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Popogeejo
I decided to bring a classic debate up here.
America and it's fixation with guns has always confused and interested me and I'd like to hear your opinions on the following subjects:
  • Why does the USA have such an affinity with guns?
  • Should guns be available to the American public?
  • Anything else that falls in the subject really.

and for Non-USA members:
  • Should police in your carry guns even if the public can't?
  • Should guns be available to the public and to what degree (e.g: Should it just be hunting riffles or would hand guns and such also be available?)
Note: If I read a certain reason for "Why America has such an affinity with guns" I will go off on a rant.
Tombow
@Popo - Just for the clarification, are you talking just hand guns, or are you including rifles also?
Popogeejo
Anything that can be defined as a "gun" From shot guns to revolvers to hunting rifles.
ed_drink_your_milk
Well, it is part of our Constitution, 2nd Amendment actually. It doesn't fit exactly with modern day seeing as there is no longer a need for a militia because we have a formal military, but that doesn't fully negate the fact that it does say that "the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." And honestly, I have a hard time answering this question, because I don't think we have much more of an 'affinity' than many other nations, we just tend to blow things out of proportion here in the US.
Kenji
QUOTE
Should police in your carry guns even if the public can't?
Yes. Using guns is the most efficient way to warn criminals to surrender.

QUOTE
Should guns be available to the public and to what degree


I agree, but only limited to small caliber hand guns for protection/self defense. Shotguns and rifles should be restricted to military use. The enforcement should be strict too in giving out license and permits to own guns.
quiddityofquid
It would probably be safer if people were not allowed to own guns, but being as this is the USA, there would probably be a huge problem where people would b*tch about how their rights were being restricted, and the ones who shouldn't have guns would manage to get their hands on them anyway. Although given how many rights we seem to be willing to give up these days, maybe the first wouldn't be such a problem...
There's no problem with owning guns if you use them responsibly, but there are too many idiots oit there to expect that.
Carnal Malefactor
You can argue about the 2nd Amendment all you want, but the fact is that Gun control is a white elephant.
It sounds nice and utopian in theory, but there's no way for it to ever work like it's supposed to. And furthermore, banning private gun ownership won't solve the problem of violence in this country. It's a broad-reachng social disease that causes gun violence, and violence in society won't go away if you take away one type of implement.
Astria
Question: what restrictions are there on people owning guns in America? Obviously, there's some age-limit, but is it determined by any other factors?
ἀρχή
Given where we are now, gun control is not realistic. We're so used to being able to get them that even if they became illegal or more restricted, their availability will always outpace any regulation efforts.

In addition, many of the people who do the bad things with guns are usually the people who are not legally owning guns anyway (i.e. the current laws cannot curb the violence caused by guns).

what pisses me off is when outdated arguments about the 2nd amendment are used to justify the allowability of guns. Fact is that Americans can't do without the ability to make stupid choices and then blame the companies that sold us the merchandise for our own foolish actions.
Envy's lil' miniskirt
There is a saying that goes "When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" This is true. Assult rifles are outlawed in CA yet people are still getting them and commiting crimes with them.

People act as if you get rid of all guns then crime and violence will stop, this of course is not true. If they don't have a gun they'll use a knife, if they don't have a knife they'll use a baseball bat, if they don't have a baseball bat they'll use a table lamp etc, etc, etc.

Guns themselves are not wrong what is wrong is peoples attitudes concerning guns. If the attitude was using guns for sport and protection wether than making someone look like a "man" and be a tough guy there would probably be less crime.

Like they said in the movie Friday. "Everybodys afraid to take a punch."
esrz22
I read the title as the Ursa And Guns, so now I have a mental image of bears with guns.

That sounds like something either Gary Larson or Calvin would create.
Scythoro
In light of recent events (VT shooting), some sort of new gun control policy needs to be enforced.
Popogeejo
QUOTE(Scythoro @ Apr 17 2007, 04:27 AM) [snapback]531387[/snapback]
In light of recent events (VT shooting), some sort of new gun control policy needs to be enforced.

