Salem was adopted.

It's a good point that Father may have wanted them unable to reproduce for his own reasons, but we can't be sure he does everything perfect or according to his plan and a glitch may not occur, something he didn't intend.

Good point. Greed was a bit of an anomaly, since I'm sure Father never wanted him to rebel and run off on his own. And Gluttony was a failed attempt at recreating the Gate, so I guess Father's creations aren't always perfect.

Well to quote Greed, "There's no such thing as no such thing."

I really really like that idea. It's plausible and it makes literary sense.
One thing I don't get. The manga (Ch. 52) seemed to imply that Father in some way is the country of Amestris. Did anyone else catch that and if so, what do you think?

I'd rather say that what causes Xing people's uneasy feeling about Amestris is Father's "aura". Mei Chan says clearly that Father is a human, or rather, that he has a human "ki" (Well, Wrath also has it and he isn't but...).

that was the main thing that tipped me off, the "unease" of the xing people. however, in the very last page, i believe mei says "this is a person." she says it as if they're inside him. granted, i'm using the english translation and it might be different in the actual japanese version. but i mean, why is father hooked up to that machine?

Possible Spoiler



I would like to note that there is a single dragon facing west on the National Alchemist pocket watch, and suggest that everyone re-reads chapter 40-41

Wow, good one.

Wow. I'd say that comes just short of confirming it. "Two headed dragon?" And, looking at the dragons, 1/2 of it is the symbol for the National Alchemists...

The part I don't get is the "five suns". Aaaaaaugh, hurry up Ch 53!!!!!!

So....after Chap 54...we should BUMP this thread..because...WHAT IS FATHER!?!?!

Ok...yea..I don't know...hehe..working on theories though..

Y'know, the way they talk about alchemists trying to be like God this guy sure gives all of them a run for their money. Maybe he's the ultimate example of that, a man who truly thinks he can take God's place and actually comes close to doing it. Perhaps he, like so many other people, was dissatisfied with the true God's work and thought he could do a better job. So he developed alchemy. He's created life, he seems omnipotent and even immortal. I'll expand on this crackpot theory once I see more of Father in the manga.

Good theory.

And he certainly sees himself as a God or the like ("humans don't wake any emotion on me"). The bastard. Sure, when he created Pride he must've done it wrong, as he still left behind such a big amount.

But he's certainly not omnipotent (no can freely open the gates to TK and, whatever he wants to do on Amestris, it's taking him quite a while).

Ok...I'll post my theory here too...I think he IS some form of the Philosopher's Stone!!...My points in the other thread:

-Transmutes with no circle..AT ALL
-Ignores laws of Equivilant Exchange
-Is very Powerful
-Is capable of "eating" the Stones of the Homunculi....might have something related to that.

Yea...so...i'm going to work on developing this...but, right now..that's what I believe

All right, here's my incomplete theory...

Father IS God.

And maybe, just maybe, some 100000000000 years ago, Hohenheim tried to become God. Instead, he brought God down to earth in a near replica of his body, and only got "part" of God's power. Father was diminished slightly in power. His current aim is to undo what Hohenheim has done and return to "heaven", or wherever he came from.

I came up with this to figure out what happened when Father "dissabled" the brothers' Alchemy. Perhaps, he only turned off the no circle alchemy for them. Perhaps it is one of Father's powers as God to not need a circle (as we've seen), but others may tap into that power. So, as Ling said, when Ed claps his hands like that, he appears to be praying to God. Perhaps he IS, he's praying for just a bit of power to not need an array.

So, when Father tapped his foot, he now ignores all requests to do that. So, the brother's may still be able to transmute, but now only with circles again.

you know, that actually seems plausible...

But the way 'Father' talked about Hohenheim, it would seem that there's a deeper connection between the two.

For some reason I see that Hohenheim and Father as either colleagues in the past or even family. However, one thing for certain is Father made a PS, whether he is one, absorbed one into his body as ascribed to Hohenheim doing in the real world. He may even be one step below Truth, power-wise and may even be a course of PS development and alchemical mastery.

He may have come to a point in Alchemy where he can unmake it, case in point the null field he did to stop the Elric Bros.

