registered yet
yeah, it would be funny that people of great knowledge, skill and influence on the course of human development, would've been made up...
I find a big support and example in the Christ, how ironic would it be if he's just fanatsy?
gugclo
Oct 2 2004, 01:11 AM
Read "Da Devinci Code" Its a fictional novel that basicly disproves christianality, gogogogo
Guest
Oct 2 2004, 08:40 AM
00? oro? i never heard about it.. don't know what it says..
but, ehm, christianity DOES exist.. *holds up a book named 'Responsibility of a Christian'* Christianity is a way someone is as an individual.. it's an attidude of being responsible for yourself and the world around you, about the freedom that you have and the way you know God and have a relationship with Him.. (which is different with every person... that's why organised religion in fact doesn't exist
)
Gashole
Oct 2 2004, 08:49 AM
QUOTE(gugclo @ Oct 2 2004, 08:11 AM)
Read "Da Devinci Code" Its a fictional novel that basicly disproves christianality, gogogogo
Yup, it's fictional all right.
Gashole
Oct 2 2004, 09:11 AM
Okay, look, if Adam and Noah and Abraham and Elijah and others were just made-up, I'd understand that. They lived, after all, thousands of years ago. But Jesus, like I said, lived in a relatively recent period. By then people were pretty much civilized. And Jesus caused too much controversy that He was known by many people. If He didn't really exist and those people actually believe they'd seen Him, hmm... I have to question the intelligence of people in general.
Experts have, by the way, do not deny Jesus' existence. Most only doubt that He was the Son of God. Some of them think of Him only as a moral teacher. Dude, even the Da Vinci Code, the fictional book that claims to be factual, does not deny Jesus' existence. Who are you to argue with these experts? If you can't find historical evidence of Jesus, maybe you're not looking hard enough. Have you been to Nazareth?
Sorry if my transitions were horrible. My brain doesn't work well first thing in the morning.
filimonovna
Oct 2 2004, 09:20 AM
QUOTE(Gashole @ Oct 2 2004, 04:11 PM)
Okay, look, if Adam and Noah and Abraham and Elijah and others were just made-up, I'd understand that. They lived, after all, thousands of years ago. But Jesus, like I said, lived in a relatively recent period. By then people were pretty much civilized. And Jesus caused too much controversy that He was known by many people. If He didn't really exist and those people actually believe they'd seen Him, hmm... I have to question the intelligence of people in general.
Experts have, by the way, do not deny Jesus' existence. Most only doubt that He was the Son of God. Some of them think of Him only as a moral teacher. Dude, even the Da Vinci Code, the fictional book that claims to be factual, does not deny Jesus' existence. Who are you to argue with these experts? If you can't find historical evidence of Jesus, maybe you're not looking hard enough. Have you been to Nazareth?
Sorry if my transitions were horrible. My brain doesn't work well first thing in the morning.
I totally agree.
But this discussion can last for ever. It's a matter of belief. If I believe, no discussion can make me stop believing. Neither can it make someone start. Only something striking, that happens in reality can.
When I studied in high school, in our class there was an atheist guy, who always laughed at us, when we talked about God - no matter if it was a usual talk or a literature discussion. He just shook his head and said: 'How can you believe this? It's stupid, contemporary person should trust in unproved stupid stuff.' I don't know what happenedto him, but when we went to Kiev this spring, and visited Kievo-Pecherkaya Lavra (the oldest orthodox church all over the russian territories), he was with us and he prayed.
Guest
Oct 2 2004, 09:38 AM
people who say that believing in God is stupid, really don't give reasons why it's stupid, and really don't know why people even believe..
often there's said that religion is made up in order to explain natural phenomenons.. this is true for the older polytheistic religions, who had a god for everything, but monotheistic religion really had/has an other purpose: it is about the ethical, emotional and aesthetical position of human being.. the only sciences who can play a role in this are psychology and philosophy...
of course, not all polytheistic religions are so primitive, and non-theistic religions as buddhism have the same function
Gashole
Oct 2 2004, 09:54 AM
QUOTE(Guest @ Oct 2 2004, 04:38 PM)
often there's said that religion is made up in order to explain natural phenomenons..
For this reason I love it when atheists say science is their religion.
