I really don't think it does apply to the world.If you think of someone who lives around the streets (as in hoods) they're struggling to make a living(don't yell at me about school now they might not have enough money for it)while some rich kid is living a life without worries.It probably will,but I still don't believe it.

I guess that I agree with all the pondering about meaning, but a path to understanding is to understand means. By understanding the mechanisms involved with operation of the gate, you get an idea of the intentions of the gate. If the gate has some malevolent intelligence guiding it then there is "gain and loss". For you gain something from the knowledge in the gate then a painful loss my be imparted. Perhaps this painful malevolence is the total of the hatred of the souls contained in the gate? Again, was this a device designed to capture energy and was used to capture "bad" energy? Does the Gate care. If the energy contained in the gate was "good" energy could then also be used with bad intent? You, see. If we can get a better handle on what it is, not what it costs to use it, we might understand what we should label the gate; good or evil.

As far as religion is concerned, there's always a temple, there's always a corrupt religious order, and there's always a congregation willing to choose faith over pragmatism. Don't get me wrong, that's fine. I'm just not signing up for that program.

About the "beautiful people" gift, I'd like to say a few things.

Sometimes appearance defines who we are, because we are the summation of the collective attitudes of those who judge us. "Call a man a thief and he will steal," as the old adage goes. Sometimes some people just have the luxury of standing on the moral high ground. This is why interviews can make or break your chances in a professional setting. This is why my friend can get hit by some blondes in a car making a left turn on red in plain sight of a police officer. It was the fault of my friend of course, for not being more careful, or for jaywalking or some nonsense.

Appearing to be a "good 'ol boy" being beautiful or seeming to be intelligent can do a great deal many of things. Which layman would not be intimidated by the "expert" opinion? Who gets the attention of the teachers at a high school? Who gets awarded on physical appearance?

This is why charisma originates from the Greek word, kharisma, "gift of the gods." Because fate gives them the chance to sway the collective opinions of a whole people, who define the ethics of everyone who is bound inextricably to their society. One could say they were fated to have these things, for better of worse. In any case, they get the chance to define the truth that everybody accepts, and in the end, that has a great impact.

Thereby, a Hero is a dream and vision of a people that runs of it's own momentum. A monster is the thing that can be loathed and feared because it is the inverse of the hero. The monster may not necessarily have any less depth or character than the hero, but he is an unknown thing, its ideas and words ignored or hated and forgotten by those who only want their beliefs affirmed by the existence of a hero. Both can be worshipped in its own way. Some wish they could be monster, a thing not somehow bound to the will of others, capable of seizing and deciding its own fate. Many worship a hero in what becomes a cult of personality, and he represents the truth of a people, as memory and belief so often dictates.

If you happen to be watching Ghost in the Shell II: SAC, then you can see this symmetry in Kazundo Gouda and Hideo Kuze. What's most interesting is how Gouda has accepted himself as a monster, a thing necessary in the creation of someone like Kuze. He desired to be accepted and praised by his peers, but with maturity, no longer desired it. He is intelligent, manipulative and devious; and is completely at peace with this. Even if he should die unmourned and forgotten, he is completely accepting of this.

I also find it droll that some people spend their lives searching for something that is plainly under their nose. Like the Philosopher's Stone, it can be found anywhere if one is only wise enough to grasp it. It is for this reason that pre-arranged marriages can work better than dating can. Some people never really know what they want, and of course, they wander like idiots, chasing a dream and expecting something to simply be given to them by another, ignoring all the opportunities that sit in plain sight. I resent this, as people drag down and use heros in this regard, spending them and discarding them when convenient.

Hyleaus:Take another case point: Those who look pretty, time and time again get off in court. If anyone dares to contest that, I defy you to sit in on a trial. I spent a few years on a mock-trial team and the judges don't lie about their being distracted by presentation over logic. It's sad, but juries are worse. If I were ever to give advice worthy of heeding it would be this: NEVER GET ARRESTED. You will probably get convicted because of gullible juries.

