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Disasterpiece
I've been studying this for years, and I vehemetly oppose the idea that 9/11 was carried out by the government. Loose Change, 9/11Truth, Zeitgeist, they all base their "evidence" off of circumstantial events and (this is true) alter quotations and testimonies of witnesses such as FDNY personnel to fit their agenda.

Agree? Disagree? Challenge me?
Vagrant
Haha, I'll take the bait on this one.

There are some reasonable arguments for a reinvestigation. Not to discover any conspiracy, but to get a clearer picture of what happened and possibly solve some muddled information and any discrepancies.

That's about it though. The whole Bush did it/inside job thing doesn't hold much weight.
The tenacity of the "9/11 truthers" is kind of worrying. But they seem to have eased off a little in the past two years. Fewer unrelated YouTube videos are getting comments about it.
(I notice they have the same stubbornness and insistence that the marijuana legalisation obsessors do. That's curious.)
ScarMySoul
Just to put in my two cents here, this is a touchy subject with a lot of people, so (this isn't directed at any one person smile.gif ) please try to keep this topic for getting out of hand.

With that said, I too agree that it wasn't a conspiracy. Although it has been stated that it could have been prevented if intelligence was paid attention too... I don't know, when this happened, I was sitting in school... such a terrible thing to happen. As for people who blame Bush, I think that's a poor excuse for looking for retribution. He didn't sit there an take it, he went after the people who started it. I know that statement would lead into the Iraq war BUT that is an entirely different subject.

That's just me, I don't have much of an opinion on this mostly because I think conspiracy theories are folly anyways. smile.gif
Le Monkey
I dodn't rememner the quote exactly, but it went something like this "The larger the conspiracy, the more mouths you must silence"
And hell, for something this big, it is so insanely impractical to cover it up, I find it insanely improbable that it could have been a master plot by mr bush and his cronies.
still, nothing is imposible
xMinty
QUOTE (Disasterpiece @ Apr 15 2010, 01:50 PM) *
I've been studying this for years, and I vehemetly oppose the idea that 9/11 was carried out by the government. Loose Change, 9/11Truth, Zeitgeist, they all base their "evidence" off of circumstantial events and (this is true) alter quotations and testimonies of witnesses such as FDNY personnel to fit their agenda.

Agree? Disagree? Challenge me?


yes I agree.
It's all part of their plan to scare the citizens into agreeing to their plan of new world order.
Popogeejo
QUOTE (xMinty @ Jul 1 2010, 07:32 PM) *
QUOTE (Disasterpiece)
Agree? Disagree? Challenge me?


yes I agree.
It's all part of their plan to scare the citizens into agreeing to their plan of new world order.


Did you even read the post? He said there was no conspiracy. You don't agree. You think it was some evil group that doesn't exist.
Neurotripsy
I'm not really sure what I believe... I definitely think they should re-open the investigation & carry it out more thoroughly, though- if there weren't so many discrepancies then maybe there wouldn't be half as many 9/11 conspiracy theories as there are.
ScarMySoul
@ Popo I believe she meant that in sarcasm.... rolleyes.gif

@ Neurotripsy I think that would be a waste of time to re-open a case that's closed as far as what happened. There's no reason to think that this was something other than a terrorist attack since Bin Laden openly claimed to take responsibility for this tragedy let alone all the events leading up to it all point in that direction.

I remember watching a documentary on the history channel as to how might this be a conspiracy, and they did a frame by frame break down of the plane that hit the Pentagon and they said their was something "white" that flew into the pentagon before the plane did and caused an explosion before the plane hit and you can see that when they cleaned it up a bit that its the nose of the damn plane... they were claiming it was a missile that was fired from somewhere else... there's so many holes in the conspiracy web and it being all set up by the US government so that WE could and invade Afghanistan and take out Hussein in Iraq...

You could always watch South Park and see the truth behind the conspiracy... tongue.gif


Popogeejo
QUOTE (ScarMySoul @ Jul 17 2010, 02:09 PM) *
@ Popo I believe she meant that in sarcasm.... rolleyes.gif

http://www.fullmetal-alchemist.com/forums/...showtopic=13677
She honestly believes in the NWO.
Even if such were not the case;
"I don't think there was a conspiracy, do you agree?"
"I agree, there was a conspiracy."
Is still wrong which was what I was correcting. It should be "I disagree, there was a conspiracy."
ScarMySoul
actually no it wasn't wrong lol I didn't even see her post about NWO... wow.... huh.gif
Night Watcher Alchemist
Yes, I also agree! The events that took place on 9/11/2001 was a disaster. There's just one problem I have with it; how much of a deal it's made.

