It's not murder because it's not a human your aborting,it's a fetus.It's more like a useless organ than a person for the first few weeks,in which time it's safe to abort.

That's subject to serious debate, however. Regardless of whether one wishes to think of the fetus as a parasite, if the fetus is considered having any human traits at all, then it can be classified as killing a human, which is typically considered wrong (except for under certain limited circumstances).

Defining the fetus as human at any trimester is fairly arbitrary and can be well maintained as human at time of conception.

I just think it's stupid that it's "Evil" to "murder" a fetus that won't be loved/healthy/happy.If it's aborted your a Murderer and if you don't look after the child your a monster or you put the child up for adoption and it feels rejected.
It's loose loose unless you except abortion as a sad nesesity(sp?).
Just don't treat it like contreception.

That's a social issue and not an ethics issue. Ethics are what guide whether it's right or not right for abortion, not social problems. Our inability to deal with social problems are why we break our ethics.

I just can't see why some people write off abortion so quickly.
Seems to me that these people want the Impossible.

They want;
no babies to be aborted,
Mom, Dad and Baby to live in perfect harmony

But they also don't want;
Incest babies,
Mums dying in birth,
Diseased babies,
Malformed babies,
Crack addicted Babies,
unwanted babies.

but these things are still going to occor.
Looks like they'd rather have a baby live a long miserable life than no life at all.

Sorry if I'm not debating or spelling well but it's 5am here...

Again, you're speaking about two different issues that do eventually need to be reconciled. First, however, the issue of whether it is actually right or wrong to abort must be decided. Social problems must come second to ethics. We don't just kill anyone just because we have problems with them socially. It's still ethically wrong to kill people who have not actually committed crimes, but are technically going to based on history/genetics, etc...

I don't like to solve problems first by fixing the social consequences and then decide my ethics. I would rather decide my ethics and then work on how social consequences can be managed. Ethics based on social consequences leads to many undesired scenarios.

...but that's exactly what people SHOULD be doing when deciding on public policy issues. What's good for society might not always be right by everyone's ethical standards.

Ok the Ethics of Clinical Abortion:A Tired Welsh Boys views.

Cons;
*God doesn't like it apprently
*Considered Murder by some
*Not giving a life a chance
*Some people could use it as a type of contreception.("Don't worry if I get knocked up,I can just have it terminated")
*Can't change your mind after
*Some people will do it for wrong reasons("it'll stop me from getting my husband" or " Do it!I can't have my mistress have my illigitimate child!")

Pros:
*Stop a child from harsh painfull life
*Stop the mother from resorting to wire coat hangers.
*Potentialy save mother life if she is to young/weak to have the baby
*Some people keep the Baby for bad reasons("It was Gods will for us to 5 kids despite the fact that we can barely feed 2")

Seems like the cons out number the Pros but the Pros have more wheight behind them IMO.

In the Grand scale of things I think abortion is important an could stop alot of suffering.

If you declare Abortion as unethical and make it illegal for Doctors to preform then the Mums are just going to go into nasty back alley clinics and risk dying themselves.

Declaring Abortion Unethical will lead to more deaths than if you aloud it.

No what I meant is if the baby has a desease that will kill the child soon after birth and possibly the mother.

so you are for killing the fetous if it/its mother has a fatal problem?

Dosnt by making that statement bring into question again the feelings of the mother, what if the mother dosnt want to abort?

IMO it should be wholy up to the parents, and I do mean parents as it is a joint action.

So in the US, why don't we just throw out the Constitution, get rid of all individual protections and allow the government to fully dictate our lives. Appealing to social good is too elitist and is the rational behind tyrants.

If we don't begin with an ethical foundation, we risk losing too much. The very foundation of the freedoms allowed in the US Constitution are based on an ethical system first and public policy second. The freedoms in the Constitution are designed to create social disorder. If we interpret that disorder away, then we risk watering down any freedoms allowed to the point that they cease to exist.