I have to totally disagree with that point, I have sat in on many trials, and this simply is not the case. The fact that the cases you have seen are "mock" and not real may be the primary factor. In fact, the opposite many times seems to be true. Of course, the trials I have sat in on are at the Circuit level, not the District (state level circuit and district courts, not federal). It could be the case, perhaps, for more minor offenses.

Now, on to the actual topic: A study of history (especially war, those great and terrible events that are the most extreme human interactions that bring about the most extreme individual actions-both good and bad, self serving and self sacrificing, noble and horrible, inspiring and revolting-in the individual) tells us that equivalent exchange simply does not exist form a purely human perspective.

However, if you want to view the question from a purely cynical, or "distant" perspecive, it is debatable.

Now, having said all of that, I have to point out this is my opinion[i]. You see, IMO there is no real set answer to the question, the answer is totally dependant on the individuals life view.

Philosopher's stone: I absolutely agree with your point about beautiful people being favored unjustly. But IMO, material success is not all there is to human existence. It's been said that everyone is either a Platonist or an Aristotolian. Aristotle believed the truth was to be found in what the senses percieved, while Plato believed the material world was merely a shadow or reflection of something far greater. Personaly, I am a Platonist. Imprfect, temporary things like good looks and money can only bring about imperfect, temporary, "quick fix" gain. Thus, the beautiful person, through his minimal effort, has achieved minimal gain, when viewed in the grand scheme of things. True gain is achieved in contemplating the more vast, eternal aspects of reality.

Strong_arm1: I agree, this is a question without an answer, simply beyond the scope of an imperfect human brain's comprehension. But hey, it's fun to ponder anyway...

I think you're missing the focus of what I'm saying. I was exploring charisma and the myth of the hero, the villain and the monster. (I love the anime/manga "Monster" by the way, it's refreshing in that it doesn't follow usual anime conventions.)

I was saying that some people are seen as "gifted by the gods." Charisma comes in more shapes and forms than in just beauty. Intellectual charisma, for example, is the sort that intimidates people, insinuating ideas and beliefs into people, even if they adamantly refuse it consciously, such strength of character shakes their convictions to the core. In any case, I wanted to point out how "charisma" was often viewed in the context of religion and spirituality: "those favored by the gods." Sort of singled out by fate, eh?

This means that people who are heroes are worshipped: since people want a definate "truth" given to them. This symmetry is seen within Christians and modern Satanists as well as the fictional Jedi and Sith. When a hero becomes a martyr, he becomes more than the some of his real llife: he becomes public property and the life of the hero becomes a legend, for all intents and purposes, the "truth." What then is a monster or villian when you revile because you want to trivialize it?

If you can forget the academic historical fact of what a hero is and replace it with a legend, what then happens to the guy on the opposite end of the spectrum? Is a villain always necessarily lacking in legitimate motive and character? For all you care: yes, because you don't care to ponder whether or not they were ever fully human to begin with.

I must say that however, I sometimes resent such "desecrations" of character and such fawning desire for some arbitrary truth. You see this in how people only want to constantly affirm one another. Often a hero gives that affirmation, which leads to hero-worship. Sometimes people villainize things for just this reason, making a caricature of a person, idea or group to justify their own beliefs. This is neither good or bad, at least in the way I am viewing things, but it definately defines the human experience.

But I see that you're fixating on good character. If then, the dumb blonde is fated to never develop any maturity, then does the loser who does maturity have it given to him by fate? I think questions of predestination, fate and other such related tjomgs as irrelevant, and it's unfair to crassly hate abstract people. Whether fate is real or not, is not important to me, since you don't get to decide whether or not you have "free will." This is why fate is such a difficult question, because it is a paradox: like God, Tao or some similar concept; it just wasn't meant to be understood, at least, not in cognitive logical way. Words like "fate" are just symbols for things that nobody can even can agree on.