Why another PS though? He wants to go to the next level. He may even want to replace Truth and become Truth itself.

For some reason he may be the Lie to the Truth.

My thoughts seem to be centering around him being either some sort of incredibly powerful Homunculus thing, perhaps even the first homunculus, or God himself, as has been suggested before. However, the only thing that could get in the way of that theory, is when Ed first recalled going into the gate, he saw a... shadow, thing. Which claimed he was him, and at the same time, he was God. So either, Ed is God, or somehow related to God, or everybody is God. Everybody has a bit of 'God' in them. Anyway, at the moment, these thoughts aint too coherent, so I'll think about it a bit more and likely post her once I've got a coherent theory.

I personally feel that "Father" created Hohenheim, but he was his first creation so he treated him as an equal.Just my theory, and I put it together wiht the clues from ch.54

god created man in his image... seems like it's going in that direction...

-__- no not like that... But I mean, Father seemed interested in Hohenheim and his family but at the same time he called Hohenheim an "it".So that's the reason I worded it that way.

thats a really good theary !

Isn't Truth supposed to be God in the FMA world? That little person who hangs out at the Gates, remember? He's the only being we've seen that could be called supernatural. Father and the homunculi may seem pretty strange and powerful, but we know they aren't gods. The theory that Father is God doesn't make sense to me. He's clearly trying to achieve some type of godhood, but he's not there yet.

Ah! Good point Antimony! I forgot about that...yes...the Truth guy did call himself God...so...that might go against it somewhat...but then...it makes me wonder, what if Father wants to be Truth!? Hmm..thinking..

Then that would make Father Lucifier.

For those unfamiliar, Lucifer was the most glorious angel in Heaven, until he tried to become God and take his place, seeing himself as equal, if not superior to, his creator. For this, he was cast down, and became Satan.

Didn't alchemy use some information from the kabbalistic practices? If not that at least the use of Enochian. Still it leads back to my theory of Father wanting to replace Truth.

Though also of interest, Satan's biggest sin was pride afterall. It makes sense in this way with Father.

Wow, that makes more sense than any other father-heim theory I've read. Regardless wheter its true or not, it just makes you think...

That could be what Trisha meant by not keeping her promise. Maybe Hohenheim left home to find a way to die, and promised Trisha that he'll be back and they'll die together. Of course after they live a life together.

What I'm beginning to think it is is that Hohenheim is the sort of "Anti-father" figure. He's the one who's destined to defeat him, blah blah blah...all that stuff. And, he cannot die until he has either accomplished that task, or failed doing it. So, perhaps he left to go try to stop Father, but he wasn't able to as quickly as he'd thought.

His plan was to finish off Father, then live a life with Trisha until they both reached the end of their lives.

Am I the only one who thinks the father might actually be a/the Philosopher's Stone?

He talks about each homonculus being made with a 'part of his soul' and stuff. And he can...Well, leak pieces of Philosopher's stone out of him, as seen when he makes the new Greed.
He has amazing alchemic power, as far as we can see too.

As for Hohenheim, he could also be a Philosopher's Stone or something, which might explain Father referring to him as 'it' and stuff.


I dunno, there could be a huge fact I've forgotten or missed that completely shoots this down...

It's certainly possible. Perhaps he successfully created one, but something happened...and now he is it, or it is him, or something like that.

Ah yes....if you read a few pages back I actually posted that theory. It occured to me too that he might be the Stone itself.....hmm..makes me wonder..




I find very funny now that Greed is in fact back....hehehe..after reading back on this thread and how we were talking about Greed possibly not being dead...then Arakawa pulls this on us. Genius....lol.

i was thinking that either hoho-papa was a copy of father or father was a copy of hohenheim through human transmutation but i really like your guys theory about father being the philosophers stone. it makes alot of sense and father and hohenheim have to be connected in some major way

i was actaully kinda happy that Greed was brought back, he was always an amusing homunculus. i enjoyed when he went and gave that message to ed and al to deliver to ran fan. Greed has always been one of a kind and pretty humorous at times

I'm happy the brought him back to. Great plot twist, regardless.

yes i cant wait to see what he does next and what damn Wrath is up to

Is it possible that father made a philosopher's stone and sealed it into Hohenheim?
Or maybe he made him with it inside, and then he ran off/got booted?

