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Stained_Wings
with the philosophers stone alchemists can create humans and souls, right? so why doesn't Ed kill whoever is needed to make the stone, and then revive them when it's made? that way, in the end, no one is really lost. i'm sorry if this is a stupid question, it just popped into my head a sec ago. and if the answer's a spoiler, WARN ME. i don't wanna spoil it for myself sad.gif
Greensky
The stone isn't magical. Even with it, there's no telling what will happen to you if you attempt human transmutation. I've seen the Japanese episodes, and all I can say without spoiling anything is that human transmutation has never been succesfully done, and it never will be.
AlphonseRules
Well wouldn't the stones power just run out when he brought those humans back. If he killed 10 people to create a stone and then brought them back to life, that would be equivalent exchange.
Obcessed Mechanic
What would he use to bring them back? You're completely forgeting the law of Equivelent Exchange. In order to bring them back, he would have to kill the number that was killed. And as he said, he cannot kill anyone, he can't bring himself to do it.
TheVileOne
QUOTE(Greensky @ Apr 10 2005, 08:21 PM)
The stone isn't magical. Even with it, there's no telling what will happen to you if you attempt human transmutation. I've seen the Japanese episodes, and all I can say without spoiling anything is that human transmutation has never been succesfully done, and it never will be.
[snapback]150041[/snapback]



Though except when Tucker performed human transmutation on his daughter to make her a chimera. Or does that not count?

Here's the deal, you can't bring back what is dead, something that is not in this world. That is why the stone cannot bring people back to life.

Remember what Ed said?

"There's probably nothing in this world that can bring Mom back."
Steel Alchemist
Edward did make that statement.. so I have to go with what TheVileOne said.
BrokenAngel
**** SPOILER ****






I think another reason is because you can't bring back a soul. You can create an artifical one, like Al thought he was and what Tucker wanted to do. Ed was only able to bring back Al's body because it was still on the other side of the gate and because of the four years of hard work paying off as the equivilant trade
ymsg
But didn't Ed say that the stone surpassed the law of Equivalent Exchange?

Oh, but you need to kill to make the stone and the stone to revive the dead... sheesh, Equivalent Exchange is really the world's one and only truth, isn't it?
Guest
QUOTE(TheVileOne @ Apr 10 2005, 03:26 PM)
Though except when Tucker performed human transmutation on his daughter to make her a chimera.  Or does that not count?
[snapback]150153[/snapback]



Human transmutation is bringing back a human from death, not turning a human into a Chimera, which is obviously very possible. Damn that Sewing-Life Alchemist~! tongue.gif
Greensky
I have to learn to log in before posting...
AA battery
the stone has limitations =\ really... if it really is as simple as "ohh just use the stone to revive those that died!" then... why would they have to make NEW stones? right?
terroja
SPOILERS:

Think about this logically: in order to bring back Ed, Al had to use THE ENTIRE philosopher's stone. Powerful as it may be, it's not capable of restoring the lives it took. That doesn't seem like an equivalent exchange to me, but the principle of equivalent exchange works in less obvious ways when one is dealing with abstract notions such as the human soul.

Also, I'd like to point out that, at the end of the series when Edward restores Alphonse (and if that's not a human transmutation, what is it?) he doesn't use the philosopher's stone at all.
xrninja
QUOTE(Stained_Wings @ Apr 10 2005, 06:52 AM)
with the philosophers stone alchemists can create humans and souls, right? so why doesn't Ed kill whoever is needed to make the stone, and then revive them when it's made? that way, in the end, no one is really lost.
[snapback]149842[/snapback]


sort of SPOILERY ahead. not totally, though.

souls aren't exactly something you can create. the stone doesn't work like the dragonballs do, where you can just bring someone back to life. you can't bring the dead back to life.

it also doesn't really follow equivalent exchange in that you cannot kill 10 people, use those 10 people to make a stone, and then bring back 10 people. that's far too simple; there's a reason the stone is so rare. and when it comes down to it, ed won't kill people to bring back his loved ones. he's a human being with an active conscience.

sorry i couldn't be more specific, i didn't want it to be really spoilery.
Guest
QUOTE(ymsg @ Apr 19 2005, 01:48 PM)
But didn't Ed say that the stone surpassed the law of Equivalent Exchange?