The plain fact is that killing another human being is illegal in the US because it is considered unethical. If it is found that a fetus is considered human, then abortion must be considered illegal regardless of the social consequences (this is a big if, but does follow logically). There are many cases where people who kill others who drain social resources are put in jail (i.e. killing a homeless person or a drug dealer, etc...).

The issues for abortion seem to really be:
- when is it ethical to kill a human?
- Is a fetus ever human?

If a fetus is ever considered human, then:
- Is there a condition listed above that applies to the fetus at the time the fetus is considered human?

In my humble oppinion as an awnser to those Questions

~It isnt ethical to kill another human, no matter what they have done, I am glad we abolished capital punishment
~A fetous becomes a human when It is born, this is after changing from a parasite to a human being

~breathing, being able to ingest food.
those are two of the list

That would make it a living thing not a human.It has no personality and sense of self and there by doesn't think it's human.Who are we to argue?

Wich is the point I was going for, Im not saying a fetus isnt a living thing, its just not human "yet".

So it's Ok to abort it within a certain ammount of time.

I don't think it's right to abort, only in some cases, but even then I must say that I think it's wrong. Only if it endangers the mother's life or she was raped, the endangerment of the mother's life might be an acceptable reason for abortion, but for rape I think you might as well have the child and at least put it up for adoption. If the child comes out with a disorder then it's understandable, but should you take away the child's life immediately without letting him or her live? Life is full of risks, and people all die at some point, it is inevitable, but I think to take away a future human's life is sick.

Has anyone actually watched what happens in the process of abortion? It is sick and disgusting and inhumane to just watch the baby be sucked into a tube while watching its will to survive and struggle to keep on living as it is completely helpless.

And if you're ok with that, I can't understand why. It is still a living thing that can grow up to be something great. If you watch a murder, someone getting repeatedly stabbed, are you ok with that? But then you say the baby isn't a human yet, but... Do you have a pet or anything loyal to you? Would it be ok to just poke holes in it while it's eyes just stare at you confused and helpless?

Abortion is wrong. IMO<--- Edited because of Popo. XD

It's unfair to have a woman go through 9 months of holding her rapists baby then go throuhg the pain of birth and all the emotional turmoil.let her deal with it in the way she deems best.Give her counciling and if she has a partner make sure they know whats going on aswell.



But what if that life was going to be nothing but Painfull operations and treatment for the problem.Death would be a release for them.Don't le people suffer needlessly.



That depends on the type of Abortion treatment.There are more than one type.There are pills for early stages which are alot less grim.
Just becaus ethe proceedure is nasty doesn't mean it's wrong.Ever seen an Enema?



Thats completly diffrent.A stabbing/shooting is inflicting suffering on someone who can feel the pain.A fetus can't.



My friend just had to put his Dog down today.Not long ago actually.
I'd put my loyal, lovely Dog down if it was going to suffer.



In your oppinion.

Actually as a random aside:

Do you find it wrong that abortion is "playing God" in a sense?

People have played God for ages.
Look at Austrailia.They had no Cows untill we came along and stuck them there.But there was natural way for the dung to be broken down so they had to import Dung Beetles which took over becaus ethey had no preadators.
Aus is still messed up some what.

Then we have dogs which we manipulated and controled to make new breeds.

Oh and look at farming.Playing God again by controling the growth of plants and cattle.

Playing God is one of Humanitys best skills.

A fetus is not sentient. A human being or an animal is. There is a big difference.

If you were to try to suck a tapeworm out of someone it would fight back as well, a parasite does not want to abandon it's host of course so it will put up a fight.

This is to confusing, but what I was basicly trying to say was it's the mother's/parent's choice

A newborn baby will put up a fight too. What makes a newborn sentient? In essense any baby or child is a social parasite. My daughter is an economic/social parasite depending on me to provide food, shelter, love, etc... She eats up precious resources. Of course I would never think of killing her. But for the social good, others may disagree.

Where I was going with this is that......
-pre-mature babies probably wouldn't survive without medical care. Nor would we be able to live as long as we can now without medical technology, medication and medical treatment. Hence human intervention...hence playing God on a fairly grand scale of things if you think about it.