Yay for hind sight!
Honestly I'm amazed it took 30+ people to be gunned down in a single spree for you to think this.
Kenji
Seeing these photos just makes me feel very bad

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&a...09010&w=192

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&a...09011&w=450

http://www.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&a...08900&w=450

Seriously, a more stricter gun enforcement control in USA has to be taken as fast as possible. I don't care if the gunman went on rampage at Microsoft HQ but shooting innocent students are just so...stupid.
Carnal Malefactor
But the gunman apparently obtained his weapon[s] on the black market. Stricter gun control wouldn't have done a damn thing to stop this.
Popogeejo
QUOTE(Abstruse Eulogy @ Apr 17 2007, 06:04 AM) [snapback]531494[/snapback]
But the gunman apparently obtained his weapon[s] on the black market. Stricter gun control wouldn't have done a damn thing to stop this.

Yeah, but it wouldn't do any harm all the same.
Carnal Malefactor
QUOTE(esrz22 @ Apr 13 2007, 04:21 PM) [snapback]529845[/snapback]
I read the title as the Ursa And Guns, so now I have a mental image of bears with guns.

That sounds like something either Gary Larson or Calvin would create.

What, you mean like this?


QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Apr 17 2007, 01:14 AM) [snapback]531504[/snapback]
QUOTE(Abstruse Eulogy @ Apr 17 2007, 06:04 AM) [snapback]531494[/snapback]
But the gunman apparently obtained his weapon[s] on the black market. Stricter gun control wouldn't have done a damn thing to stop this.

Yeah, but it wouldn't do any harm all the same.

But if one of those first handful of students he shot was carrying a concealed firearm, he could've been taken down, preventing most of the casualties. Think about it.
Popogeejo
QUOTE(Abstruse Eulogy @ Apr 17 2007, 06:16 AM) [snapback]531505[/snapback]
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Apr 17 2007, 01:14 AM) [snapback]531504[/snapback]
QUOTE(Abstruse Eulogy @ Apr 17 2007, 06:04 AM) [snapback]531494[/snapback]
But the gunman apparently obtained his weapon[s] on the black market. Stricter gun control wouldn't have done a damn thing to stop this.

Yeah, but it wouldn't do any harm all the same.

But if one of those first handful of students he shot was carrying a concealed firearm, he could've been taken down, preventing most of the casualties. Think about it.

Tighter gun regulations wouldn't necessarily mean banning personal weapons. Why have it concealed though? Surely if you had the guns on clear display it would be safer. People would be less inclined to start anything if they knew that other people would be able to deal with them.
Carnal Malefactor
What part of 'illegal arms market' do you not understand? All the regulations in the world wouldn't do a thing to prevent an incident such as this.
Popogeejo
QUOTE(Abstruse Eulogy @ Apr 17 2007, 06:23 AM) [snapback]531512[/snapback]
What part of 'illegal arms market' do you not understand? All the regulations in the world wouldn't do a thing to prevent an incident such as this.

Who said anything about preventing the incident?
Yes, criminal would not follow the regulations, we know this, but if other people did and had their legally acquired guns on display maybe such things could be prevented in the future. You would have to be stupid to wave a gun about when there are other people who are plainly/clearly armed.
Carnal Malefactor
But see, mandating people to carry guns in plain view would be both impractical and unconstitutional [right to privacy and all that].
Popogeejo
Ah, I'm not familiar with American gun laws and Privacy laws.
I've be under the impression that you can't carry a gun in public unless you have a license for a concealed weapon.
Going from this I assumed that the weapon must remain concealed unless it's being used for whatever reason.
My idea, then, was to make it legal to carry the gun but not necessitate that it be concealed.

