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Full Version: Manga Roy, Anime Roy: FMA-1, Cos Movie, FMA: B, Which Ones Do You Like? (spoiler Alert!)
Fullmetal Alchemist Discussion Board > Fullmetal Alchemist Discussions > FMA Character Discussions
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fmadiva
Just wanted to see everyone's opinion because I feel like Manga Roy and various Anime Roy could be different people. I personally sort of like all (anime-1 Roy a little more....Maybe cause I'm used to him..)I can hardly choose. IMO, all of them have lovable characteristics<3

Also, if you'd like, tell us which one you think looks best. wink.gif *cough*anime-1roy*cough*
alchemistpower
ALL! biggrin.gif >.<
KwiatekAlchemist
I love all happy.gif
Irena
I think I prefer manga Roy, because he seems more relaxed and not all *emoangst* like anime-1 Roy (especially in CoS sleep.gif).

Forsaken Love
manga/brotherhood Roy, anime1 actually made me hate Roy, and it took ages for me to like him again in the manga

He murdered Winry's parents (not that anyone really cared) and I remember a scene where he was making fun of Ed for crying when he lost him limbs, I was like wtf!? you b****** make a habit of bulling traumitized mutilated children do we?
hawkflame
Manga Roy and Brotherhood Roy own Anime1 Roy and COS Roy. Just look at the lust fight in episode 19/ manga vol. 10. That's all you really need.
Thalogens
I love all forms of Roy. Yep. But it was anime1 Roy that I loved first -COS-Roy annoyed me. Manga-Roy beat them all, though, he's too awesome. Brotherhood-Roy is sort of manga-Roy, but with slightly strange animation and NOT ENOUGH DETAIL! Except the last two episodes of him in civilian clothes was brilliant-Roy -almost worthy of manga-Roy...
RoyxRizaFan
Everyone's giving short responses, but I'm going to be that obnoxious person with a strong opinion that is going to get all the lurking flamers to attack tongue.gif

I read the manga first, which factors into it a lot, but I know for sure I wouldn't have cared for anime!Roy's character either way. While I was watching the anime, I was waiting for the Roy I knew and love to start being the loveable dofus he is, but...it never came. I feel like anime1 took the Roy from the first volumes of the manga, where we didn't know anymore about him other than that he wanted to be Fuhrer, and ran with it. He became self-centered, kind of conceited, egotistical, rude, and insensitive. Not that all characters can be nice and righteous. But I felt like he had no feeling whatsoever for the Elric brothers or his subordinates. And NO, I am not referring to RoyAi here, just to let everyone know.

Manga Roy is not the complete opposite of animeRoy, I know - he can still be self-centered and diabolical, but you know that he isn't out only for himself, and that he genuinley cares for everyone around him. There are times when we think he's being an @$$ (like with the Ross thing) but it usually turns out that he's out for the better for everyone. He WANTS to protect everyone - that his goal in life. AnimeRoy was out for revenge and power, and 'repented' for that in a really annoying, obnoxious way in CoS, which I'm not even going to touch upon.

Place animeRoy into a few manga situations. How would he have reacted about the Ross incident? Would he have stuck out her neck for her? Would he have stopped killing Envy if someone told him to? Would Goldtooth have used Riza as his weakness??? (I'm not talking about romance)

Not to mention how funny mangaRoy can be when he's useless, or just being a moron in general. All those goofy moments like when he was doing the different voices sending false reports about Scar, growing mushrooms when he was called 'useless', or any of the silly banter he has with characters like Riza or Olivia have happened if it had been anime1Roy? AnimeRoy was even serious during the humor episode, when they were looking for the haunted room and burying bones and all that nonsense!

AnimeRoy is a different character than mangaRoy. I think we can all agree on that. I prefer mangaRoy, but I doubt I'd have as much of a problem with animeRoy if it weren't for fans who ONLY know him as being like that.

OH YEAH AND SHIRTLESS ROY IN VOLUME 10. Just throwing that out there biggrin.gif

(don't throw any tomatoes or torches, plz xP I mean well)
Claudius
QUOTE (Forsaken Love @ Nov 17 2009, 12:15 AM) *
He murdered Winry's parents (not that anyone really cared) and I remember a scene where he was making fun of Ed for crying when he lost him limbs, I was like wtf!? you b****** make a habit of bulling traumitized mutilated children do we?
And yet you think what MangaIshvalRoy did in the war was so much better? If Kimbley wasn't around, guess who would have done the job? And Roy would have definitely done such a thing (Only this time, I think he would have roasted the Rockbells instead of shooting them).
As for Roy's joke, that was harmless better, and let us not forget Edward was now a State Alchemist, therefore an adult to be treated as such.


Once again I in the minority choose Anime1Roy. He is simply Roy without the 'Get Out of Jail Free' cards his manga counterpart has. He has the common sense NOT to disclose the 'Bradley is a Homunculus' knowledge to some stranger (Then again, MangaRoy had the advantage of being a pawn so he got off easy. If Anime1Roy tried the blackmail scheme, Bradley-Pride would have his head flying). He does deserve some sympathy, considering the bind he was in. True, he threw away his ideals for revenge for his best friend (as if MangaRoy treated the revelation of Envy's actions in a calmer manner...), but he was in a no-win situation: Another massacre was coming up, and he was the only one capable of stopping it by stopping the one responsible (Anime1Riza probably knew this, which is why she didn't stop him). In the end, he got out of the situation maimed emotionally and physically, with the loss of an eye (whereas MangaRoy got a couple of stab wounds. Big deal...). The CoSRoy, IMO, was the logical conclusion. And for those who weren't happy about EmoRoy, isn't MangaRoy's planned ending for himself (trial & execution) just as bad?
FMAobsessed
@RoyxRizafan: I started to read the manga first before I watched the first anime too. So I agree with all your points. They were well said. If I wasn't so tired, I would think and write down some of my own opinions.
fmadiva
@royxrizafan you've made some good points but I disagree with one. Anime1Roy cares deeply for Ed and Al,he would always freak out when he found out that they went somewhere without his permission, he even hunt down Ed hiself in one of the later episodes.(He can be insensitive at times though dry.gif ...) Anime1Roy might not be a dofus or a total spaz but he was mysterious cool.gif which made him an interesting character and sexy too wink.gif plus him being cool-headed all the time made Ed's outbursts more hilarious XD and as for the movie..idk I though it was sweet how depressed Roy was over Ed's disappearence,he knew Ed wasn't dead and he waited for him all that long time. It really shows how strong their relationship is.
Aribelle
Manga Roy fo sho. The eye-patch was a deal breaker.

