<Editing the thread title, and adding "and other analogies to FMA story, Post your FMA analogies here!! ^^" to expand the discussion scope of this thread. ^^ 04/16/07 ~Tombow>


ETA: April 16, 2007 by Tombow
First, what I'd like to point out and remind everyone, is that we don't really know what Arakawa had in mind when she wrote FMA, and Ishivarans in the FMA (as far as FMA manga goes, she is still writing the story, but we also know, from the Interviews she gave, that she already has the ending of FMA manga, and pretty much known that from the beginning of FMA.)

Having said that, FMA is a very interesting story, and we can draw many analogies to the situations we know/learned personally, be it Palestine situation, European colonialism, the history of Indian natives in the U.S., or the Japanese-Americans in the concentration camps during WWII, and so on, and I'd like to expand this thread as a thread where we can post such analogies to FMA story.



<Thanks Hilde Knight, for opening this thread!! I know you have been MIA from our board sometime, but.. hope you don't mind us expanding the scope of your thread to include more wider discussions. ^^ 04/16/07 ~Tombow>
=========================================
<The following is Hilde Knight's original post. ^^>


As you can guess, there is a great possibility for spoliers here. Beware.

War is a current issue that is plaguing our newspapers and televisions, and it also plays a big role in Fullmetal Alchemist.

Watching FMA the first time through, I noticed some similarities between the war that is taking place in Iraq right now and the attacks on Ishbal. Most of the things I noticed at first were petty and vague such as things like skin color (that probably sounded incredibley racist). Obviously, things that are, as I said earlier, petty and generally insignificant.

However, after watching through it a second time, I was able to take notice of more things that struck me as similiar. An example of this would be that, in a way, the head priest of Lior could be compared to Saddam.

What really struck all this, though, had to be in episode 14 with the men in the same building as Roze and the children she was looking after. I believe Roze said something along the lines of "We don't need your help, we have our own legs," which I feel to be very comparable to what we are doing in Iraq right now.

I know I'm definitely not the first to bear witness to this comparison, so I want to hear everyone elses' thoughts on the differences and similariities between Ishbal and Iraq.

Also, I don't mean to turn this into flame-fest. This isn't supposed to be about your thoughts on whether we should be in Iraq or not so don't derive the topic at hand into that.

Hey, someone else who noticed this! I think it's quite possible there's a statement being made here, too. I've noticed similarities between Islam and Ishbal that go beyond the close spelling. Monotheistic religions, Middle Eastern cultures, style of clothing, style of worship...it's fascinating.

I've also heard people compare the Ishbal-Amestris relations to a parallel of the Holocaust. Any thoughts on that?

Now that you mention it, it is a lot like the Holocaust. They are being pushed into concentration camps, and we see that their camps get attacked quite frequently.

We never really get any statistics on the death rate for the Ishbal Massacre (unless I'm forgetting something) so we can't really compare numbers. I'm guessing the Holocaust had a higher number of deaths, but I see what you are saying.

Also, there's the fact that it the military is attacking the camps, rather than forcing them into gas chambers, starving them, and other such things that took place under Hitler's rule.

Still two strikingly similar events though. Thanks for pointing that one out.

That struck me too and I agree with that 100%. That's excatly what's happening in Iraq right now. And I bet the people of Iraq are saying the very same thing, but most people aren't bothering to listen.

Everything in here is a definite possibility, though we'll never know for sure. There are so many subtleties and allusions in most well anime animes that it's really hard to really keep track of them all. Fullmetal Alchemist is amazing in that sense.

Ishbal people are far too similar to Muslims to be a coincidence. Even the main character, SCAR, disobeys his own religion by doing extreme things. Sort of like modern day extremists that go even farther then what thier religion permits. Also like the above poster said Ishbal people are monothiestic just like Muslims. Also Ishbal people believe Alchemy to be the work of the devil. Muslims also believe that Black Magic can only be done with the devils help. I wonder if this was done on purpose?

Well then they should've gotten rid of Saddam on their own. Which just wasn't happening.

I think it should be said that the homunculus were manipulating everything, Lior, the military, etc. just so they could make a Philosopher's Stone. I guess you could see it as a parallel to current events in the Middle East, but I just don't think of it that way.

About the numbers. You have to think that Ishbal was a whole race that almost disappered, with very few survivors. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were pretty much the same. The Holocaust must have had a lot more deaths, but it's still a whole race that was almost wiped out.

