in the anime, hoenheim told Al that if they want to regain back their bodies, they have to give back what they gained. what did they gain? sloth? so if sloth is what they gained, does that mean if they 'kill' sloth al will get his body back?
and was ed's leg taken b/c of human transmutation or because he saw the truth. in the manga it seemed like it was because he saw the truth. but i know the anime and manga are different.
sorry if there's already a discussion like this... XD

I've often wondered this too. I'm guessing that Al's body + Ed's leg = Transmutation cost and seeing the gate. While Eds arm = getting Al's soul back so he could affix it to that suit of armor.

But since Equivalent trade is such a complex thing, who knows.

about something to get Al's body back, we'll find out in the next episodes..

They have the fucking Philosphers Stone. They should be able to do it without returning Sloth to the otherside of the gate. -___-

yes, they have the stone. but what to do with it? since al IS the p.stone, can Ed risks it to use the p.stone such easily? what if al will disappear if ed makes a mistake? he lost his brother just once, i dont think he wants that to happen again...

Very complex, 'cuz how on earth does an arm equal (affixing) a soul (to armor)?

Well, I don't think the anime and manga differ that much from the topic of Human Transmutation. Only that in the anime, when you perform Human Transmutation you get a Homonculus.

I'd say the whol eordeal cost an arm and a leg!


.... that was bad.



Anyway, I'd say the body for the transmutation, the leg for the truth, and the arm for a soul.

OK... but Al saw the truth, too. So shouldn't that be a body for truth, as well?

Homunculus

A homunculi is a 12 inch tall false human created through the means of alchemy. Paracelsus claimed to have created one to do work for him, but the creature soon turned on Paracelsus and ran away. The following is the method he described to have used to create the homunculi.

Ingredients:
1 bag of bones
sperm
skin and hair from the animal you want to mix it with

Directions:
1. Lay the ingredients on the ground.
2. Surround the ingredients with horse manure for forty days.
3. Through the theory of spontaneous generation, you should now have your homunculi.

Er, don’t try this at home ^^;; It does not work. This is just background information from the ‘real’ world. I highly doubt that the homunculus from FMA was created by this... method. And incase you’re confused; homunculus is the plural form of homunculi.
Furthermore, an interesting fact about Paracelus was that is full birth name was actually Auroleus Phillipus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim. Assuming you discover that the last part of his name sounds quite familiar, remember the Elric brothers' father was called Hohenheim? Interesting that he did create homunculi as well...

that is what Serpents-Cross says the method for making a homunculus is XD

Thanks guest for details on Homuculus.
But, I think your reply is kind of out of subject.

I get the fact that his soul is in the armor, but why does the armor get to break equivalent trade laws pre-PhilsopherStoneization. I think the armor is the worst use of equivalent trade. It doesn't need food or water (energy) yet it can move. That is something from nothing. Yet he still gets tired? How does he talk? He has no lungs. How are sound waves created from nothing. How does he think? He has no brain. That means that he is infinte energy. Something from nothing or 1/0. Now that he has the Philosopher's Stone it makes even less sense that he can break equivalent trade laws because he already does break them.

Hey, cirle.
I see your point, and your idea is right with out any more discussion.

But, This is anime, science does not apply all the time.
And, that is also beauty of anime.

I cannot answer any of your question because Al's existence is one of many flaws in the FMA. But for the last one, I think I can add some of my idea. Eric brothers also believe that the Philosopher's stone has power to do any thing. At ep 44, we know from the conversation b/t Al and Hoenheim that the philosopher's stone cannot do everything.

Philosopher's stone is not a tool that can break the equivalent trade laws. I think it is merely tool that can help Alchemists to perform a high level alchemy like Human alchemy with out failure. I think it is more like a tool that has a power to go over "Energy barrier" in Chemical equation in order to start chemical reaction.

In real life chemistry, if chemist does not apply enough energy to some chemical substance, they do not react well or does not start a reaction because it does not have enough energy to go over "Energy Barrier" . Even the reaction started with out enough energy, it will not give chemists satisfiable products( simply, it will never give 100% results).

I think this idea apply in FMA alot. Eric brothers prepared enough reactants to make a human being, but they failed, and they made a monster, which is not a satisfiable product.
I think animators applied this simple chemical concepts and fantasy fiction to create FMA and alchemy world.

The idea of Equivalence is also one of basic chemistry idea. And, I think Equivalent trade law in FMA was also based on this simple chemical theory. It also applied in FMA, and that is why if Eric brothers reverse alchemy and somehow use Sloth(products) to regain reactants, which is their leg and body, they can regain Al's body and Ed's leg.

Cirle, what do you think about my idea???

okay.. in the world of chemistry.. there are only 2 laws of conservation:
conservations of enthalpy and entropy
enthalpy is energy, while entropy is the degree of "randomness"/"chaos"
however, in non-nuclear chemistry, conservation of mass is also applied. it says: the mass of reactants equals the mass of products.
i think this is the only law that is used in the anime, since both energy and randomness was not conserved at all..
but, some things in the anime do not have mass.. like knowledge and soul. but these things can be classified as a jolt of electricity and reactions in a human's brain... theoritically.
then again, this is alchemy and not chemistry, so what i'm saying might be completely irrelevant.

hm... i kinda like the idea of philosopher's stone as the extra energy to overcome the barrier... for a reaction to happen, the particles need to collide with enough energy to form a new particle.... or they're going to bounce off and nothing's gonna happen.

another point i'm making: not all chemical reactions are reversible. example: Sodium (Na) is a metal and Chloride (Cl) is a gas... they come together, given enough energy to overcome the energy barrier, and you'll get table salt.... this reaction is not reversible, since the properties of the new compound are very different from the reactants.
maybe Hohenheim was saying that Al and Ed may never get to reverse the process... he was putting them down a lil.

i think i've been studying too much... this is an anime anyways.