Seriously though, anime Roy was too angsty and guilt-ridden. And I mean I guess he had reason to be, but...meh.

His character in the manga is also a lot deeper and more interesting.
FailToImpress
QUOTE (hawkflame @ Nov 17 2009, 02:53 PM) *
Manga Roy and Brotherhood Roy own Anime1 Roy and COS Roy. Just look at the lust fight in episode 19/ manga vol. 10. That's all you really need.


Haha, I agree.

I still liked Anime1!Roy though, I dunno why, I just did. The people involved in the first series obviously had to make choices about his personality based on the first chapters of the manga... To be honest I'm not surprised they extrapolated his character out to be what it is in the first series. It was never going to be perfect. You might argue that all, or at least most, of the other characters in the first series were portrayed somewhat closely to the manga, but remember that Roy is a kind of mysterious and hard to figure out character.
Forsaken Love
QUOTE (Claudius @ Nov 17 2009, 09:34 PM) *
QUOTE (Forsaken Love @ Nov 17 2009, 12:15 AM) *
He murdered Winry's parents (not that anyone really cared) and I remember a scene where he was making fun of Ed for crying when he lost him limbs, I was like wtf!? you b****** make a habit of bulling traumitized mutilated children do we?
And yet you think what MangaIshvalRoy did in the war was so much better? If Kimbley wasn't around, guess who would have done the job? And Roy would have definitely done such a thing (Only this time, I think he would have roasted the Rockbells instead of shooting them).
As for Roy's joke, that was harmless better, and let us not forget Edward was now a State Alchemist, therefore an adult to be treated as such.



Edward may be a state alchemist, he is not an adult, as is refferred to at many points in the manga, and am i seriously wrong in thinking making fun of a kid who lost their limbs, their brother, and musta been in a hell of a lot of physical and mental pain at the time, is inappropiet XD What kind of adult wouldnt cry in that situation and even if Ed was an adult thats just horrible, That 'joke' made Roy out to be a crule and heartless b@stard to me, and even though it was a small scene really made me hate him

The Rockbells were killed by Scar not Kimbley O_o And let us not forget, yeh Roy sinned a lot during that war but Kimbley is kinda a bad guy and Roy is not, I can't hate a guy like Kimbley, been bad is his charm xD for Roy on the other hand its not
Claudius
QUOTE (Forsaken Love @ Nov 18 2009, 08:26 AM) *
Edward may be a state alchemist, he is not an adult, as is refferred to at many points in the manga, and am i seriously wrong in thinking making fun of a kid who lost their limbs, their brother, and musta been in a hell of a lot of physical and mental pain at the time, is inappropiet XD What kind of adult wouldnt cry in that situation and even if Ed was an adult thats just horrible, That 'joke' made Roy out to be a crule and heartless b@stard to me, and even though it was a small scene really made me hate him

The Rockbells were killed by Scar not Kimbley O_o And let us not forget, yeh Roy sinned a lot during that war but Kimbley is kinda a bad guy and Roy is not, I can't hate a guy like Kimbley, been bad is his charm xD for Roy on the other hand its not

But your example comes from Anime1, where several times Edward was reminded (by the Homonculus during the Lab 5 incident, by Granny Rockbell after Ed learned about Hughes death, etc.) that taking the State Alchemist job meant he is treated as an adult.
And Roy's joke was directed to no traumatized handicapped kid but Edward. He would never do it to anyone else (you don't see him ridiculing Al).
And in the manga, Kimbley was ordered to kill the Rockbells before Scar did that job. Without Scar, Kimbley would have done it. Without Kimbley, Roy would have done it.
Broken Chouchou
I think I like anime1 Roy better. He feels more adult and responsibilty-taking there, somehow. More understanding. And he is shown being more kind to Edward at several instances (though he is still a dry bastard xD) than he is in the manga, which makes him very easy to symphatize with. He gives the impression of being kind and just, yet strict and somewhat harsh/cold/professional to a certain degree. More laid back, self-preserved, more... authoritative. And we get to see his tramuatized side after what he was made to do in Ishval. And, I love how he is at the end of the series, having lost his eye and sitting there in the bed with Riza. And not to mention his voice, which is really suiting to him. The new Roy sounds a lot younger, which contributes a bit to his character not feeling quite as experienced or reliable (not saying that's how it is...).

But, on the other hand, the Roy in the manga/Brotherhood is pretty plain out awesome. So I suppose he's got some good things going for him too biggrin.gif And, truth be told, both Roy's does share more than a few common traits, so Brotherhood Roy of course has some of the good things as anime1 Roy does, too.
Sannom
QUOTE ("Claudius")
And for those who weren't happy about EmoRoy, isn't MangaRoy's planned ending for himself (trial & execution) just as bad?


I don't think so, he plans to do a lot of good before this happens. The trial and execution is not something they plan and want to happen, it's something they know will probably happen, and they are ready for it. Mustang killed hundreds and hundreds of people, often unarmed civilians, and chances are that in a democracy, Ishbalan people will ask for a trial for the "butchers" of Ishbal. That's what Roy fears will happen, and he is ready to face the consequences. CoS ! Roy just ran and hid from his responsibilities, just like Marcoh did at the end of the Ishbal war, and he didn't even try to fulfill his original objectives. In Manga ! Roy's case, his death would be a consequence of him achieving his goals. Big difference, don't you think?
Forsaken Love
QUOTE (Claudius @ Nov 18 2009, 05:30 PM) *
QUOTE (Forsaken Love @ Nov 18 2009, 08:26 AM) *
Edward may be a state alchemist, he is not an adult, as is refferred to at many points in the manga, and am i seriously wrong in thinking making fun of a kid who lost their limbs, their brother, and musta been in a hell of a lot of physical and mental pain at the time, is inappropiet XD What kind of adult wouldnt cry in that situation and even if Ed was an adult thats just horrible, That 'joke' made Roy out to be a crule and heartless b@stard to me, and even though it was a small scene really made me hate him

The Rockbells were killed by Scar not Kimbley O_o And let us not forget, yeh Roy sinned a lot during that war but Kimbley is kinda a bad guy and Roy is not, I can't hate a guy like Kimbley, been bad is his charm xD for Roy on the other hand its not

