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Goral, you bring up many valid points, and I respect your opinion. Now, let me see if I can explain this so that you're not QUITE so irritated with the episode.

Consider this: A soldier comes home from war and goes out to have dinner with his family for the first time in years. While they are out, a man starts hitting on his wife, so he takes his steak knife and plunges it into the younge man's chest.

Now, I realize the differences between the scene I just described and one that Roy experienced, bit I am just illustrating a simple point. There's killing for others, and then there's killing for yourself. Now, I don't believe in war, and I don't think any kind of murder is ever really very good. You see, just because someone is a war veteran, that doesn't mean they can go around setting people on fire using the excuse "I've killed before, how is this any different?"

But I do agree with you on some points. I didn't like Scar lecturing Roy, nor did I like Riza being ok with HER killing Envy, (since I always thought she was friends with Hughes too.) But one thing I do understand is why they didn't want Roy to go to downtown crazyville and just kill Envy 'cause he felt like it. Being a veteran doesn't excuse that, so yeah, in my opinion, I think it would change him. Do you get where I'm coming from?
You cant tell people not to respond to your own posts. Dont want people to react to it? Dont say anything. It's simple.

QUOTE (Hagaren_4ever @ Apr 28 2010, 09:46 AM) *
But I do agree with you on some points. I didn't like Scar lecturing Roy, nor did I like Riza being ok with HER killing Envy, (since I always thought she was friends with Hughes too.) But one thing I do understand is why they didn't want Roy to go to downtown crazyville and just kill Envy 'cause he felt like it. Being a veteran doesn't excuse that, so yeah, in my opinion, I think it would change him. Do you get where I'm coming from?

I think because Riza feels that she's already hit rock bottom, and can't fall much further. Either this or she would much rather take the burden of Envy's murder than see Roy fall so low. Also, yes there is a difference between killing for your own personal reasons and killing for someone else, I agree.

I also think killing for your own personal and greedy reasons (even if it's to avenge a friend) is a low act, wait no. That's what I've been taught and that's the message that is usually portrayed. When it comes to comics, movies, novels, any kind of media, it's not really about what would really happen but what should and what kind of ethical message you want to convey. If I were in Roy's situation, I probably would of set Envy on fire, and if anyone jumped in my way, burn them too. But that's not ethical and that's not what Arakawa thinks is ethical so that is in fact, not what happened.
Y'know in my review of the manga chapter, I wrote that Envy's revelation (which was not my key argument; I questioned the development of the revelation in comparison to the previous facts. Evidently, I was so angered by Envy's 'Haha, you are ants!' rants that I didn't realize he was perhaps protesting too much) gave a new insight on his murder of Hughes. For all his bravado about killing that 'moron,' it must have bugged Envy very much that Hughes chose death rather than harm the person he loved- dying for a human affection the Homunculus wanted but could never have.
Not that I sympathize with either Envy. I thought both version's fates- neutralized of their power/OWNED by Alchemists or humans in flying machines/suicide or forced to kill the one bane & reason for living- appropriate. Then again, I don't think any punishment however big could ever repair the damage Envy did. Hughes is still dead... sad.gif )
I am no stranger to the 'Revenge is bad for Roy' discussion. I thought revenge was the source of Anime1Roy's ruin, as I described in my essay Roy's Defeat, published here a good ten months before the MangaRoy/Envy battle. I might as well add something new.
One has to realize the power of being Fuhrer. It is an absolute authority with no checks or balances or limits whatsoever. Thus, the temptation to abuse such power for one's desire is pretty strong. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Roy must possess a strong character, morality, and self-control to not only use such power wisely, but to actually dissolve it for the democracy, especially since this means removing the immunity from being convicted & executed for war crimes. One wonders if Roy can succeed against such a challenge. Caesar Augustus saw being Emperor as a short-phase plan that would lead to the restoration of the Republic. That didn't work out. Just because Roy reached age thirty with a nice post-war record of nobility doesn't guarantee he will be like that forever. Henry VIII of England also seemed like a noble king at age thirty. But later when things didn't go his way (getting no surviving sons from 1st wife, denied divorce by the Church), he violently made sure they did. By age forty-six, he had killed 1 wife, several friends (Thomas More), and a whole lot of his subjects.
So Roy has quite a challenge before him, so there can't be any room for immoral lapses before he becomes Fuhrer. Killing Envy basically means he's lost the challenge. If he can kill Envy by pure emotion and no restraint- because he feels like it- then as Fuhrer Roy might handle similar emotionally-trying situations the same way because he feels like it. And there is a big difference between doing things because he feels like it & doing the right thing.
Excellent points bringing up Henry VIII and Caesar Augustus smile.gif

