True, Goral...about ignoring my views, not understanding them, and realizing that you can't change them.
Actually, killing innocent people has affected Roy in negative ways. He will always be haunted by those deaths (Roy wouldn't be the moral human he is if he did not think about it). He will always feel guilt. He has lost the freedom to choose his fate (he wants the planned democratic government to try him for war crimes, with the possibility of execution).
A person with his morality and immoral record must often worry about the day he might lose that morality. Just because 'the worse' hasn't happened before doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. Thus, Roy strives to make sure that loss never happens. If he has to kill, it must be for the noblest of reasons. So when he killed Lust, his fury was based on 'Don't you dare touch Riza and Al!' (And Bradley saw this act was done to protect Riza). During the revolt, Roy used his alchemy to defeat but not kill the opposing soldiers.

But right now Roy is not thinking about the other people or anything near his principles. He is only feeling his own personal pain and anger over the loss of Maes Hughes (who, I definitely believe, would never condone this action), and throws all that rage on the person possible. It's his own selfish vendetta, and selfishness is not noble. Killing done under such negative emotions spell B-A-D for the killer; Riza, Scar, and Edward see that.
Sure, Roy slaying Envy will eventually lead to good things for the world, like AnimeRoy slaying AnimeBradley did for the anime world...except AnimeRoy (and MangaRoy as well).
As for no one else getting hurt, well let's just see first (AnimeRoy's revenge on Bradley didn't hurt anyone else...except AnimeSelim).

Yes it's different this time: Roy, the idealist who had been forced to kill for orders & protection, wants to kill out of selfish rage.

But I suppose you'll ignore my explanations. I'm probably describing life to an unborn child.

Hmm...so I missed this whole Roy and Scar argument.

But from what I've been reading...my opinion is this:

If Roy kills Envy out of revenge...it's honestly, really hard to decide how exactly that would affect him.

It would either grant him a moment of peace he needs during this battle. He could finally breathe knowing he's killed the person responsible not just for Hughes' death, but the deaths of thousands. The person responsible for starting the Ishbal war (does he know this yet? I forget).

Or...like Scar suggested, the revenge will eat at his soul. Yes, Roy has killed before. Yes, the fact he's killed innocent people still haunts him and it seems nothing can be worse than that...but like Claudius suggested...Revenge stories never end well ("V for Vendetta" being an odd exception).

I can't WAIT for the next chapter, because I'm dying to see how this plays out.

I think that Roy knows that he's stepping into the darkness. Before this, Riza is usually in control and Roy always listen to her advice. It's just that Maes's death is too strong for him to pull himself out.

Another way to save Roy is on Riza's shoulders. Just knock him out from the back. No negotiation is necessary here.

Either you're using straw-man argument and are trolling or you really can't read with comprehension. Yes, the deaths he had caused affected him but he didn't become worse person, on the contrary. Because his conscience haunts him and because he deeply regrets it I doubt he will make the same mistake again, i.e. he became better person.

Below you will find that I've commented on every sentence in your quote:

IE he became better person. You're shooting your own feet.
Ed knows about this only as an observer, i.e. almost nothing. He knows nothing about Roy nor about killing. Scar knows about revenge but only blind revenge and nothing about Roy. Only because it affected him like that doesn't mean that it would affect Roy (and I'm not sure if he knows what Roy did in Ishvar. Mustang was the one that killed last Ishvaran and an old man at that). I've written before why he can't understand him. Riza knows a lot about Roy but not much about revenge.
You can't know what Roy is thinking about or what he feels. Your interpretation is as good as mine. Just because he shouted at Riza (oh, no! He shouted at some female!) doesn't mean that he wants to kill Envy only for his selfish reason. In that situation that's exactly what he can do. Why should he concede when he has most reasons to kill him? Because someone tells him to?
As for Hughes, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Why would he oppose? He's not a sissy like Ed and killing Envy would be as easy as snapping fingers so why should Mustang be bothered by this death more than he was when he killed innocent people? Hughes would want to kill Envy himself and if Mustang was killed I would bet that he would want to avenge his friend. Maybe if he saw that he stands no chance, he would give up on doing it himself but I'm sure he would kill her if she was in her shrimp form.
Here we go again... Man, you really should put some work into reading with comprehension. He wasn't forced, he was ordered to. To force =/= to order (I'm shocked I even have to explain it to you). He could disobey orders, simple as that. Even more so because he knew he wasn't defending his country, it was one sided battle, an overkill and a waste of everything. He made people suffer and by killing Envy he won't make anyone else suffer. Even if you're right that Mustang wants to kill Envy ONLY for his own selfish reason it's still better than to slaughter innocent people. On the one hand we would have temporarily insane person that wanted to kill mass murderer, on the other hand perfectly sane that killed defenseless people because he was told to. Just because he regrets the deaths of people he killed, it doesn't make his crime any lesser. And it looks to me that the reason why Mustang didn't disobey orders was selfish. If he did, he could have ruined his career.
The problem is you've been ignoring my explanations all along. And your explanation are all based on the premise that: "killing Envy will change Mustang in a bad way" even though I've proved that it's implausible. You can further naively believe that 30 years old man, very experienced at that, can change just like that. Whatever.