But your example comes from Anime1, where several times Edward was reminded (by the Homonculus during the Lab 5 incident, by Granny Rockbell after Ed learned about Hughes death, etc.) that taking the State Alchemist job meant he is treated as an adult.
And Roy's joke was directed to no traumatized handicapped kid but Edward. He would never do it to anyone else (you don't see him ridiculing Al).
And in the manga, Kimbley was ordered to kill the Rockbells before Scar did that job. Without Scar, Kimbley would have done it. Without Kimbley, Roy would have done it.



that doesnt mean he IS an adult, in the manga he's treated as an adult as far as his job as a state alchemist is concerned, such as when Kimbley is trying to make him do the job up at Briggs, whether it was to a traumitized ed or not is irrlevent, I personally don't see the difference, that comment of roy's was highly inappropiet considering what the brothers had gone through and just seemed pointless, what was Roy digging at, I hardly see it a crime to be crying when you've just been mutilated and lost your family but hey thats just me XD and also Roy is an adult he shouldnt be making comments like that, just thinking of that in say a real life situation, an adult making a comment like that to a rehibiltated teenager who had lost two limbs, that to me is *shock horror what the heck are you saying!?*

Also theres no reference in the manga that Roy would have got the job if Kimbley didn't, there were plenty of other soldiers in Ishbal
And well yeh I just don't like anime1 Roy and nothing will change my opinion on that sorry XD haha
Claudius
Well Forsaken Love, I still don't believe Roy was genuinely taking a cruel shot on Ed. This is a series where friends or allies with reciprocating respect tease each other a lot (Edward once called Hughes crazy? Does that mean he accusing him of mental illness?), so there's no need to take exception to Roy's words. Also, remember the company Roy is speaking this to: Hughes and Mustang inner circle. They all probably know (at least Riza and Hughes do) about Ed's strength over his mutilation and don't believe for a second that he was being a crybaby as Roy humorously states. Considering Anime1Hughes' relationship with the Brothers (which was much longer in Anime1, spanning about 4 years), the guy would have protested over any cruel treatment on them. The fact that Hughes does nothing here is proof that he knows Roy is just teasing and means no harsh insensitivity.

My other point was that if MangaRoy was given the order to kill the Rockbells, he would have done it. Since the government sent one Alchemist to do the job, it is probable that, if the first candidate was unavailable, they would send another Alchemist...like Roy.I respect your opinion to be loyal to MangaRoy; I just don't see anything in your words to justify hating Anime1Roy.

Sannom, you must remember what Anime1Roy has gone through. MangaRoy has so far not strayed from his objective, with no mistakes or consequences. In the end, the worst that MangaRoy is going to deal with is mourning Hughes (I do believe his guilt over Havoc's crippling will be resolved by Mei). What is on Anime1Roy's plate? Mourning Hughes, dealing with the fact that he betrayed his friend's promise to be the better man (taking the right path and no revenge, as Scieszka, Winry, and Al pointed out), the death of an innocent child, and Edward's disappearance. With so much cost and guilt, you have to admit the guy needed some major time out. Even the strongest stick may break if given too much pressure (or something like that). So Roy left to come to terms.
And remember, CoSRoy did come back. In the Nazi Invasion, when his friends & country needed him most, Roy did not let them down. I would consider that saving Central and helping Al reunite with Ed was the tonic Roy needed, convincing him that he can and will do some good in the future. I don't see any more hiatus for him.
Anyway, why I brought up MangaRoy's plan in comparison to CoSRoy is of a different reason. I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting things, but I can't help suspecting that there is a large number of FMA fans whose dislike for CoSRoy is based on 'We want a happy ending for Roy & Riza! How dare CoS disappoint us! This Anime sucks hard!' Thus, the fact that the MangaRoy isn't planning on a happy ending either makes this hatred sound rather nonsensical. I apologize if my comments imply including the MangaRoy fans whose love of the incarnation has little to do with expecting a wedding, Roy and Riza Mustang living to a ripe old age together, etc.
Sannom
QUOTE ("Claudius")
but I can't help suspecting that there is a large number of FMA fans whose dislike for CoSRoy is based on 'We want a happy ending for Roy & Riza! How dare CoS disappoint us! This Anime sucks hard!'


I can't speak for Royai fans since I'm not one, but since the movie ends with a open ending for that ship, I wouldn't think they would be THAT upset because of it. EdWin fans, on the other hands, were furious, of that I'm sure tongue.gif . Manga ! Roy fans are most likely angry about the characterization, so different from the manga. I know some Anime1 ! Roy fans were quite disappointed by CoS ! Roy, he didn't have any spirit left, a real slug, and the no alchemy and exile thing seemed pretty much out of character and out of nowhere. Not to mention the ugliness of that eyepatch. The small one on Bradley is badass, but Mustang's big one that covers half of his face? Not so much.

And I think you're over-estimating the power of ships in that fandom huh.gif There was enough offending things about the series and movie, when compared to the manga, that the "ships" would seem a minor thing!

QUOTE ("Claudius")
And remember, CoSRoy did come back. In the Nazi Invasion, when his friends & country needed him most, Roy did not let them down.


I suppose that's another thing hard to swallow : where the hell did he come from? Why didn't they hint at him having a change of heart? Did he really hear of the invasion and came from all up north in a matter of two or three hours?

QUOTE ("Claudius")
My other point was that if MangaRoy was given the order to kill the Rockbells, he would have done it. Since the government sent one Alchemist to do the job, it is probable that, if the first candidate was unavailable, they would send another Alchemist...like Roy.


Pretty much unlikely, the fact that Kimblee was the one to whom the stone was given shows that they trusted him a lot more than the other state alchemists. Or at least, they didn't doubt his enthusiasm into carrying out the extermination. Plus, don't forget that Kimblee was never given the direct order to kill the Rockbell... it was all implied in their speech, and Kimblee was "asked" to make it look like a collateral damage : this shows that the army wanted it to be done quietly, that no one except someone with no morales could carry it out and that nobody should ever find out. They didn't ask the more ax-crazy of the state alchemists to do it for nothing, after all.

The Rockbell were a nuisance, but still citizens of Amestris. The generals were just impatient, so they asked for Kimblee to quicken things up by destroying them if he found the opportunity. Something he probably couldn't have done anyways since he went to their hospital with his full platoon.