Oh, but you need to kill to make the stone and the stone to revive the dead... sheesh, Equivalent Exchange is really the world's one and only truth, isn't it?
[snapback]156331[/snapback]



[spoiler] To some degree ya, but it isn't the world's truth. And to bring back a soul, it has to be right after one dies. Their mom's transmutation was a failure since they waited a long time to bring her back. She had already gone to the other side of the Gate. Al was able to come back both times b/c Ed acted immediately after he died, before he could enter the Gate into our world [/spoiler]
kyb
QUOTE(Guest @ Apr 22 2005, 06:27 AM)
QUOTE(ymsg @ Apr 19 2005, 01:48 PM)
But didn't Ed say that the stone surpassed the law of Equivalent Exchange?

Oh, but you need to kill to make the stone and the stone to revive the dead... sheesh, Equivalent Exchange is really the world's one and only truth, isn't it?
[snapback]156331[/snapback]



[spoiler] To some degree ya, but it isn't the world's truth. And to bring back a soul, it has to be right after one dies. Their mom's transmutation was a failure since they waited a long time to bring her back. She had already gone to the other side of the Gate. Al was able to come back both times b/c Ed acted immediately after he died, before he could enter the Gate into our world [/spoiler]
[snapback]158418[/snapback]


[spoiler]then if ed knew he can bring al by infusing his soul into an armor or something why didn't he do that with his mother then he would have a chance to bring her back.Also lust already said she wanted to be human meaning the philsopher's stone can bring back souls from the gate[/spoiler]
Guest
QUOTE(kyb @ Apr 24 2005, 01:26 PM)
QUOTE(Guest @ Apr 22 2005, 06:27 AM)
QUOTE(ymsg @ Apr 19 2005, 01:48 PM)
But didn't Ed say that the stone surpassed the law of Equivalent Exchange?

Oh, but you need to kill to make the stone and the stone to revive the dead... sheesh, Equivalent Exchange is really the world's one and only truth, isn't it?
[snapback]156331[/snapback]



[spoiler] To some degree ya, but it isn't the world's truth. And to bring back a soul, it has to be right after one dies. Their mom's transmutation was a failure since they waited a long time to bring her back. She had already gone to the other side of the Gate. Al was able to come back both times b/c Ed acted immediately after he died, before he could enter the Gate into our world [/spoiler]
[snapback]158418[/snapback]


[spoiler]then if ed knew he can bring al by infusing his soul into an armor or something why didn't he do that with his mother then he would have a chance to bring her back.Also lust already said she wanted to be human meaning the philsopher's stone can bring back souls from the gate[/spoiler]
[snapback]160049[/snapback]



[spoiler]
One: Ed didn't know of the stone or much about alchemy at the time. Neither did Al. That's why they went to Izumi-san to learn from her.
Two: Lust doesn't know if it can. Besides she was munipulated when she was found by Dante to believe the stone can make her human. We see that w/ sloth. She sees visions of Ed and Al, but doesn't understand:
Sloth: what was that? There were children...two of them...they were happy, but yet sad.
Dante: When you are human you will understand
Anyway, Dante only wanted the stone so that she can transfer her soul into another body...which is possible since Ed's dad and Dante both did it for 400 years [/spoiler]

BIG SPOILER, but the only way I could explain
Guest
Here's the answer without spoiling anything:
You cannot create a soul(stone or no stone). Think of a regular human as a mind, body and soul. Homunculi are mind and body - no soul. Human transmutation can only transmute mind and body, nothing can transmute a soul(though souls can be moved/binded to other things, like Al's to the armor).
Steel Alchemist
uhhhhhhhh sure i will go witj that.
MasterKris
[SPOILER]Here is the thing, Ed didn't sacrafice the stone and the four years of hard work to bring back Al. He only sacraficed the hard work. Al brought back Ed with the Philosopher's Stone and Al was gone since the stone is gone. Ed says he would be able to bring back Al because his body, soul, and mind is still inside the gate. When Al comes back to life, he doesn't remember the four years of hard work to find the Philosopher's Stone. The Stone holds unlimited power, but it cannot bring a soul back because it is gone already. I just thought of something, if Nina was a human transmution, then shouldn't she be a Homonculus??[/SPOILER]
Guest
QUOTE(MasterKris @ Apr 28 2005, 01:12 PM)
[SPOILER]Here is the thing, Ed didn't sacrafice the stone and the four years of hard work to bring back Al. He only sacraficed the hard work. Al brought back Ed with the Philosopher's Stone and Al was gone since the stone is gone. Ed says he would be able to bring back Al because his body, soul, and mind is still inside the gate. When Al comes back to life, he doesn't remember the four years of hard work to find the Philosopher's Stone. The Stone holds unlimited power, but it cannot bring a soul back because it is gone already. I just thought of something, if Nina was a human transmution, then shouldn't she be a Homonculus??[/SPOILER]
[snapback]162432[/snapback]