Now, we can also compare with the time period when Ed crosses the Gate. It was 1920's, I think. Sources say that WW1 started in 1914, because of an assasination. Now, the Ishbal Massacre started about 10 years before the main time frame of FMA, and it is explained that it started because of a secret team that were ordered to assasinate someone. So, based on that WW1 started about the same time the Ishbal Massacre started, for the same reasons.

http://www.revisionists.com/

About the thruth of the jewish holocaust.

omg, this is the lamest comparison i've ever seen. all of u that see a comparison between the ishbal war and any real wars are only seeing what u want to see into it. there is no comparison between it. this thread has gone way off the spectrum of intelligent conversation from the first post and into liberal fanatical views, intolerance, and racism. gee, btw, nice link hikari.

Ah, true. I forgot that they mention (several times, even) that they almost killed off the entire Ishbal race.

Call me Hohenheim, plz

You're crazy.

Yo!
there's a doubtful things that happen in all FMA series that might be
related with religious believes & country's
things that might be related with Islam, Judaism even Christianity
and Nazism
so, it wont be a strange thing to think of Ishbal as Iraq and its endless war
*sponsor*
if you've seen episode 30 you'll see Edward starring at fast changing pictures of Hitler and Arabic Alchemy book's pages,etc

ya know, I thought about Iraq war when they talik about Ishbal too....

if the ishbal war or anything in fma is meant to relate to any real life events it's to european colonialism. certainly not to 21st century american politics.

I personally think that it has more to do with the World Wars than anything else.

I dont know about that. There are too many striking similarities to the IRAQ WAR and the ISHBAL war. Both the fictional Ishbal people and the Iraqi's have similar beliefs. (Believe in one God, architectural, alchemy is the devils work/ black magic is the devils work.) Especially in the current events where the ISHBAL refugees have to suffer because of one extremist and that is SCAR. Innocent civilians are suffering because of Osama bin laden as well.

Just because there are similarities, dosen't necessarily mean it's allegorical. But just because it isn't allegorical, dosen't mean it's not applicable.

I don't think FMA was mean to be a symbolic protest in any way shape or form. The Ishbal War is not Iraq, Vietnam, or any world war. It is, essentially, any war. There dosen't have to be a historic or modern parallel to illustrate the horrors of humankind in such situations.

This seems similar to when Tolkien was accused of racist allegory in Lord of The Rings, or that it was theorized that his series was symbolic for the rize of hitler, or that the ring stood for nuclear weapons. However, Tolkien said himself that he dislikes allegory, however he supports applicability. The difference being, he wasn't selling propaganda with which to tell a historical tale, but it might be clear to anyone that the ring has equivalent effects to great power. Those who have it become obsessed and sick with their infatuation. They desire it, becoming less and less of the good people they once were, just as there are humans, even the best intentioned ones who become corrupt with their power and greed, from the corporate criminals of Wall-Street, down to the little kid hall monitor who abuses his priveleges for the first time. It's not a shallow retelling, but a complex and less preachy way of portraying that element of human nature.

In the same way, the horror of war and violence in general is reflected upon in Fullmetal Alchemist, and that is meaningful enough.

I personally think this is sort of related to WWII and the holocaust. That's probably why the movie is linked closly to history of WWII because they're both similar.

It can't be the Jewish Holocaust, because (spoiler) on episode 50, Hohenheim said "many people have died on this world, and many many more will die" so he either knows about what's gonna happen or...well, knows what will happen. Also, the number of soldiers who died for the Kenja no Ishi (Philosopher's Stone, I just love the japanese name) which Envy said was much lower than the number of jewish people who died on the Holocaust.

Hey, I wasn't the only one who thought about Iraq while watching FMA!
I am really glad to see people talking about something I thought
was wrong^^

Well, you see, I would be really rude if there's any person who likes
President Bush, but still, i have been thinking what bush has been
doing was wrong. I supported Kerry before last election, and most of
my friends who didn't really like Bush supported him, too. They just
kinda knew it wasn't right to kill anybody.

Remember whenever military in FMA tried to kill all the Ishbals?
That kinda remined of what US Army had done to Iraqi people.
And when Ed found out Homunculues(im not sure about spelling-_-
had been trying to cause problems between military and Ishbals
to get what they wanted, philosopher's stone or whatever, it was like,
Bush pointing at me with his finger, " Hey i wanna have war with
Iraq 'cause i want all their oil!!!! "... i dont know why, but it was like that.

I think, i don't know if i am true, the author tried to give us
messages about the major issues we are having in modern days
by FMA. There are so many thing we take notice as similar in FMA,
not ony Iraq war, but many other things. Actually, we have been
convinced by her work, haven't we?

Of course this is the first thread i read...

How can you compare what happened at Ishbal as the same as what the U.S troops are doing in iraq?