Some anime I choosingly watch as a TV series instead of downloading due to the fact that II simply need *something* to watch on TV. That being said I just recently watched the last 6 episodes of Fullmetal alchemist in succession after downloading them and I must say I have something to say about the whole credo that the law of equal exchange is incomplete and does not exist. I realized the obvious faults in her argument and wanted to voice the immediately. And knowing that you guys are probably the only ones who care, I came here.

With that being said I suppose this whole thread is a spoiler in a way to all those who have not completely watched the whole series in its entirety. This is because it contests the totality of the last conceptual theme expressed as a whole.

The old yet sagacious less Dante said that their is no law of equal exchange and gave the following outlined examples.

1.) Some people succeeded and failed thus there is no law.
2.) If I killed a baby right now what would be the exchange in that.
3.) Life is not fair.

These arguments were extremely flimsy and I wish to conclude to you all that there is indeed a law of equal exchange that is neither “incomplete” nor broken, and explain to you the faults of the Dante’s argument. No wonder even though she was damned immortal she couldn’t' create a stone and Hoenheim didn't love her, she was damned stupid kn3wb. Once a kn3 wb always a kn3wb. If you train a kn3wb he just ecomes a trained kn3wb. And apparently, if a kn3wb lives forever hes just an immortal kn3wb.

The law of equal exchange states, according to the show states. (To obtain, something of equal value must be lost). First off when a law is created in a science it applies to that science only. Applying it to outside situations such as life and death are mute points. Sometimes a law simply has nothing to do with certain laws. Like in the example the Dante gave about killing the baby asking where is the equal exchange in that? But one must ask what was the baby giving up, and what was he trying to obtain? The baby was doing nothing thus it does not mean the law is not real, it means it simply does not apply to that situational scenario.

The only way the law of equal exchange could not be true is if a regular alchemist could create something without giving it away. But they can'T. They constantly have to give something away to obtain something. ThIs Is a valid principle that is true. Even the philosopher’s stone wears up over time. That is because it does not make the law no longer apply but because its vast amounts of power serves as what is being paid for the exchange. Thus it serves more as a supreme source of power more than anything else.

Dante also gave an example of when Elric took the exam to become a state alchemist. Saying that all the other people trained harder and longer than the fullmetal alchemist did yet he got the job because of natural talent. I knew the b*tch crazy but not stupid. I pondered how somebody could spend hundreds of years and yet still not be able to create a philosophers stone on their own. Now I understand. Even though I have already established that the law of equal exchange should be stayed inside alchemy, let me explain how it applies anyway. First off this argument is based on the assumption that what is being obtained is the job of state alchemist. When the people who trained put in time and effort they obtained an equal amount of skill. The amount of skill and they gained over time being a variable of their innate abilities in an equation of course, but when balanced they obtained what `they put in. Skill was what was obtained from putting something in not the desired results of victory. Victory and the acquisition of the job of state alchemist are dictated by how much skill you have. This does not apply to the law of equal exchange.

In most matters where simply putting something in to get something out the law of equal exchange stays valid. But in human affairs where simply the exchange of energies is not enough to receive a complex result that depends on many factors the law of equal exchange does not apply due to the fact that to many variables exist within it. One could give an example with people saying that they put in lots and time and energy in raising their kids and they got nothing out of it. That is incorrect. They may have gotten an undesired result, but the child did receive something out of it. Furthermore their are far too many variables of what needs to be put in to receive a desired results. Furth more you have to account for what others time energy and thoughts that others put into her. After accounting everything you will realize that defining the law of equal exchanges relation to this situational scenario is to complex of a procedure and that other laws that govern our reality apply to this situation as well.

Then their is the subject of the energies used to create the exchange within alchemy. Even if human energy, devil energy, or even semen fucking energy is used to power the transmutation the law of equal exchange stays valid. This is because the energy used to power the transformation is not related to materials needed to make the transformation occur. Furthermore if someone tries to prove that statement false the fact still remains that even with that element of the energy known or unknown by people t hey still had to give something up of equal value to obtain something.