I've always found Scar's message to Roy interesting. "I wonder how a world led by a beast in human skin would end up"
Scar is referencing Wrath and Father right here I believe. Roy is wanting to change the country, but by stooping as low as killing for personal reasons, he would be just as horrible a ruler as Bradley.
Some thoughts:

-I gotta say, man, the art was really, I don't know, crisp. It all seemed so nice.
-Finally! We get to see the "burn my back" scene. Hold on a sec'... Did Riza just take off her shirt? Wow. Did not see that coming.
-Riza getting injured by Envy... That looked painful.
-The melodramatic music always gets me
-Envy... By the end of all this I was pitying him. And his Va did a wonderful job.
-They threw in flashbacks of Hughes, huh.
-Did they finally fire the FMA guy? Oh wait never mind...
-This episode seemed like a two parter to me for some reason
-And Alex gets some moments to show how much of a beast he is
-Oh hi Izumi
-They changed the ending? Not bad IMO

Overall this episode was excellent. I really like how Envy's death was portrayed. It all seemed really good.
Bag of Magic Food
QUOTE (theanimalmafia @ Apr 30 2010, 09:52 PM) *
They changed the ending? Not bad IMO

Oh that's right, they put the credits on top of the belated confrontation between Hohenheim and Father. I hate to try to guess what the American broadcast will have to chop up for that.
I rolled my eyes at how painfully dragged out the first three quarters of the episode was, but the Armstrong siblings in combat was definitely enjoyable, and it's good to see Izumi Curtis again. I'm also looking forward to Hohenheim versus Father.

If anyone's interested, my review is up on my blog.
Mr. Deathy
QUOTE (deet-tastic @ Apr 29 2010, 09:04 PM) *
Excellent points bringing up Henry VIII and Caesar Augustus smile.gif

I've always found Scar's message to Roy interesting. "I wonder how a world led by a beast in human skin would end up"
Scar is referencing Wrath and Father right here I believe. Roy is wanting to change the country, but by stooping as low as killing for personal reasons, he would be just as horrible a ruler as Bradley.

You know I've been wondering, did the whole scene remind anyone of the movie Se7en?

I mean I'll put this in spoilers and also link the scene I mean but yeah...

Although in the movie the John Doe guy actually wants to be killed, there are a lot of other similarities. Detective Mills is obviously Roy, Somerset can be seen to be filling the roles of well...Scar, Hawkeye and Ed rolled into one I guess.

Either way both situations have someone filled with the emotion of Wrath, for a deceased loved one killed by the guy in front of them, faced with the option of letting loose and killing this person who represents Envy or holding back to stop themselves "becoming" Wrath.

When I thought of the movie scene I thought of how Roy would basically have become "Wrath" too, which I think symbolically, like you said too, means that he would've been just like Bradley.

I'm not sure if Arakawa has even seen the movie, but I do think the last part there was deliberate. The big difference to the scene of course though is that John Doe really wanted to be killed and was happy, where as Envy didn't want to die and was in complete distress.

I also wonder if Arakawa ever actually considered a plot point like Roy taking over as Wrath the Homunculus just like Ling became Greed. Obviously nothing remotely close to that happened in the story but it seems like she might've at least thought of the idea.
Envy's Lady
I've been trying to post here for a while. >_<

Anyway, I thought that Envy's final scenes were really touching. I liked him before I even knew he had an inferiority complex, although I always kind of suspected that maybe he did have one. I have one myself, so I like his character even more based on the fact that I can relate to how he feels about himself. sad.gif It's very sad though.

