Yes he fell into the water before (early episode where Ed kicked him in), Al also entered into the water purposely before and into a level consistent with his position of his blood seal (the island where they found Wrath).
*cough* Basque Grand *cough* Bradley *cough* It is evident that the army already have knowledge of advanced chimera creation. They do not need to bother with or endorse Tucker's dodgy and contrevesial Chimera experiments.
Exposing yourself as a Homunculus is already a big reason to kill Al. If he wanted to kill Martyl only, why bother with opening your eye to Al? In fact, the last orders from Dante before the whole incident specifically state to get rid of the Elrics if they become troublesome. It is only when they learnt that the Elrics were the last to see Scar before the Philosopher's Stone incident that the orders become to pursue the Elrics. Obviously the whole sprare Al-kill Martyl was just a badly thought up plot device meant to use the manga material while trying to reconcile it with their own pathetic plot.
Not while you were evidentedly totally within a globe of energy that annihlated everything except sand (everything in it was gone except for sand, amazingly). That people but not buildings can survive is something already suspicious. And the fact that Archer was standing in that globe totally is indisputable. In the episodes there were buildings behind him while the direction of the center of Lior was in front of him. We see from a grand sweep that the energy encompassed everything as well as from early image that the transmutation symbol was spread throughout the whole ruins. If all buildings were consumed, Archer was definitely in the globe and should suffer the same fate as the ruins (i.e. total annihlation).

Man, dude. Picky, nitpicky. If you hate the series so much and thinks it has so many plotholes, why do you continue to watch every episode? There must be something compelling about it for you to keep watching.

TheVileOne is right, if you really think that FMA has so many flaws then you should stop watching it, I mean Japan and other countries now (Korea, China) make a lot of anime matching all tastes so you'd better get another one.
If you like simple plot like "Me good, you evil" then catch up Pokemon or kiddie stuff, you won't be deceived.
If you like complex plots with no plotholes then go Ghost In The Shell: Standalone Complex but it is very tricky.
If you like violent/crude anime then you could go for a Blue Genderlike anime.
If you like only crude ones then go Hentai.
If you like long series but a little bit mature (just a little bit) then go Rurouni Kenshin and it's long (90+ episodes) but don't go for the OAVs, they are too mature for child minds except for the movie which is still kids oriented.

... i'm staying out of this one, but all i have to say is: The new background music is still awesome, it suits "Lyra" too!! XD

When did Pride open his eye to Al?

When he opened his eye, he was staring into the grating in Al's chest (and his face was extremely close to it too, judging from Martyl's viewpoint). Last I checked, Al looks through the eyeholes in the helmet, not the grating in his chest. So he couldn't have seen the eye.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but that's what I gathered from it.

For those able to read chinese, ep46 is out now.

woah tooooo lazy to read the whole thread lol.
some people like writing stories, eh? ^^

I just went back and watched the part in ep. 3 where Al goes in water, and all that happens is he gets knocked into a large puddle, and it splashes over his exterior. He doesn't get submerged. And in ep. 28 when they're fishing he only sits waist-deep, which wouldn't affect the blood seal.

You people need to pay closer attention before you start bitching about plot holes.

Archer survived because Ed trasmuted the surroundings. You can see it before the comercials

I could be wrong, but if I understand correctly, Tuckers creations were a big deal because nobody thought any humans were involved. Merging a human and an animal is one thing (that's relativly easy), but merging two animals to get a talking one? That's quite another. It was a massivly big shock to the army when they learned he was using humans (remember how they 'executed' him right away?)

Nobody seemed all that impressed when they realized Greeds gang were Chimeras- humans merged with animals, because that, while most likely taboo, is still easy.

-edit-
So unless you have something better, we just cleared up all your plot holes.

Yes, Al didn't see the uroboros tatoo on the eye of Bradley, he knows that Bradley is an homonculus because Martyl said that before she died.