[spoiler] she isn't a human transmutation. She's just a corspe w/o a soul or mind, she can not move or think. But tucker is almost at his breaking point. He has gone so insane he thinks Nina can be brought back. Even after his failed attempt, he thought she was back. HE made a body...but didn't attempt the transmutation until Al becomes the stone...even then he failed to make her even a homunculus....she continued to be a corspe. Proving the concept of what the other guest said: You can't create a soul w/ the stone. Nina was long gone be the time he attempted to bring her back. [/spoiler]
LunarMoon
[snapback]150041[/snapback]

[/quote]
Spoiler





Though except when Tucker performed human transmutation on his daughter to make her a chimera. Or does that not count?
[snapback]150153[/snapback]

[/quote]
Could you PLEASE mark your spoilers. This is the dub board so most of the people here haven't seen past episode 24.
eliss_music
You all are failing to mentcion the long process of creating the Stone, which is still debated today. Sorry but fma created a differnt version for their story. human transmutaion has been recorded but not "proven" by scientific means. Also it is recorded that Homunculus do/did exist and your very close on your theorys about souls. A soul is, by early alchemy, A gift or life energy from God. Man can not create what God has, thus souls are a no go. Also you can bring a soul back after a long time but one must astrolly project themselfs to "the other side of the gate" (also known as the Astro plane.) to retrive them and bring them back. they can get stuck if they are not strong enough. Now the actual recipe for the stone doesn't require humans at all but it is sopost to make it stronger. Nicolas Flamel sucessfuly created a stone and used it to make Elixer for both him and his wife. It's said they are still alive today! Now one other thing is the dead wish to remain that way and it is more Necromancy then Alchemy to bring them back. I study Alchemy, so if I seem rude or offensive, please for give me! I do love the way they show the psycological effect of Alcemy on the people in FMA, Either way it is a wonderfully writtin and resurched story. The circles are a twinge off (They need alchemic symbols for a formul and/or a physical expirament to work.) but I won' t spoil your fun anymore! Enjoy!

Contact me if you have any questions!
barry_the_butcher
*SPOILER*





I'm sorry to ruin all of your dreams or anything but there is no equivalent exchange or law of conservation. All of the energy that is supplied for alchemy comes from death on our side of the gate. Ed figures this out from his father in episodes 50 and 51. Also, the Philosopher's Stone is not perfect and it still has a bit of 'equivalent exchange'. When Al was used as the Philosopher's Stone by Tucker, a little piece of his side disappeared and when he brought Ed back from the other side of the gate, he disappeared completely and was found later in the body of a 10-year-old boy. So there is no Law of Conservation or equivalent exchange. What human life is worth a radio? And besides, there is nothing that can replace a human soul. This is why Nina, Trisha, and the Homunculi are incomplete. Lust and Sloth wanted to become human but that would never happen because the soul of the original human transmutation is lost. Lust was a result of Scar's brother's dead girlfriend that he tried to bring back. I think, according to how thye showed all of the blood from the failed transmutation, Scar's brother probably lost everything in his crotch. >.< That would totally suck, male or female. Trisha was created because of Ed and Al's failed transmutation of their mother. They both wanted to become human, but since the souls of Trisha and Scar's girlfriend were already on the other side of the gate, they could not successfully be brought back.

A human transmutation is possible if you do it soon enough.
There is no equivalent exchange or law of conservation.
Even the Philosopher's Stone cannot bring people back without a price.