When Envy turned into Hughes' wife when he killed was because he saw that picture of Hughes and his family. Envy got jealous of it. It made him feel lonely. So he wanted to ruin it so to speak.

A lot of other people in here have already said stuff that I also agree with.

I think the fact that the author had Envy kill himself in the end was the best way to go since it would have felt wrong for anyone to kill him when he was in that state really.
Please add FMA:B English dubbed episode 54 (on CN on Adult Swim) talk-back/discussions here. smile.gif

FMA:B will air 1:00 AM - 1: 30 AM and 5:00 AM - 5:30 AM eastern time. smile.gif
Travis did just a great job as Roy but Colleen and Wendy as Riza and Envy did also an amazing job.
I wanted to see this episode for months in english,because it's my favorite episode. They didn't disappoint me.

I also really love the end from episode 58 in english (I already saw all episodes in english). It was just....WOW.
I must say, one of the things that stood out to me the most in this episode was that very first scene in which Roy and Riza were at the grave of the dead Ishvalan child.

I thought Colleen's performance was amazing here. Especially when she was talking about how she had trusted Roy with her father's research. Her tone sounded so harsh, but at the same time, almost heart-broken. It was incredible.

And Wendy and Travis just sounded great the whole time. (As did Colleen) I have to say, it was awesome biggrin.gif
I loved this episode! This episode tops even last week's ep 53 in my fav meter. VAs for Riza, Roy, Envy all did great jobs, IMO, especially Envy. And, dub English script was all right.. thank god they didn't put any weird twist. xp Although, in English we don't get that "kick" when Izumi says her lines, and that's too bad, but I guess there is no way of conveying that in English. (Her lines are a take on some famous/familiar lines in Japanese when heroes show up. ^^)
Also, I loved the way they re-arranged the ending for this episode!
Dang, Colleen did beautifully at the beginning for the "burn my back" scene. That's one thing that stood out for me. She was just amazing in general, as always, so no complaints there.

One thing I don't remember hearing in Brotherhood, or the first series, was the voice of whomever Envy was disguised as blending into Envy's own voice when switching into his original form. For some reason, I was totally in love with the transition of Roy's voice to Envy's after Riza played that trick on him. Don't think they did that with the original. I freakin' loved the tone in Roy's voice when he was surprised to find Ed with them, the "Aw, Fullmetal. Let me have that," and his threat to burn Ed's hand. And when Riza told him she knew he was a better person than that and she couldn't see him fall to that level. Everyone nailed the tones of the emotion coming through their voices. And good job Wendy. XD I knew you were dreading this scene. XD

I only had a few nick picks. One was some of Ed's dialogue when he was yelling at Roy about looking at his own face. I didn't like how Ed asked him if he would become a monster, or something like that, rather than screaming out becoming the ruler of the country was what he was fighting for. And then Travis' attempts with his final scream when blasting Envy and his cry when he let out that final blast down the tunnel sounded a little awkward. But then Miki Shinichirou is my most favorite seiyuu, and was nothing short of God of Voices when it came to these scenes (his screams and cries never fail to give me goosebumps) and after watching this episode over 50 times literally subbed, it was strange hearing it in english finally. So Travis (for me personally) had A LOT to fill in, and I had a REALLY hard time not comparing his performance with the sub, even though I'm usually pretty good about that.

So other than that one line from Ed (Vic's actually performance through the whole thing was downright amazing), and a little of Roy's mega screams/yells (not the actual dialogue; he got that down perfectly), everything was amazing as expected. Congrats guys, especially you Travis, considering after watching so many series just because of my love for Shinichirou over the course of 11 years (with this scene being one of the best in his career in my opinion), you took up the challenge wonderfully. smile.gif
See it's funny because I actually thought the opening scenes with Riza were the weakest in the episode. I really didn't like how Colleen did them, for whatever reason. I felt like she was acting, if that makes any sense, without really feeling like it was genuine emotion. I thought she did fantastic with everything else, but I really thought the opening Ishval scene was the weakest scene I've ever heard her to do on the show. I preferred the original Japanese much better. I thought the original approach of letting the words themselves be the reproach while her voice showed the heartbreak worked better than the angriness in how Colleen did it. It was just too, I don't know, obvious and I thought felt forced.

