I recently heard people talk about how Illinois senator and presidential candidate Barack Obama can't really be considered 'black' because, while he is of African descent [his father was a Kenyan immigrant], he is not descended from West African slaves, and therefore has not lived the 'black experience' in America.

This got me thinking about other ways in which race, particularly in the American melting pot, has been overshadowed by culture.

Take the idea of the 'Uncle Tom'. Because of a long history of having to fight tooth and nail for equal rights and social advancement, it seems to me that many black Americans have fallen into the trap of not expecting themselves to succeed. The last couple of generations in particular have largely adopted a 'ghetto' culture, wherein poverty and crime seem to be glorified rather than repudiated. In many circles, those who reject such a culture are seen as sell-outs or 'Uncle Toms'. Someone of a black heritage, but wielding a great deal of power and disagreeing with the typical beliefs of blacks [i.e. Condolleezza Rice, Colin Powell] are often not even seen as really being black.

The same is true of Asians and Hispanics who adopt a stereotypically 'white' culture and world view in this country. Often, they are seen as pariahs by members of their own race.

The only race this doesn't seem to apply to is whites, who seem capable of being culturally mercurial, but still reap the benefits of being seen as white, no matter how they act. Though in some corners, it seems as though mainstream whites have begun to view those who do not 'act white' as a sort of underclass. In Great Britain, this seems to be the social niche 'chavs' occupy, though there is not yet a direct counterpart in the U.S. for such a group.

So the question is, do you see a member of a particular race that doesn't embody the norm of that race as becoming something other than what they were born as? Can you adopt a different race by adopting its cultural attributes, or does this merely alienate you from your own race?

I don't see the world in terms of race, I see it in terms of individuals. This isn't the bloody Borg or Zerg or some like-minded collection of hive workers; we're personalities, free radicals. I address people by their names, not their races.

It doesn't matter that Barack Obama wasn't descended from West African slaves, or that Condolleezza Rice is Republican (given away in the racial draft), what matters is that they are Barack and Condolleezza, and that's who they need to be.

That's a great way of seeing things, but unfortunately the world seldom agrees with you. In America, if you're non-white, the question of race hangs over everything you do if you're a public figure. Barack Obama isn't a particularly accomplished politician yet, so the racial question is that much more prevalent with him, because he is currently viewed above all else as the first truly electable African-American presidential candidate.

If the world doesn't see things that way, that's its problem, not mine. Race is a non-issue for me; we're all human beings, and that's enough. If I vote for someone, its going to be because I agree with their promise of leadership, not because of their race, gender, or even political party.

My vote is not affirmative action, it's deserved.

You remind me of a very young Stephen Colbert.

You speak truthiness, Abstruse.

Well, though I agree with Nepharski in that I don't see people by race, I do think that you can't change race because of your actions. This is a blessing and a curse, depending on how your race is treated, but I think that the whole point of race (and why I think people shouldn't be judged by it) is that it's something that an individual cannot control. It's not like a religion where you can convert. You can't convert to 'white'. It just can't be done. You are how you are born. There are things in your life that you can change and race isn't one of them. Which, like I said, is a perfect reason why people shouldn't be judged by thier race.

@ The original post about Whites having no boundaries- What about the subculture of 'Wiggers'? (though that seems to be more of a teenage phase than a social class.)

At the very least, there are racists who consider any whites who adopt other cultural aspects to be 'traitors.' Even if it isn't as great of a social hindrance, there are social stereotypes about white people who take interest in other cultures to the point of modifying their lives and behavior. The Wapanese are a small trendy group right now. More widely, those who adopt asian aspects of life are often seen as new age hippies. Those don't pose much more than an inconvenience, but the issue is still there.

(I had a few more paragraphs of thought on the subject, then said 'screw it' because my brain isn't in the best working order this evening.)

The point was that 'wiggers' aren't really treated as an underclass the way chavs are in Britain. They still receive all the benefits of being white while completely adopting black culture.

Well, race and social class are different topics (though they tend to be closely related). You can change your social class because that's more a measure of money and influence. Race is a physical characteristic and unless you want to be drastic *cough*Michael Jackson*cough*, you can't change it. (And yes, I think 'wiggers' are more of a teenage phase.)

But how far does culture go in defining racial attributes? Especially in an age in which multiracial people have become far more common. If you have a white parent an a black parent [presumably from differnet socio-economic backgrounds], but are raised with the values of one parent and not the other, does that make you more one race than the other?

To put it simply, does race only mean biology, or does it go beyond that?

Society started attaching attributes to different races, and thus, fixed stereotypes have developed. So, people can act 'black' or act 'white' and so on, but that still doesn't mean they are. Race is superficial. Look down. That's what race you are. Now, can you have the stereotypical attributes of another race? Yes. But that's your personality, not your race.

Ah, but again, you must look at the original question of whether Barack Obama [or someone with a similar background] can be considered black, regardless of what he or she looks like.

I'm not asking about the morality of judging someone by race. That's not the question.

I'm asking if race an culture are mutually exclusive, or inexorably bound.

I DO think you can adopt a different race by adopting it's cultural attributes. For example for there are some African-American Jews. But I don't think this really changes the race that you are. If your black your black. If your white your white. I think that your race is something that sticks to you forever, no matter what. Race is a family, tribe, or nation of the same people.

They are connected, and personally, I think Obama is black. Black isn't just an 'american experience'. There are black people all over the world and you don't have to have a black 'american experience' to be black in america. But yes, I neglected to add that Race isn't all superficial, there is history in it. Ex. I'm white, but I'm also Jewish and Irish, and I look it. I look like a white Irish Jew. And nothign I do can change that. I was going to say plastic surgery could, but then I realized, even that can't completely change race, because I would still be Jewish and Irish by heritage, which is part of my race. So, you're right, race isn't all looks, but it's still not something that can be changed.