Also Ed and Al were finally able to do something along the lines of human transmutation because of the 4 years of hard work they put into studying alchemy to find the answer.

One more thing: Where did you find books to study Alchemy? I live in a small crappy town in which the only book on Alchemy has been ripped down the spine and taped back together by a certain boy I know... (stupid Josh)
ymsg
Okay, Barry, not that that wasn't amazing and informative, cause it was, but PLEASE put it in a spoiler box!

[] spoiler, and then end with [/] spoiler.

[spoiler] I am just now beginning to understand the gate. This is where the human soul goes after death, and is trapped there, right?[/spoiler]

Anyway. there are alchemy books just about everywhere; surf Ebay, or google search. That's where I get all my alchemic props.
dragonmaster2476
he just can't do that if he did he would be in big time trouble.
ymsg
What are you talking about?
Sacred Wolf
Hey, he probably doesn't want whoever (his mom if he did) to feel guilty or anything about what he and Al did. I mean then the other person would be unhappy in this whole obnoxious cycle of guilt.
eliss_music
i found the books at my loacal liberary. i had to put most on request but i have found a nice veritity. there are laws for alchemy, just as any science and there is equivilent exchange. i know this because the radio incedent in the first episode...al had all the broken pieces thus it could be fixed. the exchange isnt nessisarily human, but if one wanted to make a metal vase one should find something like metal pieces to transmute. its realy simple but the task is the hard part. on must concentrate solely on what one wants to make. changing a thought during the prosess messes it all up. i found a recipe on how to make the philiosiphers stone, but it is in pictures. one must disipher the last picture (the last step befor it is compleat) to actuly try to make it. oh and by the way, again, equal value is not human for radio but if "you want to gold, you must start with lead." so if one wants to make a human, give a human. (warning: this is now an illegal prosess! do not atempt!). also, seeing as i have no money, i just used my liberary system to find materials and trust me not all of them are what i was searching for. (stupid occult student handbook.) ok, so i have to travel to the nearest city to get the books but i go in every saturday anyway. my point is: equvilent exchange works. making lead to gold : still dificult. also not interested in gold, but the stone its self! i know a potentail formula! it's called the Mutus Liber. ok, so i cant prove it's the full formula but its the last step that has stumped so many! and no, for now anyway, i wont try to create it. i will admit my skill is still far too young to even try anything small much less the stone. and i wont wither away trying to make it either. i do have other intrests. ok, i have wrote for far too long! good night or day!
ymsg
Of course. ^.^ Equivalent exchange surrounds everything we do, I guess. To get a burger at McDonalds, we have to give money. To speak, we must hear in response. Everything is equivalent exchange.
Guest
QUOTE(ymsg @ May 19 2005, 01:02 PM)
Okay, Barry, not that that wasn't amazing and informative, cause it was, but PLEASE put it in a spoiler box!

[] spoiler, and then end with [/] spoiler.

[spoiler] I am just now beginning to understand the gate. This is where the human soul goes after death, and is trapped there, right?[/spoiler]

Anyway. there are alchemy books just about everywhere; surf Ebay, or google search. That's where I get all my alchemic props.
[snapback]175401[/snapback]


[spoiler] not always... Ed and his dad both went into our world...so did envy. So Maybe they don't stay in there, but go into our world, since Envy isn't an alchemist [/spoiler]
ymsg
But that doesn't make any sense to me. [spoiler] Our world? And Envy and Hoenhiem... I don't understand that. What is the gate, exactly, and how is it seperate?[/spoiler]
eliss_music
QUOTE
But that doesn't make any sense to me. [spoiler] Our world? And Envy and Hohenhiem... I don't understand that. What is the gate, exactly, and how is it seperate?[/spoiler]


ok, the gate is to wiccans (and pegans) of our world the vail between the world we live in and the next. the second "world" is where all magic comes from and the souls of the dead travle there after earth. ever wonder about the scary storys on halloween? its the day this vail is closest to earth (to us pegans anyway.) but about the gate:
in order to pull a soul from the other side of this gate or doorway one must put something(someone?) back in its place, i.e. another soul maybe. (not too sure how that would work.)

ymsg is correct on how equivilent exchange works. thus you always hear nothing is free. now, if all of something never leaves (and has no soul, i.e. inanimate objects) then it can be fixed as long as it is not moved. humans are harder however. (i have no clue if this is the show, but i'll box it just in case.)

