@ Tombow: Thanks for the correction. That makes my post pretty pointless

To justify my inaneness (inanity?) I just want to say that I haven't read chapters 84 - 98. It's just now that everything is reaching it's peak that it's really hard to stay away from reading the chapters online. Otherwise, I usually wait so I can read the manga in tankobons ^^

@ Sneakyruler: Yeah, that makes sense. I was wondering why Al's body was so gentle and everything, assuming that it was the truth. But if it is like you say, that the truth mirrors the alchemists personality, it makes a whole lot of more sense.

I've just been tired all day today. Which equals, stupid xP

Hi there! I registered just now for commenting all of Fullmetal (y yo también soy hispanoparlante! xD).
Well, I've been reading every page of the thread, and I liked many things, but I wont repeat all. I LOVED this chapter (it's like a christmas gift from Arakawa!), and everything shocked me xD. Well, I made a comparative image of the gates (with anime quality for the first two):
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1990/puertas.jpg
Now I realized that in all the gates there's a reference to the sun. In Ed's (it's not in the image, but there is) it's at the top, with a crown. In Al's it's veeery clear, and in Roy's (where I don't see the resemblance to Riza's tattoo you're talking about) you can see in the shadow a circle with things, like a sun too. The eclipse sure is important here... And it's like "Sun and earth" (for example, in Al's there's a tree growing to the sun). It reminds me to Lior, saying that the Sun is a god (Leto). And Father said that the "Truth is reverenced as a god"... So it all seems to refer the sun... Maybe it's about "killing" the sun? XD Well, enough blind theories I'm glad to be posting here and hope to read you more.

This was on my mind too, and I totally agree with you. What happened to him doesn't seem very fair at all (I know life isn't fair in general but this is just taking the biscuit) and maybe there's a chance that this isn't permanent, that this is all a scheme to throw him off the track. I don't know.

I'm just being hopeful. It could've been a lot, lot worse but this is still a very traumatic thing to have happen to you. In fact, one of my biggest fears is losing my sight so maybe that's why I'm feeling so tetchy about it all.

And Hohenheim's immortality isn't fair neither. In my opinion only Hohenheim and Al will recover the lost things (so Hohenheim can go where his wife is, and Al... well, it's the manga objective, isn't it?).

EDIT: One more thing, I just remembered about the transmutation circle in Xerxes. A monster devouring the sun, meaning "I'll kick god from the sky and become god itself" or something like that. Dunno... the idea of "killing" the sun in some way is taking strength for me O.o
EDIT2: I read the part of the transmutation circle of Xerxes again and it's different. It's "I will project a god from the sky to the earth and it will become the perfect being". Hmmm...

Tombow--Thanks for clearing up what Al's body meant by that ominous line! (No less ominous now than it is before, though!) Just let me make sure I have this right: by returning to the armor to go and fight, Al might be (i.e. probably is) bringing more dispair to the world than if he left with his body? I'm going to assume that's because he's a sacrifice...

You can see it better in this page. If you look, there's the two long snakey things, and then in the middle is the triangle part that's on his gloves too.

I don't know if someone has already explain the "Pride alchemy thing" but this is my theory (feel free to correct me):

I think that Pride and Roy performed a human trasmutation in the same way as Ed and Al did (using Dr. Goldtooth as human being to resurrect) with the only difference that one of the two was forced to do it.
When the circle was activated I think that both Roy and Pride were sent to the Gate room and both saw The Truth and lost something, BUT Roy lost his eyesight while Pride, as homunculus, was able to regenerate what he had lost.

Another theory is that homunculus, due the fact that aren't human beings, cannot see the Truth so cannot neither lose a part of their body nor gain the knowledge.

My only unresolved question is: how did Roy physically activate the circle?

Wrath said that "Pride has assimilated another alchemist who possessed the knowledge" (Kimblee)
http://www.mangastream.com/read/fullmetal_alchemist/102-9/5

So I guess he can do alchemy that is within the power of Kimblee.