At this moment, Bradley didn't know that Martyl and Al were friend, and may be he didn't know that Martyl said to Al he is an homonculus, that's why he have no reason to kill him.

I'd just like to point out that you shouldn't confuse plot holes with parts of the story that haven't been explained yet. Even if Pride chose to reveal his identity (I don't think he did reveal it though) this is not necessarily a plot hole. It will only become a plot hole if it goes unexplained by the end of the series.

I also agree that in Episode 3 where Al is kicked into the water the water level isn't even up to his seal. The same goes for the fishing scene.

Archer survived because he wasn't totally in the circle. Look at where the red light hits - he lost the body parts that were hit by the red light.


Personally I keep watching it despite how inconsistent is because I like to make fun of it, which I do w/my parody. =x

Seriously, I was going to be another lurker watching all these and not getting involved but some of you make me wonder if you guys ever watched the episodes or even have basic logic skills before trying to find 'incongruities' (my preferred term) or disputing them.

Alphonse (Ep 44, time 05:44) - I saw the Oruboros(how you spell that?!) on his eye.

He saw the symbol. Pride did showed it to him. I cannot be bothered to argue over the reasons but the fact is Pride showed the symbol to Alphonse.

Alphonse (Ep 28, time start from 09:23) - The level of sumergence (before this moment) was inconsistent however at the start of this time, Alphonse was shown to be above elbow deep in water. He stood up came to shore, and while upright, unbuckled his chest plate. The lower lip of his lower torso armor is just below what we call the sternum. For water to flow out while standing upright means that the water level in his body is above that level. So yes the probability of water actually in contact with this seal was very, very high and likely since water would splash around when he walks, meaning the water could actually reach the collar level. And if there was ever a problem with water contacting the seal, would a brother who love you, willingly push you into a situation where you might be in danger? What would happen if Alphonse landed on his back in the water during that fight in Risenbool? Did Edward even cared one bit about that?

What the heck. Most animes have terrible 'incongruities' and FMA is no exception. I think the majority of us just watch without caring. I'm only watching because the graphics are very nice and the fights are refreshing and quite well done. I would not call the story grand or anything, in fact most of the so called milestones, e.g. Dante being the mastermind and Hohenheim beign the good guy, I spotted long ago against some people's insistence otherwise. But so what? *shrug*

Those of who insist on defending the real plotholes should either get your act together or just sit back and relax like me. I do know that some of these 'incongruities' finders love the series, they just are looking for things that poke at their minds. In fact their passion for the series is what led them to find these things in the first place. They do love the series, that's why some of them keep watching and criticising. A masochistic love I guess

*cracks knuckles*

The Blood seal was always vunerable. Techniclly he should be afraid of ANYTHING touching it. One scratch and a part of his soul could be released or infact all of it.
In the island episode he did not fully submerge himself int he water and as you know the bloos seal is right below a humans neckline, thus the water wouldn't have hit him. As for him falling...COME ON! He didn't fall, thats all that should matter.

Chimeras: Remember that they were not Chimeras during the Ishbal war. They were normal soliders ordered to kill the Ishbal people. They were then arrested and brought to the fifth laboratory and then were turned into Chimeras. Through the use of the red-water P.Stone tucker was able to create Chimera..

Pride: Pride has the all seeing eye. He knew where Martyl was the entire time but decided not to reveal himself until she revealed him to Al. The reason he did not kill her is because 1)Dante didn't tell him too. 2)The Homunculus want Al and Ed to create the Philosiphers stone so why in the world would they kill him? >__>

Archer was only half way through the circle when it was activated...re-watch the episode. Just like Ed a part of his body was taken to create the stone, did Ed's whole body disappear when he saw the Gate? :-/

If you watch the part where Archer is being engulfed by light, the parts that are in the light match with the parts that he is missing - the right side of his face (looking at him face to face, that is, looking at him from behind it's his left half)

Well, I didn't know that. Haven't seen 44 yet. I can only go by what I saw, and from all that I could tell, Al couldn't have seen the Ouroburos (I think that's how it's spelled, heh) tattoo on his eye.

