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Qeomash
As Chapter 52 is coming up soon and we MIGHT be finally seeing the full face of this bugger, any last theories on who or what he is and what his aim is?

Call me crazy, but I believe that Father is HOENHEIM! For those of you who don't believe me, here are my ideas:

We first see Father in Chapter 31 when they execute Greed...




And then he downs the essence of Greed...


We dont see him again until chapter 41, right after Lust is "smothered in brimstone"... After talking with the other remaining Homunculuses, he gets up:



And, it is then later in that chapter that we finally see Hoenheim in person:


Here are my points:
- The beared - Nearly identical beards aren't they?
- Both have long hair, Hoenheim just has his tied behind him. Father can't really do that in his chair...
- Father has a few stray hairs down over his face (Pictures #1 & #4), and so does Hoenheim
- The timing:
- Hoenheim appears in the same chapter we see Father standing up
- We have not seen father since Hoenheim started roaming the country.

So, besides his identity, what are his aims? We know he want a giant Philosopher's Stone, but WHY does he want the stone? Immortal life? And why is he trying to make the gates of truth?

Anyway, discuss. I'll offer my theory on his acitvities once I find the correct page I'm looking for. biggrin.gif
Sensenic
QUOTE (Qeomash @ Oct 5 2005, 10:45 AM) *
As Chapter 52 is coming up soon and we MIGHT be finally seeing the full face of this bugger, any last theories on who or what he is and what his aim is?

Call me crazy, but I believe that Father is HOENHEIM! For those of you who don't believe me, here are my ideas:

We first see Father in Chapter 31 when they execute Greed...

And then he downs the essence of Greed...

We dont see him again until chapter 41, right after Lust is "smothered in brimstone"... After talking with the other remaining Homunculuses, he gets up:

And, it is then later in that chapter that we finally see Hoenheim in person:

Here are my points:
- The beared - Nearly identical beards aren't they?
- Both have long hair, Hoenheim just has his tied behind him. Father can't really do that in his chair...
- Father has a few stray hairs down over his face (Pictures #1 & #4), and so does Hoenheim
- The timing:
- Hoenheim appears in the same chapter we see Father standing up
- We have not seen father since Hoenheim started roaming the country.

So, besides his identity, what are his aims? We know he want a giant Philosopher's Stone, but WHY does he want the stone? Immortal life? And why is he trying to make the gates of truth?

Anyway, discuss. I'll offer my theory on his acitvities once I find the correct page I'm looking for. biggrin.gif

As we say in Spanish: "Has descubierto la sopa de ajo", man.

All that stuff is quite known, as you'll see if you take your time to read around a little. Yes, indeed, it's much probable that Hoho = Father.

Actually, it's too probable maybe, and the point some people (me included) are trying to make is that is just too obvious for it to be a big future surprise. I believe they're not the same person. But in that case they're strongly related, of course, somehow.

We don't know he's aiming to do a giant stone. That's what Marco guessed and Envy's answer was that "he's close", but not that he was right. As for Immortality... he's been there ever since prehistory, according to PG2.

EDIT: Took off the images.
Antimony
There seems to be a lot of evidence that Hohenheim could be Father, but it could just be a trick. Hiromu could be intentionally trying to make us think that they are the same person when the truth is something else entirely. Remember Maria Ross's death? I believed she really was dead until she showed up alive at the ruins.

Yet even if Hohenheim is Father or not, there is certainly something suspicious about him. Little clues here and there have led my to believe he isn't what he seems. The first ten pages of Chapter 46 are a good example of what I mean. http://groups.msn.com/FullMetalAlchemist/c...r46.msnw?Page=1
Nepharski
QUOTE(Antimony @ Oct 5 2005, 04:19 PM) [snapback]296487[/snapback]

There seems to be a lot of evidence that Hohenheim could be Father, but it could just be a trick. Hiromu could be intentionally trying to make us think that they are the same person when the truth is something else entirely. Remember Maria Ross's death? I believed she really was dead until she showed up alive at the ruins.

Yes. That's one of the reasons I think Pride could have been Grand.