I guess I need to learn me some American law.
Envy's lil' miniskirt
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Apr 16 2007, 10:14 PM) [snapback]531504[/snapback]
QUOTE(Abstruse Eulogy @ Apr 17 2007, 06:04 AM) [snapback]531494[/snapback]
But the gunman apparently obtained his weapon[s] on the black market. Stricter gun control wouldn't have done a damn thing to stop this.

Yeah, but it wouldn't do any harm all the same.

"If guns are outlawed the only outlaws will have guns"

QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Apr 16 2007, 10:44 PM) [snapback]531528[/snapback]
I guess I need to learn me some American law.

Do you think?

It's just like I said in my last post and all along. If there as a chance that the person you are planning to fire a gun at might just shoot back, crimes involving guns would go way down.

However it sounds like this person was probably insane so my point in this case might be moot.
Popogeejo
QUOTE
"If guns are outlawed the only outlaws will have guns"

No where in my post did I say guns should be outlawed....
Regulations doesn't mean making things illegal.
Envy's lil' miniskirt
They already are regulated and in some places like San Francisco banned. It doesn't change peoples mindset about commiting violent acts.
Popogeejo
So is their anything you would change about the current gun laws? Maybe make bullets regulated or some such?

QUOTE
Do you think?

Am I ever going to use the info beyond this debate in the future? Highly unlikely so no, I don't think I really need to learn American guns laws, it would be nice though if my misconceptions were simply cleared up though smile.gif
Chiyo
Its going to be harder for a nation like us to understand the thinking behind allowing weapons. After watching what the IRA did in Ireland and the UK for so many years, its hard to accept guns as anything but a weapon to kill people. Thats not saying that everyone is predesposed to kill just because they have a gun, and I realise the weapons the IRA obtained were illegal...but because people in this nation will never be able to defend themselves with a gun the idea of anyone having one is all a bit foreign.
Scythoro
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Apr 17 2007, 12:33 AM) [snapback]531521[/snapback]
Who said anything about preventing the incident?
Yes, criminal would not follow the regulations, we know this, but if other people did and had their legally acquired guns on display maybe such things could be prevented in the future. You would have to be stupid to wave a gun about when there are other people who are plainly/clearly armed.


I think you have a good point here, but you can never be quite sure to whether it would lead to more shootings or less. Other than the uncertainty, I really see potential to allowing responsible people to carry sidearms. However, those who did carry sidearms would have to go through a rigorous psychological and background evaluation. They would also obviously need to be proficient with a weapon and the safety of the weapon.
helmet boy
You have outdated guns laws created to keep the English at bay, and the only reason their kept is so if you get invaded, areas the enemy capture are going to put up with partisans that have already been effectively armed and cause chaos behind the enemy lines, giving any US force levrage over the enemy.
Scythoro
QUOTE(helmet boy @ Apr 17 2007, 11:27 AM) [snapback]531699[/snapback]
You have outdated guns laws created to keep the English at bay, and the only reason their kept is so if you get invaded, areas the enemy capture are going to put up with partisans that have already been effectively armed and cause chaos behind the enemy lines, giving any US force levrage over the enemy.


But the English are coming back ph34r.gif . Didn't you see the recent South Park episode unsure.gif . We have to prepare now.
Vash_the_Gunslinger
I don't like the way guns are easy to buy and all that. Guns are cheap for what they can take away: life. I went to the mall the other day and went inside the sports store. They had a gun department and I checked it out. There were barrels that were a foot long on handguns. These handguns could have been bought for a measly amount of money. Not to mention all the other guns in the store. I enjoy my freedom and such, but there needs to be a little bit more tightening of the constitution on this. Yes, you can have the right to bear arms, but something else needs to be done. What I am talking about, for example, is the ability to buy a gun, legally, that can fire God knows how many rounds a minute. All it takes is one bullet. Rifles and small handguns I am okay with, but magnums the size near the size of an arm and fully-automatic guns is a different story.

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