Over here, in NY, yes, it should be big, but they always over due it, so much, I lose my ability to feel pity for those who died, or for the families that suffered from the loss. I don't like that, really.

A conspiracy? Yes! Memorialized a bit over dramatically? Here, oh yeah!
Popogeejo
QUOTE (Night Watcher Alchemist @ Jul 20 2010, 03:32 AM) *
A conspiracy? Yes!

Present some evidence. Just a little.
Night Watcher Alchemist
QUOTE (Popogeejo @ Jul 19 2010, 08:49 PM) *
Present some evidence. Just a little.


of it being a conspiracy, or it being memorialized a bit over dramatically in NY?
Chiyo
Of it being a conspiracy he means Night Watcher. It's a belief many seem to hold with very little or no evidence as a basis. What about 9/11 is different to any other terrorist attacks around the world, what evidence states the Government had a play in it?
Night Watcher Alchemist
Just needed to clarify, Chiyo! You do have a point, though. 9/11 has been called a conspiracy with little to no evidence. I try to look back on things and see where things stand out, trying to recalibrate.

We all know that the way it started was a plane that hit one of the two twin towers. Not to mention when the second one was hit. These were two out of the four passenger jet airlines that were hijacked.

On that morning this happened, so, in what way, how did 19 terrorists hijack 4 planes with getting their weapons passed security, more or less, get to one? I'd like to question how they got there without a little help. That is one way I see it!

Here's a second question. If these guys were doing this for the feudal ways that their religion used to spread, claiming it was for Allah's name, why on the night before they die do they commit the sins of their religion such as eating pork, gambling, not to mention denying Allah's oath, as they call? I'm not Islamic, but I do know enough about it to know doing it in Allah's name is just a whole ton of bull crap to put it basic.
Razzy
QUOTE
of it being a conspiracy, or it being memorialized a bit over dramatically in NY?

I refuse to see how an attack on a nation can be memorialized "over dramatically". We can't forget an attack such as this, especially when there are firefighters and other rescue workers, among other people, are still suffering from 9/11; many lost their jobs due to their health.
I live in NY too. I don't live in the city, but I live on Long Island. I was too young to completely comprehend what was going on at the time (if your age on your profile is correct, you were even younger than I was), but I remember how scared everyone was when they saw what had happened.
However, when I got older, I understood the seriousness of it. I can never completely understand; I don't think anyone could completely understand unless they were there at the time or their lives were directly affected by it.
I mean, I'm just saying that the over 2000+ lives lost on 9/11 is something that we shouldn't forget, like anything we are taught to remember, like Pearl Harbor, The Holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you know.
I don't know, that's just my opinion.

And to stay relevant to the topic... I don't think it's a conspiracy. There's not enough proof.
Night Watcher Alchemist
Maybe where you are it's memorialized regularly, just over dramatically here, Razzy.

To stay out of an argument, and on topic; I'd like to rethink this through. True, you're right that there's not a lot of evidence, but the questions still pop up. My yes is down to an I don't know. Ways my fingers point go right and left.

On the right, you have little evidence, and less reasoning that makes the answer no. However, on the left, there are questions that popped up, like the ones I questioned, adding to the balance that makes a maybe or a yes. I don't know about the rest, here, but as of right now, I don't know what to think.
Popogeejo
QUOTE (Night Watcher Alchemist @ Jul 22 2010, 03:14 PM) *
On that morning this happened, so, in what way, how did 19 terrorists hijack 4 planes with getting their weapons passed security, more or less, get to one? I'd like to question how they got there without a little help. That is one way I see it!

The same way the shoe bomber and trouser bomber did? Despite what airlines claim their security can be laughably easy to get around. It wouldn't be terribly hard to get a few knives or even a pistol on board with just a small amount of sneakiness.

QUOTE
Here's a second question. If these guys were doing this for the feudal ways that their religion used to spread, claiming it was for Allah's name, why on the night before they die do they commit the sins of their religion such as eating pork, gambling, not to mention denying Allah's oath, as they call? I'm not Islamic, but I do know enough about it to know doing it in Allah's name is just a whole ton of bull crap to put it basic.