Thank you Goral. I think this is the last time I'll reply to anything you say ever again. I suppose I could argue your words (perhaps...), but then you'll probably resort to more subtle ways to be insulting. I'm not done with this thread, this chapter's situation, or forum, but I'm finished with you. Goodbye.

@Claudius - Thank you so much for patiently posting all your responses. I can guess that this discussion might have been rather "testing," but I really enjoyed reading your responses and further analysis, and I appreciate your posting those.

@Goral - Please respect Claudius's wishes, and agree to disagree, and end this discussion with her here.

LMAO It kinda reminds me of Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End when all their gun powder is wet, so they can't shoot each other on the ship and one of the dumb pirates goes "WE CAN STILL USE THEM AS CLUBS!"

I could just picture Riza giving him a nice whack! in the back of the head with one of her guns. Knock him out, drag him off and everything will be just fine! xD

I'm writing as I see it.
I was writing about changes of character (to become worse person, i.e. to have character changed) and you twisted my words to "it affected him negatively". The thing is that the fact his conscience is pricked makes him a better character. And your arguments "he will always feel guilt and be haunted by those deaths" can be considered as something negative BUT it did change him for the better and I was writing THIS. Seriously, am I the only one that sees Claudius twisted my words?
From this:
If killing didn't change him for worse then killing again someone that actually deserves wouldn't either (even more so).
It became this:
Actually, killing innocent people has affected Roy in negative ways.

And yes, if you're repeating the same arguments again and again, neglecting my counter-arguments and assuming that "to force"="to order" then you can't blame me for writing the truth.

I'm glad you're not going to reply to my posts anymore because discussing with you is pointless. That's why I didn't reply to you the second time until you've provoked me again (provoked by twisting my words and later you did it AGAIN, hence my harsh response). On the other hand discussing with someone that was using reasonable and convincing arguments like Sannom was a pleasure.
And to end this permanently, as I've written before most probably Mustang won't kill Envy. If he wanted to kill Envy he would have done it and Ed could do nothing about it. After all he can control his flames very well as we've seen him burning Envy's eyes. So yes, I'll be a bit disappointed (because knowing Arakawa even such cliche will be presented in a fresh way).

I think there's a way to make Roy ignore Envy without even touching him (no kisses, no whacks). If Riza told him she's pregnant it could be interesting...

I can't see Arakawa just randomly throwing in Riza saying "Colonel, I'm pregnant." That's not even like Riza, and besides that, I was just trying to lighten the conversation since you've taken it to such an extreme level of ignorance. I was just trying to provide the humor.

Chill out, guys. Be friend!

If Arakawa sensei is going to put a line for Riza saying that 'Colonel, I'm pregnant', then the following action may be Riza whacks Roy at the back with her gun and add another line, 'Just kidding."

I'll laugh real hard if that happens.

@Kyellin
I know it's implausible, although I would like to see that. Besides, Arakawa putted in zombies so everything is possible. And I would entirely agree with you that it's not like Riza if I hadn't read recent chapter.
OK, text "I'm pregnant" is on entirely different level but the situation is more severe too. If Roy won't kill Envy I would like it to end with my jaw on the floor.
And Riza can be direct, as we've seen her conversation with Ed in volume 15. The reason she doesn't make a move towards Roy is because the time for that isn't right and won't be until Roy is closer to his goal and Amestris becomes a safer place. /IMO

@Kyelinn - Please stop your personal attack of another poster. If you think some opinions posted here are in "extreme level of ignorance," then you can post and prove that, in your opinion, how certain opinion/point/view posted here can be classified as "ignorant." That would be a "discussion," not a name-calling, IMO. IMO, what you're doing is classified as a name-calling and inciting of other poster. Please stop.

o_o How on earth was I personally attacking anybody? I'm just saying that I don't think it's fair that Goral can stand around and insult Claudius by saying what he did and now you're telling me I'm in the wrong because he continued to be ignorant and still quote him and provoke him? Telling somebody they can't read with comprehension is more of an insult than what I just said...Right, whatever...I'm done in this discussion.