Gashole
Oct 2 2004, 10:01 AM
Let's say I try to bring science down...
Science is really a form of belief. It is a way of reassuring self that what we know are really true. It is as inconsistent as any other religions. There is no guarantee that any theory is completely true. In fact, scientists correct themselves all the time. How, really, would they know that black holes exist? Have they been there and see with their own eyes? How would they know that atoms are the way they imagine to be, or that they even exist?
Gashole
Oct 2 2004, 10:06 AM
QUOTE(filimonovna @ Oct 2 2004, 04:20 PM)
When I studied in high school, in our class there was an atheist guy, who always laughed at us, when we talked about God - no matter if it was a usual talk or a literature discussion. He just shook his head and said: 'How can you believe this? It's stupid, contemporary person should trust in unproved stupid stuff.' I don't know what happenedto him, but when we went to Kiev this spring, and visited Kievo-Pecherkaya Lavra (the oldest orthodox church all over the russian territories), he was with us and he prayed.
Hahahh, honestly, I'd really like to laugh at him and never let him hear the end of it. But if I did, then I'd just be a horrible person.
Guest
Oct 2 2004, 10:45 AM
QUOTE(Gashole @ Oct 2 2004, 10:01 AM)
Let's say I try to bring science down...
Science is really a form of belief. It is a way of reassuring self that what we know are really true. It is as inconsistent as any other religions. There is no guarantee that any theory is completely true. In fact, scientists correct themselves all the time. How, really, would they know that black holes exist? Have they been there and see with their own eyes? How would they know that atoms are the way they imagine to be, or that they even exist?
there are pictures of black holes... and atoms, well, they don't have a consistent structure, 0___o''''''' but schemes seem to all right about how they work..
well, science is all right as long as it is tested practically.. of course, often one has to change or perfectionize the knowledge.. but it is not that it was wrong in the first place.. for example, Newtons laws aren't wrong, but just incomplete, as Einstein showed us... in the near future we'll still be working out the knowledge of physics that we have now
well, science improves itself all the time, why wouldn't religion do so also? I got a feeling that religion is a bit slow with this, it's afraid of accepting new views and practitions.. there are a lot of aspects of organised religion that do not work (do not serve the human kind)..
whatever the human comes up with, it should always serve human development... all institutions and doctrines are there to discover what's happening in the world, what it means to us and what we want to do with it... being honest about it is essential...
Gashole
Oct 2 2004, 11:11 AM
I'll go on saying... how do you know those produced pictures of blackholes are real and accurate?
The point is, you really believe in science the way Christians really believe in God. You think science is all very logical and obvious, and you get frustrated when the other guy is so dumb that he can't understand anything and keep questioning. Well, it's the same for Christians. Has it ever occurred to you that they may get frustrated about the way those dumb scientists who can't understand God's ways keep questioning?
filimonovna
Oct 2 2004, 11:55 AM
QUOTE(Guest @ Oct 2 2004, 05:45 PM)
QUOTE(Gashole @ Oct 2 2004, 10:01 AM)
Let's say I try to bring science down...
Science is really a form of belief. It is a way of reassuring self that what we know are really true. It is as inconsistent as any other religions. There is no guarantee that any theory is completely true. In fact, scientists correct themselves all the time. How, really, would they know that black holes exist? Have they been there and see with their own eyes? How would they know that atoms are the way they imagine to be, or that they even exist?
there are pictures of black holes... and atoms, well, they don't have a consistent structure, 0___o''''''' but schemes seem to all right about how they work..
well, science is all right as long as it is tested practically.. of course, often one has to change or perfectionize the knowledge.. but it is not that it was wrong in the first place.. for example, Newtons laws aren't wrong, but just incomplete, as Einstein showed us... in the near future we'll still be working out the knowledge of physics that we have now
well, science improves itself all the time, why wouldn't religion do so also? I got a feeling that religion is a bit slow with this, it's afraid of accepting new views and practitions.. there are a lot of aspects of organised religion that do not work (do not serve the human kind)..
whatever the human comes up with, it should always serve human development... all institutions and doctrines are there to discover what's happening in the world, what it means to us and what we want to do with it... being honest about it is essential...
