(posted this idea in the ch.46 thread, then thought it deserved its own post)

It has been surmised, ever since we found out that the thing Ed and Al created was not their mother and did not become Sloth, that there is no link between what they did and how homonculi are made. This is not necessarily true. It's possible that there /is/ a link, but a very different one from the one in the anime. X3

Case in point: Lust said that homonculi are artificial humans "created" with a Philosopher's Stone at their core to sustain them. As anyone who's read this far knows, in the manga Ed and Al did /not/ actually create Trisha. The body that Ed and Pinako dug up years later had black hair and was ostensibly male from the remains of the pelvic bone.

Now let's think over what their plan was. They had all the ingredients for an adult human body, and they dripped their own blood into it and assumed that it would create their mother's body, into which they could then bind her soul. No such binding of souls took place, and the body they made was a dark-haired male. An artificial human body. And all the homonculi are dark-haired (except for Gluttony of course).

I think that, in their attempt to create a human body, Ed and Al stumbled unknowingly upon part of the secret to making a homonculus instead. Their incomplete homonculus did not survive because A) they didn't really know what they were doing, and B} they had no Philosopher's Stone to use as a core.

Interesting theory. However, I was under the impression from the Anime that Ed and Al created Sloth when they tried to reserect there dead mother. I supose I need to get further in the manga

Maybe you are right... that sounds like sth along Arakawa-style tread xD

right, but we also saw roy kill Lust by destroying her "heart' so does that mean that he actually destroied a philosophers stone? this actually raises FURTHER questions for me.. because all Homunculi can regenerate and Lan Fan can Sense all of them but Bradly... so maybe the others are made from "red stones" and Bradly from a Philosophers Stone.... either that or maybe only ONE extremly powerful person was used to make bradly o.O;;; just thoughts

That makes a lot of sense that what Edo and Al made could have been a Homunculus instead of their mother. Afterall, they were using Hohenheim's books and equations for a reference. And I'm sure everyone can guess what he has to do with the whole thing...

Also, didn't Roy take the "nucleus" out of Lust before killing her at a later time? Since she lost her nucleus she can no longer regenerate endlessly and so lost all her lives and succumbed to death. Unless she had more inside her... but I can't really remember. And Bradley, I always thought that he was made to be a Homunculus that aged and the closest thing next to a human in order to hide his identity and to be able to exist alongside with humans to lead military operations under "father's" orders. So logically speaking, maybe that's why Ran Fan couldn't sense him?

She didn't lose her nucleus- although it was a little hard to see in the drawing, Roy pulls the philosophers stone stone out of her chest and her body decomposes, but then just as he's about to use it, she starts forming around the stone (thus able to get the jump on him and stab him).

No, Sloth was only showed for a little. But it's some huge guy when they were killing greed. They said something like "where's sloth" "oh, he's back there working hard like always" Sloth was only their mother in the anime.

You know, the Homunculus creation theory for the manga is really interesting.

Anyway, that poses another question involving Ed and Al's creation.

They used the elements that made up the human body. So, one would suspect that they used the proper proportions and amounts in the average adult body. But a couple of things come to mind that they might have made a mistake in:

1. The first is most apparent. They both used several drops of blood to act as a base for the transmutation to go off of. That makes sense because while red blood cells only contain hemoglobin, which is used to transport oxygen throughout the body, there are several cells in the blood (don't know WHAT cells... bight be several skin cells from the cut) that would contain the DNA that they needed. Now one nucleoside (one piece of DNA) is made up of glucose (4 carbon atoms, one oxygen), a phosphodiester bond (a phosphorus atom connecting one glucose to the next), and a Nitrogenous base (Nitrogen, but in varing composition). An average human has noly 46 chromosomes, which are composed of twisted up DNA, and all 46 are housed in the nucleus of each cell in the human body (with the exception of several cell types of course).

Now on to my first theory. Since both Al and Ed added several drops of blood so that the transmutation would have DNA to go off of, they might have sabotaged the transmutation. The 'Law of Equivelent Exchange' states that something of equal value must be presented in order to create something else; so you can't create something from nothing or nothing from something. Since both Ed and Al added drops of their blood, they may have put too much ingredients into the mix. The excess of ingredients, even an iota, could have nasty reprocutions in alchemy. So that could be one reason why the transmutation failed.



2. My other theory pertains to all the cases of Human Transmutation... well, in the anime anyway; not sure for the manga.

Anywho, in each of the cases in the anime, the creators all tried to create a body before anything else so that they would be able to affix the spirit and soul later on. But I think there is something wrong with that theory. Seperately, each of the components that make a human (Body, Spirit, and Soul/Mind) will die the moment they are created.

Body, the physical manifestation of spirit and mind/soul, is sustained and able to be alive because of the spirit and the mind/soul is what makes the human who and what they are. Without a body, the person is esentially a ghost; a soul that substitutes a body with spirit.