But, I see I was wrong in thinking that now. Thanks for the clarification.

Let me quote an above Guest since it is obvious you lack his logical skill and reasoning...

Summary:
- Alphonse seen up to elbows in water
- Alphonse stands up from kneeling position and walks ashore
- Alphonse removes chest plate while standing upright.
- Water spills out quickly hence water level in armor definitely is much higher than the 'lip' i.e. sternum level (go find out if you never learn where that is)
- Water does splash around in his armor while walking, hence water is everywhere in the chest area

And what is about falling into water? Alphonse was kicked into the water. No way would Edward know how Alphonse is going to land or how far the water will run inside his armor. Yet Edward doesn't care. Face it, the above guest is right.

I think that same guest was correct again when he wonders if some people ever watches FMA. Was Marcoh still around when Tucker came to the 5th Laboratory? No he ran off just before the Ishbal War and yet he was there at the 5th Laboratory when the special forces were brought in. The advanced chimeras themselves stated they were made into chimeras 14-15 years ago right after they sparked off the Ishbal war. Tucker was not their creator. They were created before he came and like they said they were trapped in 5th Laboratory until Greed freed them.

Uh hmm, obviously again you didn't bother to watch FMA or you would have known that the last order from Dante before the whole Alphonse-Bradley issue, to the whole homunculus gang was to 'help Scar make the Stone' & 'kill the Elrics if they get in the way'. Dante only changed the order to pursue the brothers after the Lior incident with the disappearance of Scar and that the Elrics were the last at the scene.

Again you didn't watch the episode where behind Archer were buildings, in front of Archer the light. After the whole big light show was gone, nothing (buildings or otherwise) was left behind except sand. From the aerial photos, the sign encompassed the whole Lior city.

- For everything to be vanished, the light engulfed the whole city
- To have buildings behind Archer while he would be facing the light means that he is within the city.
- Hence he is within the light totally

OMG DOES NO ONE ACTUALLY GO BACK AND CHECK THEIR INFO!!!!




Note, that shows how deep his body was in the water...about waste high, way below the blood circle.



Now note where the water is pouring out. If the water level was high enough to even get near touching the blood circle, then it would be pooring out the armpits at least(where the arms connect to the torso). Anywho, the water level does not have to be higher than what is pouring out, if he was in there long enough for it to fill it, which he had to be to catch fish.



Note how theres a clothe interupting your view of the water level...this may be why people are saying it went that high, but everything else shows that it didnt.

addition to the post, although in the third shot, its a bit inconsistent with the first two, as the water stream in the front is hgiher than where he was in the water>.<

The guest already mentioned about the inconsistency. But like the one above pointed out, the water is already pouring out of levels way above where the water supposedly reaches.

By your reasoning, you mean that water in a glass will flow out even if the water level is below the 'lip'? Boy, every physicist in the world would sure like to see that gravity-defying event!

Closer study would say:
1st pic - water level just below elbows, pay attention to that bowl v-shaped armor in front.
2nd pic - water level at elbow level. That bowl v-shaped thingee's bottom is touching the water.
3rd pic - water 'leaking' at the bowl v-shaped thingee level, meaning that unless your water is able to defy gravity and laws of physics, the water level in that armor is above that 'leaking' spot. With it leaking even, it can be said that the water level in his armor before he even got up from the water would actually be higher at that time.
4th pic - Al opening his chest plate. Water flows out, meaning the water level is definitely not below elbow level at that time already, but a reinforcement of the fact that it was initally definitely higher than at least elbow level since you have to factor in the 'leaks' and initial pouring of water when he opened the plate at the initial moments.