That would just mean their pretence of doing it for Allah and Islam is shaky. Plenty of people who claim to be religious go against their teachings. None of that, assuming it's even true, would indicate a conspiracy.
Disasterpiece
In my opinion, any "proof" put forward by conspiracy theorists consists of the following:

--circumstantial evidence

--coincidences

--initial and incorrect reports from news sources the morning of the attacks

--lack of basic engineering knowledge

--unwillingness to take into account real-world science and physics

--"evidence" that is left to their interpretation of videos and photos when such "evidence" is not there.

Moreover, some food for thought: any operation involving 9/11 would have been astronomical. The cost, gag orders, too many things would have gone wrong with people in the loop.

As such, the following would have needed to have been involved:

-The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did. Yet all of them and the people below are helping him cover up the largest mass murder in US history... Some of them like Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neil have come out for less.

-The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most, if not all, of them. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? (The twisting of these peoples’ statements for donations and DVD sales for Loose Change sickens me.) Only 9/11 conspiracy sites say this: ONE person who sued Bush for not taking action before the event is ordered by the court not to speak to the media about the case. This is not imposing a gag order on the whole fire department as some of these sites claim. They are lying to cover up this mass murder by the government or the building owner. Why? They don't even know...

Conspiracy theorists bring up an article in Fire House magazine which says the fire department wanted to stop the steel from being sold in order to test the fire proofing and other non-bomb/controlled demolition related investigations. They twist the article’s context to make it seem like the firefighters questioned the idea that fire brought down the towers.

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=
OnlineArticles&SubSe%20ction=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=
25&ARTICLE_ID=131225

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Dis...neArticles&
SubSection=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=130026

Many of these men and women come from the military, yet we are to believe they are so afraid they rather die in the government’s next mass murder than come out and expose this.

-The courts for imposing a gag order [SEE above]

-The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. Motive? None...

-The NYC port Authority who lost personnel. Motive?

-All the people in the Pentagon who have not called for an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist. They did or said nothing while people supposedly trucked in airplane parts to cover the crime. Why? Again, no answer...

-The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who would rather have investigations of the decisions which led to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money... [note: Whenever killing someone, pay off the relative. They won’t say anything.]

-The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like the BBC and Al Jazeera. Why? No answer here either...

-The photographers from around the world who took pictures of the towers which clearly show bowing of the perimeter columns. These photos support the NIST hypothesis that the sagging trusses lead to the collapse. Some photos also show the core intact shortly after collapse which also not only support the NIST hypothesis but discredits the "Controlled demolition" account.

-Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites are also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

-PBS Nova since they created a documentary explaining in detail how and why the buildings fell. None of it said bomb.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/

-Everyone in the NIST who covers up the largest mass murder in US history. This independent organization doesn't have a moral person in hundreds of employees because not one has come out exposing this so called "Conspiracy". In fact, the hundreds of scientist who signed onto the report are willing to not only lie for Bush but cover up the largest mass murder in American history. Some suggest only a handful can do the job but that's simply impossible. The team in charge of the computer modeling has to be in sync with the team of structural engineers and so on. There are hundreds involved in this investigation and every team has to work with other teams using the same evidence and specifications.

-NY Governor Pataki because he sold steel from the WTC for the construction of the USS New York. If the argument is the government sold the steel in order to cover up the crime then Pataki is one of the criminals.

-The NY city scrap yards because they also sold steel to China before all of it was tested. Bush would have needed to call them up and tell them to sell it before they could have investigated every beam. A task which would have taken years and years not to mention millions more. Ironically the republican Mayor Bloomberg could not be involved since he asked the scrap yards not to sell the steel on behalf of the firefighters.

-EVERY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down and could not have fallen due to fire. If laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context, then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right? Even the ones in other countries. Why? The answer they give is that the engineers don't know about Jones’ work. So in all this time no one has e-mailed Jones' work to any structural engineer?

-Structure Magazine who published a report saying the collapse of WTC 7 may have been due to one column failing.

-The liberals who don't believe the towers were brought down. (Like me) They're helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why? No clue...

-The CIA

-The FBI

-FEMA

-The American Society of Civil Engineers who have produced peer reviewed papers showing how what Conspiracy Theorists say is impossible is possible.

-NORAD

-The FAA who saw planes which conspiracy theorists say never existed.

-The Silverstein Group who they say got together with Bush to blow up the building for insurance money.

-Silverstein's Insurance Company who didn't question the collapse and paid out over 2 billion to Silverstein. Why? Conspiracy Theorists say the insurance company just wants to pass on the bill to the public but they already fought Silverstein in a number of law suits concerning the amount.