Or maybe we're back to the sages theory

so complicated-ness

I'm pretty sure that the Father and Hohenheim are the Sages.

Good theory, but why did he have to detroy that one nation to make a Stone if he is one?

Then again, those people may have been sacrifices for himself to keep him power or something...

My goodness, if I see another Illuminated who comes up with the Father-PS theory I'll.... do nothing.

But ppl, please, I agree that it is a quite probable possibility, and a good theory as well, but PLEASE, read the posts before you write yours!
This has been stated dunno how many times in dunno know how many threads all along ZOMGFTA forums, livejournal communities and here.

It's starting to get tiresome...

Sorry for the rant, but had to take it out.

EDIT PS: Post not specific against you, Full Metal Elf, is just in general U

I have no theories, but Father is quickly becoming more and more my favorite manag caharcter, due to the decided lack of Kimblee action.

He groped edo...

Father has always creeped me out... especially when all of those mini gluttonies were crawlingout of him.

What if "father" is that thing in the gate?? I mean it is yourself we know for sure because of AL! Also when Ed goes back to the gate the thing he meant the first time is there grinning with ED's arm and leg.


Crazy theory, but surely it has to do we something!! The author's always connects the dot!! (At least she does!)

~Father, AKA - Who the hell is this guy?? ~

I've posted this on like the 50th page of a thread almost a year ago, so figured I might repost in an actual topic so we can get some interesting discussion. Here's my general theory on Father and his origins, much of it is what we already know, which I have attempted to elaborate on and fill in gaps.

But please, discuss and tell me what you think. Let's figure out what this wily old fox is up to:

In the Ancient Empire of Xerxes, an alchemist of the Emperor created a Homunculus in his laboratory by drawing some of the entity that exists beyond the gate (the black eye/mouth shadow) and mixing with his slave's (Number 23) blood so it could be sustained in this world and installed it in a jar to use it's knowledge to aid the Empire and bring his beloved Emperor immortality. (Since the being is from the gate and so we assume knows “The Truth”) but once being free of the gate, this being with absolute knowledge would have a chance to gain absolute power in the world outside of the gate. This being called itself “Homunculus”.

Homunculus befriended the slave, perhaps feeling bonded by blood, named him Van Hohenheim and taught him to read, write and how to perform alchemy. When Hohenheim grew more proficient, his Master noticed and allowed him to aid in more difficult and alchemic tasks.

Soon enough the Emperor called on Homunculus for his great knowledge and asked him how to become immortal. Homunculus saw his opportunity for freedom and instructed the Emperor to construct a Transmutation Circle around the entirety of Xerxes and create bloodshed in certain points on the circle.

Once completed they gathered, the circle was activated with Homunculus and Hohenheim at the centre and all in Xerxes bar them were sacrificed to create the Philosopher’s Stone, perhaps the first Stone. Being a homunculus with no form, he could not perform alchemy, so he manipulated the Emperor to this moment so he could open the Gate and constructed a form using half the souls of Xerxes in Hohenheim’s likeness to occupy granting him a body, and using the soul’s power he could now perform alchemic feats himself.

The other half of the souls of Xerxes Homunculus gives to Hohenheim as thanks; his body too becomes a Philosopher’s Stone, immortal, powered by the souls of Xerxes. Hohenheim is devastated at what he helped do, presumably they part ways at this point.

Van Hohenheim, with his newly powered Philosopher’s Stone body, travels East to a land called Xing. Here he mixes the true alchemy of Xerxes with their arts of healing, primitive alchemy and methods to gain immortality to form the alchemy of Rentanjutsu that the Xingese now use. (A legend that becomes known as the Philosopher of the West) He leaves at some point to travel to Amestris; tiring of his immortality he settles down and starts a family.

Homunculus, who at some stage changes his name to Father, travels west and teaches the people he meets an alchemy that taps into the power of the Souls of Xerxes Father has contained in his body, which becomes known as Renkinjutsu. (A legend that becomes known as the Sage of the East) The Military State of Amestris forms, with a puppet government controlled by Father and begins to annex all the territory nearby, with perfectly precisioned battles to form a transmutation circle much like in Ancient Xerxes.