Interesting that there's a significant amount of unwanted infants being killed every year (in some cases because of the gender of the child). Now why do I hear more media attention on the topic of abortion than that?

I belive that afew months before birth the babys brain is completed and starts to become aware...

Hmmm... I don't think it's "Playing God"...

And no, I've never seen an enema before, but that and abortion are very different things...

And I don't know about Fetus's and if there's been studies on it, but who says a fetus can't experience pain? And what has the poor baby ever done to deserve it? And it shouldn't matter what type of abortion it is, it's still undeserving and painful (IMO). The fetus's done nothing wrong, just trying to get born and live.

But, it can be the mother's choice, and it should be, but the mother should be informed about things like these, and if the mother would like to experience guilt afterward then that's fine with me, it should be their choice, but I still believe it's completely wrong anyway. I'm not saying they will feel guilt after, but they might and probably will.

Then again, your beliefs on issues like these also show what your religion is, mostly.

That is a belief statement that really can't ever be proven. Who knows when "awareness" comes up? Most of the actions of a newborn appear more instinctual than "thoughtful".


You can still be against abortion and not have any religious agenda. It's all about what you believe regarding whether a fetus is a human being and if so, whether it is ok to kill a fetus.

A newborn baby and a child is no longer a parasite since it can live outside the mother but I see your point.

In that case we are all parasites since we need what the earth provides to live.


That's because their only worth protecting when they are a precious fetus. Once they reach toddler age screw 'em, let's go save some more fetuses.

I'm sure some arbitrary study of monitoring brainwave patterns in different parts of the developing fetus would give us some sort of inidication....but that's largely unethical =D....although nowadays we can use different MRI techniques to look at the fetus' brain activity.

...which is why it's much easier to look at stages of in utero development in deciding what constitutes a living human.

Well, the earth should probably abort all of us then


I wouldn't trust that science can still get it right regarding that. Also it doesn't matter. Would we allow the killing of already born people who are not self aware (or at least don't meet the brainwave pattern standard)?

Both removing unwanted stuff from a person.Try a Lumpectomy (Removal of a tuma).Those a nasty,especialy prostate tumas or bain tums.



People have found out through disection of fetuses that they have neither the Brain development or nervous system to feel pain.



You keep looking at Abortion as if it's souly to punish the fetus.It's to save it from suffering or leading a shitty life or even saving the Mum.



Ofcourse they told all about the proceedure,ramifications and given full counciling.



The Mum is almost always going to feel guilty. It's unfair to lump even more guilt on them by screaming "murder".It could drive them to doing something stupid.



It's also wrong to let a baby be born if it's going to suffer,kill the mum or be unwanted and unloved.

hey, Didnt Bacon ban shrinpy fro this topic, or was that the evo/creat topic? XD

There are so many diferrent arguments going on here now,
We have gone back to the argument on fetus, human or not again
also yet again religion is braught into this

But then we can see if the brain embryological development of the fetus.....as in if it's life is terminated...will it even feel anything. Pain and other senses are really just electrical signals and these can be quantified and tested.

And apparently you have a crystal ball that allows you to know this about a child? This is the worst type of consequentialist thinking out there. You have no ability to know what someone will accomplish good or bad. Suffering is also a part of human experience.


That's more of a descriptive analysis, but the results do not really help ethically. What is does not allow us to know what ought to be.

It was the Evo topic.



The ball is made of Solenium actually.
Suffering is one of the tricky reasons for abortion I admit but it is a reason.The parents would know if they won't love the child or be able to afford to give it a good or even decent life.

Adoption is always a great solution to problems such as those.

Parents know nothing about their abilities to deal with children. I am a parent that only realized that I could handle a child after having one. There are many others I've known that are exactly the opposite (believed they could be good parents, but are horrible ones). Parents are the worst judgers of when a child should be aborted as they have no foresight into their own abilities economically or emotionally.