In this particular case, with your comment: "since you've taken it to such an extreme level of ignorance. ..."


That may be what you meant to discuss (and I may not necessarily disagree with your observation,) but, what you posted was commenting on Goral's posts as "since you've taken it to such an extreme level of ignorance..."


Regardless of the motive, we do not recommend members taking some sort of "forum justice" on own hands based on his/her own judgment and opinion of some poster's behavior on our board, then him/herself carrying on with his/her own brand of "execution," such as, starts acting in inciting manners toward that poster, or name-calling that poster in the name of "justice."

Instead, if you see some poster is, in your observation, posting in a manner that is against our forum decorum, please report that to the board by posting your report on Forum Police Station, and then our board staff will take a look at the situation, and decide on the action (if any) accordingly. We are human and we are not perfect, and as such, the action(s) taken by the board (if any) may not always satisfy your thirst for your kind of "justice," but we/I try our best to maintain the order on our board, and make this board a nice place to post and exchange our opinions.

@__@ hefty arguments going on...

Ahem...So...few more weeks to the new chapter! And hopefully all of this will be answered in one way or another! ;

I'm hoping Gling shows-up XP. I miss the guy and if he plans to take Central he has to be somewhere...o.o

Hey, you're right. He just might show up pretty soon. He has too at some point.Too be honest, I've missed him, too! XD I hope Ranfan finds him.

Hm, true, it's two more weeks or so. Yeah, answered...And then it turns out that chapter 95 will show us everyone besides Roy xP Gah, I swear, I'd go and kill some cows xP

Agreed. There are plenty of cows in my back yard to choose from....

Going back to an earlier mention of Wrath here. I'm of the opinion 'he's not dead, he'll be back'. A while ago I was getting a wee bit worried that he'd turn up in Eastern again soon and take out Grumman- after all, he's helped Roy and co. so much... but I think (hope) that it won't go that way.

That reminds me, do you reckon Rebecca joined the 'We're going to Central to help Mustang' team under Grumman's orders or Havoc's influence?

That's why I said in another thread that I'd start an official Hunt for the Cow.
Well, if the chap is out early that would mean there's no Roy... ARGH.
No, it's May, should be a good chapter ~

right. Positive thoughts, positive thoughts =D
Oh noes, what if...

Cows are sweet (well, except when they charge) and cute animals, if a little bit too big! Nobody should hunt them!

Yeah, cows are cool, just not when they give you cliffhangers.

@KidAkabane: well said, I totally agree with you

Oi, looks at all these lovely pages.... >.<;

Not meaning to delve to deeply back into the argument, but my own opinion on the mustang-killing-envy thing has been kinda muddled with in the last few weeks, but for the moment I've come to this conclusion. If he DID kill him, it should be out of anger of EVERYTHING Envy has done, and to be one step closer to defeating the Homunculi and rising to the top. If he DOESN'T, the reason should be that he still has a goal to fulfill, and that is to lead the country as fuhrer and make the country a better place (as Hawkeye said to Ed, aboloshing the State Alchemist system among changing the form of government to a democracy), and he can't do that if he completely loses himself and his ideals. It doesn't mean he can't take offensive action whenever there is a enemy threat or a threat in general (when/if he gets back to his senses), he just has to do it for the sake of his country and friends, not himself. Yes, Hughes was a great guy, and we all loved him, but I'm positive he wouldn't want to be avenged in that way. He would probably be satisfied enough if Mustang made it too the top as he promised he would. That, and getting a wife (oh, Hawkeye, I think I hear the wedding bells calling for you..). *is a dork LAWL*

anyway, that's just my opinion. I really mean in no way to fan the dying flames of the little war going on a few pages back, but it really is an interesting topic.