QUOTE(Antimony @ Oct 5 2005, 04:19 PM) [snapback]296487[/snapback]
Yet even if Hohenheim is Father or not, there is certainly something suspicious about him. Little clues here and there have led my to believe he isn't what he seems. The first ten pages of Chapter 46 are a good example of what I mean. http://groups.msn.com/FullMetalAlchemist/c...r46.msnw?Page=1

Despite all the evidence (Similarity in look, "Something terrible is going to happen," invinsible), I just don't think it's Hohenheim. Hearing Ed talk about him, he sounded like some diabolical, self-serving jackass. But when you actually meet him...he's just so different from that image. The Hohenheim Ed talks about could be the Father, but not this guy. And then he uses his invulnerablity to guard the others on the wagon, misses his wife, etc.

Plus, why would someone so obviously powerful and enigmatic as The Father leave the safety of his lair in the first place? To tell Pinako, "Something terrible's going to happen?" He could have sent any underling to do that.

I just don't think it's him, although Hohenheim definitly has something going on ("I'm a monster").

...Perhaps Hohenheim has a twin brother...
Dark_Fishie
Who thinks Father is "Old Man of the East and/or Old Man of the West?" *puts hand up*

Or, better idea (borrows Nepharski's twin theory) -

Hohenheim is Old Man of the East
- Introduced Rentanjutsu to Xing, which is a mainly medicinal art and focuses on the flow of everything living
- Even though Rentanjutsu can be used to cause damage, it is mainly used for healing as Mei-chan demonstrated with Scar's wound
[SPOILER] - When Hoho was shot at, he survived. What if it was because he used his knowledge of rentanjutsu to reduce the damage made to his body? Mei-chan was able stop Scar's wound from bleeding. If Hohenheim is indeed the "Old Man of the East", then bullet wounds should be easy for him to handle.
- Also, Hoho said to the bandits that shooting at people is not nice and he was definitely NOT interested in chasing after them. Hoho clearly demonstrates that he does not have a violent personality. [/SPOILER]
Father is Old Man of the West (Evil Twin)
- Introduced Renkinjutsu
- Ling (I think...) said that Amestris' military is more advanced than Xing's and that Xing's medicinal arts is better developed than Amestris' because of Renkinjutsu and Rentanjutsu, respectively. With the homunculi and their leader, Father, having direct control over the military, they can greatly influence the development of renkinjutsu in Amestris. Also, with all the bloodshed that has happened ever since Wrath became the head of the military, the homunculi clearly show their complete disregard for innocent human lives. Who knows what they might do next - maybe even blowing up the entire country! ;P
GaluxKitty
Personally, I think Hoenheim may be a "Red Herring" of sorts; it seems way too obvious that he would be Pride to me. I think Arakawa's trying to lead us off the true trail.
Antimony
QUOTE(GaluxKitty @ Oct 6 2005, 12:30 AM) [snapback]296607[/snapback]

Personally, I think Hoenheim may be a "Red Herring" of sorts; it seems way too obvious that he would be Pride to me. I think Arakawa's trying to lead us off the true trail.


I think you meant Father and not Pride, right? And I agree with you, making it Hohenheim would be too easy. Hiromu seems to like surprising us readers, and this is the perfect set up. But if he isn't Father, then what is he? He's definitely not an ordinary alchemist, and there has to be an explanation for that. Perhaps Dark Fishie's theory may have a connection.
Dai
QUOTE(Sensenic @ Oct 5 2005, 03:29 PM) [snapback]296301[/snapback]

As we say in Spanish: "Has descubierto la sopa de ajo", man.

All that stuff is quite known, as you'll see if you take your time to read around a little. Yes, indeed, it's much probable that Hoho = Father.

Actually, it's too probable maybe, and the point some people (me included) are trying to make is that is just too obvious for it to be a big future surprise. I believe they're not the same person. But in that case they're strongly related, of course, somehow.

We don't know he's aiming to do a giant stone. That's what Marco guessed and Envy's answer was that "he's close", but not that he was right. As for Immortality... he's been there ever since prehistory, according to PG2.

EDIT: Took off the images.