QUOTE ("Claudius")
I do believe his guilt over Havoc's crippling will be resolved by Mei


Havoc won't be healed. He was shown as able to cope with his new handicap, he didn't need his legs to catch up with Mustang and the others. If Havoc could deal with it, Mustang will do it too, if he didn't already. I mean, he did say that Havoc will not make him pay anything laugh.gif
Claudius
QUOTE (Sannom @ Nov 18 2009, 04:05 PM) *
I can't speak for Royai fans since I'm not one, but since the movie ends with a open ending for that ship, I wouldn't think they would be THAT upset because of it. EdWin fans, on the other hands, were furious, of that I'm sure tongue.gif .
Tell me about it... But I digress...

QUOTE
And I think you're over-estimating the power of ships in that fandom huh.gif There was enough offending things about the series and movie, when compared to the manga, that the "ships" would seem a minor thing!
Perhaps, though the Movie Boards IMO, haven't revealed much complaints of quality underneath the 'CoS has provoked me to violence and I want to destroy Bones!' rants. blink.gif Again I digress...

QUOTE
I suppose that's another thing hard to swallow : where the hell did he come from? Why didn't they hint at him having a change of heart? Did he really hear of the invasion and came from all up north in a matter of two or three hours?
It's suggested that the period between Invasions of Lior and Central spanned less than a week. I suppose Roy heard about the Lior attack, realized something was up, deduced Central was the next target (with its underground city), and went there. He got there before Winry did.
Still, I will admit the discontinuity of CoS Roy. We have A (Roy's situation) and C (Roy to the rescue), but there is no B (a scene of Roy making his decision) or D (his survival from that falling wing).

QUOTE
Pretty much unlikely, the fact that Kimblee was the one to whom the stone was given shows that they trusted him a lot more than the other state alchemists. Or at least, they didn't doubt his enthusiasm into carrying out the extermination.
It's not like Roy gave much evidence of actual resistance...
RoyxRizaFan
Yes, there are a few fans that disregard the anime due to RoyAi, but my opinion of both anime and manga are entirely unaffected by this ship. Yes, I love RoyAi, and it is my favorite anime pairing. HOWEVER, FMA is not about pairings and although we enjoy the pairings and like to fantasize about them, we are, at heart, realists (I'm referring to this forum, mainly) and do not judge FMA based on romance. Because it isn't romance, and the romance isn't what makes it amazing. It's just an added bonus since Arakawa portrays it in a unique way.

This may seem off-topic, but it's kind of a disclaimer...

As for the Rockbell thing, I didn't mention it in my first post because at this point, I could care less. It was just another thing for me to complain about, but I feel like the argument over it has been gone over so many times before that it's evident we'll only reach a dead end on either side since no one can ever or will ever reach an agreement on it.

AnimeRoy was interesting for sure, and certainly mysterious, but I never made an emotional connection with his character because I found him less relatable. Despite his repenting in CoS, I find mangaRoy more human because there are so many layers to his character. One second he'll be punching Ed in the face and being a complete douche, the next he's saving Ross. One second, he's completely useless and stupid, and the next he's fighting with all the strength he has to save his comrades. He makes mistakes like approaching the Fuhrer, but he doesnt let it stop him because he's made promises to Ed and Riza that require him to stay on track. It's because he is so human that he needs these promises to make sure he doesn't stray off track.

Roy's character felt more developed and understandable in the manga, to me at least, because at first, he looked like a maniac saying he was going to take over the world, and then we found out how he came to desire the position as Fuhrer through the Ishbalan war. We see him as he desperately tries to make his idealistic naive dreams come into reality, and see as he forges relationships and makes promises.

Broken Chouchou
Wow, seems like my recollection af anime1 Roy is off track (close to derailed) compared to what everyone else is saying.
Forsaken Love
QUOTE (Claudius @ Nov 18 2009, 10:57 PM) *
Well Forsaken Love, I still don't believe Roy was genuinely taking a cruel shot on Ed. This is a series where friends or allies with reciprocating respect tease each other a lot (Edward once called Hughes crazy? Does that mean he accusing him of mental illness?), so there's no need to take exception to Roy's words. Also, remember the company Roy is speaking this to: Hughes and Mustang inner circle. They all probably know (at least Riza and Hughes do) about Ed's strength over his mutilation and don't believe for a second that he was being a crybaby as Roy humorously states. Considering Anime1Hughes' relationship with the Brothers (which was much longer in Anime1, spanning about 4 years), the guy would have protested over any cruel treatment on them. The fact that Hughes does nothing here is proof that he knows Roy is just teasing and means no harsh insensitivity.

My other point was that if MangaRoy was given the order to kill the Rockbells, he would have done it. Since the government sent one Alchemist to do the job, it is probable that, if the first candidate was unavailable, they would send another Alchemist...like Roy.I respect your opinion to be loyal to MangaRoy; I just don't see anything in your words to justify hating Anime1Roy.


Lulz yeh I know it wasn't delibralty crule thats just a horrible thing to make a joke over, (when writing this i was sharply reminded of this comedian who was in the news latley for causing offense to loads of people about making a joke over mutilated soldiers XD) In the same way it would be omg what are you saying, if Ed made some joke out of Ishbal to Roy, to me it was just uncalled for and very insensitive, I know it was just a small scene but it really put me off the character XD

I have to say I am biasd though as I'm not fond of anime1 in general at all, so im probably going ott for that reason XD haha that and I don't dislike Roy but he's far down in my list of favourite characters XD

Lulz tis fine if ya don't agree XD It's just my opinion tongue.gif
Sannom
QUOTE (Claudius @ Nov 18 2009, 06:52 PM) *
It's not like Roy gave much evidence of actual resistance...



No, but they must have had reports made from normal soldiers and commanding officers about the behavior and effectiveness of state alchemists on the field. If Kimblee was as ax-crazy as they said, laughing when killing Ishbalans, it wasn't hard for them to guess that he wouldn't care for more dirty work. While Mustang often talked about his doubts about the war and how he hated killing all those people, but continuing to protect his soldiers and simply get out of here alive. Kimblee himself could have reported this to his commanding officer.

Mustang was like most of the other soldiers in that war, a coward with not enough guts to question openly what was going on. He knew it was weird, yet continued to murder Ishbalan because as such were his orders, and that a single rebellion from a single state alchemist couldn't change anything. But murdering Amestrians that were just there to heal people, I don't think that any soldier except the craziest ones would have accepted. I don't even think the generals would have been stupid enough to "ask" it to someone they didn't trust.
Thalogens
Sorry in advance if someone has pointed this out before, and this is the only topic where I think it applies (its about manga/anime1/anime2 Roy!)