Moving on, if Arakawa pulls something like switching characters or even a flashback, I'm going to join in on the cow massacre. D:< She probably won't, though, and can't, because if you think about it, all the main characters are gathered, except for Al (who's currently on his way to Central) and Izumi (who has been locked up in Briggs for about a year's worth of chapters with no word from her), who has been named a potential candidate. But Izumi's not so big a character she won't take over an entire chapter, as pwnsme as she is.

Seriously, if Arakawa sensei switches the characters, you guys can count me in too. Who has the sign up sheet?

@spectator: Oh! Oh! I do! *produces list, signs name* Okay, who's in?

Me! Me! *raise both hands and legs up high*

Maybe we can submit the sheet to Arakawa sensei to blackmail her.

Sounds good! We'll have a small army to invade her home in notime!

I know! Scar can be our leader! He's the pro at butchering the cow.

Yes, and we can kidnap Ed too help!

Add me in dears, I'd get my chainsaw with me *evil laugh*

Count me in.

Count me in, Mates!

Though...it should be fine...we won't have to go on a killing rampage XD She'll please us for sure....

Add me to the list! I've got a really good butcher's knife I can use.... >:D

Excellent, excellent.... >:D

Me too, me too!
But I think we should make her finish FMA and Demons of Shanghai! first, then we can do it!

I thought about it, if there is no Roy in the next chapter we will get something superb-awesome for sure^^

I think I would break hell loose if there's no Roy, believe me >D

It's so scary to read you, guys, you all are so brutal =D
I don't have knives, I only have guns... take me with you to the cow hunt? =3

Very well, grab a torch and pitchfork while you're at it and the mob shall be on its way. >:D

This may not have anything to do with the chapter... but am I the only one here who's noticed the Izumi looks, like, JUST like Roy? I mean,Roy was adopted, so maybe there's a connection there.
What do YOU think?

Personally, I always thought Pride looked freakishly like Roy. As though he could be his son or a younger version of him....

I thought I was the only one who thought this! I don't know. Maybe it's just nothing and we are just over-acting.

Hagaren_4ever^, I have noticed that. Odd.

That. Is. One. Scary. Thought.
*shudders*

Pride is one of the two Most Wanted persons in my to-kill list. The jerk dared scare Riza to death... (but thanks to him we have had the wonderful florist phone call XD)

*gigglesnort*

"Roy...I am your father! Oh wait, my bad. I meant Fuer." XD

*loves that avatar*

This leads me to think of the scene in Star Wars.

Imagine Roy and Pride's stand off...

"I am your father!"

"NO!!!!!"



Or between Roy and Wrath

Allow me to be the John Hancock of this cow rampage group and sign my name as large as I possibly can on this list

As for the Pride thing OMG that'd be hilariously WRONG. And I agree with amestris star with the flourist scene LOL That one kept me alive for the year that Roy and Riza didn't have many lines.

Okay, we all agree that Selim looks like Roy. But, IZUMI! C'mon! Just LOOK!
http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/23/12/
http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/31/11/

There glare looks exactly the same there, and look.

http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/4/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/21/17/

Of course, that could just be Arakawa's style, but she's usually pretty good at adding variety to each of her characters, unless there's a reason not to. But I think I'm being too observant again.

I AGREE WITH YOU. It's insane! But then again, Riza and Winry look alot alike to so...yeah. Maybe its just a coincidence.

The more the better on the listings, we're quite a group now, I must say Hiromu should be afraid >D

Oh God, don't remind me of THAT. It was torture, the almost-year when Roy and Riza barely featured in any of the chapters... It was a nightmare, I remember seeing each new chapter and saying... oh no, not again!
That's why this time if Roy/Riza don't feature in the next episode, I'll seriously kill something/someone/whatever.

At the Roy/Izumi/Pride resemblance, I just think it's Hiromu's style

I don't know...since a certain corrupted alchemist's death in volume 2, chapter five; I've seen several look-alikes of him in a few chapters here and there; the most memorable being the ones at Elicia's birthday party; there was like...him from the back and a child version! O.O;

As for Roy and Izumi looking alike thing though - YES!!
Seriously, I'm another person who's thought along those same lines ever since watching the original anime; they kind of looked alike then and they still look alike in the manga.

And while this may not be canon...I can remember that me and a friend of mine actually made Roy and Izumi cousins in our role-plays.
Although they weren't exactly close and Izumi was otherwise distant; but it would seriously be awesome if they were related.

Haven't you noticed how both of them were responsible for the boys as well?
Izumi was almost like a surrogate mother...and then there's Roy who could almost be like a surrogate father.