Congratulations! You've proven more plotholes than trying to solve them! Take more physics lessons in the future on fluid behavior!

the guest is right. there are plotholes!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA who cares its a damn cartoon

OMG...Hell, I was the guest who made the comment about the inconsistency. Anywho, you didnt really see the details that well, so Ill highlight them again

2nd is consistent with the first, in fact Ill blow up the picture around alphonse so you can tell:


The third and fourth are consistent with each other, but inconsitent with the 1st and 2nd, as they show the water level was slightly higher than what it could have been with him in that deep. This inconsistency is the only plot-hole I see, if you can even call it that. Anywho, the third proves that the water level wasnt high enough for it even to be close to the transmutation circle, as if it was higher than the armpits, water would be coming out there, which it is not. It's above the waste and below the armpits, while the circle is pretty close to the top of the shoulders, the water could never touch it unless Al mtilted a lot.

The fourth doesnt really show anything other than it was higher than the cloth, but not by much seeing as the cloth doesnt really move.

Congrats, you didnt really look at the details in the picture and think that the water level is higher than it is. No plot holes here>.<

BTW, I misread your lip statement, sorry.

No, EpYoN you are definitely not the same guest who posted about the inconsistency. I'm talking about the Guest who posted on 4:31AM who was a lurker (and I assume he still is). For one, your writing style is different. For another, he does not make the spelling mistakes you are making. For three, he is making the assertion that the water level is inconsistent and high enough to reach the blood mark which you are not (meaning he says there's a plothole but he doesn't care, while you are saying no plothole). If you want to take some guest's credited post, create one yourself instead of trying to steal one.

As for claiming your third pic being proof the water is not high enough. As already stated many times, go read up your physics on fluid dynamics. For the water to be 'leaking'/squirting in that manner at that level, it means there is a lot of water above that level.





The water is squirting, not dropping down or spilling over meaning a high water level above that point.

Fluid Dynamics links:
http://www.tki.org.nz/r/science/sciencesch...rpressure_e.htm
http://www.plus2physics.com/hydrostatics/s...hapter=1&page=2
http://www.school-for-champions.com/scienc.../expfluids2.htm

The fact is your pictures show contradictory facts about the levels at different points in the anime which is a plothole (inconsistent facts) itself besides the sudden vulnerability of the blood mark to water.

One thing, is the water is at such an angle you cant tell if its falling or squirting, but again one would assume if its high enough, water would be coming from the armpits. Another thing, it shows the back of al prior to this pic and water is flowing out in areas that are underneath areas that are squirting, which go to prove that the people animating this dont know a damn thing about fluid dynamics.



As I see that, the properties of fluids aren't being followed well. So all physics is negated in proving this a plot hole. Maybe fluids are different in this universe?

But then again, perhaps Im mistaken.

[edit] I see now, which post you were talking about>.<

"But like the one above pointed out, the water is already pouring out of levels way above where the water supposedly reaches."

BTW, I wasnt trying to steal anything, if you note the "Guest" post just after my first one notes an inconsistency. Noting that there are two posts saying that, and one is mine, then I can safely say that a post about an inconsistency is mine.


"For another, he does not make the spelling mistakes you are making"
Just ran my posts through a spell checker...guess what, two typos>.< + me going anywho instead of any who, which is a querk of mine, seeing as though to me it's one word(any who, doesnt make any sense). Also, it picked up me not doing conjunctions right, but they are spelled correctly...Im just too lazy to type the apostrophe>.<
[/edit]

*sigh*

ANd today children, we learn about the diffrence between 'plot hole' and 'animation error'

Look properly, those areas you call 'flowing' are squirting. It is the angle which you are viewing them which makes you think they are flowing (the same lack of knowledge of perspective fault that those claim Ed is missing his left arm in ep1 which he didn't, are making). If the water is flowing, it should splash onto the armor and flow along its contours which the 2nd and 3rd streams of water from the left are not doing.