The point she made was not that the law of equal exchange does not exist, but it does not apply to all situational scenarios. And this is true. But it does indeed exist and it is indeed valid and complete law. The examples she gave was incomplete. Furthermore the fact remains that if the law didn't exist then alchemists would be able to make without sacrifice. And that has not been done. For although with the philosophers tone you don’t' have to sacrifice other materials, it has been proven in the shows context that the stone itself is paying that cost. The law of equal exchange may not be a concept that fully explains reality but nor is the law of gravity. The law explains exactly what it is meant to explain with the pin-point accuracy of simplicity.

____________________

Well the only reason I signed up for this forum was to express these ideas to you. I too often time watch an anime or show, and have a deep observation that I would like to share with someone, but nobody is around who cares. In this situation I realized that there were forums and serious otaku's that existed for this show. Being the fullmetal alchemist connoisseur I'm sure you'll have your own thoughts and opinions to add, or to contest my argument. So I guess I’ll come back regularly to see what’s posted.

P.S. I typed "fullmetal" as one word just cause thoe TOS said so. Even thuogh the regular phrase "full metal" is not a complete word when applyign it to the title "fullmetal alchemists" it becomes one. THis is because these words take on new meaning to describe aname and a show thus the grammer of the wrods do also.

______________________

journey2genius.blogspot.com

You have a strong argument. In a sense, I agree.

Oh, and the "immortal girl who's name escapes you"'s name is Dante. And "dude" is Hoenheim.(sp)

Thanks, I'll replace the pronousn with the proper nouns shortly.

Oh, okay^^ It's really no big deal. I knew who you were talking about, I just thought I'd be nice if you had the names to match the faces XD

@JustOwnin - Welcome to our board!! Nice to have you with us!!
Wow, thoughtful post!!

http://www.fullmetal-alchemist.com/forums/...?showtopic=8998

http://www.fullmetal-alchemist.com/forums/...?showtopic=8998

I agree...if the law did not exist alchemy would be magic instead...magic can create a flower...but magic is not real...you are simply replacing one object with another hidden object...whereas alchemy can breakdown an object and make it into another one...alchemy is a possibility, we just haven't figured it out yet.

You've got good points, but I think the Elrics were thinking of the law of Equivalent Exchange as being universal, meaning encompassing everything about life. And if that law doesn't actually apply to social situations and stuff it can't really be called a universal "law." It certainly applies to alchemy, but look at it this way: The Elrics beleived the law applied to everything in life. Dante beleived it applied to nothing. They were both wrong! Just my opinion.

I agree. Tho, I can understand Elrics believing in the equivalant exchange as if that were the guiding principle of life at the time, them having been young and all...

I only came here to post this and probably wont be a mebmer of the community not out of disrespect but out of not having time. So I request that this thread be used to discuss this point for I don't have time to go running from thread to thread.



Indeed this is true. At least the elric's were partially right children, while dante was a completely wrong immortal. She brings disgrace to immortals everywhere. I hate it when we are depicted as powerful yet knowledgeless fools who can be defeated by mere talented children, but that's another issue.

i stasted that the law of equivalent exchange applies only to alchemy. Although when applied to life it is incorrect, it does give children something to believe in. Some moral code to live by in chaos. I'd rather have someone bleieve and empowering lie, and gain strength of character before revealing to them a resolve destroying confidence depleting truth. kinda like how you don't tell an adopted kid he's adopted until he's old and strong enough for the info.

And no question about it, although lacking in some areas the fulmetal alchemist had matured a great deal because of it.

Merged with thread titled "The Law of Equal Exchange".

Whoa, somebody really cared about not having two threads speaking on the same thing to an extent that they'd pm mods to do it. *shrugs* Whatever, didn't realize how big of a deal it was. I suppose as long as it exists and all.

