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Amol
What do you think about war ?

Is it a solution to the problems ?
asunder
depends on the problem(s).

War can solve a lot of problems (justification of high military spending, increasing low presidential rating polls, giving kickbacks to old buddies for business transactions aka spoils of war, need for more land/minerals/natural resources, need for more population/skilled workers)

War can create problems too (cycles of hatred and violence, political/regional instability, civilian injuries and casualties, a shift in the balance of power/hegemony (can be "good" or "bad" depending on what country you're rooting for), damage to the infrastructure of an invaded country, post traumatic stress disorder for anyone involved in combat)
kaizenyorii
the questions too vague to answer properly
Haruka_The_Alchemist
QUOTE(kaizenyorii @ Jan 30 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]498759[/snapback]
the questions too vague to answer properly

Yeah I think so too.
Vash_the_Gunslinger
Violence never solved anything. Maybe in a few rare cases though. tongue.gif
Amol
QUOTE(Haruka_The_Alchemist @ Jan 31 2007, 02:13 AM) [snapback]498803[/snapback]
QUOTE(kaizenyorii @ Jan 30 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]498759[/snapback]
the questions too vague to answer properly

Yeah I think so too.


What should the question according to you be.
Please suggest as to what I may add , so that the question is apt.

I just want to know it in general , not asking about a particular war !
kaizenyorii
QUOTE(Amol @ Jan 31 2007, 03:48 AM) [snapback]499059[/snapback]
QUOTE(Haruka_The_Alchemist @ Jan 31 2007, 02:13 AM) [snapback]498803[/snapback]
QUOTE(kaizenyorii @ Jan 30 2007, 11:19 AM) [snapback]498759[/snapback]
the questions too vague to answer properly

Yeah I think so too.


What should the question according to you be.
Please suggest as to what I may add , so that the question is apt.

I just want to know it in general , not asking about a particular war !


theres nothing general about war, each war is unique because if its reasons and consequences and whos involved and shit like that. sometimes war is the solution to "the problems", such as stopping nazis. sometimes there are much better ways to solve problems besides war.

my suggestion would be that you ask about a particular war
phoenix dying
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Popogeejo
QUOTE(phoenix dying @ Feb 1 2007, 04:22 PM) [snapback]499487[/snapback]
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.

Hence why so few wars are fought in the name of peace.
I believe that all forms of diplomacy should be used but War should not be ruled out. Some people will only react to direct conflict.
Look at the African Warlords. We can make as many UN sanctions as we want but they still keep doing what they are doing only they make more of their people suffer.
It's not pleasant and it's not ideal and no one ever truly wins but war is a necessity we should except.
Envy II
War is not the answer.

To quote Rem from Trigun "If violence seems to be the only answer you aren't looking hard enough." Okay so it's not an exact quote but it goes something like that.
Kenji
War will only spark more hatred and eventually hatred will lead into revenge. the bombings we heard now a days around the world is all because of hatred and revenge.
Nepharski
War is a "Necessary evil." Although it should never be considered as the first choice, it is an excellent fallback in some cases. This is, of course, taking all military actions with a grain of salt, separating the wars themselves from the atrocities frequently committed during them.
nick fury
the question was indeed very vague. is it a solution? Yes it is a solution. Now, is it a good or ethical solution? No, never. It may be necessary or much quicker and easier than diplomacy and other non violent means, but never ethical. When you take a life, even for the greater good, you are playing god. Sometimes though nethical things must be done.
The Dan
Peh, idealists...

War is necessary. There can not be humans without conflict. It is in our nature and our mental programming.'


Now, full-scale war? Nuclear warfare? All of that can and should be avoided.

Dan's Advice: Bring back one-on-one Dueling.
Nothing says 'I'm right and you're wrong' like an old-fashioned swordfight.
Kenji
All hails the next White House Apprentice @The Dan

*claps, whistles from big-boop girls*

----
As a citizen who lives in a Third World Country, I strongly disagree that "war is neccesary"... There might be conflicts but conflicts can be resolved through table and chairs instead of bullets and guns...

Once again, narrow minded-ness and pride comes during negotiating with both side wants a Win-Lose situation, instead of a Win-Win situation...

The Dan
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 4 2007, 09:11 PM) [snapback]501218[/snapback]
Once again, narrow minded-ness and pride comes during negotiating with both side wants a Win-Lose situation, instead of a Win-Win situation...