Spirit is the life force, chi, ki, or whatever you wish to call it. It is the essesnce that enables the body to become animate. Without spirit, the body can't live.

Mind/Soul is the consciousness, subconsciousness, unconsiousness, and so on. It is the individual person that makes no too people the same. Without it, a human is essentially a vegetable or a robot (remember Glottony at the end of the series?).

Each of the components directly effects eachother. Mind/Soul is the center of the person. The mind recalls the body shape and look even after death, so the spirit remains with those who are tied to the world and the Mind/Soul shapes the spirit to the form the body had. The spirit animates the body, the body acts as an anchor for the spirit and Soul, and so on.

Now, back to the theory. Ok, they all attempted human transmutation starting with the body. Now, that doesn't work because if they create a body It would die the moment it was created because there is no ghost (Spirit + Soul) to go with it. Now, and and Al were close; they fixed a spirit into the body, but it soon died because... well, we all know that.



Sorry for the long post. ;; But it does make sense to everyone, right?

Thank you Guest, your right. In the Manga, sloth is shown as a huge, muscular man digging into a stone wall ( or something like that), wrath is Bradley instead of Ed and Al's sensei's failed attempt to resurect her child, and as of right now, I have no idea who Pride is in the manga. My mistake. I had forgotten about the diff between the Anime and Manga. But my point was that, if Ed and Al's actions did not create Bradley's secritary (Sloth in the Anime) that looks just like there mother, than how did she come about? And what about Wrath (from the Anime) as well? It seems to me still that some how, when human transmutations are attempted, a humonculi is some how created as a result of the action, though I'm not sure how. I must see + read more of the series before I can come up with a substantial theory. Any body else have any more ideas?

It seems to me still that some how, when human transmutations are attempted, a humonculi is some how created as a result of the action

That's exactly how they're created, but only in the anime.

thats the whole point this ISN'T the anime... there were a few Human Transmutation attempts WAY before Ed, Al, and Izumi's so did thsoe attempts become Homunculi too? i mean i'm sure there are tons of attempts that ARN'T shown. i think its something more special then just attempted human transmutation

You may want to refer to the FMA one-shot manga by Arakawa-sensei called "Blind Alchemist". The alchemist in the one-shot tried to transmute the daughter of a family he served and lost his eyes. He was tricked into thinking that he succeeded because the family adopts an orhpan who looks similar to the dead girl and replaces her. In the end of the one-shot the adopted girl shows Al (Edo and Al went to go ask him about human transmutation) what the "blind alchemist" really transmutated and she says that it never speaks or moves so no one knows if she was really brought back or just an empty body. The "thing" he transmuted has a human shape but is devoid of any thought and just sits in a chair. My guess is that it has a body, mind to sustain the body but no soul so therefore it is not really her but just a shell.

Now, my point is, can you really call that a Homunculus? By definition Homunculi are artificially made humans but FMA's Homunculus are more than that. They also have special abilities and are able to regenerate so long as they have their nucleus(red stone). But what makes a human (in FMA) human? A body with a mind to house the essense of human life, the soul. I may be mixing up the anime and manga now but if I'm not correct, Homunculus have no soul (hence the difference in "ki" sensed by Ran Fan). If the Homunculus have no souls than logically they cannot think and act right? Well, the Homunculus are shown to have thought and at times act on their own. I believe this has to do with either their nucleus(red stone similar to the Philosopher's Stone) or perhaps their soul comes from their "father". Apparently the 7 sin Homunculi are made with a part of "father". In Greed's death scene "father" told him he would have to become a part of him again since he would not follow his orders and then drank him when he submerged him in some tank and he came out as a liquad. The fact that the Homunculi have a "father" could be why they are different from other products of human transmutation (as in the example above). But since everything surrounding "father" is a mystery, we can't be certain why the 7 sin Homunculi are different until more is revealed.

Trying to separate the anime from manga is really giving me a headache

Interesting point about failing to transmute all parts of the human. By the sound of things Izumi only tried the body - perhaps the soul.
Ed and Al tried the soul and body, though they didnt try to recover the mind, mind you this probably doesnt matter as nothing can bring back the dead, this is part of Ed's true knowledge.