The so-called armpit level is actually at the mid-level of the v-shaped protrusion of the upper chest level (looking at all previous animations of Alphonse, e.g. left shoulder of Alphonse ep 16, time 16:16 & 20:53 ), meaning by your logic, water can rise to that level. And with splashing around, the seal would be affected.

As for the placement of the seal, watch ep17 time 14:53. We are viewing at a roughly 30-45 degree angle from the vertical axis into the armor, which means the depth of perspective has been decreased by approximately half. We can visibly see that the seal is definitely below shoulder/neck level by a clear margin. So in actual fact it is actually another distance deeper down, somewhere actually around the top 1/4 level mark of the torso (excluding neck). Hence that would place the seal just at armpit level or slightly above it.

No, today the lesson is 'plot holes' do exist in FMA and that some of those disputing that are mistaken by their perspective of viewing and for others, a lack of logic.

oh deary deary me, what have we here.

a boy who can change physical objects using the power of his mind alone.
a huge suit of armour with a boys soul attached to it
an after life which is just a massive door with eyes in it.
tons of impossibly proportioned people with super human abilitys.

and you guys are hung up about how un-scientific the water flow animation is in a couple of scenes?

seriously, its a friggin cartoon! it has a great story, and while it does have a few plot-holes here and there you cannot really close the case until the series has come to an end, the blood seal would of crusted and fallen off long ago if this was based within the realms of reality, not that a 10 foot soul attached armour would exist in reality tho

Water stuff:

Only certainty there is is that there's a cloth hanging before the water so we can't be sure how high it was, only speculate, nope, no certainties here.

Archer stuff:

I'm kinda thinking he'll come back in action as a chimera of sorts

Water:
Ok, in the FMA world, Al hasn't gotten his bloodseal wiped off, no matter where the water was. A TINY splash won't ruin the bloodseal. When Ed kicked Al into the water, either he wasn't concerned about the bloodseal, or he didn't know. In terms of the position, it is an anime, the perception from our perspective is limited, knowing EXACTLY where the seal is, is near-impossible, but in the meantime, I'm assuming around neck- back of the head region. not ONCE in the series, prior to him being the P. Stone, is he sumerged to that point, and even if it were close, obviously Al did something, possibly leaned forward to stop the water from hitting the back, to prevent the blood seal from beign tampored.

To all those who went in to scientific explanation on this, first, your wrong, second, your sad. Analyzing something so non-important as this is reletively pathetic. Go analyze something else if your doing this much work, and if your not doing that much work, then don't even bother unless you write up a damn good report.

Ok just ignore the Geust. He/she is just trying to cause trouble.

If you do not like FMA DO NOT COME TO AN FMA FORUM!

The water was up to his waste so as he was walking out of the wwater it would sink, slowly because there was not much room for it to escape but it would NOT have rose about 10 inches to his blood seal -___-

Is the sub out yet?

yeah is it out?

About Al:
I think Al's seal is located near his neck because Ed was little when he trasmuted him to the armor and don't think that his arm could reach lower. That way Al is able to get to certain point in water and still the seal wont be affected.

There are certain rules that an anime sets for itself - one of them is that Alphonse's seal cannot be touched [to Martel: "don't touch the blood seal or i won't exist"], and if one of those rules is contradicted or broken, then it creates a plot hole.

Ever thought Al may be worried about being wiped from existance and the only reason both he and Ed fear the vulnerability of the seal is through concern for Al, Im sure they cant 100% say the seal will be broken on contact with water, its just a precausion.

Questions after seeing 46 raw. Since I dont know when the subbed is going to be release could any of you that know japanese awnser some of this questions?

Does Al armor disappear a little each time the PS is used??
Also is the Serpentcross has a meaning in the series? I mean for one reason Dante did have that golden one her library, Izumi has one also. Dante even draw a big one on a transmution circle the time she faced Greed.
What is this city under Central?

-Yes, Al, as the Philosopher's Stone, does deteriorate little by little as its power is used. This would explain how Dante managed to use up the stones originally created by Hohenheim.

