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Fullmetal Alchemist Discussion Board > Fullmetal Alchemist Discussions > Fullmetal Alchemist Anime (FMA-1) > FMA Conqueror of Shambala Movie
names_are_useless
This question has been bugging me a bit lately, so I decided to see what everyone else's thoughts on the subject were.

I tried doing a search through the Movie forums here, but I don't think there is a specific topic regarding Homunculi traveling through the Gate. I could be wrong however, and if there is, then I'm sorry for posting this topic sad.gif

Anyways, if you wish to answer the question, a post describing why you chose the answer you did would be great. Here are some of my thoughts on the subject:

Envy became a dragon either because of the Gate's power (he had no other choice) or he simply shapeshifted into one.

Now if it's because of Envy's shapeshifting, then its probably true that if another homunculus went through the Gate would become humans. Now, the Fuhrer's alternate did happen to be human. However, Ed mentions that at one time there was someone human that looked like Pride. As all human transmutations are done by trying to bring back humans that were once living, this makes sense. Still, it could simply be PRIDE'S alternate and not the once living human that Dante tried a human transmutation on.

If its due to the Gate's will, then a homunculus could perhaps become just about anything! It could very well be that the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, etc. are all the FMA Earth's equivalent to a Homunculi that traveled to the other side. Now, I could see why the producers chose to make Envy a dragon, as a dragon carries the theme of immortality (Envy was the 1 of the 7 that lived the longest), as well as being able to be used as a LITERAL Ourobors that the Thule Society could use to travel to the Alchemy World.

As for my thoughts on the subject, well I'm torn between just about all of them myself. I'm probably leaning more towards the idea that it was due to the Gate's will, but I'm still not sure what, if for example Greed or Wrath would be sent through the Gate, as to what they'd become.

I can say that I am pretty certain on one thing though: whatever form a homunculus takes when they come into our world, their body can be used as a sacrifice for the use of traveling to the Gate. Afterall, a homculus is a product of alchemy, and I suppose that they still contain some form of "alchemic energy" that is necessary for the use of alchemy (or possibley just Gate travel). I'm guessing that the Hagaren world must be full of this energy, while our world has none.
FMA - Breeze
Since alchemy doesn't exist in our world, no human transmutation can take place, thus no homunculis can be created, no homunculis have their counterparts in our world.

Envy shape-shifted in the gate, that's how he came to be.
That Jewish movie maker was indeed the counterpart of the human that died, not the homunculi, Pride. If other homunculis had come, they would be in whatever shape they ought to be, but without their powers. They can be killed just as easily as a human, red stone won't help a little bit, unless they go back to the Shambala world.

The parallel world idea sucks, now Ed and Al can't do a thing in the face of Hitler, WWII and us.

I seriously thought Envy would come to own everyone and wreck havoc in this world, but no no, some pre-WWII aircrafts which lands without runway and big suits of armors that never existed in this place captured him like an animal. A nazi lady who beats central? It's just sad seeing how the anime ended, even sadder the characters were out of place in the movie, Roy said it was an imperfect, yet beautiful world in the anime, then took a 180 to freeze himself in the movie. Argh. Can't get this out of my head/
The random alchemist
I think they be human. I even once came up with a fanfic where somehow the homunculi (when they died) crossed and became human in our world but in North america (hense why they didn't cross Ed/Al), in the story Envy eventually makes his way there [spoiler](after dying in the movie)[/spoiler]

So beyond my little rant I think they become human smile.gif
names_are_useless
QUOTE(FMA - Breeze @ Jan 9 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]492970[/snapback]
Since alchemy doesn't exist in our world, no human transmutation can take place, thus no homunculis can be created, no homunculis have their counterparts in our world.

Indeed, very good point smile.gif

QUOTE(FMA - Breeze @ Jan 9 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]492970[/snapback]
Envy shape-shifted in the gate, that's how he came to be.

That's a bold claim, I'd still say its up to debate. Why did he shape into the Fullmetal Alchemist, then his real form, and THEN a dragon while he was traveling through the Gate?

Now I could easily believe that he turned into Ed on his own. To me it seemed like a mocking gesture.

As for his real form, I don't really see any motive to at all. It could be another mocking gesture, but this time it would be to himself. Honestly, I doubt he really likes that form. I have a feeling that the Gate simply was converting him into his true "Alchemy World" form (just like it would then transform him into his true "Earth" form)

My biggest problem with all this is still the dragon transformation though:
1. We really don't know if he could shapeshift into an animal of any kind (Manga!Envy we do know, but the manga is another whole beast of its own (pardon the pun))
2. Why didn't he turn into something like this before in the series!? He could have easily rid the alchemy world of all the humans he hates!
3. Why did he all of a sudden decide to turn into a dragon when he was traveling through the Gate? Now, it could be that Homonculi (once those little black Gate babies afterall) know whats on the other side, but no evidence can really be found of this.

My thoughts is that the Gate is changing Envy into something somewhat "equivalently powerful" in our world to what he is in the alchemy world. Since our world is full of massive machines instead of magic, Envy would become a massive monster. Since the alchemy world is full of magic (I know its considered a science to them, but its still LIKE a magic!), Envy becomes a monster that has a magic of his own. I don't know if that seems like equivalence to anyone else, but it does to me ... kinda blink.gif

QUOTE(FMA - Breeze @ Jan 9 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]492970[/snapback]
Since alchemy doesn't exist in our world, no human transmutation can take place, thus no homunculis can be created, no homunculis have their counterparts in our world.

Indeed, very true. When Envy traveled through the Gate, he became an entity of his own. This rule can also be broken by humans. Ed, on his second soul trip to Germany, had no more Alter!Ed to go to, and thus came out as his own seperate entity (rightless arm and leftless leg included!)