Yes I think your right. I think that the creation of a Homunculus goes much deeper than just beeing the product of human transmutation. In the manga, when Greed is devored by his "Father", It almost seems to me that the 7 homunculi where perhaps elements of this so called "Father's" soul, that some how make the Homunculi what they are/ give them a mind instead of lifeless shells. I'm probably way off the mark, but it seems to me that if human transmutations resulted in the creation of homunculi than like Kyo_Umerio stated, there would probably be a boat load of homunculi wandering around, and not just the 7 sins... but I just thought of something. perhaps the difference between the succesful creation of homunculi and all the uncecessful human transmutations is that in the case of the 7 sins, there where philo's stones involved, but then again, that doesn't really make sense either. Perhaps the "Creator" punishes those who attempt human trans. buy making there loved ones return to the earth as soulless beings? .....This is getting pretty far fetched, so i'll stop now... I really don't know what i'm talking about.

k i know i'm comin' in this topic really late and all, but i really did read all of the posts and (hopefully ") understood all of them ;
i just had a thought (which is prolly really stupid though " but i guess i need someone to proove me wrong) well if Humenculi are by definition "fake" humans just havin' body and mind but not soul, lust, gluttony and all of them must be particularly special, because they're the seven sins right ? i mean why would they be the seven sins ? they can be special homenculi with the "red stones" but why would they be the seven sins too ? i guess it's just something i'm not getting, but then, "Father" would be a kind of "god" ?
and also btw i don't see who r avarice, sloth and pride... ?

(k this post was prolly stupid but i guess i just need help to get it " lol ^^")

One easy and simplest answer: Father just decided to name them as Sins after deciding to build seven at the beginning.

More complex answer: Father might have shared his 'soul' with them - see Greed's death. He might have found a way to distill his 'sins' from his whole soul and gave these sinful soul pieces to the Sins.

Hmfgdfg! What a surprise I did not know that, Thanks for the info however.

yeah i guess the second answer is prolly the closest to the truth ; cuz it's not just like they're named like that, i mean i think they really are a personnification of the sin... anyway thanxs for the answer guest ^^

Is it possible, that a homunculi is created only when a philosopher's stone is made? Maybe the egg came with the chicken.

It's being hinted at that cities are becoming giant transmutation circles. Could this have any ties to the Ishbalan massacre? I'm not sure about the manga, but does Scar recognize Lust as his brothers dead Ishbalan lover in the manga also? Maybe Scar's brother was tricked into making a philosopher's stone similar to what has happened to Ed in his past dealings with the homunculus. He may have thought he was getting his lover back, but was instead tricked into making a homunculus/philosopher's stone.

Maybe Ed and Al's transmutation didn't work because they never truly sacrificed a soul and/or didn't have a philosopher's stone. The philosopher's stone has to be created using human lives, but maybe it requires only the souls to do so. This would lead me to believe, a philosopher's stone conatining human souls, could be the equivalant exchange, while the rest of the ingredients were all correct. Ed pulled Al's soul back, which would have ended up being the trade off to complete the transmutation since they didn't have a philosopher's stone.

I confused myself, so no more deep thought for me.

Very interesting theory... Yeah, and furthermore, they mention something like "the homunculus theory" when they're studyin' on their own... So, yeah, most probably it was a failed homunculus.

Altho' notice it seems it did not survive because it rejected Al's soul.


Aha, notice that Lust did regenerate from the Stone. So I say that when you build a human body around the stone, that is, an homunculus, you actually are binding somehow the stone to the homunculus, so the stone becomes it. That is, as the manga shows, you can't take the core out of an homunculus because the core IS the homunculus. Do I make sense?

And, Edo-mame, Lust did regenerate after Roy took out the stone from her: she regenerated completely once, none less, at that moment, and many times later when Roy kept killing and killing her till she "ran out of lives" (hey, just like a videogame ).

And, as for Bradley, he's just "homunculus state-of-the-art hi-tech", even Greed was completely amazed that "something" like him could exist, so you could say we still don't know about Wrath's secrets.

Dunno, as I see it that blood part, was something more "mystical" and not DNA-related. You know, in exchange for Trisha's soul, they gave their "soul", their "blood" which contained Trisha's. Or something like that.

I've recently re-read all the manga, and have come up with some pretty crack pot ideas, but here we go: (For give me I don't know how to use spoiler tags)












First, all homoculus can turn into some form of monster. This is apparent in chapter 49, but can also be seen in Volume 8 2nd chapter pg. 20. On this page greed taunts envy and says, " Yes show me your true form monster Envy."
Also in this chapter (actually pg 21), Father is seen reading a book with the same alchemy symbol that is on the Xeres Ruins (chapter 41 pg 27) and is also the same symbol that the military of Armestis is making with their invading countries. Xeres was probably destroied to make a philosiper's stone, so Why would Fater be trying to do this again.

Second, Homoculus cannot be discussed without Father, so here is some more theories. Father is some alchemist (probably Hoem.) who wants to play the role of god. At the begining of the series Ed always preached that alchemists are not gods, and that is probably going to be of some importance later. Also The town of Lior at the beginging was praying to the Sun God, and there were 5 suns on the alchemy symbol at Xeres.

Finally, There's a lot of talk about Hoem. being pride, but when he gets shot in chaper 46 (I think) there are no alchemy light squiggles, blood, or anything else the homoculus have. HOem. is something bigger than the homoculuus.