-The crucified serpent is one of a number of symbols important to alchemy, symbolizing purification and 'fixing of the volatile'. However, the symbol in FMA has been combined with the Caduceus staff, which is a symbol of harmony and balance.
The crest is borne by great alchemists, says Izumi.

It would also appear that the world FMA takes place in is an alternate reality where Christianity was displaced as the pre-eminent religion of the Western world as a result of the enlightenment age [which in reality did cause the church to edit its official views on a number of matters, but I guess in this world it didn't survive] and the emergence of alchemy as a form of practical mysticism/pseudoscience.

I guess the city underneath Central was a remnant from the Christian era and was built over.

Greed does say in the manga, "There are places in this world that the sun doesn't reach."

Brings new meaning to the word "Watergate"

nyuk nyuk.

Man, you goes should watch things like pleasantville, because if you think these are "major plotholes..."

some people really like to argue..

*swirly eyed*

Ai ai ai! That argument made me dizzy as hell! Please people, just let us keep our sanity here. Debates like that send the weak to the funny farm.

*twiddles lips while making coockoo noises*

I think Archer will be the new greed, I mean, he IS kinda greedy, all he wants is war basicly, so i think pride will kill him and Dante will make him the new greed


but Im glad it looks like Sloth will get owned in the next episode, I hate her, not as much as Wrath who is just a baby ***** who is a queer just going after Eds body

and WTF is happening to Al? and one thing im wondering is why didnt Dante just take over Izumis body? I mean, she was there, and good enough, it would have been so easy to just take over her body

man, they better have a good ending with like, Envy being good and being a good brother to Ed and Al, umm, Lust still being alive or something, Dante being dead, and like, Gluttony works with Winry and her Grandma cutting metal with his mouth...oh, and Eds dad comming back, but the mom stays dead, and who knows if Al should have his old body or not, I mean, if he had his old body he would have been killed 10,000 times in the series

Archer can't be a homunculus... he's not even dead yet.

One stabwound to the heart is all it'll take... Then they can just use the ol' jintai rensei and presto! New Greed.
Come to think of it, Archer would make the ideal homunculus, since like Wrath, they could just use his corpse and the rest of his body was used as an ingredient for the philosopher's stone, so there'd be less of a 'toll' to pay for whoever transmuted him, ostensibly...

i think that dante probably considered that, but after izumi lost all those organs in the failed human transmutation, she wasn't very healthy and probably not the best candidate. if izumi died, dante would have to switch bodies again, and that takes a bite out of dante's power and philosopher stones

Well, from the looks of it, Nina might be Greed...

So Envy was Hohenheim's original son.

Perhaps he is jealous for his father's love? The one who abandoned him all those years ago?

Frankly I'm surprised that Dante let Lust go with Wrath and Sloth, since she became a bit of a liability for the homunculus team. Maybe that's why they didn't send Gluttony with her, if he was there, who's to say he wouldn't have sided with Lust, then there would be 3 homunculus (+Greed) who are out of Dante's control.


What's with this surprise war in the North lands? What is Dante planning while the main military force is out of Central City? If it was to prepare the city for an event like in Lior, wouldn't it make more sense to have the soldiers (i.e. more people) STAY? Then again she is trying to off Mustang and Armstrong.

And Archer = New Greed? Possible, but what's preventing Archer from running out of control like the first Greed?

Did Dante ever say that Envy is Hohenheim's biological son?
It might just be that he created Envy... "Father" who created him.
Well, I don't know. He probably is Hohenheim's true son. ^^

well, I have no idea why Nina would be Greed, she wasnt Greedy at all earlier in the series or anything

but the reason I think Dante could have taken over Izumi at anytime is because Izumi lost her insides only 5 years before the the current time, and seeing how Dante is her teacher kinda, I bet that Izumi would have been there earlier on

Well, she probably wanted to use the old body until she really couldn't live in it anymore, because didn't want to waste the PS too much.