1) The alchemists circled Ishbal, and with souped up alchemy, leveled the place down, killing civilians, militia, soldiers, whoever got in the way. I mean look at what the Crimson Alchemist, Roy or that one buffed up guy did... Now, did the U.S surround Baghdad with battalions and batallions of Artillery and completly annihilate the city? Did they quarintine artillery strikes to 'remove' potential hostiles. Yes. Did they scream in with F-14s and mow down anyone they saw in the streets, civilian, soldier, friend or foe? No.

2) When Ishbal's main defences fell, the State soldiers were sent in, and they most definitly did not differentiate between soldier or civilian, they lit up anything that moved up. Most were inexperienced, I mean, who shakes with fear when they're looking at a defenceless civilian...and the soldier has a gun? Cmon!

3) Dont hate on bush! Sure, when we entered Iraq the place wasnt that bad. But I'm thinking that the State's actions in FMA center more around what happened in Rwandan. The State massacred the Ishballians, and the world stood by and watched.

little OT:

Do you know of the Rwandan Genocide of 1994? One million people killed in 100 days. 1,000,000 children, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, loved ones, cherished ones...all these lives taken in 100 days. And know what Clinton did?

Nothing.

Sure there are inncoent casualties in war...but then, it is war.

-Attic Light

All I meant to say is that, since the worlds are parallel to each other and since the people in Ed's world have their equivalent with the people in our world, so wouldn't events have their equivalent too?? Considering the time frame, I think that World War I would be the equivalent. I don't really think that they meant to do something with the Iraq War thing.

Oh, and BTW, I happen to be ok with Bush. At least he's trying. Specially when a lot of people hate him right about now.

why do people have to overanalyze and look for hidden meanings where there are none? you could compare the ishbal war to just about ANY conflict. WWII with the concentration camps, the native american exterminations, even the crusades... you name a war and there's a possible comparison. its just like the morons that thought the LOTR novels were a social comentary about war... it, just like FMA, wasn't.... ITS JUST A FREAKIN KIDDIE STORY!!!

Holy hell. Am I really coming off as if I think the creators of FMA were trying to make a statement about Iraq because that was by no means my intent. I said that I found similarities between the two events, and for me the similarities stuck out more than the other wars. Other people are seeing more instances of other wars while others are seeing nothing at all.

I'm sorry for overanalyzing and apparently causing some sort of emotional distress because of this. I enjoy doing this type of thing. Overanalyzing can sometimes make mindless forms of entertainment not so brainless and I like discussing these types of things.

On an ending note, I find it hard to believe for anyone to brand FMA as a kiddie show. I'm pretty sure it wasn't exactly, you know, targeted towards 10-year-olds.

I'm with these two guys on this, it doesn't have to have a message, except, that FMA is not just a kiddie story. Full Metal Alchemist has some heavy themes and I wouldn't show it to kids as it might give them nightmares. (OMG! Nina was turned into that thing and was exploded by the scary man!)

In fact, LOTR isn't a kiddie story either, its a VERY LONG series, its definately beyond grade school reading.

As was said in an essay about Ender's Game:
"One thing adolescent readers gain is that the book does not lend itself to the standard toolset of literary analysis. Find the metaphors and the symbols and what do you have? A few obvious and uninteresting observations, because this book is not about how cleverly the writer has encoded his "meaning... What distresses me is that there are actually teachers of literature who think that that is a useful and meaningful assignment, as if fiction were an essay in disguise, and fiction that is NOT an essay in disguise were not worth a serious reading."

Sometimes having a good story, that doesn't preach about which way you should live, is a virtue in itself. Ender's Game or FMA doesn't want to give you easy solutions and it doesn't need to either. Their main goal is to entertain mostly by the fact that you're too old to be watching "Snow White," wherein, the witches always die and where the white girl always gets to live happily ever after, simply because the fates conspire to make it so. The simple fact that you relate to the former and not the latter should speak volumes about the life you are living.

Source

actually, if you look into it, you'll find out that the entire lotr series as well as the silmarillion were all originally nothing more than stories that tolkien created for his children as bedtime stories. sure the published version is a far more polished and refined version of these original stories, but it makes them children's stories nonetheless. just look at the basic structure and concept behind the story; its basically nothing more than an overly elaborate fairy tale archetype... even tolkien and his children all admited to this fact in various interviews...

and honestly if you can't finish this series by the time you complete 5th grade... you suck... just go out and sign up for votech now and save the educational institution time and frustration.

Bah, I probably read better than you did at 5th grade...

I didn't really bother with The Fellowship of the Ring, it was slowwww paced, and I got impatient. If I got bored with it, I assure you that most grade school kids would too. It really isn't that it wasn't readable, I just wasn't entertained.