That's all I have for now, sorry about the long post.

Well, you're half right about Hoenheim not being a homunculus, but he is Pride. In Judeo-Christian Mythology there are 7 sins (duh, we all know that) But the Sin of Pride is special because it is supposed to be the Sin which all others are born from. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Pride made the 6 homunculi, did he not. OH, and heres a lil' diagram to show how Pride births the other sins.

Lust: You = Prideful (your endowments) --> You decided to put it to use (repeat) = Lust

Wrath: You = Prideful --> Someone disses you --> You're angry and want revenge = Wrath

Gluttony: You = Prideful (your stomach capacity) --> You eat (repeat) = Gluttony

Sloth: You = Prideful (lieing ability) --> Lie about injury/sickness --> get out of work (repeat) = Sloth

Envy: You = Prideful (your possessions) --> Someone has better stuff than you = Envy

Greed: You = Prideful (your possessions) --> Want more (repeat) --> Greed

As for all the 'Encircled Pentagon/Pentagram' (can go either way), isn't that Circle for the Philosopher's Stone? And why would Pride be trying to make another one? Well, think back to Dante. She was trying to make Philosopher Stones to sustain her psuedo-eternal life. It's probably the same deal with Pride

[[Well, you're half right about Hoenheim not being a homunculus, but he is Pride. In Judeo-Christian Mythology there are 7 sins (duh, we all know that) But the Sin of Pride is special because it is supposed to be the Sin which all others are born from. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Pride made the 6 homunculi, did he not. OH, and heres a lil' diagram to show how Pride births the other sins.

Lust: You = Prideful (your endowments) --> You decided to put it to use (repeat) = Lust

Wrath: You = Prideful --> Someone disses you --> You're angry and want revenge = Wrath

Gluttony: You = Prideful (your stomach capacity) --> You eat (repeat) = Gluttony

Sloth: You = Prideful (lieing ability) --> Lie about injury/sickness --> get out of work (repeat) = Sloth

Envy: You = Prideful (your possessions) --> Someone has better stuff than you = Envy

Greed: You = Prideful (your possessions) --> Want more (repeat) --> Greed

As for all the 'Encircled Pentagon/Pentagram' (can go either way), isn't that Circle for the Philosopher's Stone? And why would Pride be trying to make another one? Well, think back to Dante. She was trying to make Philosopher Stones to sustain her psuedo-eternal life. It's probably the same deal with Pride]]

Sorry, I wasn't logged in ;;

You're right about all sins being derived from pride, but Hohenheim can't be Pride-they look nothing alike.

Really now? Look closely. They both have the same 'scruffy chin-strap' beards. Both PRide and Hoenheim have long hair but, if you look, Hoenheim Ties his har back in a ponytail, but Pride leaves his hair down (You know, lounging around and all). If you want to delve deeper, look at their chins, noses, and foreheads.

Oh, and lets not forget the fact that Hoenheim was not effected in the least when he was shot all those times.

No no no no no, shamanmedium. Just no.

According to your descriptions, when you say "Pride", you are talking about Father. Who, as we know, is NOT Pride (Pride told Wrath he wouldn't report his treason to Father).
Stop saying Father is Pride. He isn't.

Now, that Father and Hohenheim are the same person, is another thing. They might very well be the same person. But not Pride.

Of course, there's also the possibility that Hohenheim is Pride, but then he is not the person who created the Homunculi. I doubt it though, because when Hohen was shot, he didn't die and returned to life like the other Homunculi do, but instead just took the bullets and nothing more.

Let's get some things right first. One nucleotide is composed of :
1. a pentose sugar: deoxyribose (which has five carbons, and BTW glucose has 6 not 4),
2. a nitrogenous base (that is a molecule containing nitrogen, and is attached to the first carbon, can be A, T, C, or G), and
3. a phosphate group (which undergoes condensation reaction to join to adjacent nucleotides).

To go with the theory, the reason for the failure of the transmutation on a molecular level, would not be just because there was "too much ingredients". To go from a pile of ingredients to a human, many reactions will need to take place to form the biological molecules, includinging the DNA. The base sequence of the DNA had to be templated from somewhere (unless they wrote her whole sequence on the transmutation circle, which is just almost impossible). If it is as shamanmedium said, the Elric brothers had a few of their skin cells drop into the mix, and the DNA of the their transmutation subject was to be based on that, the being will have 96 chromosomes (double of a normal human). That means obviously it won't be a normal person. Even if, for some mysterious reason, the transmuted being had only 46 chromosomes, it will not be the same as the original Trisha, as the each child has one half of their DNA from their mother (When a gamete, AKA a sex cell, is produced, it only contains half the DNA of its owner.), and it cannot be ensured that the both of them combined had exactly one whole copy between them (almost impossible). To boot, because the Elric brothers are both male, they will carry the sex chromosomes of XY, instead of XX (which is for females), and this might account for why the transmute being was a male.