But has anyone noticed that the acronym to learn the rainbow 'Roy G Biv' has 'Roy' in it, and the colours for it are red orange and yellow? The colours of fire... ...? Did Arakawa do that on purpose, or was it a complete coincidence? I like to think that Arakawa-Sensei knows primary-school acronyms.

Well, ahem, I thought it was a big revelation at the time. I bet everyone figured this out ages ago. Ahh, I'm so late.
Broken Chouchou
QUOTE (DoxyWings @ Nov 19 2009, 03:26 PM) *
Well, ahem, I thought it was a big revelation at the time. I bet everyone figured this out ages ago. Ahh, I'm so late.


Actually, no. What the heck is that rainbow-thing? @.x

Maybe there's cultural aspects involved here that I'm unfamiliar with... the acronym to learn the rainbow?
Turdaewen
I don't think Arakawa know about that at all... I'm not sure she's THAT familiar with american/english culture to know their primary-school acronyms.

QUOTE (RoyxRizaFan @ Nov 18 2009, 11:11 PM) *
Yes, there are a few fans that disregard the anime due to RoyAi, but my opinion of both anime and manga are entirely unaffected by this ship. Yes, I love RoyAi, and it is my favorite anime pairing. HOWEVER, FMA is not about pairings and although we enjoy the pairings and like to fantasize about them, we are, at heart, realists (I'm referring to this forum, mainly) and do not judge FMA based on romance. Because it isn't romance, and the romance isn't what makes it amazing. It's just an added bonus since Arakawa portrays it in a unique way.

This may seem off-topic, but it's kind of a disclaimer...

As for the Rockbell thing, I didn't mention it in my first post because at this point, I could care less. It was just another thing for me to complain about, but I feel like the argument over it has been gone over so many times before that it's evident we'll only reach a dead end on either side since no one can ever or will ever reach an agreement on it.

AnimeRoy was interesting for sure, and certainly mysterious, but I never made an emotional connection with his character because I found him less relatable. Despite his repenting in CoS, I find mangaRoy more human because there are so many layers to his character. One second he'll be punching Ed in the face and being a complete douche, the next he's saving Ross. One second, he's completely useless and stupid, and the next he's fighting with all the strength he has to save his comrades. He makes mistakes like approaching the Fuhrer, but he doesnt let it stop him because he's made promises to Ed and Riza that require him to stay on track. It's because he is so human that he needs these promises to make sure he doesn't stray off track.

Roy's character felt more developed and understandable in the manga, to me at least, because at first, he looked like a maniac saying he was going to take over the world, and then we found out how he came to desire the position as Fuhrer through the Ishbalan war. We see him as he desperately tries to make his idealistic naive dreams come into reality, and see as he forges relationships and makes promises.

I totally agree with you!

I didn't have much to relate to with Roy in the first anime either. He even got on my nerves, a couple of times. Even at the beginning of the manga, I didn't really felt strongly about him.

I just started relating to him when I started to really get to know him in the manga, and see the idealist that he is. I'm a sort of person that always relate a lot to stories and characters that sort of mimic an epic/mythical structure and I didn't see much of that in FMA 1 Roy. I'm a person who's REALLY into simbology, mythology and the such (most my favorite books and movies follow that) and I only get really inspired with things that, in a way or another, I can see that sort of relation. And that 'journey to become the king' of Roy only trully happens in the manga and THAT's why I like him so much in the first place.

So, I don't say that FMA 1 Roy is bad or anything, but he just doesn't make me click. He just seems a little too much 'lost' for my taste.
EniviD EiraM
For me, it's FMA Roy 'cause in the first season of FMA, there was one episode where it featured the 'Flame Alchemist and his company'(something like that) and I almost die in laughter when I watched it.... The anime will surely be more matured, funnier, and a little serious too ...

fmadiva
idk i thought the eyepatch was kinda sexy
alicechen
I like the Roy in Brotherhood, just because I can connect to his character more. Plus, he has better action scenes in here. woohoots!
Andie
I have to say Manga!Roy or Brotherhood!Roy on this one although, personally, I don't see much differences in personality on all the Roys. It's more of the matter the first anime treated his storyline. I mean, he just goes after the Fuhrer all alone with Riza, kills him because he's lucky and then POOF! Democracy returns, the government gives lands to the people they used to kill mercilessly and there's no trace of people disapproving! I dunno, it kinda downplayed the whole thing. It was supposed to be a revolution. I don't know if you can really change your country by only killing its leader. There's got to be other people who support him and you have to deal with these people. Hitler had Goebbels, Goering, Himmler (ugh!) and a whole bunch of happy nutcases with him. It just seemed like the writers didn't know exactly where they wanted to take this particular subplot, I guess...

But then, it's kinda hard to write your one storyline with another person's characters. The writers of the first anime still did a good job...
Claudius
QUOTE (Andie @ Nov 28 2009, 03:20 PM) *
I have to say Manga!Roy or Brotherhood!Roy on this one although, personally, I don't see much differences in personality on all the Roys. It's more of the matter the first anime treated his storyline. I mean, he just goes after the Fuhrer all alone with Riza, kills him because he's lucky and then POOF!
You make it sound like Anime1Roy had it easy! He didn't have his manga's counterpart's convenience of possessing a pawn's security, not to mention having several armies, Scar, and the chimeras to get him out of every dilemma he met (nor did Anime1Riza talk him out of getting revenge). Anime1Roy had to do much of it by his lonesome and didn't get away unscathed, physically or emotionally. Losing an eye and a dream is a lot worse than a few stab wounds.

QUOTE
Democracy returns, the government gives lands to the people they used to kill mercilessly and there's no trace of people disapproving! I dunno, it kinda downplayed the whole thing. It was supposed to be a revolution. I don't know if you can really change your country by only killing its leader. There's got to be other people who support him and you have to deal with these people.
A coup was mentioned. Maria Ross told Izumi that they would join up with the rest of the rebels, and Archinator mentioned that Central Command was a war zone, suggesting that something else was going on besides his little rampage. I guess I could blame the downplay on the insufficient number of episodes.
And Bradley's death (in the anime1) severed all control the homunculus had on the country. And Dante's own eventual demise made the end complete.