[spoiler] in order to get the exact soul of a person, the alchemist preforming must go to the other side of the gate and retrive the soul. but nothing is free. i belive another soul has to be givin in its place. however....its been said that the alchemist him/her self must be givin because they can never leave after they retrive the desired soul. thus is problem : alchemist cant finish if hes dead. also, no one but the alchemist can get the soul i belive. [/spoiler]

point : too great a risk for too greedy a price. thus it hasnt worked in real or fma.

ok, if you have any more questions on this stuff i'd be glad to answer!:)

oh and on envy/ hohenhiem:
[spoiler] hohenhiem and dante had a son who died of mercury poisining and they tryed to bring him back but failed thus equaling envy. dante is the one who 'saved' the failed human transmutaions now called homunculus. [/spoiler]

bye now!
ymsg
Thanks, Eliss, for clearing that up for me.
chocolate_eds_everywhere
ohhhhhh that makes alot o sense now thanks biggrin.gif
Guest
[font=Arial][size=4]Spoiler. That you already probably know. But still....I warned you.











My 2 cents. When anyone dies, they move on. So they don't want to come back. So the person still alive trys to bring them back and makes a new living being. This being has a mind full of memories that aren't it's own. The Hom-whatever-spelling. So they are all F-ed up in their head and think they have no soul. They have a new life. They aren't what they were. They are new. And they have a soul just for living. But it is new. And if they die, they are gone forever.

Al and Ed came back because they weren't happily dead. Their souls didn't resist. The stone gave one the temporary knowledge to open the gate and grab what he needed but taking him as a backfire cause the gate was open. And then the other had the knowledge already. And used it to grab the other. See? So simple.
Ladymercury
QUOTE(Stained_Wings @ Apr 10 2005, 10:52 AM) [snapback]149842[/snapback]

with the philosophers stone alchemists can create humans and souls, right? so why doesn't Ed kill whoever is needed to make the stone, and then revive them when it's made? that way, in the end, no one is really lost. i'm sorry if this is a stupid question, it just popped into my head a sec ago. and if the answer's a spoiler, WARN ME. i don't wanna spoil it for myself sad.gif



I fight the urge to say this but:

Maybe because FMA isn't Dragonball Z?


... someone shoot me and return to your normal discussion.
ed's numbuh 1 fan
QUOTE(eliss_music @ May 20 2005, 11:58 PM) [snapback]176529[/snapback]

QUOTE
But that doesn't make any sense to me. [spoiler] Our world? And Envy and Hohenhiem... I don't understand that. What is the gate, exactly, and how is it seperate?[/spoiler]


[spoiler] in order to get the exact soul of a person, the alchemist preforming must go to the other side of the gate and retrive the soul. but nothing is free. i belive another soul has to be givin in its place. however....its been said that the alchemist him/her self must be givin because they can never leave after they retrive the desired soul. thus is problem : alchemist cant finish if hes dead. also, no one but the alchemist can get the soul i belive. [/spoiler]



[spoiler] and that is sorta what Edo had to do at the end of the seris and movie to get Aru-kuns body back you could say smile.gif [/spoiler]
blackrider76
QUOTE(terroja @ Apr 21 2005, 10:52 PM) [snapback]158307[/snapback]

SPOILERS:

Think about this logically: in order to bring back Ed, Al had to use THE ENTIRE philosopher's stone. Powerful as it may be, it's not capable of restoring the lives it took. That doesn't seem like an equivalent exchange to me, but the principle of equivalent exchange works in less obvious ways when one is dealing with abstract notions such as the human soul.

Also, I'd like to point out that, at the end of the series when Edward restores Alphonse (and if that's not a human transmutation, what is it?) he doesn't use the philosopher's stone at all.


QUOTE(ymsg @ May 20 2005, 06:59 AM) [snapback]175911[/snapback]

Of course. ^.^ Equivalent exchange surrounds everything we do, I guess. To get a burger at McDonalds, we have to give money. To speak, we must hear in response. Everything is equivalent exchange.