Well, let me put my ***hole hat on for sec and just say, "I'm not trying to pretend I'm a genetist, but I have taken a course in genetics so I sorta understand the basics". Not trying to start anything, just saying.

Anyway, Shiro, thanks for the corrections and what said makes a lot of sense. I didn't even think of some of that stuff.

And Zink, chill alright? These are just my theories. I could be wrong, just like anyone else on this forum.

I don't mind you stating your theories, ridiculous as they may be. What upsets me is that you stated them as solid, undebateable facts.

Well, I don't think Zink was using bad manners nor flaming you nor whatsoever.

And he was right. No theories about it: Wrath and Pride talk, and they talk about Father, they mention him. From another POV, the Homunculi know Pride and Father, and they call 'em differently. The homunculi respect Father and call him so, why would they start calling him 'Pride' randomly from time to time? That just makes no sense.

Plus, the official chronology from PG Book 2 says:

Prehistory:
---- (other facts)
---- Father creates Pride
---- Father creates Lust
etc.

Advice: Reread the manga and get thine points straight.

~ Soul And Body?, What EXACTLY are they? ~

Don't know if this has been discussed before, but then I am too lazy to go back and check XD My thoughts are still rather unorganized and all over the place, so sorry if I confused you ^^;

As we allll know, Ed dragged Al's soul from Al's body to outside the gate and affixed Al's soul onto an armour. Al's soul was able to think and link back to the past because his "mind", links his soul and his body, where his memories are stored.

Al's body was able to "respond" to Ed that Al can't leave the gate with Ed, because Ed is not his soul.

Barry the chopper's soul and body were separated outside the gate, and then a rat (I think? or an animal... I forgot if he specified that it was a rat or not, but okay, an animal)'s soul was affixed to his body while his soul was affixed to an armour. In that case, is the "mind" still keeping Barry's soul and body linked? I don't really see the mind "link" between Barry's soul and his body, other than the fact that they recognize (and try to kill) each other... Clearly Barry's body can't do logical things because it's now occupied by an animal's soul... So is Barry's soul and body still connected by their mind? Or was it only purely their instinct that they recognize and want to kill each other?

Now back to Al. Al's body was able to clearly speak out that "You are not my soul. I can't leave with you." It sounds logical, right? Barry's body never said anything as clear and logical like that. Then if by any chance, if Al's body did somehow got pulled out of the gate by someone else and got affixed an animal's soul on him, would he still be able to make himself "logical"? Or what if at the waaaaay beginning, Ed managed to pull out Al's BODY instead of his SOUL, would Al's body able to survive outside the gate, by connecting to his soul inside the gate? Can Al's body still refuse other souls from "invading" his body because it's not his real soul? Or can he live outside the gate just normally, without his soul (ie, just to eat, walk, sleep.... basic things)? Would Al's body be like a mindless puppet and do whatever others tell him to do, or would he be able to link back to the soul and make logical thinkings? Would he even have any emotions like feeling happy and feeling sad?.......

*headaches and dies* Opinions, anyone?

@_@ Somehow things seem to be reallllyyy confusing after gate!Al's body managed to say that "You are not my soul. I can't leave with you."... maybe I am just thinking too much? XD;;

Hmmm... slightly confizzled as to the question (well, maybe not confizzled, so much as I've had a long day and didn't feel like trying to comprehend what's really going on... Sorry... ^^ but, for now, here's a quick clear-up:

Go to the manga viewer and read chapter 44: The Nameless Grave. That's Ed's entire discussion and thesis regarding mind, soul, and spirit.
The basic idea is that the spirit serves as an invisible connector between mind (or, arguably, body) and soul. (Rather than mind, body, and soul)

Ed's theory is that while Al's soul is in the armor, the spirit serves as a connector between the world and the gate. Ed then talks about his and Al's spirits "crossing," and so that may be why Ed has to sleep a lot, eat a lot, etc. - he has to take care of Al's body, too, to keep it from decaying like Barry's - so, here's my theory:

When Barry's soul was transferred to the armor, there was no one to care for the body via the spirit like Ed does for Al's body... But, Barry is still able to "sense" his body b/c of the connection that the soul and the body both have, despite the body housing a different soul... So that's why Barry could recognize his body - but his body wasn't able to respond to him b/c the mind was "overshadowed" by the soul of the rat (or whatever that thing was...)... So, Barry can sense his body, but he nor any one else can directly "communicate" with it b/c the body has the soul and mind of a rat, and the spirit connection between Barry's soul and body was weakened. Make sense?