QUOTE
Hitler had Goebbels, Goering, Himmler (ugh!) and a whole bunch of happy nutcases with him. It just seemed like the writers didn't know exactly where they wanted to take this particular subplot, I guess...
Doesn't mean Nazi Germany would have continued without Hitler. He was the major force in keeping the country fighting a losing war of attrition. If he had been killed in the 'Valkyrie' assassination plot, the War in Europe would have been over a lot sooner despite Goebbels, Goering, and Himmler (all who, I recall, either ran away or killed themselves).
I suppose you can say the same thing for the corrupt higher-ups. Their control was based on fear or the hopes of benefits from Bradley (and Dante and her Homunculus). Suddenly, the next morning, Bradley, Dante, and 90% of the Homunculus are now gone. On what security could the corrupt officials keep power in case of a coup (which seemingly happened)?
Andie
I understand where you come from Claudius. Maybe I haven't explained myself that well. I thought Anime!Roy's plan wasn't that realist from the beginning. I would have wanted him to have allies. He could have find allies if he wanted. I understand that he had no support, but that's because his men didn't do much. What was Hawkeye and the others doing? Why wouldn't they help him get through the hard parts? Their characters were there only for that, right? Being Mustang's support? What was the point of them being in the anime then?

Also, I wanted to see him plot what to do, not just going to kill the Fuhrer while not really knowing how to do it. I know he was blinded by rage, but like Ed and Bradley said, it was a stupid thing to do to throw away your dream (a dream that Hughes endorsed!) just to have revenge! I wanted to see him come to term with his rage and his grief. It was part of his character development as much as his guilt of killing the Rockbells and the anime didn't exactly show how he resolved it (and it caused him so much trouble in the movie!).
In the manga, Hawkeye, Scar and Ed helped him and that was okay. I really wanted to see him work through his grief and do something that Hughes would have been proud of!
In short, his subplot was interesting and important. I wish to have seen more of it. sad.gif

And even if the Homunculus' grap on the country was severed with Bradley's death, I really don't buy how a country would automatically revert to democracy after years of military dictatorship. Germany had a lot of problems, even after Hitler's death, and so did a lot of country after years of war and/or tyranny. I mean, there were officers at the Ishbal war who obviously didn't have any problems committing a genocide; Bradley didn't go there and killed everyone by himself. Did they all die during the battle against Ross' forces? Would the surviving ones accept a government where they might be put on a trial for what they did? I know that they would have no security, but maybe they could have caused some heavy trouble. A bunch of guys worried that their grip on power might slip can be quite a thorn in the side of a young and still fragile government.

I know I nitpicking a bit, but these are flaws that contribute to the fact that the first anime isn't among my favourite series ever. These are the things that I would have wished to see addressed and resolved.
Claudius
QUOTE (Andie @ Nov 29 2009, 07:34 AM) *
I understand where you come from Claudius. Maybe I haven't explained myself that well. I thought Anime!Roy's plan wasn't that realist from the beginning. I would have wanted him to have allies. He could have find allies if he wanted. I understand that he had no support, but that's because his men didn't do much. What was Hawkeye and the others doing? Why wouldn't they help him get through the hard parts? Their characters were there only for that, right? Being Mustang's support? What was the point of them being in the anime then?
But what the hell could they do against the Homunculus? Shoot them? Think about how difficult it was for Roy's subordinates to take down Lust and Gluttony in the manga. In the end, it was Roy who had the power to destroy a Homunculus (and even then Roy survived barely, thanks to Hughes & Riza taking some life-points off of Lust). It was pretty much the same in Anime1; to take down a powerful Homunculus, an Alchemist was needed. And since Scar and Marcoh were dead, Izumi had her limits, Edward had his own situation, and Armstrong was probably too noble to fight the Fuhrer, that job fell on Roy's hand. Also, he didn't want to lose any more officers in what would be an overwhelming fight. He let his subordinates take the fair fight with opposing soldiers (which is exactly what happened in the manga).

QUOTE
Also, I wanted to see him plot what to do, not just going to kill the Fuhrer while not really knowing how to do it. I know he was blinded by rage, but like Ed and Bradley said, it was a stupid thing to do to throw away your dream (a dream that Hughes endorsed!) just to have revenge! I wanted to see him come to term with his rage and his grief. It was part of his character development as much as his guilt of killing the Rockbells and the anime didn't exactly show how he resolved it (and it caused him so much trouble in the movie!).
But Roy had NO time at all! Amestris was starting the invasion of Drachma (in episode 47!). Before his discovery, Roy would have sadly looked to this campaign as yet another violent war made for imperialism. Now he knows these wars were made for no purpose but to give the Homunculus more Philosopher Stones. He can no longer be passive to seeing another evil-minded massacre happen again, especially after his failure to save Hughes (In addition, Roy knew Bradley was planning to kill him- no security of being a pawn in this version). Stopping Bradley was the only solution to stop this invasion, and the only way to stop him was to kill him, even if he had revenge on the brain. That's probably why Anime1Riza made no protest to the revenge plan: this had to happen. In the manga, killing Envy would solve nothing in the war. In Anime1, killing Bradley was the decisive blow.
That's the interesting Catch-22 of Anime1Roy's situation: If he kills Bradley in his vengeance-racked mind, he destroys himself. But if he waits, more people will die. Bradley will have his Drachma Massacre, Roy will be an outlaw, and- since the Elric Brothers-Dante plot probably took its eventual course uninterrupted- Bradley will take over the Homunculus party, and hunt down & kill the human Alphonse. For this Roy, it's damned if he does, damned if he does not.

QUOTE
In the manga, Hawkeye, Scar and Ed helped him and that was okay. I really wanted to see him work through his grief and do something that Hughes would have been proud of!
I'm thinking Roy hasn't quite begun the depression part of Grief yet. He's already passed denial, bargaining, and anger.

QUOTE
And even if the Homunculus' grap on the country was severed with Bradley's death, I really don't buy how a country would automatically revert to democracy after years of military dictatorship. Germany had a lot of problems, even after Hitler's death, and so did a lot of country after years of war and/or tyranny.
Well, Schisezka's letter was probably set a month since the assassination. You can't blame her for being a little too naive that things can be so easily resolved.