Don't know how old you are, guys, I'm only 17, but I myself remember those times, when black holes were said to be only fictional rumors. Oh, well... Actually, I do believe in science, but, honestly, those unproven theories are just... words! They see something in the sky, they do some research, get some facts and then say: 'Hey, this is to be a black hole! And black hole is to do this and that. What? It is to do also
this? Haha! WHo you are to say it to us, professors! We know better!'
Guest
Oct 2 2004, 01:23 PM
@Gashole: well, you have for instant an certain radiation on the edges of the black hole and jets on both sides, this is energy that was on the edge of the hole and not absorbed, but attracted and thrown out again.. you can tell that it is a black hole by the size, chemical structure and mass you calculate from it... the radiation etc. is something that is exactly written out in formulas..
then you have also double-sun stellars, where a star is moving around another star... there was a star observed who was moving around 'nothing'.. guess what this nothing is? of course, they are very probably to be black holes, but we really don't know well how they work, why somes emit extra radiation and others don't, etc..... there's a hard work between mathematical theories and evident proof... yet, we have nothing but to believe we'll get to know the thruth and stay honest..
now, the truth about God, you say something about his ways.. what are his ways? I mean, some christains believe in hell, others don't.. some believe in the apocalyps, others don't.. how do you find thruth and formulate it with this things?
Gashole
Oct 2 2004, 03:43 PM
(I attempted to end this pointless argument, but oh well.)
Proof that God exists: You are here, alive, breathing on this planet, and annoyingly try to convince yourself that He doesn't just because you can't prove His being.
wolfi1412
Oct 3 2004, 12:15 AM
To the Newest Guest:
pls put a name on your guest.. it's hard to tell the difference..
well, atheist ppl said that they don't believe in anything, but they do believe in science, so there's no such thing as "I don't believe in anything" and if there's no God, no I'll put it if there's no "Creator" nothing will exists here.. tell me how are humans made? evolution? don't make me laugh.. that's BS to me.. even Darwin rejected it in the end... my point is God realy does exists...
let me tell you, humans are limited living things, they have limits. then the Universe is unlimited actually.. we have the Milky Way galaxy, then there's a whole lot more, why do you even think that humans can knw everything?? we're not God, there has to be someone that's greater than us.. (somehow this tells me I"m off-topic)
To Outtawack311:
he's not my grandpa!!! he's my uncle!!!
To everyone who's seeking the "proof" of Jesus Christ :
King David does exists, and he's Jesus's great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather. and I think Jewish ppl records your family tree like Chinese does.
and I can't actually give a solid proof about it.. coz us, Christians walked by faith and not by sight... because it was written "Blessed are those who believes and yet not seen"
So, I won't bother to look for proofs, believing in faith and walk by faith is enough for me.. I knew this last night, when I went to Reuben Morgan from Hillsong's concert.
I have a really interesting question:
I think you don't believe in God because you can't feel Him, touch Him, or see Him or anything using all of your 5 senses, then let me ask you something, how do you know that your brain can think???
filimonovna
Oct 3 2004, 04:39 AM
I agree with wolfi's words. Our existing is the best proof that God, Creator do exists.
Prinz_Zoisit
Oct 3 2004, 08:32 AM
isn't there a law that everything is true until there is a proof that it's not true? *g
Nailbiter
Oct 3 2004, 10:35 AM
allright, time to give the guest who was posting all the time as 'guest' a name! my name is.... *padum* Nailbiter! PH34r!
I have four arms and five eyes! try to prove me wrong! heeeheeeheehehe
nah, if you first go around watching what is not true, it would take long to find all resting truth, no? ah, there still has to be set a theory first, that comes from either rational conclusion, experience or intuition (all of them are failable, so you have to have faith with it)... now, you don't need to have prove to be able to use God.. the only thing is, God's hard to name.. you can't put him in formulas or whatever, because he's the origin of formulas in nature (not the written, but the actual thing)
science can formulate how things work, but still don't know what they are, and especially, they can't give a reason for it!! giving reason to life is something quite important for us humans, no? so, even science is quite useless in explaining the world.........
Prinz_Zoisit
Oct 3 2004, 10:39 AM
QUOTE(Nailbiter @ Oct 3 2004, 06:35 PM)
now, you don't need to have prove to be able to use God.. the only thing is, God's hard to name.. you can't put him in formulas or whatever, because he's the origin of formulas in nature (not the written, but the actual thing)
uh, i'm tired of that
*wugh
Gashole
Oct 3 2004, 11:24 AM
I'm officially lost. What are we arguing about again?