As far as Al's body goes, his mind is there, still functioning and storing memories like Ed said it was... but, Al is still able to think for himself... Think of it this way: The "essence" of Al, if you will, is stored inside the soul, and the mind stores "raw data" - kind of like a computer drive. Al's spirit connects the two (mind and soul), thereby allowing him to both look up and store information in his mind even though it is seperate from him... More of a philosophical thing than a scientific, physical one, but you know... Does that make any sense? I can explain it more, if you'd like...

But I don't think that Al's body would be able to host a different soul and still remain "Al" - remember the computer drive allusion? Al's body is acting as if it is a computer - using information it already has, but devoid of Al's personality - the mind is almost like a seperate entity, and only by the soul being housed in the body, and connected by the spirit, can the two work harmoniously together to create an "entire" Al. So, arguably, if you put another soul inside Al's body, Al's body would take on the mental characteristics of whatever soul the body was storing... It's also possible, like with any foreign soul housing anything, that it could be rejected - but there's no telling what makes something more likely to be rejected or not... I think, though, that Al's pretty safe in the armor b/c there's no "original" soul to try and make him leave... If another soul sought refuge in Al's body, it may have a harder time trying to stay, if Al (his soul) was strong-willed enough... But no, not quite entirely like a mind-less puppet - more robotic, in a way - just going through the motions, and reacting to things based on the information and memories that it has. It wouldn't really be "Al" though - it couldn't feel in necessarily the same way that Al does, kind-hearted and caring, without the soul...

Al's body said that to Ed b/c, like a computer, it recognized something foreign, and gave out an "error message" - actually, I think a computer is the best way to think about a soul-less body, don't you?

Hopefully this all made sense! If not, I can keep going over it! ^^

Quick rap-up:

Soul-less body = computer (has info, but no distinct personality)
The Soul = what makes a person unique, rather than an info-storing device

-The New FMA

@ The New Fullmetal Alchemist:

What about when Ed and Al tried transmuting their mother? Ed said in one of the chapters (too lazy to check) that you can only take out of the door what was already in it. They couldn't take out their mother's soul because it didn't exist, meaning that the thing they made didn't have a soul. However, Al recalls that for a minute, he was the "thing" before his soul was rejected from the body. The "thing" didn't have an original soul in the first place. This means that Al's armour body still has the chance of rejecting his soul.

Thought I'd clear that up a bit, sorry if I don't make sense ^^

There's a another thing I've been meaning ask about the body and soul too. In Chapter 33, Fuu-jisan said when he fought Al, he couldn't feel the flow of ki/chi inside Al's body that all living human being should possess. But when Lan Fan fought Envy, he asked him just how many people are inside of him. Ling and Lan Fan said they can sense the unusual ki/chi that the non-human based homunculi possess. How is it possible that they sense Envy's abnormal ki/chi since they were all souls but they couldnt sense Al's ki/chi? Does the soul have ki/chi?

Hmm, not exactly what I was talking about...

and note that I wasn't looking for an "explanation" of whatever that's already been mentioned and explained in manga =\ Of course I know whatever that was already explained by Ed in chapter 44, so I didn't need another explanation from that chapter, really (and I hate mange viewer...)

what I am looking for are more like view points and opinion. What Ed said is what he thinks. Maybe it's not reallllyyy exactly like that... Chapter 53 only confirmed his "mind connects the soul and body" theory, but what I want is a even more detailed explanation of soul and body (so yea, from what everybody here thinks, don't quote explanations from the manga anymore please since it's pointless.) Note that what I said up there are like, what I think, not really fully accordingly to what manga has explained. The computer analogy is interesting, but well... imo it doesn't sound "right" to me (I don't mean that you are wrong... just that the processor in my head doesn't really accept it. XD) My major question is asking how people think Al's body would function OUTSIDE the gate while remain CONNECTED to the soul INSIDE the gate... while what you said are mostly how Al's body would be like if it's DISCONNECTED from the soul... which isn't really what I am asking for.

Al's soul was able to function outside the gate, BECAUSE the soul is still connected to the body that is inside the gate. Would Al's body be able to function outside the gate as well if it's connected to the soul that is located inside the gate? <--- My real question. I think my starting post is too messy or something... maybe I should clean it up...... but then I am so damn lazy.




Hmm, good point... the philosopher's stone is really essentially just a concentration of countless souls, as Envy has clarified for Ed... But then to what I know about ki/chi (I might be wrong), it's not really sensing the soul itself, but sensing the energy that flows inside one's flesh body.

I guess you could say that, Ling and Ranfun were able to sense the FLOW OF ENERGY inside Envy. In order to use his power, Envy has to convert the concentrated souls into a usable form of energy inside him... and perhaps that energy is actually what Ling and Ranfun were able to sense? Since there are many different souls in the stone, so therefore there are many different forms of energy inside Envy, in which lead Ling and Ranfun thinking that there are many of them inside Envy...?