QUOTE
I mean, there were officers at the Ishbal war who obviously didn't have any problems committing a genocide; Bradley didn't go there and killed everyone by himself. Did they all die during the battle against Ross' forces? Would the surviving ones accept a government where they might be put on a trial for what they did? I know that they would have no security, but maybe they could have caused some heavy trouble. A bunch of guys worried that their grip on power might slip can be quite a thorn in the side of a young and still fragile government.
Yes, not everything was swept under the rug. This is FMA we're talking about.
Deadbeat007
Manga/Brotherhood Roy. CoS Roy was probably the least endearing, but I guess he didn't have a huge part, considering its length.
MoonliteWolf
Well, I saw this and couldn't help share my thoughts too. Yay for first post? But I think that you guys have pretty much covered nearly everything by now. And yeah, I'm all for Manga!Roy.

QUOTE (Claudius @ Nov 29 2009, 11:09 AM) *
I'm thinking Roy hasn't quite begun the depression part of Grief yet. He's already passed denial, bargaining, and anger.

Are you talking about Anime1!Roy or Manga!Roy? I don't think that Manga!Roy will ever be in the depression stage of grief. He isn't the type to wallow in self-pity or remorse like that, and even he did, it would have been during Ishbal or Ishvar or whatever the actual spelling is. Anime1!Roy seems like a kicked puppy. He's dramatic and lost, and yes, dignified, but in a defeated sort of way. Same with CoS!Roy. He decided to exile himself and run away and "repent". Manga!Roy has dealt with Ishbal/Ishvar and faced it head on by deciding to become Fuhrer. Yes, he seems to be too idealistic, but that's what makes him such a character and different from Anime1/CoS!Roy. Anime!Roy seems more the type who would go out and get wasted for a night to drown his troubles and deal with the world later. Manga!Roy faces it head on with his companions at his side to help him shoulder the burden. A lotta times, it feels like Anime!Roy is carrying the world on his shoulders all by himself and is close to collapsing, while Manga!Roy is less isolated, more open to his subordinates who will be there to catch him when he breaks.

And like it was said before, Manga!Roy is easier to relate to. He's such a rounded character and really has many sides. Sometimes I wanna just slap him, sometimes I wanna applaud his awesomeness, and other times I'm laughing at or with him. Not that I'm saying Anime!Roy is flat and plain. He's just WAY more... dramatically angsty. Angst is good, and so is mysterious, but not up to the extent where it nearly defines his character. In my eyes, he's the "traumatized by a bloody war and from killing the Rockbells and now stuck in the past", or maybe not THAT bad, but still.

I admit, Anime!Roy does have his excuses for being angsty. After all, he had to face Ishbal/Ishvar all alone, without Hughes to support him (T.T I don't quite like that they gave Huges a desk job in the first anime. Makes sense and all, but... I think he deserves more than that. But that's something entirely different.), and no Riza there either (yeah, totally a RoyxRiza fan, but that's also beside the point, and it really doesn't influence my opinion on Roy at all.). He did have to go through everything on his own and I guess that stuck. But that doesn't change my opinion at all/

I don't really have anything against Anime!Roy, I just like Manga!Roy much better. Standing alone, he's not a bad character, but pit up against Manga!Roy, he seems bland in comparison.
Claudius
QUOTE (MoonliteWolf @ Nov 30 2009, 04:33 PM) *
Are you talking about Anime1!Roy or Manga!Roy? I don't think that Manga!Roy will ever be in the depression stage of grief.
Well, both versions have gone through denial ('It's beginning to rain'), bargaining ('I'll carry through my promise for Hughes') and anger (Anime1Roy when he learned that Bradley was a Homunculus. MangaRoy when Envy did his Gracia impression). To say MangaRoy won't go sorrow is to deny he expressed rage, and we know the latter definitely happened. The extent of his rage means an equal amount of sadness still exists in him over his best friend's death, ready to be released. I suppose Roy's going to have a good cry once this is all done. Fortunately, he won't have to deal with the messy angst that would prolong the ordeal (no dead child or vengeance fulfilled/betrayal of Hughes' memory) before acceptance comes.
fantacy alchamist
I prefer the manga/Brotherhood Roy but I do like the Shambala Roy because he looks so cute when he is denial,eye patch (but of course he is one of the only characters that can pull that off) and trying to light a fire HEHE

with the other versions of Roy his loyalty to his friends is not really represented. Manga Roy wants to protect his friends but he also wants them to follow him in to the depths of hell (the argument with Havoc after finds out that Havoc is paralyzed is a good example)
and the resent chapters have been quite funny/ ironic in regards to him loosing his sight, fighting with Riza about killing Envy.

although in a way all of the Roy's in my opinion are very emotional on the inside but hardly ever shows it.
Claudius
QUOTE (fantacy alchamist @ Jan 11 2010, 07:58 AM) *
with the other versions of Roy his loyalty to his friends is not really represented. Manga Roy wants to protect his friends but he also wants them to follow him in to the depths of hell.
I thought FMA1 handled his friendship with Hughes pretty well. Episode 25 has this flashback where Hughes visits Roy in what is probably their first meeting for a long time (Note: Anime1Hughes never went to Ishval). We have Roy's zombified face answering the door to a shocked Hughes. The friend immediately goes happy face, presenting a pie. And this makes Roy turn his frown upside-down for probably the first time in years. The scene speaks volumes on how much Roy regarded Hughes, thus making what happened in that episode all the more tragic for him.
fantacy alchamist
QUOTE (Claudius @ Jan 12 2010, 07:14 PM) *
QUOTE (fantacy alchamist @ Jan 11 2010, 07:58 AM) *
with the other versions of Roy his loyalty to his friends is not really represented. Manga Roy wants to protect his friends but he also wants them to follow him in to the depths of hell.
I thought FMA1 handled his friendship with Hughes pretty well. Episode 25 has this flashback where Hughes visits Roy in what is probably their first meeting for a long time (Note: Anime1Hughes never went to Ishval). We have Roy's zombified face answering the door to a shocked Hughes. The friend immediately goes happy face, presenting a pie. And this makes Roy turn his frown upside-down for probably the first time in years. The scene speaks volumes on how much Roy regarded Hughes, thus making what happened in that episode all the more tragic for him.