Either that or he was talking about the Doc himself (it wasn't clear). Just because his body was still there doesn't mean he hadn't sucked out his brains by that point

Also I guess some confusion was warranted given the wording but yes, Al's Body was referring to him going back to where Fart-ther and the others are as what may bring ruin to the world. I mean, he just gave Father his fifth and final sacrifice.

As for Mustang, given the way he spoke, he initially thought that both he and Ed were in some pitch black room, then deduced from the way Ed was talking and manhandling him that Ed could see him, and how could Ed see him when he couldn't see...any...thing...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I'm still trying to figure out if this is based off an actual image or if it's simply something Arakawa made up.

Hmmm,

Lots of things to comment on. Honestly, I have been convinced for a long time that Olivia is going to end up being Fuhrer over Mustang, and this chapter in my opinion confirms a lot of my suspicions. I just cannot express how cruel it was when Roy realized he was blind. It might seem easy compared to the others, his hands might have worked, but for a man with such a vision it is so fitting. He never valued his hands as much as he valued his dreams coming true and seeing how intense his eyes are throughout the whole Manga he just is going to seem so helpless at first I think.

I am very excited to see how Ed, Al, Mustang, Izumi, Hohenheim, Father, and May duke it out. However, I'm probably even more excited to see scar and Wrath. Wrath looked ultimate badass in this chapter.

Although now I am perplexed by so many questions about the truth from this chapter. The biggest question on my mind, however, is can the gate be accessed without Amestrian alchemy? And if not, how does this all relate back to Father and the homonculus. I wonder if Rentanjutsu can be used to view the truth. The whole interaction wtih Mustang and blinding him makes me really doubt that the truth is just. Truth sounds cruel as can be at this point after witnessing that, unless the homunculus really have managed to trick it. Lots of interesting questions, can't wait until next month!

Like you say, I don't think that Mustang can pull out a Toph First, he's not badass enough, and second, the rules of the two universes are completely different



I don't know, Olivia is presented as an enemy of the state, while Mustang is still the savior of miss Bradley and the man who uncovered the conspiracy of the higher-up of the army. Grumman might be the one to gain the seat after all, saving the government and probably arranging for his "accomplices" Mustang and Armstrong to get away without putting his new status in jeopardy.

Wrath always look badass, weither when he's kicking butt or about to being butt-kicked but knowing it and not intending to go without a last fight. And to answer to someone, I think Wrath just wants to have fun right now, a final battle against an extremely skilled opponent, he doesn't care about Father anymore.

I've been wondering for the last few chapers...where the hell are Dr. Marcoh, Yoki and the other chimera? Still on their way?

I wonder if they'll have any part in what's going on below either or show up to see the aftermath.

Same goes for Olivier and crew actually. I wonder if they'll have a part to play still or just show up at the end. They've already had their fight against Sloth.

Greed has a big question mark hanging over him too. He seems to have plans, perhaps taking whatever Father's goal is from him. Will be break into the battle at its climax?

So much could go down in the next chapters. There's so many possibilities.

But yeah, great chapter. Mustang going blind was something I'd always suspected could happen if he opened the gate, either that or him losing his hands. I'm glad Al turned down his body for now too, there's no way he can get that back until the very end of the story, assuming he does. It'd be an anticlimax otherwise.

Ok. I have some thoughts on how Pride "forced" Roy to do the transmutation. Pride may have activated the circle, and Bradley was the one to pin Roy down, but Roy was the only one in contact with the circle. Pride only touched it by his shadow, and Bradley stepped out of the circle before it activated. Amestrian alchemy only affects what the circle touches. And alchemy must ALWAYS take a payment. Roy was the only thing available.
Now, you might be thinking "Wait, Goldtooth didn't touch the circle." But if you remember, Goldtooth wasn't proper payment, as shown by the fact that the gate didn't take him. Instead he became that multi-headed blob we see now.
Basically, the way I see it, Pride's stone was used to open the gate, which is why he is disentegrating. Goldtooth was not proper payment, and so he merged with souls from Pride's stone to become the blob he is today, and Roy was sent to the gate because he was the only thing touching the circle.