Aaaahhhh, I said mostly . I have a friend who's atheist but he doesn't support abortion, but your religous beliefs at least reflect some of (probably most of) your political views. And shrimphead!? That hurts... You get everyone else's name right when you quote them! Why am I looked down upon so much? (Rhetorical question. Most people would say age.)

And, I don't look at abortion souly to punish the fetus. I just said that I think it's a bad process, not that it was to punish the unborn baby. It can save the mother's life and save money for a family that could be poor treating a disease or disorder. I just don't think it's fair, but most things aren't, anyway.

And that was the Evolution vs. Creationism I was banned from. I might not like all the decisions made, but I respect them (unless it's something very dumb).

If it's going to suffer because of a genetic disease, then this will guarantee suffering...
different genetic disorders have different effects:
- high chances of still births
- mental retardation
- muscular abnormalities/ lack of muscle coordination
- infertility
- very low life expectancy

A new offshoot of this would be IVF...
Especially needed in parents who want a child but have a genetic disorder themselves or are carriers:
in the process of IVF you end up creating several embryos....and these embryos are eventually discarded ( since only one is needed for the parents) Is this the same as abortion? Are the parents making the right decision by making sure that the child they have for example doesn't have Sickle Cell Anemia?

True but you can't force a woman to carry a baby she knows she doesn't want.It's just as unfair to put through the Emotional and physical pain as it is to have the fetus terminated.Either way is undesirable but in the end it's down to he mum.

And Rember Nay sayers;
The are worse alternitaves than a clinical abortion.

Any argument I give here would be purely academic and not reflect any actual beliefs. I'm currently in crisis regarding my thoughts on discarded embryos. Although I am not a scientist, I work at an organization that uses human fetal tissue in efforts to cure cancer, but I also do have a strong sense that at conception, there is a human being. Currently for me it's a matter of needing the job and liking my work, but obviously I'm technically a hypocrit (although I'd prefer a gentler term).

Meh don't worry I had to go against my own principles in order to do some research...
...animal testing >_<....
afterwards I was more at ease with testing on human beings...
It's nice to know that the stuff I was doing on animals...is now in use on people...but still I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth when I think back to those days.

A fetus' nervous system doesn't begin developing until the second month of pregancy, and pain receptors don't appear until the middle of the second trimester, so no, a fetus can't feel pain unless the abortion is late-term.


You use the word 'always' too lightly.

Animal testing deerves it's own thread.it's usefull for medicen but not for cosmetics.Thats what Hobos are for.
Human tesing is better becasue we can say no butit's more expensive and if one human dies then so does the project which could be a mistake.

Back on topic though ...

I suppose I did, but I was trying to present it in a general way, or as a sort of "Hey, you forgot about this option!" manner. And it just didn't have the right tone without the 'always'.

Ailuro is right. Adoption is always a great way to solve the problem (Unless the baby threatens the mother's life). And if it is rape, then it's understandable that they would get an abortion, but they could get it born and put it up for adoption, the same thing for children with a disorder, and if they dislike their life then let them commit suicide (Although I think that's wrong too...) but you shouldn't decide to end a fetus's life when they have no choice in it. I think it's really dumb for people just to get an abortion because they don't want to waste their money or time, so adoption would be a good solution

...So you'd rather have kids committing suicide than simply keep abortion legal?

XD That wasn't the point I was trying to make. What I meant was that abortion gives the fetus no choice at all, and that suicide gives the child a choice and that that is what they want. Would I want people to commit suicide? No. I think that they should get help first, but if they want to die, then that's a choice they made. I find it no more right than abortion, but it does give them a choice which abortion does not.

That is absolutely perverse reasoning.

Can't we just have both?
Leaglise Adortion and Suicide.Throw in uthinasia aswell.I support that.
Just make everything so you have to have the counciling and support.

Have clinical abortions so it's done as safly as possible.

Give Suicides the propper infomation to kill themselves painlessly/cleanly but also offer better solutions to their problems.

Let their be asssited suicide for those who clearly want to die but can't do it b themselves.Agan this would be coupled with counciling and other legal do hickeys.

(I've just woken up so forgive any speling/evilness about m post)