I agree with you XD it's obvious Hoho is "Father" and I think he is some kind of homunculus too XD maybe that'is the reason because he doesn't die when is shot.

we say too: "Has descubierto América" XD
GS4Life
I figured as much........

DAMN YOU Hoenheim! You killled Greed, gave your real sons more trouble than they needed,your trying to wipe out the country, and you basically order around the Homonculi, who are out to kill Ling and Ran Fan, and capture Ed, AL and Roy for human sacrifies.*Turns SSJ* Take this KAAAAAAAAAAAA
Oh another thing is that hint that the "Father" is Hoenheim is that he's bulllet proof. So yeah, now we all know. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
GaluxKitty
*facepalm* Yeh, I meant Father. Sorry... ^^;
Antimony
No problem. smile.gif
Kael
While it is completely obvious that Hohenheim might be Father, that also makes it far too possible for him to be simply a distraction. However, and I very much like to do this, a character thus obvious is often dismissed as "too obvious" by readers, and they turn falsely to someone else as a suspect, which leaves Hohenheim free to be father after all.
Qeomash
Okay, I can't find the page in the manga with the quote I want. I could've sworm that Trisha's last words, at some point were "Tell your father I can't keep our promise...I'm dying first." or something to that effect.

So, my absolutly off the wall theory is this...(based on if Hoen is Father)...

...we have it all wrong. Father is not trying to make a giant Philosopher's Stone to prolong his life. Perhaps he already did that, some millenia ago. He gained true immortality. Now, he wants to die...to die alongside Trisha. The only way to do that is to reverse what he did before. And for that, he needs the stone.

That would atleast explain why Hoenheim is invincible. And why he seemed sad when he said "I'm a monster."
ElvishVamp (too lazy to log in)
QUOTE
...we have it all wrong. Father is not trying to make a giant Philosopher's Stone to prolong his life. Perhaps he already did that, some millenia ago. He gained true immortality. Now, he wants to die...to die alongside Trisha. The only way to do that is to reverse what he did before. And for that, he needs the stone.

I'm pretty sure I've heard that theory before. It makes more sense to me than Hohehiem trying to make a stone to prolong his life. He's seems like he's probably already immortal to me.
GS4Life
The "Father" wanting the Philospher Stone so he can die would make sense, except why would he want to sacrifice his own sons, and an entire continent just so he can die? Also it seems Hoenheim was trying to get the stone longgggggggg before Trishia died. I mean heck Envy called a 40+ year old Wrath a kid, so knowing that the homonculi have been around for so long, it wouldn't make sense that he suddenly wants the stone just to die.
Antimony
He was also around when Pinako was a young woman, and he looks exactly the same as he did then! Obviously Pinako knows more then she's telling about him, so perhaps she'll be the one to reveal the truth.
Qeomash
However, if Hoen really is Father, how would Gluttony be able to take Al to him? Do they know where Hoenheim is going in his seemingly random wanderings?
Carnal Malefactor
Maybe this topic should be merged with my older one...
quills
i also think it's Hohenheim~ but i hesitate-- because i know Hiromu's story line is not so predictable... maybe he is trying to lead us onto thinking Hohenheim's the father of homoculous, while there's going to be a big surprise...
i think it's going to take awhile before we find out who he really is.
Animeoldtimer
I don't know if anyone mentioned this idea but maybe he has a split personality?
animefangirl
QUOTE(Qeomash @ Oct 7 2005, 02:37 AM) [snapback]296927[/snapback]

Okay, I can't find the page in the manga with the quote I want. I could've sworm that Trisha's last words, at some point were "Tell your father I can't keep our promise...I'm dying first." or something to that effect.

So, my absolutly off the wall theory is this...(based on if Hoen is Father)...

...we have it all wrong. Father is not trying to make a giant Philosopher's Stone to prolong his life. Perhaps he already did that, some millenia ago. He gained true immortality. Now, he wants to die...to die alongside Trisha. The only way to do that is to reverse what he did before. And for that, he needs the stone.

That would atleast explain why Hoenheim is invincible. And why he seemed sad when he said "I'm a monster."

i agree and i think that hoenhiem must be father
Nepharski
QUOTE(Animeoldtimer @ Oct 11 2005, 10:40 AM) [snapback]298640[/snapback]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this idea but maybe he has a split personality?