Pretty clear that they brought in May to finally use that Alchemy/Alkhestry combination transmutation circle. Which is awesome because May should have some time to shine as well.

Everything else has already been commented on as well. And indeed, Ch. 102 was AWESOME. Full Metal Alchemist Continues to kick a**.

I don't understand why there's so much debate over how Pride was able to force Mustang into opening the gate, seeings as it's not without precedent that this can be done. Hohenheim didn't even realise what was happening to him and yet he still managed to see the gate didn't he? If this was the first time it ever came up, I'd understand but now it's just like 'he just did what Father did to Hohenheim'.

I assume that as has been said he enter such as Hoho did, without knowing or wanting... and it's mroe logical for Roy who "has given blood to the circle" than for Hoho who was just standing there :/ - if I'm not worng....


I don't know if anyone thinks as I would explain in the following lines or if it has already been said but:

when Father starts his "explanation about the truth" , and especially in his last lines "... that is what you humans revered as your god 'the truth' " ... I have the weird feeling like he is giving somehow a "sermon"...I don't know but i feel that he wants them to be angry with Truth so he -wasn't Father itself wanting the be a new god?- will promise them something to calm their sorrow, put them by his side...or is he just wanting them to feel bad? (wasn't Envy wantong them to fight one aginst other before, so why not now won't father want them to be angry and destroy thr truth)
All the idea closes fine if after all to "change of god" he needs sacrifices -which are powerful ones, have seen the actual god, have sacrificed something in exchange of it- , and those sicrifices have to "pray" to the new "god" aka Father -remember Ling saying "" how weird that alchemist look like praying while doing alchemy""-
O.o (sorry I don't know much about religion but in general lines it feels very fitting)

I wasnt surprised roy was forced to open the gate, however im disapointed that we didnt get to have a roy truth dialoge.

however i can under stand why akawana chose not to it would of been an extreme change of pace and unnecesarry.

I belive Roy will be able to see at the end of FMA if Ed and Al can get there bodies back, then by extention roy can get his sight back.

and every post has black bars. its kinda funny.

weel, it may be posible .... as many of you are saying , especially because Arakawa said once that the equivalant exchange theory was going to be broken, didn't she?
but I don't want to bet for it 'cause yet we don't know how or for who it will be "broken" :/


Of course if Ed gets his limbs back, Izumy should be at least be able to livee~~ a normal life -talking about time of life/age- and Roy able to see. But in my personal opinion Al somehow a "different case", or at least for me he is portrayed differently...so Al getting his bad back isn't a guaranty for the other characters...

I think like paca, that Alphonse is a special case because his whole body was taken. Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody but him was allowed to take back what the Truth took as a payment for going through the gate.

Another thing I thought about : if the Truth willingly gave back what they've lost, do you think it will take back what she gave in exchange, namely the intuitive knowledge that enables to transmute without a circle?

I'm a bit late I suppose, but I just thought I'd post and say that this chapter was amazing.

I didn't think I could possibly love Arakawa more than I did already.... and then she pulled out this chapter and proved me wrong. Almost everything about it was absolutely perfect. My favorite part, though, would probably have to be between Father's speech about the Truth and Alphonse rejecting his body. I thought that both of these scenes were very well done. I was blown away when Roy (who is my second favorite character) went blind--and not really in a bad way. I thought it was an amazing twist to the plot and to me, it will make him all that much more interesting a character in the long run.

Did I miss any good conjectures about what's going on with Pride? I'm really curious....

I can't wait for the next chapter! Why must Arakawa do this to us????

What I've been wondering is what it takes for someone to be able to see truth.