I agree with you i think that alchemy could exist in the real world we just have not figuerd it out yet.

alchemy does exist in this world. just not in the incarnation that this show puts it in. alchemy in this show was the reconstruction of atoms to create new things. real life alchemy science is a bit different.

I know a bit of alchemy myself and in a few books I've read they do talk about an equivilent exchange. I'm still learning but I think it applies to every day life!

@ Lucario Wolf

Umm... Alchemy doesn't exist in our world and the closest thing there is to alchemy is chemistry.

I think equivelant exchange completely exists, and I also think those that do not comply to this equivelant exchange gets something taken away in some form or another.

First example is easy, a Store! You buy stuff and give the money of equivelant Value. Now next step up, if you are a criminal and go shoot someone, you goto jail for a certain amount of time, whether that is equivelant to killing someone or not, they still have to deal with the guilt of killing someone. Now if the Killer is some sick psycho and doesn't feel for the people he kills and does not care at all, then I believe what he traded is pretty much his soul.

Now if you want to take it to politics, I say yes to that also! Bush for example lied and made people think iraq had weapons of mass destruction, He sent soldiers there. What he got? nothing! There could be a few exchanges he did here. First he made everyone believe there were weapons, sent people in, and when he couldn't hide it any longer he had to admit he was wrong and lost his approval rating(once again whether that is equivelant or not)...

Also there is no defined equivelance or not, it depends on the person!
Someone that steals and goes to jail for 1 week, that could be like the worst time of their life and that could be equivelant to them, while others its not. It all depends on the persons personality and what they get for exchange.

Like about the approval ratings, we may not think that its a big deal to lose approval ratings as an exchange, but to Bush, it could be like the worst thing in the world to him, therefore for him its the equivelant exchange.

Thats what I think anyways

i totally believe in equivlant exchange. I believe that you always get something in return, though if it is something that you do not want it is not counted as something, i saw this explained in one of the fma epi's 'hoinhiem of light' hoinhiem was explaing this to Al.

Totally agree with @VincentProxy

I have to agree with the above two posts. LOL i started writing my own full blown response to this, posted it and then realized that all my points had already been made so i had scrap that, I dont wanna be redundant.

I do think that equivilent exchange applies in real life, cause you could be giving, yet have every bad thing happen to you. You could be a selfish person and not care for the person next to you and get everything. Yet the person with the bad life but is nice and giving well be happier than the person who has everything and a jerk

I guess equivalent exchange does appears in real life....like... you done something bad,and THEN you HIDE your badness so that people don't know.Lastly, your badness will be revealed by itself.But when you do good things, you will get it,only that you must wait or be patience .Then it will come.So..equivalent exchange does appear as a rule of nature.

sometime is does appear, but not all the ways Just like Dante said in anime. I meant, check the news. So many people die. Remember what happened in Thailand in 2004? What kind of equivalent exchange would that suppose to be that has to get so many killed?

I believe in Equivalent Exchange; it is my philosophy.
One exception is if you hold up your side of the equivalence, then it does apply. Because, you can quarantee that if someone gives you something, then you would give something back to that person. However, you cannot guarantee that if you give, you will always get something in return. I like to believe it exists, because equivalent exchange is like trust: if you give it, you get it. As it was stated in FMA, the world isn't perfect. Not even close.
You can believe that when you achieve something, there was some sacrifice that you gave at one point in your life that allowed you to gain that accomplishment later. If you watch TV the night before a test and get a perfect score on the test, you may not think that would be equivalent exchange. But, that act of being lazy would encourage your laziness and would not help you to be productive in the future. The things that you do in the past can help decide the outlook of your future. That is one of the lessons of equivalent exchange: that if you work hard, it will pay off. Maybe not immediately, but eventually, your hard work will pay off one way or another. Yeah.... that's what I think...