But there's one thing I like to point out based on Nailbiter's answer. In fact, we can use the wrong answers to point out the true answer. It'll help you a lot on the SAT.
The book The Alchemist also tells you the same thing.
(It's a good book.)
wolfi1412
Oct 3 2004, 08:32 PM
QUOTE(Nailbiter @ Oct 3 2004, 05:35 PM)
science can formulate how things work, but still don't know what they are, and especially, they can't give a reason for it!! giving reason to life is something quite important for us humans, no? so, even science is quite useless in explaining the world.........
see? even science can't explain everything.. God can.. as I said before, even though scientists said that the Earth is created by somekind of natural things.. rocks and other stuff.... it's kind of impossible if there's no creator in the first place.
Outtawack311
Oct 3 2004, 11:25 PM
QUOTE(wolfi1412 @ Oct 3 2004, 12:15 AM)
To the Newest Guest:
pls put a name on your guest.. it's hard to tell the difference..
well, atheist ppl said that they don't believe in anything, but they do believe in science, so there's no such thing as "I don't believe in anything" and if there's no God, no I'll put it if there's no "Creator" nothing will exists here.. tell me how are humans made? evolution? don't make me laugh.. that's BS to me.. even Darwin rejected it in the end... my point is God realy does exists...
let me tell you, humans are limited living things, they have limits. then the Universe is unlimited actually.. we have the Milky Way galaxy, then there's a whole lot more, why do you even think that humans can knw everything?? we're not God, there has to be someone that's greater than us.. (somehow this tells me I"m off-topic)
To Outtawack311:
he's not my grandpa!!! he's my uncle!!!
To everyone who's seeking the "proof" of Jesus Christ :
King David does exists, and he's Jesus's great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather. and I think Jewish ppl records your family tree like Chinese does.
and I can't actually give a solid proof about it.. coz us, Christians walked by faith and not by sight... because it was written "Blessed are those who believes and yet not seen"
So, I won't bother to look for proofs, believing in faith and walk by faith is enough for me.. I knew this last night, when I went to Reuben Morgan from Hillsong's concert.
I have a really interesting question:
I think you don't believe in God because you can't feel Him, touch Him, or see Him or anything using all of your 5 senses, then let me ask you something, how do you know that your brain can think???
Blahaha...well, your uncle is wrong. Oops.
You got duped on the Darwin thing. He never denounced it. It was like his wife or sister or someone (I forget who, but it was the only person near him when he died) like that who after he died came out and said he denounced it. Yet she was a devout christian and no one ever heard him even doubt his theory near the end. He never wavered. Do you really think a man who devotes his whole life to something and finds proof of its existence would seriously in the last seconds of his life say to someone who is a devout christian that its not true? Its very very suspect, since his closest friends never heard him even think of going back on his research. Go look it up if you want.
Secondly, there is much more scientific proof in fossils that evolution happened. There is no proof for creationism. If its such a stupid idea then why do many christian faiths now say it happened, but god made it happen. Its scientific fact that at one point the earth was just single celled organisms, how do you explain us being here billions of years later?
FIND ME SOME FACTS PLEASE.
Please tell me one thing, I went to a block party today. Its Sunday, according to the bible I should be killed. Why arent you enforcing this?
Ok, just so you know. If you go to church your going against the teachings of your god. Your god specifically says not to make buildings of worship and to do it on your own. Your god specifically says not to make statues and things of that nature in his honor. If you believe in your god and what is said in the bible, then you are going to hell. Simple as that.
Your being a hypocrite if you believe in christian religion and arent enforcing the laws your god setup.
Your question about my brain thinking makes no sense, there is proof in my speech. Proof in brain scans and proof in the fact THAT I AM THINKING. how old are you??
Can you please answer some of my questions and stop ignoring the fact that your bible tells you to do somethings that you and your whole religion just ignores completely. How can you in good faith call yourself a christian if you go against ANY of these teaching.
BTW, I went to a catholic school for 4 years (I am jewish, sort of, it was either go there or get killed at my local public school) so I do know what I am talking about when it comes to this.