I mean when Ed, Ling and Envy were stuck in Gluttony's stomach Ed performed "human transutation" to pass through the gate and escape. However what I don't understand is why he didn't see Truth again after entering the gate. Envy provided the materials to be transmuted and Ed technically broke the tabboo (again) and yet instead of confronting Truth again and paying a passage fee (again) he was instead taken to Al's gate.

Adding to the confusion is the fact that both Envy and Ling were able to jump through the portal and emerge enscathed. Now as shown in chapter 102, Homunculus are able to pass throught the gate, though whether or not they are weakened in the process has not been elaborated upon. However Ling also passed through without any side effects which makes me wonder just what qualifications are needed to see Truth.

I'm guessing that it's only those who actually perform the transmutation can meet Truth, explaining why Ling, Pride and Envy were unaffected. This still leaves the question as to why Ed wasn't forced to pay a third "passage fee" for being taken to the gate (again). After all, Truth has shown to indiscriminate as to whether the alchemist was intentionally seeking out the knowledge from the Gate (Ed and Al's first transmutation and Mustang).

^He used Envy... oh no wait, that was for the 'material' right?

Do you think Father may force Mei to open the gate if Al doesn't return to his body in time? He was looking at her weirdly at some point.

Sorry if this point has been covered allready.

It seems father only needs the soul...


Edit: Scratch that, I just reread the end of the chapter again.

Well, Mustang didn't perform the transmutation, Pride did using Goldtooth and/or Kimblee's knowledge. Mustang was transmuted. Al didn't see the gate a second time when his soul was transmuted into armor. Ed didn't see the gate when he transmuted himself to avoid dying when he was impaled. It seems odd that Mustang would see it in this case.

On the same subject, Marcoh performed lots of human transmutation to make philosopher stones. How come he never saw Truth (and possibly, didn't see the gate)?

Actually, Envy was used as the sacrifice : by using his philosopher's stone, Ed was able to go through the Gate without paying a fee. The human material transmuted was Ed himself.

Well, I don't think he actually done the transmutation himself, it isn't really clarified here: http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/59/02/
All you see is the transmutation circle with the sacrifices and March looking shocked/appaled etc. He was held for being a 'cadidate' not a 'confirmed' human sacrifice, if I remember correctly...

Marcoh didn't perform human transmutation. Human transmutation is an act when you try to create/recreate a person, be it your mother, child or yourself. It can be done on dead or living people. What Marcoh did was creating Philosopher's stone out of living subjects - he didn't break any taboo by that, he "only" went against moral principles. He's a skilled alchemist though and just as in Roy's case The Evil League of Evil kept him because they were 98% sure he's able and skilled enough to get through the gate alive.

I think you're right. Marcoh didn't perform any human transmutation. And I think the reason Ed didn't see the gate a third time when he transported himself out of Gluttony was because he himself was also the material. As far as we know, the material, the thing being transmuted, doesn't see Truth. So I don't think Ed or Marcoh make good comparisons to Mustang and Hoho.

However, I noticed that in the only two cases in the series where someone saw Truth without actively attempting human transmutation...Father was involved. We saw that Father can open the gate at will and suck people in when he transported Ed and Izumi to his lair. Maybe if Father is involved in the transmutation as he was with Hoho and Mustang, he can decide to send people to the Truth or to let them pass through without payment.

I think that human transmutation is when you try to modify living people or bring people back to life. Like what Ed and Al did, and what Ed did to get out of Glutonny (but he didn't have to pay anything that time since he paid with Envy's stone). But Marcoh didn't modify things, he just took humans and separated their souls from their body. No break of the Equivalent Exchange, no tentative to get closer to God.

But then I don't know where to put human chimeras creation into this... King Bradley is also a definite tentative for the creation of a super-human through elchemy, so I don't know...

I have a tendancy to believe that Arakawa never defined quite clearly the rules of alchemy to dodge those issues, and not make anything completely incoherent with what was shown before. For example, in Roy's case, we never knew someone could be forced to perform a transmutation, it even seems completely contradictory to everything we've seen so far. But she kept the basics right, and made the whole thing work with Pride, who is so weird that everything he does doesn't seem too out of place. She just won't explain how it happened because it would ba a lot of efforts for a big chance to screw her work up.