He creates more Homunculi as he once was to carry out his bidding and ensure his plans come into fruition. They are created one of two ways that is known so far, the standard Homunculus is created from a Philosopher’s Stone which becomes their core. They cannot perform alchemy, but have incredible and varying powers but are limited as once the souls of their Philosopher’s Stone are exhausted they can truly die. The other type of Homunculus is created by a Philosopher’s Stone being forced into a human’s body, an agonising process which usually just kills the subject. If successful, the Stone takes over the person’s body, becoming a Homunculus. Some part of the human that once existed still exists inside the Homunculus, but is mostly taken over by the raging personality of the Stone. Presumably they die the same way as a normal Homunculus, when the Stone’s souls are exhausted, however none of these type of Homunculi have been killed as of yet.

Father appears to be planning to use the entire country of Amestris to open the Gate as he once did in Xerxes, but what he plans to achieve by doing this is yet unknown, even becoming so bold as to come out and openly lead the State Military. He apparently requires human sacrifices, alchemists who have seen the gate themselves by performing failed human transmutations. What purpose these sacrifices are to serve is also unknown, also, Father’s goals remain unknown, as what could a being with near ultimate power desire from the gate?

EDIT: Someone obviously agrees with me. Half the stuff I've said in here has been added to Father's page on wikipedia quite recently, lol.

Also, "Bob". XD

Now srsly, the first part is just speculation for now, though. We haven't been told what Bob/Hommunculus was or where did he come from, we just know for sure that he was made from, at least, slave 23's blood.

You say it's "some of the black eye/mouth shadow"? I say please notice that the eye is different.
Truth's is a "normal" human eye (well, with concentric circles), whereas Bob's the reptilian hommunculian one.
What does this mean? Does it mean anything at all? I dunno, but just reminding you you're speculating there. He might, don't know, maybe be an imitation of the shadow inside the doors, instead of a a part of it, for example (sth similar to what he'd attempt with Gluttony later)

Otherwise, nice read.

You don't need to tell me that's it's speculation. As I said up the top, it's my theory.

Whether the eye's are different shapes or not, he's still a black shadow creature with incredible alchemic knowledge, and the only black shadows with incredible alchemic knowledge that we know of are behind the gate.

As I said, just something I'm kicking around.

About Father and The Gate....I always wondered about that, especially after seeing Pride. Maybe he gave up everything and has seen everything to see in the Gate, which is why he's in such a form. Or, maybe he comes from the Gate itself; I'm not exactly making any theories, just spouting out thoughts, as well as images:


Ignore the implied tentacle rape of Riza by Pride and focus on the hand...things themselves, and compare them to this:


The implied tentacle rape by "The Truth" to Ed.

Or:


The Truth's eye as opposed to:


Pride's eye in chapter 70.

Something about the Truth seems stronger than Pride; thicker hand thingies, different eyes (Pride's look more...evil, whereas Truth's is kind of neutral) whatever you notice. I have no idea what the similarities and differences mean. I was just throwing them out there.

I just came up with a possible solution, the "Entity" was mixed with Hoho's blood right? Human blood. The mixing of blood with the creature from the gate, corrupted it, gave it a form of mortality.

Hence why he expunged his "sins" into the Homunculi, to get rid of the human aspects of himself and become more like the pure Truth entity. So that's possibly why there are differences between the two.

So possibly, he wants to open the gate and draw more power out of it, expunge the small bit of humanity in himself and become an extremely powerful alchemic being free of humanity once again, only in the real world (Amestris, not as in the anime real world) instead of trapped behind the gate.

Whatever the case may be, the one thing that 100% can't be denied, is that there is a definite connection between Father and the Gate entity, which I believe will be becoming quite important in the upcoming chapters.

I could easily see that being the case, it's a solid theory.

Me too.

And yeah, the connection's there, certainly...

Tentacle rape is going straight into my vocabulary. But yeah, that sounds pretty plausable to me; the theory I had before those illuminating chapters was waaaaay off base! It looks like we're about to learn more about Hoho in upwards of one week though *squeel*