Maybe. I entertain the thought that he's a twin.
Full Metal Elf
Hmmm...It is almost obvious that it's Hohenheim....which makes me think it may not be. It could be someone who looks an awful lot like him........a brother??

Oy! I want the next chapter now! happy.gif
Animeoldtimer
There is something off about Hohemhiem . I was just re-reading the beginning of Chapter 52.

http://groups.msn.com/FullMetalAlchemist/c...to&PhotoID=4925

On this page he talks very mechanically to Ed. He talks very emotionless. He says "What in the blue blazes are you addressing your parent as a B... for?" He doesn't say "Why did you call me that?" like a normal person would.
Full Metal Elf
^^^^ Good point....he is a little off. He always seemed a little off to me, even in the Anime (but the situation was different).

I want Chapter 53 so that we can find out!!!!!!!!!!! smile.gif
Nepharski
QUOTE(Full Metal Elf @ Oct 20 2005, 02:42 PM) [snapback]302288[/snapback]

^^^^ Good point....he is a little off. He always seemed a little off to me, even in the Anime (but the situation was different).

I want Chapter 53 so that we can find out!!!!!!!!!!! smile.gif

As I've said before, I highly suspect Hohenheim and Father are twins. To continue off someone else's theory (Forget who, I'm afraid), The two are the two sages (West and East) of Xing and Aremis.
Full Metal Elf
QUOTE(Nepharski @ Oct 20 2005, 09:00 PM) [snapback]302422[/snapback]

QUOTE(Full Metal Elf @ Oct 20 2005, 02:42 PM) [snapback]302288[/snapback]

^^^^ Good point....he is a little off. He always seemed a little off to me, even in the Anime (but the situation was different).

I want Chapter 53 so that we can find out!!!!!!!!!!! smile.gif

As I've said before, I highly suspect Hohenheim and Father are twins. To continue off someone else's theory (Forget who, I'm afraid), The two are the two sages (West and East) of Xing and Aremis.


It may be a brother...and that East/West theory is a good one! Hmmmm....it's very possible. We don't know a lot about Hohenheim, so he could very well have a twin brother (or just a brother that looks a lot like him). The brothers may have attained immortality together or something.....hmmmm....I guess we may have to wait until Chap 53 to find out more!!!!!!! NO! hehehe happy.gif
Jellybean
This arguement is just going to go back and forth unresolved until Arakawa-sensei actually reveals the truth. Maybe we'll actually find something out in chapter 53, eh? *crosses fingers*
nakagos bunny
I have a feeling it's the evil twin of Hoenheim as well. Something like that.

QUOTE(GS4Life @ Oct 6 2005, 04:39 PM) [snapback]296769[/snapback]



DAMN YOU Hoenheim! You killled Greed,



Hoenheim, his twin, whoever the father is, must die for that!!!!!!!
mad.gif
Full Metal Elf
Is Greed actually dead?? I may have to re-read that scene, but we're sure he's dead then? Just checking happy.gif...
nakagos bunny
I thought he was for sure, I didn't know there was any possibility of him being alive or brought back to life. But if there is, hey, I'm down with that! biggrin.gif
Full Metal Elf
I hope he's alive...I'll re-read it, and see if there is any possibility in it wink.gif. That was not a cool way for Greed to die! (I liked his death in the Anime better....at least it was a noble ending wink.gif)
nakagos bunny
Yeah, I didn't like it either. But then again, even if it wasn't noble like the anime, I think it was in a way.

-He didn't cave in and obey the Father just to save himself.

-He didn't cry or show any fear, like I'm sure they were all hoping to see.

So I actually found it inspirational that he doesn't show any fear, keeps his sense of dignity and does not let them get him down. That's pretty brave.^^
Full Metal Elf
^^^ Very true...he may not have put on a physical fight, but he did put on another type wink.gif.
nakagos bunny
I think the Father is almost like an anti-thesis of God, in a way.