Psst... Other way around

another intresting thing about hoenhiem's (real life) homonculus, when people wanted to see it he claimed it had gone rogue on him and had run away

Good stuff.

Al dosen't get tired, dosent eat and I think he dosen't age (mentaly). His voice hasn't changed, even tho years has passed since he was trasmuted to the armor. The fact that he has unlimited energy is because of the trasmution circle inside of him. The Equivalent Trade was made like this in my opinion....

You will get your soul back, but you wont be able to do what human souls do (feelings, cry and other things that makes a human soul a human soul) surely he must have affectionate feelings for Ed, but i think that he does not do that because he feels them but because he remembers that he had them when he was human.

This might be all nonsense but brings me back to the episode when Al leaves Ed because he has implanted memories.

Except Al is also easy to kill. (Well before the philosophers stone incident) All you had to do was break the blood seal inside his armor.

Never having to eat and never getting tired may seem like pros but it can be cons also. Never being able to taste the foods you loved. Never able to experience the joys of going to sleep to forget about your problems momentarily. It's all how you look at it.

well, but remember, when Al fell into the water, the blood seal didn't disappear, and Al says 'maybe it's because the philosopher's stone is inside me', so I guess it will be harder to kill Al now, and about Paracelsus' homunculi, is it possible that actually he didn't created it and make a story that it ran away? are there anyone that saw it?

In an earlier episode Ed kicks Al into water when they're having another training match, right after Ed gets his metal hand and leg actually, I think. Bit of a loophole there.

Yeah that kind of confused me too

Probably because Edward didn't think of the blood seal thing coming off in water until later on (as a kind of after-thought)

If you rewatch the episode, you can see that Al doesn't go under the water. After the initial splash clears, Al is on his side and only his shoulder is submerged.

meh.. really need to review all the episodes..

but there's still the possibility that it could've gotten wet when he splashed, right? XD speaking of water. When Ed and Al went back to the island, Ed said "Oh yea, i can't swim either." But when he was chasing Psiren down, he was in the canal [or whatever it's called] and he swam fine, right? unless i'm not remembering correctly. XD

I just watched that part again. He gets pulled under water and uses the alchemy to create a giant hand which catches Psiren. He tries to swim back up but he struggles and seems unable to. Then it fades to black and when it fades back he's with the police and Psiren (in handcuffs) So... I don't know what happened O_o

Ed could transmute a surf board. =D
Ooh, there's an idea.

Actually, Ed sunk. ^___^;; He couldn't get out, you can see him trying to swim back up to the surface, but it isn't really working. One of those policemen rescued him? Or he climbed up via the sides of the canal? Well, you can see him being out of breath so he must have been doing something to get him out of there (before someone helped him out?). Not to mention he'd been there for a while, too. Ah well...



It sure is! ..but what would he use for materials? His arm?

As for the blood seal, what about the massive, massive quantities of rain the two Elric brothers are constantly subjected to? The armor isn't watertight, as Bradley so willingly demonstrated with Martel.

Exactly. When they were fighting Scar for the first time and Scar put a hole through Al's armor I thought "why worry about Scar, isn't the rain more of a threat now??"

Oh well, such is the advantage of an animated character.

It is anime.
We do not count everyday natural things.

Still, it's kind of like one big plothole, isn't it? Especially what with the latest episode (44) where Al makes a big show of being able to swim.

Poor Ed gets upped by his little brother once again! He still can't swim. T__T

Wouldn't it be more along the line of the armor/auto-mail making them to heavy to be able to swim properly rather than the blood seal dissapearing?
Blood is a pain to remove from clothing unless it's done quickly so I can't really belive that a little rain would be a threath for a seal that has been in place for years.
It would just mean that the Philosophers Stone is a lighter material than what the armor was made of from the beginning.

Please excuse any inane spelling, English isn't my first language
/Tofenheimer

I love Ed's constant comparison of himself to Al.

Advanced alchemy
Older brother
State qualified


Advanced alchemy
Tall
Can swim
Has philosopher's stone

etc.

Now, about equal trade...

I think this is the case with Ed, since his automail limbs are (in fact) really heavy. It even stunts his growth! But Al is only a suit of armor. He's hollow inside, he could've floated in the water without probs if the blood seal wasn't there.

OK, floated would be a bit over-exaggerated, but you know what I mean. ^__^;;

On the contratry his armor isn't, as has been stated, waterproof. Trying to swim would have filled it with water and thus sinking him. Now less water can enter the armor simply because there's a huge chunk of philosophers stone where there used to be room for water.

Good point. I admit defeat.

Haha, Nice one

plotholes. gotta love poking at them. XD

sry if anyone already have said this... i was kinda tired when i read them... :S
but wouldn't Al be stronger than Ed (in alchemy) since ed lost his leg for seeing the truth right?? and al lost his entire body but didn't remember the truth or something like that and since al had to sacrifice more... maybe he got to see "more" of the truth (if it is possible) and then he would be more powerful...

correct me if i'm wrong... just a thought... (not only mine if you think i'm stupid :S)

It comes into play later.

In that Al does begin to remember what he's seen beyond the gate, and learns to transmute without a sigil.

We do not know yet.
In manga, Al is stronger at this point.
But in anime, Al is not so different.

Even Al has P. stone within him, he does not know how to use it!!
Ed worries that if Al uses or Ed uses P.stone, it might destroy Al.