As for culture, I think it has a smaller bond with race than heritage. I'll use myself as an example. I was raised in a suburb outside of Newark, and so there was a certain culture there that isn't here. I believe that culture is part heritage, (smaller) part race, and part habitat. So, a white person and a black person can share parts of the same culture, but they can't share race.

Okay, let me put it a different way.

Person A tells Person B that he does not like rap music.

Person B asks why.

Person A says, "Because I can't stand the way they act and the language they use."

Person B says, "Well, that's racist, because most black people act and talk like that."

Is it fair for Person B to call Person A racist for not liking elements typically ascribed to black culture?

No. It's not racist. It's personal opinion. And, personally, I think that Person B is making silly generalizations. Perons B is thinking that that's how most people black people talk and act because that is the most publicized and stereotypical view of blacks. They're the one being racist for putting an entire race in a tiny characteristic box.

I agree with ed_drink_your_milk. Person B is being very stereotype. Am black and don't speak in 'black' slang ( well maybe I'll say Yo once in awhile). Thinking about it just the other day, a Chinese boy was asking me if it's true that all African American people speak in a certain way.

I agree with Nepharski on all accounts. Growing up in California I was explosed to people of all races throughout my entire life so people are people to me.

One thing that does piss me off is hearing that someone, say a black person, is not black because they say, went to college and bettered themselves to get ahead in the world and therefore and abondoning their race. I feel this is BS. I've heard of black people being refered to as "acting white" because they don't act in a stereotypical fashion. This to me is not society keeping black people down but they themselves keeping each other down. Why is it wrong to want a better life?

Yes, I know many are decended from slaves but that doesn't mean you can't rise above that and go forth and conquor.

This business about people like Barack Obama not being black reeks of self segrigation. He is of African decent but so are the slaves that were forced to come over and wait on lazy white people. Are the people in Africa not black? Why are they different besides not being direct decendent of slaves?

I often wonder if political correctness has had some play in this. While we should embrace our culture when it makes someone narrowminded it does more harm that good.

Oh, and I'm using blacks and an example because I lived in Oakland Ca for 15 years which is prodominately black so this is something I had more experience with rather than Hispanic or Asian cultures.

There's my can of worms, have fun kids!

They're not saying he's not 'black'; they're saying he's not 'african american'. Or some such.

African American is a silly term anyhow.


I'm reminded of ninth grade when this girl I knew discovered the term "Oreo" and went around telling people what it meant like it was the best thing ever. Like, it was so funny and true, lolol, coz they're white on the inside and black on the outside, hahaha! (She's also the same girl who went around bragging to everyone she could about how her boyfriend was a Blood.)


Culture is a weird concept, especially when you get into a society like the US where there are people coming in from all over. Outside of a few elitist headcases, I don't think people get much grief for not being 'Irish enough' or not being 'German enough.'

Your race is defined by your skin color and ancestral history; your culture is defined by the effects of the society you live in as a whole. However, these should only show where you come from, not show who you are or where you're going.

And as for "African-America," I've yet to meet a single Black person who was offended by the term "Black." Not to mention Blacks live elsewhere than just in American or Africa. What about African-Britains?

When I say black I'm refering to what I've heard other black people say. They never say African American always black and don't elaborate on how said people are not black.

barack obama has lived in america and has black skin. his father isnt related to slaves in any way or whatnot but when people see him, they treat him like they would treat a black man. what is the the more important aspect of the african american experience; having dark skin or complaining about what happened to your great-great-grandparents? to claim that obama hasnt lived the "black experience" makes no sense. maybe his father didnt, but he has. Hes a first generation african-american and a black man whos lived most of his life in america. the fact that hes not from the hood doesnt change that.

im what people call a "banana", or yellow outside, white on the inside. to white people i'm uncultured and ackward, and to chinese people im an embaressment because I cant write chinese characters. you cant adopt a race you wernt born into, so dont try.

Come to think of it, nobody who's criticized Obama for not living "The Black Experiance" has lived it either. Unless, of course, they've convinced themselves The Man is hard at work, keeping 'em down, in which case I wash my hands of that matter.

I think we can all agree that this world would be a far better placed if we stopped focusing so fixatedly on what people's ancestors did, and what they themselves are doing.

Honestly, I don't think that most of people who claimed that he hasn't lived the "Black Experience" don't really mean it that way. He's in the running for the primaries, so of course, people against him need some 'dirt.' And they happened to have pressed the racial button and blew it out of proportion. (And, IMO, made it completely rediculous.) Anyway, even IF he hadn't lived it, it wouldn't make much of a difference. It's the president of the country, not the African-American heritage society.

And though I think it's wrong to judge people by thier ancestors, I think it's wrong to put the past completely behind you. Today, it seems to be one extreme or the other; either people forget the past entirely, or they judge others harshly about what thier great-great-grandmother did. Isn't there a happy medium to be achieved??

Well, I think it meant that his family didn't have the same stories to tell that the families descended from slaves did. They didn't have to endure the Jim Crow laws and the Civil Rights movement. They didn't experience the same process of assimilation into America that 'the black community' did.

Does Obama share racial characteristics with other African-Americans? Sure. Most of his values are also probably similar. But when he's on that election trail, he's not going to be able to give a speech at a black church, or in front of the NAACP and act like he's no different than his audience, he's going to have to use language much closer to that of a mainstream white candidate than someone like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.

All I have to say about this topic is that I hate the term African-American and similar terms.

Well whoopideefuckin'doo!

Don't you just feel special?

Yes....You said it in a earlier post, so I decided to mention it.