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LastoftheDamned
Hey! I'm really new to the board but I've seen how intelligently people have discussed FMA topics here so I hope someone can shed some light on this theory I have...

The nationwide transmutation circle has already been acknowledged as the focus of father's plan ever since Hughes first discovered it. After the Xerxes arc it has been widely accepted that Father intends to create yet another collossal philosopher stone from the citiens of Amestris. However, I have not accepted this assumption because it does not fully explain father's actions. Why does he need special sacrifices (people who have seen the truth) to create another philosopher stone? He was not shown to need any in the Xerxes arc and neither has Dr Marco who created many himself. Furthermore, in the latest chapter,a very conspicuos solar eclispe occurs toward the very end suggesting it will play a role in father's plan. Again, why would he need this now and not back then in Xerxes? I think the answer to these questions is that the transumutation at Xerxes and the one planned now are two completely different things.

A New Nationwide transmutation circle is in Amestris and father has something much different planned for the country than he did for Xerxes. Ofcourse, the characters in the manga all seem to have reached the conclusion that the traditonal circle is in use throughout the country http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/77/21/. I think that they are mistaken but not that they are completely wrong, just half right. Amestris and Xing use two different forms of Alchemy, Renkinjutsu and Rentanjutsu respectively. I think that the two are only halves of a greater form of alchemy called ougonjutsu. How exacty these two were seperated from the original and from eachother is a little tangential so I won't go into much further than to say that I think that the disconnect was made purposely by father.

Anyway, most people who would look at the travesties in Ametris and link them together (ie Hughes) would only have a background of either Renkinjutsu or Rentanjutsu and wouldn't get the whole picture. Luckily for us, Scar's brother wasn't like most people. Scarbro studied both alchemies and was able to look at the countries' actions with both in mind. Thanks to this, unlike Hughes who only got half the story, Scarbro saw the real nationwide transmutation circle [url= "http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/77/25/"[/url]. This transmutation circle involves both alchmies which i believe to be parts of the whole true alchemy ougonjutsu. I think that father knows ougonjutsu and plans to achieve some sort of perfection with the transmutation of Amestris.This has been alluded to through the eclipse, the use of Special sacrifices and father's new form. Ed mentioned while in gluttony that the sun and moon represent mind and soul. The two connecting in an eclipse could represent the unity of the two while the human sacrifices act as the body. This combination could symbolize the complete unity and perfection that father seeks. After all, he did change his form to better resemble truth, the God in fma, and has also cast out all his emotions to achieve a higher state of rationality which most would see as perfection.

Well that's my theory, I hope it wasn't too boring or redundant. biggrin.gif
Irena
Wow. Sounds like you did your research! I've never heard of this "ougonjutsu" before. xD

From what I can remember off the top of my head, your theory is interesting and makes sense so far. I recall Marcoh saying to Envy that he believed the Homunculi were planning to turn Amestris into a P. stone, to which Envy replied something along the lines of, "So close, but you're half right."

We don't really know what Father's ultimate plan is, nor what the sacrifices are for. The eclipse is obviously significant, but again, we don't know why. (although I like your idea about the sun and the moon.)
Forsaken Love
interesting about your theory of the eclipse, i allways assumed it represented 'the lion consuming the sun' meaning philosphers stone, I do see one flaw in your theory though, and thats the reverse transmutation circle, which I thought hoho was using to sabotage fathers circle, which is what he was doing when he went to r@andom places and poured some of his ps on the ground, also this circle which mei and co discovered i thought was put into effect when marcoh broke down envy, and as mei said that was the circle created when combing both xing and amestrias' alchemy, father combining them both in the original circle- ah this is confusing XD I do agree about father and truth though, the whole thing in gluttoney's stomach about the gods coming to earth and such, I think father wants to become some kind of God, I allways saw him as some kinda of antithesis to truth particually with his current appearance, I think if we understood how father was created in the first place, his goals might become a bit clearer
Kaori Ayanami
I may be wrong, but I think that Xerxes nationwide transmutation circle was activated during an eclipse, too. I mean, between the proposal of Father and the actual transmutation a long time went by. Why would it be so, besides waiting for the canals and killings to be made? Or maybe I'm wrong and the waiting was only because of those preparations. Anyway, I do think it seems to be an eclipse during that transmutation.
LastoftheDamned
Yaay Comments! And these are pretty interesting...

@Irena
Wow. Sounds like you did your research! I've never heard of this "ougonjutsu" before. xD

From what I can remember off the top of my head, your theory is interesting and makes sense so far. I recall Marcoh saying to Envy that he believed the Homunculi were planning to turn Amestris into a P. stone, to which Envy replied something along the lines of, "So close, but you're half right."

We don't really know what Father's ultimate plan is, nor what the sacrifices are for. The eclipse is obviously significant, but again, we don't know why. (although I like your idea about the sun and the moon.)



I'd love to take credit for ougonjutsu but everything I know about it comes from the Xingese Alchemy Discussion, great stuff. That's great that you remember envy saying that too because I was tempted to refer to it and chickened out due to my poor memory. As for my theory, I can't stress enough just how speculative this is until the manga is over so I could be completely wrong about all of this; guess we'll find out :lol: .