Argh, but then now it doesn't make sense in King Bradley's case, since Ling and Ranfun were only able to sense him as an "individual", not a bunch of people... maybe because he is human-based humunculus so he converts energy differently? >>;;
I don't think I recall Wrath ever got attacked by anyone... maybe that energy can only be sensed when the homunculi regenerate themselves? Or maybe Wrath is so l33t that he never actually needed to use the stone's power except for his eye... Argh, I don't know anymore XDDDDDDD

So Al doesn't have any ki/chi because he has no flesh? You need flesh to convert the energy and uhhhhh........ maybe that evergy conversion happens inside the gate @ gate!Al's body? XDDDDD *gets shot in the head for making all these even more confusing than before*

Boo-haa... Abstract concepts, them's difficult to deal with.

Me I only wanna point out a couple of things:

That is a very good summary. I agree with you.

Well, by making a quick check on readmanga, in that version (altho' it's EvilGenius' ) Fu says "that armor doesn't have the usual "flow of ki" a living person should have".

That is, maybe Al has a ki/an energy/whatsoever, just not that of a regular human body, of course. And that same kind of ki might be detectable on hommunculi.

Or then again, maybe it's a mistake.

Nope, this has already been explained in the manga: Bradley only has one soul remaining. All the other ones got used up in the "battle for the 12th Führer Candidate" when he got the stone in him.

@ AA Battery -

Your first post -




You *were* asking questions, and, in response, I *did* give some of my own opinions...


@ Sensenic (and ExhileVoid)- I agree (more or less) about what you said regarding Al vs. Envy - perhaps ki/chi has a lot to do with the physical body... Whereas w/ Envy, those souls are trapped inside of him - they can't go back to the gate... They're probaly "calling out" or some such as they were when [spoiler]Ed was in Gluttony's stomach w/ Envy[/spoiler]. Maybe that's why they could be sensed so easily - it was a physical body w/ an un-natural flow of ki/chi courtesy of the souls Envy has stored within him...

@ baKa-neKoh - That was Ed's *original* theory - in chapter... Uh... 47? 46? Somewhere around there (also too lazy to check! ) He told Al and Winry about his *new* theory that he formulated regarding the soul based on [spoiler]digging up the failed transmutation's body and asking Izumi about her child[/spoiler]

Now what Ed's saying (which, from a philosophical rather than scientific stand-point makes a lot more sense) is that when the body dies, soul and spirit pass into the gate - permanently. The body is dead, and the soul has *naturally* moved on - thus, re-referencing how the circle and flow of nature and life can't be broken. In Al's case, his body was *taken,* not *killed* - I think that Al's body is safer (ie won't reject as quickly) as armor b/c it is and always has been inanimate - no soul ever occupied it. While that could be bad in that the armor is unused to having a soul, I think that, considering how the seal is an "anchoring point" rather than an "infuser," Al is quite safe for the time being... As for him being inside the thing that he and Ed brought back, that might have been a trick on the Gate's part, or, perhaps, it was his soul trying to come back to Earth, but had no body to go to... Either is possible, and maybe we'll find out, maybe we won't...

*lights a lighter and burns self*
*explodes like batteries*

oh well =_= my head is screwed up. I blame lab reports *gets shot in the head*
Any other thoughts about "what if the body is outside and connected to the soul inside?"

(@the new FMA - Yes I did ask a question at the beginning, but then my thoughts were all messed up, and your post didn't really answer what I was kinda looking for... so i got frustrated. sorry about that. )

@ AA Batter - it's alright. I had my own theories scattered around w/ the facts - maybe it's the classes I'm taking where the teacher's always yelling at us to "support our theories," but I always include facts to go with what I say. ^^ what sort of answer were you looking for, then?


Is this more of a theoretical question, then? B/c if it is, I don't think it's necessarily possible -

After all, when someone dies, their soul goes into the Gate - but we bury (that word looks wrong, even though I know it's right...) the body. Unless the soul was "taken" like Al's body was... then, who knows? I guess the body could function if the soul was "taken" by the Gate but not "consumed" yet... and by consume I mean that the soul isn't a part of the Gate yet - it still has the possiblity to leave... It's so hard to come up w/ good words when trying to describe how the Gate works!

That reminds me of something else. Remember Ed and Al first performed human transmutation and Al's soul was stripped from his body and put into their creation but rejected Al's soul? Why didn't Izumi or Jude the Blind Alchemist lose their soul when they attempted to resserect someone since we already know it is impossible to recreate someone who's dead because their soul no longer exists so a soul so has to come from somewhere.

Well, the Gate didn't take Ed's soul - just parts of his body. And the other two were more experienced - didn't Mustang say at one point that the damage done to the bros. could have been worse? If Ed was by himself, who knows what would've happened - maybe he would have been fine, and maybe what happened to Al was the result of some part of the transmutation they hadn't known about? More questions that we may never know the answer to... BTW, who is "Jude the Blind Alchemist?" I've heard that before - wasn't he from a gaiden or something?