-Has pale beard (pictures of God are often depicted this way)

-Created life

-is called "The Father", as God is called by some

-Had son hung from a cross

But unlike God the Father of the Bible, this "Father" did not kill the child for humanity's sake. (The Christian belief to anyone who doesn't know is it was God's plan for Jesus to die on the cross to pay for the sins of humanity)

Jesus dies because he obeys his father, Greed for the opposite reason.

So yeah, maybe he's like the opposite of the good God while sharing similarities.
Antimony
Very good points, nakagos bunny. There are a lot of times where alchemists are criticized for playing God ... Father is like the ultimate example of that.

*whine* Why isn't it November yet???
nakagos bunny
It's almost November.^^ When exactly in November does the new chapter come out, beginning, middle or end?
Nepharski
QUOTE(Full Metal Elf @ Oct 21 2005, 05:26 PM) [snapback]302874[/snapback]

^^^ Very true...he may not have put on a physical fight, but he did put on another type wink.gif.

Went out in a blaze of glort...err, so to speak.

And yeah, I noticed Father's god-comlex too. All he needs now is some way of giving him onimpotence. Giant PS anyone?

As far as Greed is concerned, my only complaint is that he was killed too soon. We didn't know or see a lot about him. Just five chapters and *Snap* gone. I would have liked to have seen him developed more; a rogue homonuculi.
nakagos bunny
Yeah, it's a shame when a character doesn't get enough exploration. That happened a lot in Fushigi Yuugi too. They need to give more time to some and a little less to over-exposed ones.

Though FMA doesn't have anyone too over-exposed, do they?
Nepharski
QUOTE(nakagos bunny @ Oct 23 2005, 11:17 AM) [snapback]303494[/snapback]
Though FMA doesn't have anyone too over-exposed, do they?

Edward. Duh. He's appears in about every freakin' chapter for crying out loud. Who does he think he is, the main character or something?
Kanki
QUOTE(Nepharski @ Oct 20 2005, 03:00 PM) [snapback]302422[/snapback]

QUOTE(Full Metal Elf @ Oct 20 2005, 02:42 PM) [snapback]302288[/snapback]

^^^^ Good point....he is a little off. He always seemed a little off to me, even in the Anime (but the situation was different).

I want Chapter 53 so that we can find out!!!!!!!!!!! smile.gif

As I've said before, I highly suspect Hohenheim and Father are twins. To continue off someone else's theory (Forget who, I'm afraid), The two are the two sages (West and East) of Xing and Aremis.


I wouldn't be surprised if they were older brother and younger brother o__OU It's a nice plot device to make the villain's past mistakes linked with the main hero's. Perhaps, a long time ago, Hohenheim (he looks younger, doesn't he?) and Father (perhaps the older) were just like Ed and Al. But then, something might have happened that made them attempt human transmutation. That might explain why Hohenheim has homunculi-like abilities (maybe he was the one that needed to be revived and Father suceeded, making him into a homunculus?)

I know that is a really stupid idea, but I like it xD If not, I totally agree with the either twin theory or the clone theory. The clone theory is nice because maybe Father was trying to find a way to make himself immortal so he made a clone (Hohenheim) of himself, but the clone didn't listen to him and scampered off xD
Antimony
This is going back to the Father as a God-like figure idea and Greed as his son.

If we compare Father to God, that would make his 'children' the homunculi like God's angels, since he created them and they do his bidding. Greed was the only one to rebel, which relates him to Lucifer, an angel who rebelled against God, was cast out of Heaven and became the Devil. That makes it even more ironic when Greed dies on a cross the way Jesus did. Was Greed sacrificing himself for anyone? I don't think so, but it made for a pretty memorable and dramatic death scene.
nakagos bunny
Well, I guess you could say that Father is kinda like God, but sort of the opposite of God. God would never kill his son just to be cruel to Him or for disobedience. If Jesus had refused the plan, I don't think God would kill him as some sort of vengeance, or act like he get enjoyment out of it. As we see with Lucifer, God doesn't kill him when he disobeys but just sends him off to his own domain.

So Greed is kinda like the opposite of Jesus in personality.XD Except for being friendly with prostitutes.XD (of course, Jesus' reason is totally different from Greed's)

Hm, maybe in a way one could say that if Father intended to use Greed in the future to hurt any humans, because he refuse to work for him and dies instead, that's a sacrifice? Not intentional though.