@Forsaken Love

interesting about your theory of the eclipse, i allways assumed it represented 'the lion consuming the sun' meaning philosphers stone, I do see one flaw in your theory though, and thats the reverse transmutation circle, which I thought hoho was using to sabotage fathers circle, which is what he was doing when he went to r@andom places and poured some of his ps on the ground, also this circle which mei and co discovered i thought was put into effect when marcoh broke down envy, and as mei said that was the circle created when combing both xing and amestrias' alchemy, father combining them both in the original circle- ah this is confusing XD I do agree about father and truth though, the whole thing in gluttoney's stomach about the gods coming to earth and such, I think father wants to become some kind of God, I allways saw him as some kinda of antithesis to truth particually with his current appearance, I think if we understood how father was created in the first place, his goals might become a bit clearer

hmmm I didn't consider hoho's actions at All tbh. That could be his ace in the hole and why he didn't seem very frightened about losing to father. As for Mei and Al's discovery in Scarbro's book I feel that it helps my theory. They were only able to figure out the second transmutation circle with practitioners of both alchemies present, so if my theory is true, it required the unintended unity of the knowledge of both alchemies (ie the knowledge of ougonjutsu) to construct the circle. I am also very interested in father's creation. It would really seal some holes in an ougonjutsu theory that I have...

@Kaori Ayanami

I may be wrong, but I think that Xerxes nationwide transmutation circle was activated during an eclipse, too. I mean, between the proposal of Father and the actual transmutation a long time went by. Why would it be so, besides waiting for the canals and killings to be made? Or maybe I'm wrong and the waiting was only because of those preparations. Anyway, I do think it seems to be an eclipse during that transmutation.


I was thinking this too as I made the post but I re-read the chapter 2-3 weeks ago and I don't remember ever seeing a single panel of one. Your welcome to link me to the pic if I'm wrong though. The time gap doesn't seem too far of a stretch to me considering that the country was large enough to house over a million people. Plus I'd imagine the killing that they had to do in order to create the required bloody crests took some time.
Sannom
Question : isn't that alchemy-meet-elixirology circle the "counter" one, the one that Hohenheim supposedly created on top of Father's one to negate it if it ever was activated? I can't believe Father would create an elixirology circle yet being surprised when someone uses it in his sanctuary...
LastoftheDamned
QUOTE (Sannom @ Nov 11 2009, 04:34 PM) *
Question : isn't that alchemy-meet-elixirology circle the "counter" one, the one that Hohenheim supposedly created on top of Father's one to negate it if it ever was activated? I can't believe Father would create an elixirology circle yet being surprised when someone uses it in his sanctuary...


My explanation for father's first meeting with the elrics is a little long so bear with me...

Going on the assumption that Xingese and Amestrian Alchemy are halves of the bigger ougonjutsu I think that ougonjutsu was used by the Xerxians. Being from Xerxes, hoho and father would both know this true form of alchemy and would go on to teach others as the philosophers of the East and West after the country's end. Hoho did not want a repeat of Xerxes and chose not to teach the Xingese aspects of Xerxian alchemy that dealt with human transmutation and soul based alchemy. Father, on the other hand, did the exact opposite, teaching the amestrians solely in a soul based alchemical context. He hooked himself to. A grid of pipes constructed underneath the country and used the countless souls inside him to fuel every transmutation in Amestris. I think he wanted Amestrian Alchemy to focus only on human transmutation in order to increase the likelihood of alchemists seeing the truth and becoming useful sacrifices in his endeavors. By the two philosophers' actions, Xerxian alchemy was split in two between Xing and Amestris. Xingese alchemy lacks the knowledge of human transmutation as hoho intended which is why they have to leave their country to find a philosophers stone instead of having the knowledge to make one themselves. Amestrian alchemy draws from father's philosopher stone and completely ignores the earth's chi as father intended. This is why father can turn it off at will, he is the generator. People like Mei, hoho, or scar, who know either Xingese or Xerxian alchemy are able to transmute from the earth as it was originally intended.
Father was surprised that scar, an Amestrian, was able to transmute without him since it would require knowledge of Xingese/Xerxian alchemy, something he expressly denied Amestris.
zonkiethegreat
WOW...this is blowing my mind. LOL
Kaori Ayanami
QUOTE (LastoftheDamned @ Nov 12 2009, 12:46 AM) *
I was thinking this too as I made the post but I re-read the chapter 2-3 weeks ago and I don't remember ever seeing a single panel of one.

I re-read chapter 75 and no, there doesn't seem to be an eclipse. But yet, it isn't clear if everything happens at day or night... only some rays of the sun entering the palace after the transmutation can be taken as a point of reference. There is a bright heavenly body above the country during the transmutation, it could be either the sun or the moon. In my opinion, it is the moon: didn't the Elric brothers speak about the country that disappeared in one night? And, most importantly, does it matter if it was done at day or night? Too many questions, I know. tongue.gif

Yes, I'm aware that it's not directly related to the topic, but I believe that we can learn more about Amestris nationwide transmutation circle if we compare it to the Xerxes' one.
heartwing713
My personal theory on the importance of the eclipse in the Amestris transmutation circle is this: I think father is using actual physical elements of nature to for the circle. For example, the sun and moon symbol was at the top of the xerxes circle if i remember correctly. And the eclipse is in the sky. The lion devouring the sun symbolized throwing god to the earth and becoming him. The gate opening transmutation circle in chapter 101 is underground, and someone (i don't remember who) once said that human transmutation wouldn't succeed because it was like trying to become god. These are loose parallels, but I think they're a valid difference in the Amestrian plot verses the Xerxes one.
LastoftheDamned
@Kaori Ayanami
I definitely agree. Envy has suggested many times that what happened to Xerxes is related to what is planned now but he also alludes to it being different. This difference really makes me anxious for every chapter.

@heartwing713
That's actually a great point now that I think about it. This could just be father's second atempt but on a much larger scale with celestial bodies being used in the process. I'd be really interested in hearing what you think the special sacrifices are for.
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