It is explained that [SPOILER]There is no such thing as the Law Of Conservatation, in other words, there isnt any "equivalent exchange"
both Dante and Honenheim say that. Ed also says that even if the law of equivalent exchange isnt real, he wants to believe its real, because he doesnt want to know that his efforts arent always rewarded. Dante (even though shes insane, and she might be speaking out of her craziness, explains how not everythign is equal, like how hundreds work to become a state alchemist, they all put in the same amount of effort, but in reality, only a few actually pass, and she also takes rose's baby, and expalains how even though the baby works hard to stay alive, it can be easily killed, while some people live happily with everything from birth to death. Or maybe that was a crazy notion made by Honenheim and Dante, though i agree. Think about it, some people have carefree lives, some people have hard lives from the beginning. is that fair? Some people kill, and they dont get killed themselves. Some people protect others, and they get killed. it isnt fair, and that is because the world isnt fair.[/SPOILER]
ed's numbuh 1 fan
[spoiler] ALSO Armony said in her letter at the end of the 1st game: The law of Equivalent exchange may apply to the order of the world, but not people. Somtimes we can sacrifice all we want and never gain. While somthings require no sacrifice at all" or somthing like that smile.gif [/spoiler]
Tombow
I kind of think in a Universal scale, equivalency works.
That, if we look at an Universe as a whole, there is a finite number of elements, and the combination of these elements makes stuff, like trees, humans and other living things, and metals and other non-living stuff.
As Izumi might say, we are all part of it, and when humans die the elements will go back to the soli, air, etc., and norish other living things, or become part of other non-living stuff, like tree becomes dead, then dead tree might become coal or oil, and other stuff after a long period of time.
To have something created, the needed elements have to come from something-else in the Universe, and I think we can safely say that is an equivalant exchange at work.
The trouble starts when we try to apply the equivalancy to our everyday situations, because, as you know, life doesn't always work that way. It would be nice if life is all fair and square, but it doesn't seem to work that way. rolleyes.gif
blackrider76
im surprised at this though: ed never realized the world isnt equal earlier.

Also tombrow, almolst all alchemy applies except for soul and human transmutation.
An arm isnt worth a soul.
even if you have all the ingredients you usually cant create a human
Tombow
I agree. As long as alchemy is staying within deconstracting and reconstracting of elements, equivalancy holds, and hence it does not conflict with my post above, although I was talking about the law of more universal scale.
[spoiler]Including the part about the other world's play in alchemy, but I don't go into that here.[/spoiler]
And, again, trouble starts when people start applying alchemy in a way directly invlovling human lives, or any "lives". "Soul" is NOT simply some stuff made up of elements, and cannot deconstruct/reconstruct with alchemy, nor can we expect the equivalancy to work.
Snake-Alchemist
The law of equivilant exchange is a very real law, but some things have different tolls and rewards, for instance, if you study in a library or work out in a gym, you are gaining knowledge and strength in exchange for TIME. some people would call this unequivilant, but if you think about it, time is one of the most precious assets in the world. When a young person dies, that person and that persons loved ones wish they had more time with them, or wish they could turn back time to do something different. But some forms of equivilance, like in al's case, take there toll in life itself. But perhaps the key to bringing a soul back isn't retrieving it, but it returning to your side of the "vail" because it wants to come back, but you have to have its body waiting or it cannot transcend. Of course i beleive that the best thing to do is LEAVE THE DEAD DEAD. For all we know human transmutations fail because the soul that is being cahnnelled doesent want to return, after all, who would want to return from heavon?
niagra flame
QUOTE(Stained_Wings @ Apr 10 2005, 08:37 AM) [snapback]149842[/snapback]

with the philosophers stone alchemists can create humans and souls, right? so why doesn't Ed kill whoever is needed to make the stone, and then revive them when it's made? that way, in the end, no one is really lost. i'm sorry if this is a stupid question, it just popped into my head a sec ago. and if the answer's a spoiler, WARN ME. i don't wanna spoil it for myself sad.gif

well there is 1 thing a philosophers is to be created with live humans ed knows he would never risk a life or take a life so they are findin a way to forge 1 without sacrifices ed is harsh but wen it comes to a innocent life he wont kill for greed he is like that hope thats wat you wanted to know