Another parallel would be that Father drinks Greed's essence like wine, in the Church wine is used to represent Christ.

Heh, yeah, I know, Greed paralleled as Jesus is a little bizarre, but it is kinda fun to think about the similarities in the deaths.

koneko
HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS!?!

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TADvAooWClN...518240044916162
Antimony
QUOTE(koneko @ Oct 25 2005, 11:29 PM) [snapback]304431[/snapback]


That would be a splash page. It doesn't prove anything.
Guest
What'chu talkin' 'bout?
Antimony
QUOTE(Guest @ Oct 26 2005, 12:00 PM) [snapback]304615[/snapback]

What'chu talkin' 'bout?


I'm saying the image doesn't prove that Hohenheim is Father.
bennu
QUOTE(Kanki @ Oct 23 2005, 09:45 PM) [snapback]303504[/snapback]


I wouldn't be surprised if they were older brother and younger brother o__OU It's a nice plot device to make the villain's past mistakes linked with the main hero's. Perhaps, a long time ago, Hohenheim (he looks younger, doesn't he?) and Father (perhaps the older) were just like Ed and Al. But then, something might have happened that made them attempt human transmutation. That might explain why Hohenheim has homunculi-like abilities (maybe he was the one that needed to be revived and Father suceeded, making him into a homunculus?)



And King Bradly has a son too, and as the boy looks out, he *could*be his father... but that's impossible biggrin.gif,isn't it?
For a homonculus to have children.
nakagos bunny
QUOTE(bennu @ Oct 26 2005, 06:30 PM) [snapback]304703[/snapback]

QUOTE(Kanki @ Oct 23 2005, 09:45 PM) [snapback]303504[/snapback]


I wouldn't be surprised if they were older brother and younger brother o__OU It's a nice plot device to make the villain's past mistakes linked with the main hero's. Perhaps, a long time ago, Hohenheim (he looks younger, doesn't he?) and Father (perhaps the older) were just like Ed and Al. But then, something might have happened that made them attempt human transmutation. That might explain why Hohenheim has homunculi-like abilities (maybe he was the one that needed to be revived and Father suceeded, making him into a homunculus?)



And King Bradly has a son too, and as the boy looks out, he *could*be his father... but that's impossible biggrin.gif,isn't it?
For a homonculus to have children.


I have a feeling it's going to turn out that that's false, that the humunculus can't have children. It'll turn out to be some kind of misinformation to the alchemists.

Because it really doesn't make a lot of sense that they can't. They're not real humans but they still apparently have blood, brains, eyes, etc., so why not reproductive organs?
Antimony
QUOTE(nakagos bunny @ Oct 26 2005, 08:03 PM) [snapback]304753[/snapback]

QUOTE(bennu @ Oct 26 2005, 06:30 PM) [snapback]304703[/snapback]

QUOTE(Kanki @ Oct 23 2005, 09:45 PM) [snapback]303504[/snapback]


I wouldn't be surprised if they were older brother and younger brother o__OU It's a nice plot device to make the villain's past mistakes linked with the main hero's. Perhaps, a long time ago, Hohenheim (he looks younger, doesn't he?) and Father (perhaps the older) were just like Ed and Al. But then, something might have happened that made them attempt human transmutation. That might explain why Hohenheim has homunculi-like abilities (maybe he was the one that needed to be revived and Father suceeded, making him into a homunculus?)



And King Bradly has a son too, and as the boy looks out, he *could*be his father... but that's impossible biggrin.gif,isn't it?
For a homonculus to have children.


I have a feeling it's going to turn out that that's false, that the humunculus can't have children. It'll turn out to be some kind of misinformation to the alchemists.

Because it really doesn't make a lot of sense that they can't. They're not real humans but they still apparently have blood, brains, eyes, etc., so why not reproductive organs?


Well, it is possible for people to be infertile even with the proper organs. I'm sure the homunculi would have a reproductive system, but there's a chance that Father made them infertile because he didn't WANT them to reproduce. Maybe he didn't want more homunculi running around then he could control?
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