I had a thought earlier. What if Father's wrong, and the gate didn't actually take Roy's eyesight? He's just temporarily blind from everything he saw in there, and then they find out that it stole his kidney or something.

I know it's unlikely, but she does like to surprise us...

Intersting idea...I've never thought of Arakawa as the type to ignore contradictions in her own story...maybe Roy is faking! What if he is just pretending to be blind? But the fact that his eyes were drawn without pupls means he probably isn't. And his facial expressions are so pitiful...aww poor Roy..

Then he'd be like:

Nah, I didn't mean like he's faking it. Like, he's just been through so much and what she saw in the Gate was so intense that his eyes have shut off for awhile. Like, only example I can think of, Nunnly in Code Geass. There wasn't anything physically wrong with her eyes, but she went blind just from trauma.

It's mostly wishful thinking, but I like to hope there's some kind of chance that he'll be able to see again. I'm not hoping for perfect vision, but just some sort of eyesight. It makes me really sad when I think that he'll never be able to see the people he cares about again.

Hyper--I thought of that right after I hit the submit button.

If I ever meet Hiromu Arakawa, I swear here and now the first thing I'll do is show her Charlie the Unicorn.

[removed]

About Mustang, I am right now at a point where I am just so conflicted on my feelings of the matter that I am just going to wait and see what Arakawa comes out with and not speculate because I have no good theories LOL.

Hahahaha!!!! This is the best thing I've seen today.

Which makes me wonder if the gate is the same thing as THE DOOR in Charlie 3..... O___o

*is shot*

I really doubt that Roy is temporarily blind though. Ed wasn't blinded by what he saw in the gate, was he? So I don't think that this could be the case. Faking it is slightly more possible, but I really doubt that too. The way he was drawn--without pupils and so clearly distraught-- makes me sure that he is permanently blind.

I think it would be a cop out to have Roy fake being blind. He was drawn without pupils and the way he was moving around in Father's layer really leads me to believe that he is blind. I am still indifferent to him being blind. I just am going to try to sit back and wait for next month's chapter to see what will happen.

LOL at the Charlie the Unicorn picture!

I am also indifferent to Roy being blind. It's very sad, yes, and it's unfair because he did not choose to do a human transmutation.
But I have faith in Arakawa! She won't let us down! I just hope no one too awesome dies...
Charlie the Unicorn FTW!

But this thread has been declared a "spoiler party," no? The only people reading this thread should be those who have read the chapter or wished to be spoiled, correct?

True true. I still try to do it anyways just to avoid people kicking my butt.
But, yeah... w/e. By all means, let's spoil away!
Roy is blind now!! I feel so empowered.

OT: Wait, what's up with that "Project Meteor Part 1" thing? A drama CD?

<Program Note>


Yes, it is an FMA drama CD that is a bonus gift for the next issue of Young GanGan mag, and I moved the posts with that discussion here.

----------------------------

And, about the Spoiler Party threads on our board:
We use this distinction for mostly talk-back/content discussion threads for manga chapters and TV show episodes, and once the thread is declared as a spoiler-tag free "Spoiler Party" thread, except the first post of the thread, the posters no longer need to use spoiler tags while discussing the contents of that episode/chapter. But, those threads should be clearly marked as such on the thread title and/or on the first post of the thread, and until/before the thread becoming declared as a Spoiler Party thread, please play safe and use the spoiler tags. ^^

My thoughts as I was reading the chapter:

"OH GOSH what are they going to-- ew what is that thing? ...get him GET HIM SCAR-- GATE oh noes. ...is he okay? is he-- he has all his limbs what is he missing OH GOSH THE EYES THAT IS NOT JUST FOR EFFECT. (internal screaming)
...
...
Al, you sweet, selfless, idiot... why do you have to be RIGHT?
...
GET HIM SCAR!"