Narrow-mindedness and pride are two major setbacks of humanity, and unless we can get rid of those there will never be a lack of conflict (And what better way to solve conflict then a 500,000 body count?).
Kenji
QUOTE
500,000 body count


Forgiveness...instead of revenge....
The Dan
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 4 2007, 09:35 PM) [snapback]501243[/snapback]
QUOTE
500,000 body count


Forgiveness...instead of revenge....

sounds fine on paper, yes, but unless you've been in a vengeful situation don't try to be Idealist.

If you have, of course, then my point is invalid and you are a very strong person.



However, there are millions of weak people out there for whom forgiveness is near impossible. I dunno why, but that's how it is and it's difficult to avoid.
Kenji
Because there are millions of people who is willing to let Mr.Hyde take over their body when they confront unforeseen circumstances...such as tragedy...

I controlled my "Mr.Hyde" in my body well... You might get on my nerves today, but yo can see my smile tomorrow... Thats what my friends "labelled" me...

-----
Out of topic...you are intresting...whats your age?
Nepharski
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 4 2007, 08:11 PM) [snapback]501218[/snapback]
All hails the next White House Apprentice @The Dan

*claps, whistles from big-boop girls*

----
As a citizen who lives in a Third World Country, I strongly disagree that "war is neccesary"... There might be conflicts but conflicts can be resolved through table and chairs instead of bullets and guns...

Once again, narrow minded-ness and pride comes during negotiating with both side wants a Win-Lose situation, instead of a Win-Win situation...

Alright, fair enough. It turns out I've just perfected time travel. I want you to go back in time and negotiate with Hitler. Your mission is to negotiate both an end to his expansionism and racial cleansing policies, and end he can be trusted to uphold. You may use as much time, words, and non-violent resources as the world has to offer at that given time.

When you've finished, report back to me.
Kenji
Hey...the reason WWII started is because of the Versailles Treaty that has a Win-Lose situation... The Allied has the Win situation while Germany is in the lose situation. If the Versailles Treaty has a Win-Win situation, perhaps WWII might not have started...

But thank you nevertheless, without WWII, my country will not gain independence...
Nepharski
Yes, preemptive negotiation is always preferred to war (President Wilson actually advised against punishing Germany harshly, as that would lead to resentment and potential problems down the road). But when it's too late for that and the negotiations have failed, war is sometimes the best next step.
Kenji
They can revoke the Versailles Treaty...nevertheless and make a new aggrement...

But thank you nevertheless, without WWII, my country will not gain independence...
Nepharski
QUOTE
But thank you nevertheless, without WWII, my country will not gain independence...

Yes, I heard you the first time. Dare I ask what country you hail from?
Kenji
I am not repeating it..but it is related... I am from Malaysia

History is history..just can it and keep it aside...I doesn't want to see WWIII
Nepharski
Except that you are repeating it. You've said so in both posts #21 and #23.

And I also don't want to see another World War, but if it comes down to that, we shall fight.
Kenji
not between us, Nepharski...but between those hooligans...
Nepharski
Of course.
Slashrose1010
Call me an idealist, it is better than justifying war. I know that "humans" are imperfect, and realistically, it is impossible to avoid because you have moronic people. But really, peace is not idealistic. Violence is not neccessary. This was living proof through Gandhi.
kaizenyorii
i always thought (just my opinion) that gandhi was really lucky that the british empire was in full decline when india finally got independance. if WW2 hadnt happened i dont know if his methods would have bore any results
Kenji
If there is no WWII, there will be no Malaysia, India, Australia, New Zealand.... and the list goes on...

British will continue rule our land...
kaizenyorii
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 5 2007, 08:48 PM) [snapback]501544[/snapback]
If there is no WWII, there will be no Malaysia, India, Australia, New Zealand.... and the list goes on...

British will continue rule our land...


2/4. thats a F in history, child.
Kenji
No World War II = No United Nation

No United Nation = No anti-colonial rule [I translate from "Dasar Neokolonialisme" a Malay word]

No anti-colonial rule = No independence

UN [or the Geneva Convention] have a rule that stamp out colonization to other country...