I've got to agree with some of the others in that the Ishbal War is just a depiction of any war and as such will have similarities with Iraq of course. The race, beliefs etc. are purely coincidental I feel. If you look hard enough you can always see something. It's been done with Shakespeare. It's been done with LOTR. Hell it's been done with Star Wars.

I thought of the WW's

I'm native american, and I saw a relation to indians being wiped off their land.

Some of you are hardcore liberals, and see the iraq war.

It's all about perception, and the people talking about Tolkien and allegory/allusions are right. FMA is most definitely NOT about the Iraq war, though you could infer such a thing.

Oh, and there are pleanty of recorded times that the Iraqi people tried to rebel against Saddam, but were crushed, and 300,000+ people have been killed. Children died all the time due to the pirated Oil for food program... oh, and speaking of oil, this war is NOT about oil!! That might be some portion of it, but come on people, this is why we haven't been able to help out in Sudan. Bush brought up the horrible acts being committed there, and all the dems could say is "he wants the oil." THERE IS NO OIL SURPLUS IN SUDAN!!!

Anyway, this thread isn't about that. It's about how FMA isn't about the Iraq war. Get off it, they are insanely different, and besides, Japan is insanely for the Iraq war.

First off that wasn't Ishbal, that was just a part of the eastern region. Second though I can see how you would see Cornello (the head preast) as a Saddam figure Saddam didn't claim to be a profit of any kind he just claimed to uphold the beliefs of Muhammed (which he never did). I have to agree that there are major similarities to the Iraq war, and the quote does make some sence except for the fact that the military wasn't trying to help her just Ed and Al.

To the actual Ishbal rebellion was more like the annialation of the native americans than the Iraq war, but like I said it was a rebellion and the ruling force is in no way going to tolerate a rebellion. There are many ways to connect these being that the series is very well writen, and I have many times made all sorts of connections to many different real life aspect with this series.

I kind of saw a corellation between Ishbal/Lior and Vietnam/Iraq...both wars based on a lie....that's just me though. I don't think it was entirely intentional, just thought it was interesting though.

I’m amused by the amount of ignorance in this topic, I really am. As an Arab and a Muslim, living right at the center of the Middle East, knowing everything that could possibly be known about Middle Eastern traditions. I’d proudly like to point few things that prove that Ishbal are based on Palestine. No, not Iraq. Palestine. Firstly… Full Metal Alchemist was created at July 2001, the Iraqi war started at March 20, 2003. There’s no way Ishbal is based on Iraq. Secondly, Isballah sounds a lot like Allah. Obviously, that’s what the creators where reffering to. And if you watch the episode where the war of Ishbal was firstly mantioned, you’d notice a building looking a lot like a mousqe in the back. Pretty much like THE QUODS, to be exact.
http://www.ouraqsa.com/images/4.jpg
Plus, the “doctor” mantioned something about Ishbal looking at their reilgon strongly, which is also another similarity to Muslims. The part where the Fire Alchesmist was ready to kill the Ishbalian child, he was holding a gun, wasn’t he? Kids holding weapons to protect themselves is pretty common in Palestine. The last thing I’d like to point out are the colour of the skin and clothes.

Mind pointing out exactly where you are and giving some evidence to back that up instead of just saying "Right in the center of the middle east"? That doesn't provide a very strong argument.


Not very related but also a matter of curiosity is that you seem to have joined and posted once only for the sake of ressurecting this old topic. Is that your sole purpose for joining the community?



Lots of analogies can be interpreted between the cultures of the FMA world, and certainly, not all of them are flattering. It's very possible that the creators of the FMA anime wanted to take this plot point of the war and this particular desert culture as an analogy for modern struggles. (Which feels unsettling and even a little cheap. Thinly veiled allegory is not nearly as powerful as a universal story about war, racism and human depravity in general. I won't pretend that I adore everything about the anime without question; there are many narrative flaws and weaknesses, and that point is one of them, imo.)

It might be noted, however, the differences in the manga's vision of Ishbal, and the anime's as well as the transliteration of the names. It's very obvious that the cultures are drawn to be similar but different in some ways to our own world cultures: Xing to China, for example, and with Ishbal seeming to be a melting pot of various middle eastern influences, much as Amestris is shown as an odd steampunk country of european origin. However, in the manga, Ishbal was not far from Amestris, nor even its own country, but was a small region within Amestris itself, and the war was not a diplomatic exploration attempt gone wrong, but a civil war. If anything, the more accurate parallels drawn up in that situation would be to A- America and its opression of the natives, or B- America's imprisonment of Japanese American citizens in WWII. Of course, none of these parallels run perfectly pure and through, but rather, the Ishbal War is its own story, which draws from common travesties committed in many wars over the course of humanity, thus making it both and original war, and also "Any War".