On the other hand I loved Envy and Roy again this week and thought they did fantastic. I was able to listen to them without constantly comparing them to the original, whom I thought were just utterly brilliant, especially Roy's Japanese VA, who just totally completely blew me away, I mean WOW. But I thought they both did extremely well considering the level they had to live up to(imo). Travis actually did that final blasting Envy scene and the tunnel blast scene, mentioned above, better than I had imagined he would. I was really really concerned about those scenes, but I actually preferred Travis' Envy blasting scene to Miki's and while I don't think anything could top Miki's tunnel blast scene, I thought Travis still did it very very well, he came a lot closer than I expected and considering how amazing it was originally that puts it in good company. There were little adjustments in tone for both characters here and there, etc but they still "fit", imo, nothing made me go "Oh that was so much better in the original, this just doesn't work".

Vic was great as Ed as usual, I actually rather liked the whole "turning into a monster" thing a bit better than the way I remember it being translated in the subtitled version I saw, so that didn't bother me, but the first half of this episode was really Roy's and Envy's, imo, and Ed didn't make that much of an impression on me but I thought Vic hit the right notes.

Just so as not to single Colleen out for a bit criticism above, I have to say I thought J Michael Tatum as Scar was a bit off in his reading of the scenes too, which surprises me because I think Tatum is awesome and I really like the way his Scar voice is so much different from many of his usual "smooth talking" elegant voices. I'd never have believed they were the same person. That said, I much preferred the, to my hearing anyway, more laid back approach in the acting of those scene of the Japanese version.

Again I think they used "angry voices" where the reproach in the words alone, like a subtle sarcasm in this case, worked better, especially because as Scar still said, who was he to stop someone from taking revenge when he'd done so much damage in his own quest for it. The "laid back" approach sold that attitude, whereas the angry attitude was more like "Who do you think you are!?!"

I found myself getting annoyed with both Scar and Riza in those scenes, because I felt they were overly judgmental, whereas in the originals I sympathized and it felt I don't know, they were all kind of in it together, they all understood each other. I didn't feel like Riza was "judging" Roy in the Japanese Ishval scene, I felt like having gone down the road herself as a sniper--where she started out wanting to do something good but ended up doing something terrible, she understood how it happened, they were both on the same level really, even though his abilities obviously meant he was able to do more damage. And with Scar I felt almost like he was speaking as the voice of experience and was looking at it almost dispassionately. Whereas in the English versions it felt too much like they were looking down and judging Roy, as though they both hadn't done things just as bad.

But still...53 and 54 are my favorites of the whole show and IMO the dubs all did an overall great job.
(Warning: truly sorry for my bad English, since I'm not from English-speaking countries)

Actually, this is one of my most favorite RoyAi episodes, along with 19, 30, 38, 40, 58-59 and so on biggrin.gif
When I watched it the first time, I was like "Weeeee! OMG, finally!! RoyAi!! Ishval flashback!" and shipper mode-on biggrin.gif I really love Orikasa and Shinichiro - they voiced Riza and Roy so damn perfectly throughout the whole series <3
When it came to English dub, I decided to rewatch it just to make some comparisons in translating and voice acting. To be honest, Travis dissapointed me a bit in "Crush my back" thing - for me, he didn't sound that tragically and deeply as Shinichiro did, while Colleen just made me feel like I'm in paradise. Because - OMG - how it was!! So deep, so right, so... Riza-like after the Ishval War <3 She was awesome. No - more than awesome.

Despite that flashback, the voice acting of Travis in this episode was good, thought I couldn't get used to it after Shinichiro - their voices sounded a lot different from each other (not like Ookawa and Travis - theirs were similar), so it was hard for me to be fully satisfied with the dubbed version.

Anyway - VAs did a great job! <3
For anyone who missed this episode, it will be on again tonight, directly following episode 53, on Adult Swim later tonight. smile.gif
For anyone who missed this episode, it will be on again tonight, directly following episode 53, on Adult Swim later tonight. smile.gif
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