Get it? I am too lazy to type a mile long essay just for this... US gained independent about 300 years ago [correct?]...but Malaysia is just 50 years independent...
kaizenyorii
youre still 2/4. Australia and New Zealand were self-governing themselves already before world war two. if you want to speak for malaysia thats fine, but each time you bring it up i care less and less.
jefe
war has always been a tool to fullfill certain international political/economical goal, from obtaining certain resources to anhaialating oposite political enemies.
its just a tool, i can both solve and create a problem.


oh, and some of you said that wars occur cuz of things like pride, stubbornness or revenge... please dont be so naive, no war has ever ocurred cuz of such petty causes, the masses may be stupid, but the powerful leaders are not, they occur for money, directly or indirectly, world leaders have no pride or ideology, they would gladly admit they are wrong if it gets them a couple of millions, and no one is foolish enough to risk their position or resources to wage a pointless war about religion, revenge or pride, and if wars seem to happen cuz of that, then its just an excuse, today world leaders are too crafty to start wars on something so non-profitable as revenge...

please understand that a win-lose situation implies that someone will win, thats right, lots of people will die, but the ones who declared the war, the leaders, will not, and at the end of the bloody conlict they will be richer, and more powerful. a win-win situation may save lots of lives, but who cares about OTHER PEOPLE'S lifes when I can be much richer?
those who fight are never who choose to fight, and those who benefit from it are never who pay for it.

the versallies treaty was win-lose right? it caused a war right? at the end of that war, besides the thousands of deaths, some people benefited, right? so, if you were one of those guys, why would you even care for the destruction it may have cuased? afterall, it did brought you some cash, didnt it? they ones who made the treaty werent moronic, they werent stubborn, they were smart, and they are rich.

as i said before, war is nothing but a tool, that runs on human lives

ps: i'm against using war for profit
Chiyo
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 6 2007, 01:48 AM) [snapback]501544[/snapback]
British will continue rule our land...



The Empire collapsed quite a while ago, Britain does not have anywhere near the hold on countries they had before, so why mention it? War made it collapse?
Kenji
QUOTE(Chiyo @ Feb 11 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]503899[/snapback]
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 6 2007, 01:48 AM) [snapback]501544[/snapback]
British will continue rule our land...



The Empire collapsed quite a while ago, Britain does not have anywhere near the hold on countries they had before, so why mention it? War made it collapse?


That "our" is meant to be Malaya... sorry if I confused you...
because this is not a lesson of Malaysia History, I will make it short...

After WWII British is coming back after the Japanese defeat. Before British is back, Malaya that time was ruled 13 days by communist. They wrecked havoc and be racist. They killed a lot of innocent people. When British return, they implement the British Army Administration System. Then later, at 1st April 1945, they introduce Malayan Union, a policy to wipe out all Malay Sultans so that they can have full control the whole of Malaya. Suffering from WWII during the ruling of Japanese regime, the whole of Malaya went against that Malayan Union plan and thus Malayan Union become a history... The abolishment of Malayan Union gives hopes to Malaya to gain independence and thus in 1957 we are free from British regime and on 1963, Malaysia is born... ditching the Malaya name...

Remark:
Malaya is Malaysia's name before 1963
kaizenyorii
my mom is a malaysian wa ren, so iv heard those stories too.

what you fail to mention was that every single facet of malaysias independance, from the constitution to the borders to who the first prime minister would be was decided by the british. malaysia simply got lucky becuase britain didnt have the resources to keep such large colonies, which does have some relation to WW2.

you speak as though you believe the UN and some glorious malaysian nationalistic movement freed malaysia from the british. dont be so naive. take a hint from hong kong and singapore and stop thinking of britain as some kind of evil empire.
Kenji
QUOTE(kaizenyorii @ Feb 12 2007, 05:12 AM) [snapback]504008[/snapback]
my mom is a malaysian wa ren, so iv heard those stories too.


Tell her "Aniyo hasayo! Orang Malaysia datang ucap selamat" XD

QUOTE

what you fail to mention was that every single facet of malaysias independance, from the constitution to the borders to who the first prime minister would be was decided by the british. malaysia simply got lucky because britain didnt have the resources to keep such large colonies, which does have some relation to WW2.
When the civilians started not to co-operate, you, back then as the Gabenor, are you willing to continue rule the country? With riots going on at every train stations, streets and markets they do have headache! So, for pride, before they left, they gave independent... so that civilians "stop thinking of Britain as some kind of evil empire afterall"

If they doesn't have any resources to keep such large colonies, why they keep hong Kong till 1997? Malaysia have definetly more resources such as coal, tin and cooper, while Hong Kong is just earth.