But of course, in both the anime and the manga, the driving forces behind the war: the manipulators, the minds, the ideals and the people who push the agenda, are not clearly parallel to any individual culture, issue or political force that comes to mind.

Unless of course, it turns out that George W Bush is a 500 year old body snatcher with a case of bad rotting skin who seeks immortality. Doubt it.


Also, the name is most likely to be intended to be romanized as "Ishvar", which makes their subsequent name for God "Ishvara", which seems to be derived from the Sanskrit term for "Lord". All of these are merely projections, of course.

to quote Hilde Knight, because i cant quote for some reason, what your saying is complete bull..... The fact that you compare both of them sickens me. 700,000 people killed, most iraqi, and about 3 million refugees i think, with 100,000 leaving each month. "get up and use their own legs"? in case you havnt noticed, iraqs legs have been broken by the allied forces, but the only thing now holding it up is the allied forces. One cell over their fighting back has 160,000 members. thats more than the iraqi army, and thats ONE cell out of god knows how many smaller ones. the fact is the coalistion started this problem, and their going to need to fix it, and it isnt going to happin over night you know.

What I'd like to point out and remind everyone, is that we don't really know what Arakawa had in mind when she wrote FMA, and Ishivarans in the FMA (as far as FMA manga goes, she is still writing the story, but we also know, from the Interviews she gave, that she already has the ending of FMA manga, and pretty much known that from the beginning of FMA.)

Having said that, FMA is a very interesting story, and we can draw many analogies to the situations we know/learned personally, be it Palestine situation, European colonialism, the history of Indian natives in the U.S., or the Japanese-Americans in the concentration camps during WWII, and so on, and I'd like to keep this thread as a thread where we can post such analogies to FMA story.

@Creepy_Lizard - Welcome to the board!! I think your analogy of comparing Ishvar to Palestine is interesting, and I tend to agree that if we compare FMA to the Middle East, Palestinians are good example to compare to Ishvarans.
(Although, IMO, Palestine - Israel wars, the latest in the centuries old conflicts in that region, might not exactly match the FMA story. ^^)

@helmet boy - Also, welcome to the board!! I see you have a strong opinion about the current Iraq war, and I appreciate your input. Tho, a little reminder that I would like to see this thread to remain as a place to bring out the analogies to FMA story, and staying away from becoming a vehicle to debate the current Iraq situation.

is true

Well I'm convinced. Who the hell needs proof when some newbie can just pop along and confirm it?
Seriously, proof please.

Umm... If AudioAlchemist's location is correct, then he should know. Malaysia is a Muslim country. (BTW, welcome to the forums, AudioAlchemist!)

Did some research on it anyway... The Quran states this:

“They followed what the Shayaateen (devils) gave out (falsely of the magic) in the lifetime of Sulaymaan (Solomon). Sulaymaan did not disbelieve, but the Shayaateen (devils) disbelieved, teaching men magic and such things that came down at Babylon to the two angels, Haaroot and Maaroot, but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, ‘We are for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us).’ And from these (angels) people learn that by which they cause separation between man and his wife, but they could not thus harm anyone except by Allaah’s Leave. And they learn that which harms them and profits them not. And indeed they knew that the buyers of it (magic) would have no share in the Hereafter. And how bad indeed was that for which they sold their ownselves, if they but knew.

And if they had believed and guarded themselves from evil and kept their duty to Allaah, far better would have been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!”

[al-Baqarah 2:102-103]

I hope this is proof enough.

I know this is quite obvious but

Hitler = Furhrer = King Bradley

BRADLEY IS A NAZI!!!!!!! ie Homunulus are nazis!!!!!!!!!!

ignore the last line XD

Hmm... Not exactly, Night Shadow Alchemist! The Homunculi weren't in political power. It'd be more accurate to say that the military are all Nazis. Edward Elric is a Nazi.

No, on a more serious note, Fuhrer simply means 'leader' in German. Nazi Germany was ruled by a totalitarian system, i.e. only one person in power: Hitler. The Nazis didn't have much of a say, especially those Hitler thought to oppose him. Remember the Night of the Long Knives?

Amestris is more of a military dictatorship. The military has sole power, although Bradley didn't hold on as tightly to his power as Hitler did. He gave the military certain power too.

((Someone correct me if I'm wrong... I didn't really like History lessons... And I absolutely hate politics and learning all the types of government...))