In some cases.
Lives taken, car accidents and the such don't amount in something positive and equivilant.
But if you put work into something, you will most likely get back a good result.
Like, if you put time into studying for a test, you'll get a good score.
If you spend your time working out, you'll be fit.
Things such as that.

There is such thing as equivalent exchange (EE). In my opinion, it follows one of two roads. I'm a christian, and I believe in God. With that in mind, if you think about how Dante proved EE wrong, I think I have a theory. In real life, what you do always comes back to bite you in the ass, or reward you. But, sometimes things always don't always work out how WE think they should. Perhaps EE follows a design more intricate and grander than we can imagine. Though we may not know what the hells going on, God does.
Now, even if you don't agree with that, then there's another theory. Nothing's perfect. Everyone can agree that humans are imperfect. And EE was thought up and described by humans, therefore, logically, the law is imperfect - not false.
But, like Ed and Al said, I still choose to believe in its principle, that if you do good, you WILL somehow be rewarded, and if you do bad, you WILL somehow pay - even if we don't quite understand how or why. EE, in its principle, teaches you to always think before you act, and that you should know your every action has an effect.

Now, if you look at it scientically, then again EE is proven to be true. Just read over Newton's three laws - they're all about an indisputable balance of the world.

I'm moving "Equivalent Exchange *contains Spoliers*" thread with 2 pages of posts from FMA anime American Audience sub-forum to FMA anime forum section front, then merging to this thread (Checked the posts continuities, and confirmed that the posts continuity will survive the thread merge.)

ETA: Thread merged.

Equivalent Exchange is not applicable to all fronts of life , infact none , in my eyes.

Its more like a saying , such as - practice makes one perfect !
BUT - no body can be perfect !

Equivalence is not applicable in real world. ( only in chemistry course )

You need to have it in your blood and you need that bit of talent to succeed , hard work is only a medium !

_______________________________________________________________________

Tombow , I think you should move it to the Debate District , it might just make a good one !

Which is why the saying now goes like this: Practice makes perfect, minus the one

There is such law as Equivalent Exchange. But the law is incomplete because the world is indeed imperfect...and thus it doesn't encompass everything. ^.^

Sounds anime but it is true indeed...

Equivalent does not excist u cant get nothing from what u trade of the same value maybe there are some thing that u can trade for the same price

And what is so imperfect in this world that we cant apply a simple law such as Equivalnce , its like Tit for Tat , just put in different words !

Many things if you think it deeply, it is indeed have the same theory...

----
Ain't gonna spam further since this is not a debate district... XD

There are some things that are beyond equivalence. Some things you can get from nothing. And it is from nothing from where all that is came from. Physics and science do not explain everything. There are some things that no one really comprehends and the true profit of the world is lost to ignorance.

^Thats true.

But travisbmoore, what is it that science cant explain ?

Supernaturals...

Lol...I spam..sorry!

While it's certainly a healthy work/goal ethic, I'm afraid the real world tends to run more along Dante's description than Edward's.

Supernatutrals are being explained and they dont remain supernatural after being explained , they become simply - natural !



Yea , thats right , Dante is more intellegent than Ed too so we should listen to her in this matter

Aiya...diula...but supernaturals so far is only explained by words of wisdom...not thru scientific researches...

[STOP!! This is unrelevent to the topic] Aint gonna post futher...

i believe that equivalent change could and could not apply to real life. people cna take to sides.

I think it would depend on the situation.

^ where is equivalencey in that ?

I believe in Equivalent Exchange, but I don't think it applies to everything. After all, I have gotten things that I gave almost no sacrifice for, and there are small things that I've sacrificed a lot for. It really depends on what it is, and who the exchange is corresponding with.

for example a gift

The Equivalent Exchange
We get something in return of what we sacrifice
But the world is never perfect
As a matter, it never can be perfect
Sometimes we gain without sacrifice
Sometimes we only gained a little while we sacrificed a lot
And thus the exchange is never that equivalent