QUOTE(eliss_music @ May 20 2005, 10:43 PM) [snapback]176529[/snapback]

QUOTE
But that doesn't make any sense to me. [spoiler] Our world? And Envy and Hohenhiem... I don't understand that. What is the gate, exactly, and how is it seperate?[/spoiler]


ok, the gate is to wiccans (and pegans) of our world the vail between the world we live in and the next. the second "world" is where all magic comes from and the souls of the dead travle there after earth. ever wonder about the scary storys on halloween? its the day this vail is closest to earth (to us pegans anyway.) but about the gate:
in order to pull a soul from the other side of this gate or doorway one must put something(someone?) back in its place, i.e. another soul maybe. (not too sure how that would work.)

ymsg is correct on how equivilent exchange works. thus you always hear nothing is free. now, if all of something never leaves (and has no soul, i.e. inanimate objects) then it can be fixed as long as it is not moved. humans are harder however. (i have no clue if this is the show, but i'll box it just in case.)

[spoiler] in order to get the exact soul of a person, the alchemist preforming must go to the other side of the gate and retrive the soul. but nothing is free. i belive another soul has to be givin in its place. however....its been said that the alchemist him/her self must be givin because they can never leave after they retrive the desired soul. thus is problem : alchemist cant finish if hes dead. also, no one but the alchemist can get the soul i belive. [/spoiler]

point : too great a risk for too greedy a price. thus it hasnt worked in real or fma.

ok, if you have any more questions on this stuff i'd be glad to answer!:)

oh and on envy/ hohenhiem:
[spoiler] hohenhiem and dante had a son who died of mercury poisining and they tryed to bring him back but failed thus equaling envy. dante is the one who 'saved' the failed human transmutaions now called homunculus. [/spoiler]

bye now!

i agree wat you said about the gate equivalant ezchange is a real thing in fma doin wat they do and like they do is impossible but the rules of alchemy are quite realwe use them almost every day without knowingthat is the saying "to obtain something of equal value must be lost"keep up the good work rolleyes.gif
Ektor
The energy needed to create the stone reqires that a city be destroyed and Ed doesn't think that killing others can justify his own reasons to bring back Al's body
Nega FMA
Yep and Ed's not letting Scar do it either. So unless he can find a different means of getting Al's body back then there whole journy thus far have been in vein. Im also wondering how Ed will be capable of getting his own arm and leg back from Wrath? He can't just simply make a gate appear and rip them off of him. I also can't see how he'd be able to work those limbs even if he sewed them back on. Alchemy can't make dead limbs work on a human body. The reason they work on Wrath is because they've grown on him in the gate.

sweety_pie
Ed doesn't want to use the stone to bring back those that dued for the same reason he doesn't want to try and bring back his mother anymore.He's afraid of what will happen if the human transmutation doesn't work again.
HalfAsian Alchemist
I'm sorry if this has already been said, but it's kinda obvious. The Philosopher's Stone isn't above Equivelent Exchange. I haven't even seen the entire series, but from what I have seen, and read, I can definately say nothing is above Equivelent Exchange. When you use the Stone, part of it is used up, which is equivelent to what you are transmuting. Thus, no one can make a Stone, use it for the purposes they wished to use it for, then bring back everyone killed to make the Stone, as there wouldn't be enough material left to complete al the transmutations. The Stone is just a way to provide an added boast to an alchemist's power, not make him/her above Equivlent Exchange.
frozen-air alchemist
you have a point.[attachmentid=6560]

QUOTE(terroja @ Apr 22 2005, 01:52 AM) [snapback]158307[/snapback]

SPOILERS:

Think about this logically: in order to bring back Ed, Al had to use THE ENTIRE philosopher's stone. Powerful as it may be, it's not capable of restoring the lives it took. That doesn't seem like an equivalent exchange to me, but the principle of equivalent exchange works in less obvious ways when one is dealing with abstract notions such as the human soul.

Also, I'd like to point out that, at the end of the series when Edward restores Alphonse (and if that's not a human transmutation, what is it?) he doesn't use the philosopher's stone at all.

ya that and that when al came back he had no memories. so bringing them back would make them wonder who they are, how they got there , etc.
Popogeejo
What does that image have to do with anything?
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