If I go on mentioning every single facet of malaya independence, from the constitution to the borders to who the first prime minister, the functions of each constitution...everyone will be scared away from FM-A.com forum...

The first prime minister is not choosen by Brit...it is because the first prime minister is the president of the strongest party that time, and thus he can be the prime minister... and futhermore, he is our Father of Independent...

QUOTE

you speak as though you believe the UN and some glorious malaysian nationalistic movement freed malaysia from the british. dont be so naive. take a hint from hong kong and singapore and stop thinking of britain as some kind of evil empire.


Speaking of singapore... well singapore gained independent on 9th August 196x.Ironically, it is not from British, but is from Malaysia. Before 196x, Lee Kwan Yew was in Malaya merging power with Tun Hussien Onn and Tunku Abdul Rahman to fight for independent. Singapore joined Malaya to hasten its independent and also to stop socialist party taking control of Singapore at the upcoming vote [with independent as a promise, they can win more votes]...

I am not naive... =.= About those UN and Geneva Convention, I am actually saying that British respects the UN and Geneva Convention and thus both the proclamation, especially Geneva Convention helped a lot too in a country's independent. So I didn't say BRITISH IS A EVIL EMPIRE!!!
kaizenyorii
^

maybe we should compare hong kong and malaysia in size. then maybe itll be easier on the mind. Also, hong kongs most important resource was being an easy entrance into the asian economic market. in retrospect, that was more valuable than coal, tin or copper.

i am also aware that singapore was first part of malaysia before their own independance. the point is that hong kong and singapore, despite being fiercely patriotic, also celebrate their colonial roots because it enabled them to become richer than any other asian city. i lived in hong kong for 12 years. despite not being independant, the people there for the most part love the way things are.

if you dont want to come off as anti-britain, try not giving us such gems as "British will continue rule our land..."

In any case, we can agree that in the case of malaysia, war was excellent.
Amol
The British Empire Started to weaken long back, most of the southeast Asian countries were rebelling against them and they could not hold on. WW-II just kind of made the final blow to the empire and forced them to withdraw.

The war only helped things to happen faster than they would have.
It only acted as a catalyst in the whole case.
Kenji
QUOTE(Amol @ Feb 12 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]504245[/snapback]
The British Empire Started to weaken long back, most of the southeast Asian countries were rebelling against them and they could not hold on. WW-II just kind of made the final blow to the empire and forced them to withdraw.

The war only helped things to happen faster than they would have.
It only acted as a catalyst in the whole case.


Yup... The war sees US took over the global trades untill today...Once, trades uses Pounds...but now all are in USD... ^.^
Chiyo
So the world has gone from being ruled by the British to ruled by the US dollor?
Amol
No, what it means is that before the WW-II Britain was considered a superpower , where as after the war the new power-blocks that came up were the United States and Soviet Union, and then came the era of cold war ................
Chiyo
Yes....its no longer British rule as that rule has moved on....to money.
travisbmoore
There is no easy solution to war. It has to be prevented by open and free discussion and debate between people that are willing to listen and compromise. But it just comes down to finding an alternative to oil.
Thievesvinegar
War is necessary, where do you think most of our technological and medical advancements come from? All this talk about prevention and anti-war is blasphemy.

Paraphrasing: one should be thankful of peace because it leads to war.
helmet boy
I think that warfare is the only thing that can be used sometimes. Imagine if Nazi germany never went to war with anyone, and kept of slaughtering the jews and gypsties in the death camps. What could the western powers due to apprent them, tell them not too? The only way they could get them to stop would be with a threat of war, or with a war. Its not the most elegent solution, but sometimes its the only one.
GREEDisGOOD
War is no solution; it's just an excuse. To me, Ed puts it well in the anime, pointing out that war results from the failure of the entire world.

However, anyone who thinks there can be a time or place without war is a complete idiot, because we all have differing views on one thing or another.
TheRainbowConnection
In a perfect world, there would be no war. It's a pity that humans aren't perfect.

On a slightly different note, war or the threat of war could also be very economically stimulating. The military-industrial complex contributes a lot to the economy, and nothing keeps it going like looming danger.
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