Yes, he is from a gaiden.

summary: [spoiler]Ed hear rumours about Jude and went to visit him. Rumours that he successfully performed a human transmutation. He actually didn't* do it successfully... he was trying to resurrect his master's daughter who died from a disease I believe, but instead he lost his eyes. The master's family decided to lie to him and tell him that "Yes, our daughter is back, thank you"... (so that his sacrifice is not wasted...) and had a girl from orphanage to pretend to be the daughter. So yea, pretty much all you need to know for is that he tried human transmutation, failed, and lost his eyes. .....Izumi lost some of her organs (specifically the ones needed for sexual reproduction). Ed lost his leg. Al lost his whole self @_@. [/spoiler] I feel so bad for Al ><;

I think if Ed were to perform the human trans. himself, he would lose the whole self to the gate, like what happened to Al....

Ah! Thanks AA Battery for the info on Jude! Do you happen to remember which book that gaiden was in? *is curious* if you can't remember, no big! Thanks again!

The Gate is so fickle, though - it's impossible to say for sure what would happen/wouldn't happen... Ooooh... I just got the irony with Jude... damn, that's just mean...

It's in the first perfect guidebook.

Someone has recently post a link to the MSN group thingie for that gaiden, in the Hagaren Omake thread (I am pretty sure it's within the last 30 posts) so you can go check it out there. ^^



As for that... I am going to assume that both Izumi and Jude's theory for human transmutation weren't as "perfect" (well we know that it's not perfect, but you'll see what I mean) as Ed & Al's... Perhaps Izumi and Jude's theory only had enough for the "body", not the soul, which is why they didn't lose their soul? Ed & Al's, perhaps, despite being kids, might have actually written a theory that's close enough to a real human being... close enough to actually consume Al's soul into the gate?

But then again I am probably not even making any sense XD tehehe *gets bricked by lab reports*

^ Perhaps... I'm sure we'll know more as the story goes on, though...

Thanks for the info about the gaidens, AA!

Selim Bradley is Pride. Father is not. Father was once known as Homunculus and resembled what is in the gate(the black stuff with smiles and eyes). He gained his human form by tricking the King of Xerxes into helping him sacrifice everyone in Xerxes without the king's knowing. The king thought he would get imortality instead Homunculus did. As he created the seven homunculi he became known by them as father. This is found out in chapters 70-75.

This thread is from 2005, we all know this now.

im aware that this thread is old i really what just looking for somewhere to answer a question

Hmm, I think I can ask this question here instead of making a whole new topic (if not please tell me where I can ). I think I missed this in the manga, because it is not my mother-language and it just is a lot to remember, but are all the homunculi made the way like King Bradley and Lin Yao were made? I mean, using a normal living human being, letting a (philosopher)stone attaching in the body so it becomes a homunculus? Of are some homunculi totally created by father? I mean, king bradley already existed before he became a homunculus, but is that also the case with Pride and the other guys?
I mean, we saw how Gluttony was a weird mini creature after being destroyed (that's not really the right word, I know). So I wonder, who already existed and who didn't
Can somebody please tell me

And about this theory, it sounded pretty interesting to me. I started asking myself this question:
Isn't it a little bit odd that Ed and All created something using Hohenheims books, and created something that, if what the topicstarter says is true, looks like a homunculi, and that Ed and Al need a philosopher stone to get their old body's back? I noticed this link: the maybe created a (failed) homunculi, and because of that, they need the philosopher stone, and a homunculi is also living because of the philosopher stone. Would there be a link?

I read the part where popogeejo wrote 'we all know this know' but I don't really know it yet xD. I don't know wether that's because I missed it or because I just read FMA till volume 16.

I was also wondering, why are there just seven homunculi? I know there are seven deadly sins and not eight, but father made two Greeds. I mean he used two body's to make Greed, maybe he can't make two because there is just one 'Greed personality and stuff' if you know what I mean
But if not, why wouldn't he make more Greeds

I really have this feeling all the answers are in the manga, but that I just missed them or that it's all being explained in volume 17 of 18 xD
If there is this general topic I can ask this questions, can someby please tell me

Thank you~ :3

I believe I can answer most of your questions. 1.)All of the homunculi in the manga except Wrath and the second Greed were created by forming a body around a philosopher's stone with elements of the human body. (I'm not sure about Sloth. I've read he was created by Father, but that wouldn't make since because of Ed and Al's bodies.) 2.)Wrath was the only homunculus who was a human turned into a homunculus by injecting a philosopher's stone into his body. 3.)Father didn't make two Greeds. He kept the original Greed's philosopher stone and put it into Ling's bloodstream. Ling allowed the Greed in the stone to take over his body. Ling's soul is in Ling's body, but Greed controls it.