I understand what U say and I agree with you (I cried the whole episode) but i was leading more to the others Havoc (who I find funny), Fury, Falman, Breda who play a bigger part in the manga (the invading of Central)
Meas in my opinion is also quite close to the brothers (a father figure)
angelstar2408
I like Manga Roy more.. He seems more mature to me in the manga than in any other media I suppose...
shanryelric
Roy in brotherhood and manga, ofcourse. he's just in to the character and doesn't end up emo-ing or something like that...
Roy***
I love all of him ♥
Flamez_Freak
manga/brotherhood roy...any day...more character development....and less emo.....
Cece
QUOTE (Sannom @ Nov 18 2009, 03:18 PM) *
QUOTE ("Claudius")
And for those who weren't happy about EmoRoy, isn't MangaRoy's planned ending for himself (trial & execution) just as bad?


I don't think so, he plans to do a lot of good before this happens. The trial and execution is not something they plan and want to happen, it's something they know will probably happen, and they are ready for it. Mustang killed hundreds and hundreds of people, often unarmed civilians, and chances are that in a democracy, Ishbalan people will ask for a trial for the "butchers" of Ishbal. That's what Roy fears will happen, and he is ready to face the consequences. CoS ! Roy just ran and hid from his responsibilities, just like Marcoh did at the end of the Ishbal war, and he didn't even try to fulfill his original objectives. In Manga ! Roy's case, his death would be a consequence of him achieving his goals. Big difference, don't you think?


I love you Sannom, happy.gif
TheSentinel
QUOTE (Claudius @ Nov 17 2009, 05:34 PM) *
He has the common sense NOT to disclose the 'Bradley is a Homunculus' knowledge to some stranger


Raven choice precisely the right language to use on Roy, he talked about Grumman as a friend, or at least an acquaintance. Roy's is looking for allies / footing in Central. The way Roy pointed out that Bradley was a Homunculus was well done. Remember Ed and Al's reaction to discovering a Homunculus could actually exists, or Roy's own reaction. These are accomplished Alchemists that are shocked that a Homunculus is possible. A non-alchemist like Raven probably would have gone "huh?....." It appears Roy's got a pretty good sense things are going the wrong way fast when Raven invites him along.

The other thing to keep in mind, while he did show his hand to Raven, I suspect Raven was going to "collect" Mustang anyways. Bradley recognized Riza driving away with a captured Gluttony, I think Central Command was going to bring Roy into line regardless of what he said to Raven.

QUOTE (Claudius @ Nov 29 2009, 03:09 PM) *
But Roy had NO time at all! Amestris was starting the invasion of Drachma (in episode 47!). Before his discovery, Roy would have sadly looked to this campaign as yet another violent war made for imperialism. Now he knows these wars were made for no purpose but to give the Homunculus more Philosopher Stones. He can no longer be passive to seeing another evil-minded massacre happen again, especially after his failure to save Hughes (In addition, Roy knew Bradley was planning to kill him- no security of being a pawn in this version). Stopping Bradley was the only solution to stop this invasion, and the only way to stop him was to kill him, even if he had revenge on the brain. That's probably why Anime1Riza made no protest to the revenge plan: this had to happen. In the manga, killing Envy would solve nothing in the war. In Anime1, killing Bradley was the decisive blow.
That's the interesting Catch-22 of Anime1Roy's situation: If he kills Bradley in his vengeance-racked mind, he destroys himself. But if he waits, more people will die. Bradley will have his Drachma Massacre, Roy will be an outlaw, and- since the Elric Brothers-Dante plot probably took its eventual course uninterrupted- Bradley will take over the Homunculus party, and hunt down & kill the human Alphonse. For this Roy, it's damned if he does, damned if he does not.


This is probably the best explanation for what Mustang was doing at the end of Anime1. Until you spelled out why he may have done what he did I always thought he was going off half cocked with no support.

While Anime1 got he interested in FMA and got me to read the manga... once I read the manga it wins hands down. Manga Roy did unconscionable things in Ishval but so did Anime1 Roy. It looks to me though that manga Roy has taken more steps and stuck to "the plan" to fix / "repair" / repent? things. I think this comes from the manga flushing out the military considerably more then anime1.

Sorry to drag up 6 month old posts, but they gots me thunking...
Claudius
Regardless that the leashing was a foregone conclusion, Roy should have paid attention to one major point: That if the Fuhrer was a Homunculus, and had been so for a good period of time, then wouldn't that mean a lot of people knew about it? If Roy was looking for allies, he should have stayed away from all the major higher-ups in Central. Saying 'Fuhrer is a Homunculus', even as a joke, was inviting some knowledge of what he knew. Perhaps Anime1Roy knew this; on his Resembool report to Central Command, he only mentioned that Juliet Douglas might be involved in the death of Hughes, without any mention of the 'H' word (and an investigation would find that Roy learned this knowledge from other sources besides the brothers).
Then again, this Roy had very little interest in negotiations or exposure/blackmail plots. He wanted Bradley dead, period.

QUOTE
While Anime1 got he interested in FMA and got me to read the manga... once I read the manga it wins hands down. Manga Roy did unconscionable things in Ishval but so did Anime1 Roy. It looks to me though that manga Roy has taken more steps and stuck to "the plan" to fix / "repair" / repent? things. I think this comes from the manga flushing out the military considerably more then anime1.

Well, one has to remember that, for both Roys, their conclusions didn't start that way. MangaRoy made it known that he was after Hughes' murderer, and I doubt the end of his quest would be the culprit getting a slap of the wrist. Anime1Roy, at the beginning, tried to let it go. To Schieszka's eyes, it appeared Roy didn't care at all about solving the mystery, more interested in rising up. In truth, Roy was honoring Hughes by taking the right path to becoming the great man, one who would not take to revenge or grief. This, of course, didn't work out. But in how both versions handled the revenge, I would say that MangaRoy was not the stronger person in maintaining his ideals; he was just luckier. He had the way outs (Riza threatening to go Mayerling on him & Envy's suicide); The only break Anime1Roy got was Selim...
Kaiko
Anime1-Roy was simply mysterious and wasn't really given the chance to be elaborated on like he is in the manga and Brotherhood. (Don't care much for COS Roy...or COS in general...if I had to compare it with everything else). But still, he's the Roy I first saw, so my heart sorta has a special place for that one lol. But manga/Brotherhood Roy really does own. He's flawed, he's done horrible things, but you can tell he cares deeply about the friends/subordinates around him, and not to mention he's got some badass scenes in the manga too. smile.gif
Royai plz :3
CoS Roy was way too angsty.... like when he first appeared in the movie he was all "I'm standing here... aaall emo... and I have an eyepatch... and everyone is sorryfor me". HE EVEN USED MATCHES I MEAN WTF?!
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