-American Airlines (Pentagon)

-United Airlines (Pentagon)

-Logan, Newark and Dulles Airport for losing the planes

-Scientists and engineers who developed the remote control plane technology

-Installers of the remote control devices in the planes (Pentagon)

-Remote controllers of the planes (Pentagon)

-Scientists and engineers who developed the new demolition technology and carried out practical tests and computer models to make sure it would work.

-Installers of the demolitions devices in the three buildings

-People who worked at the company(s) the installers used as cover

-Airphone etc employees who said they got calls from passengers (Pentagon)

-Faux friends and relatives of the faux passengers or just the faux relatives who claim to have been called by their loved ones or just the psyops who fooled relatives into thinking they really were their loved ones. (Pentagon)

-People who detonated the buildings

-anyone who thinks the conspiracy is a diversion to take liberal activist focus off of real crimes.


That's the only way it could have been a conspiracy taking into account every possible theory put forward.

*cough*
Night Watcher Alchemist
[/quote]
That would just mean their pretence of doing it for Allah and Islam is shaky. Plenty of people who claim to be religious go against their teachings. None of that, assuming it's even true, would indicate a conspiracy.
[/quote]

it is true! my teacher showed us the article.
Chiyo
Never EVER put your faith in articles and the media. They lie, they spin, even when they should voice no opinion the often do if you read it carefully.
Disasterpiece
QUOTE (Chiyo @ Aug 1 2010, 02:26 AM) *
Never EVER put your faith in articles and the media. They lie, they spin, even when they should voice no opinion the often do if you read it carefully.


I put my faith in things where I can apply real-world logic and common sense.

Initial reports of that day were all over the place, nobody knew what was going on--I even heard that helicopters attacked the WTC
ScarMySoul
QUOTE (Disasterpiece @ Aug 1 2010, 09:49 AM) *
I put my faith in things where I can apply real-world logic and common sense.
Initial reports of that day were all over the place, nobody knew what was going on--I even heard that helicopters attacked the WTC


There was no proof of helicopters attacking the WTC... of all the video footage, WHERE did you see the helicopters.... I watched it as it happened, saw the planes hit, I even saw people jumping out of windows because they felt there was no way out, they were on the 80th floor....

I agree with Chiyo, the media twists things constantly...

QUOTE (Night Watcher Alchemist @ Jul 19 2010, 07:32 PM) *
A conspiracy? Yes! Memorialized a bit over dramatically? Here, oh yeah!



To me, this was the most disgusting comment made, that's like saying things such as the holocaust is over dramatized... Its soon to have been only 9 years since that happened and you think that its too over the top to remember people who lost their lives? sleep.gif
Disasterpiece
QUOTE (ScarMySoul @ Aug 2 2010, 05:57 AM) *
QUOTE (Disasterpiece @ Aug 1 2010, 09:49 AM) *
I put my faith in things where I can apply real-world logic and common sense.
Initial reports of that day were all over the place, nobody knew what was going on--I even heard that helicopters attacked the WTC


There was no proof of helicopters attacking the WTC... of all the video footage, WHERE did you see the helicopters.... I watched it as it happened, saw the planes hit, I even saw people jumping out of windows because they felt there was no way out, they were on the 80th floor....

I agree with Chiyo, the media twists things constantly...

QUOTE (Night Watcher Alchemist @ Jul 19 2010, 07:32 PM) *
A conspiracy? Yes! Memorialized a bit over dramatically? Here, oh yeah!



To me, this was the most disgusting comment made, that's like saying things such as the holocaust is over dramatized... Its soon to have been only 9 years since that happened and you think that its too over the top to remember people who lost their lives? sleep.gif


I was implying that the news had no idea what was going on during the first half hour as all kinds of reports were pouring in, and that conspiracy theorists rely on those initial reports as their main sources that were wrong, so yeah I do know that there were no attack helicopters on 9/11 wink.gif

and yeah Night Watcher, it's not memorialized. There are still people listed as missing from the WTC.
ScarMySoul
QUOTE (Disasterpiece @ Aug 2 2010, 09:03 AM) *
I was implying that the news had no idea what was going on during the first half hour as all kinds of reports were pouring in, and that conspiracy theorists rely on those initial reports as their main sources that were wrong, so yeah I do know that there were no attack helicopters on 9/11 wink.gif


Oh okay lol I was like what the hell.... tongue.gif
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