...then spent the next few minutes using all my energy to keep from screaming and shaking the school computer.

Good Lord, he's blind. While I didn't think Roy'd lose anything so utterly crippling, I was probably being overly optimistic.
There hasn't been much mention of how useless this makes him in the current situation, I've noticed. Seems to me that his chances of survival have just dropped exponentially (though I really hope Arakawa will decide she's done enough to the poor guy...); functionally, he can't use his alchemy because it completely relies on knowing where things are. If everyone starts fighting, he's screwed (well, more so than already.)

Al, oh, Al... Did anyone think the "despair" quote might imply that presuming everyone makes it through this encounter with Father and Al tries to go back for his body, he'll find that he's unable to? Worries me some.

As for the looming showdown with Father, I'm betting Hohenheim will attempt some sort of body-jacking. Which he may or may not survive. Any theories on how that's going to go?

i dont think that what's Al's body ment he wouldnt be able to return to his original body if he left it there. My theory is that if Al accepted his body right then an there Al would die and go through the gate. Al's body knows whats going on and i dont think he wanted him to return back to the real world but let al's soul return anyway because it was the most noble and selfless thing al could do. notice that father says "Al does not seem to be with us," his armor is there but his soul is not. With Al's soul at the gate it seems to be implied that al can not be used as a sacrifice stoping father's plan in its tracks.

It will bring you nothing but despair. along that line is what the body says. perhaps because al is returning all five of the sacrifices will be gathered. if al reunites with his body at the gate he will die leaving father permanently 1 sacrifice short. and i do not think there is the time or the matterials needed to force another to open the gate.

and poor roy i hope the las thing he saw was riza. and i think if youve read this far into the thread your pretty spoiled out already

I think Marcoh does know the truth because they were holding him captive and Envy told him that he was an important sacrifice. Seeing that the requirements for being a sacrifice was seeing the truth I thought there was a possibility that Marcoh would show up in this chapter clueless to the fact that the homunculus were seeking sacrifices at that moment and once he arrived the homunculus would be ditch their plans of trying to get Roy to transmute and instead use Marcoh, but this chapter has shown that my prediction was wrong

I am wondering how Mei was able to break into Father's lair, but Riza and the chimeras weren't. Were they not behind Mei, heading in the same direction?

I'm wondering the same thing. I thought I had missed something...

They are following, but let's not forget their ratio is four persons, two of them wounded (Riza and slime chimera - sorry, forgot his name). They have to move more carefully.

I suspect that Riza and the chimeras are moving a lot more slowly because two of them are injured and the other two pretty much need to carry them, and climbing down through all those broken floors while having to carry an injured person takes more time. Mei wasn't carrying anyone (she's too tiny anyway), so she made it there faster.

Pride does seem to be suffering some ill effects; maybe he went through as well? Also, transmuting a dead person isn't the only thing that shows you the Gate; Ed saw it when he transmuted his way out of the Gluttony-gate-dimension. Maybe being transmuted from Point A to Point B will also do it? That could be what they did to Roy. Though when Ed did that, he didn't have to pay another toll. Hmmm... (Also, Envy and Ling went through then, without any ill effects, but they're not alchemists.)

As for Marcoh, perhaps there are more requirements for the sacrifices than just having seen the Truth? It's probably not an attempted resurrection, since Hohenheim never did that, but there may be other factors that Father's not mentioning. After all, there may be a few more alchemists who have seen the Truth out there that we haven't heard of... maybe it's a power level thing? I get the impression that Marcoh doesn't have quite the same amount of power as the sacrifices. But I am rambling...



I think they're on their way down; we just haven't seen them get there yet. Mei just jumped down on her own; the chimeras are probably being a bit more careful.

Wait. You mean while they were in Gluttony, right?
They paid with Envy's stored-energy-souls. And when Ed was terribly wounded, he paid with his energy. Didn't he said something like "blabla some life energy blabla some years of my life"?