QUOTE(FMA - Breeze @ Jan 9 2007, 09:43 PM) [snapback]492970[/snapback]
That Jewish movie maker was indeed the counterpart of the human that died, not the homunculi, Pride. If other homunculis had come, they would be in whatever shape they ought to be, but without their powers. They can be killed just as easily as a human, red stone won't help a little bit, unless they go back to the Shambala world.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that it was the Human counterpart too.

What do you mean by "what they ought to be?" Do you mean, what the once living humans that became the shapes of the homunculi? If so, I'd agree once again. However, I'm only talking about Homunculi traveling through the Gate. I have no doubt that there is an Alter!Trisha, but what Alter!Sloth would become if she traveled through the Gate is the real mystery ...

Sorry if I confused what you meant, just giving my two cents smile.gif
Popogeejo
I don't believe they become human. It makes no sense as Envy never became human. His form shouldn't have effected this.
I believe they come through as normal and remain homunculus but without their powers as their powers are, in essence, alchemy.
This is why Envy couldn't revert into a less conspicuous form.

QUOTE
That's a bold claim, I'd still say its up to debate. Why did he shape into the Fullmetal Alchemist, then his real form, and THEN a dragon while he was traveling through the Gate?
Envy first turned into Ed, believing that the black being let the real Ed through and thus would do the same for him. He then turned into his palm tree form for unknown reasons then became the dragon/Obouros being to navigate the Gate easier.

QUOTE
2. Why didn't he turn into something like this before in the series!? He could have easily rid the alchemy world of all the humans he hates!
Welcome to the plot holes.
names_are_useless
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Jan 10 2007, 04:57 AM) [snapback]493033[/snapback]
I don't believe they become human. It makes no sense as Envy never became human. His form shouldn't have effected this.
I believe they come through as normal and remain homunculus but without their powers as their powers are, in essence, alchemy.

Well, I think we can mostly agree that they still can't be considered human, but when I mean a "normal human" in the poll, I really meant a human form (I wish I could reword that now sad.gif).

QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Jan 10 2007, 04:57 AM) [snapback]493033[/snapback]
This is why Envy couldn't revert into a less conspicuous form.

I agree 100% that he's stuck as a dragon. If he could change, he probably would've changed into a smaller form once the Thule Society's planes came attacking him.

QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Jan 10 2007, 04:57 AM) [snapback]493033[/snapback]
Envy first turned into Ed, believing that the black being let the real Ed through and thus would do the same for him.

That makes complete sense now! smile.gif In episode 51, Al even says that Ed's soul is on the other side of the Gate, and Envy can be seen listening intently. Envy would probably be thinking 'In order to get to Hohenhiem on the other side of the Gate, I need to become Ed!'

Also, he says Ed in the Gate world. When he's traveling through the Gate, the Gate babies start to tear apart his body. He would begin to understand that to get through, he must turn into a human. If so however, problems arise as to why he became a dragon ...

QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Jan 10 2007, 04:57 AM) [snapback]493033[/snapback]
He then turned into his palm tree form for unknown reasons then became the dragon/Obouros being to navigate the Gate easier.

Actually, upon rewatching Episode 51, he turns into his TRUE form, not his usual palm form. He has to have had a reason to turn into his true form though unsure.gif

Well, the "navigating through the Gate theory" seems plausible, but I still argue about how he would still be thinking that he needs to have the form of a human to get across.

QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Jan 10 2007, 04:57 AM) [snapback]493033[/snapback]
Welcome to the plot holes.

Yeah, Bones made a lot of those. I still think, however, that there can be a reasonable explaination for all this though.

Heres a new theory of mine: When Envy is turning into Ed while traveling through the Gate, the Gate babies seem to change with him. Yes, odd, but with multiple Gate babies (who, in essence, would become homunculi once traveling into the Alchemy World) forming into Envy, it could explain that Envy has just gained an immeasurably larger amount of power necessary to turn into something as large as a dragon!

It could then be said that he'd try turning into his true form as a "test" to see if his transformation powers still work. After seeing they do, and probably realizing he has his power along with those of a few Gate babies, he then decides 'Finally! With such a powerful form, I can find and destroy Hohenhiem!'

Well, that makes sense to me now. I'll keep to my new theory unless anyone can argue otherwise. If my theory is correct, then its most likely that other homunculi who might travel through the Gate would come out as they would look in the alchemy form (aka in a human form).
mysticwateralchemist
I think that envy shape-shifted to a dragon by his own will, and that if a humunculus did go through the gate, they would turn into a human, but NOT the human that the alchemist who created them tried to bring back. I think that they would still be the humunculus that they were in Amestris, but they would lose the ouroborus tattoo, and there humunculus powers (the power that lust could dagger her nails, and that greed had the ultimate shield, etc.) I think they would still have the same personalities, though.
The random alchemist
QUOTE(mysticwateralchemist @ Jan 13 2007, 09:26 AM) [snapback]493777[/snapback]
I think that envy shape-shifted to a dragon by his own will, and that if a humunculus did go through the gate, they would turn into a human, but NOT the human that the alchemist who created them tried to bring back. I think that they would still be the humunculus that they were in Amestris, but they would lose the ouroborus tattoo, and there humunculus powers (the power that lust could dagger her nails, and that greed had the ultimate shield, etc.) I think they would still have the same personalities, though.

that theory would suck for Gluttony because he still would want to eat everything but would lose his ability to be able to do so x.x

lol, but this makes good sense =3
Arthur-F.Metal4life
i think they would become some of theyre own sin cause u saw Envy became a dragon of his rage and anger for Hohenhaimen and i dont realy think if he can become human if he travels cause hes a humancuil afterall
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