~ Xing And Alchemy! ~

So, I'd love to hear people's thoughts about what differentiates Xing's alchemy from Amestris'. (And please, don't feel you have to read the entire post. In fact, just tell me what you think if you'd rather not read any of it. I'm just curious, and these are just my guesses/ideas.)

(For those interested, the ZOMGFTA translation notes for the Return of Scar have a short discussion of the different terminology they use to describe the different powers, and chapters 53-58 or so, have relevant details for review.)

So, my best guesses are as follows:

I think the use of different terms for Xing's Alchemy-like-Power and Amestrian Alchemy is significant.

In case you're wondering because you didn't catch the differences (and I didn't, actually):
Renkinjutsu is Alchemy.
Rentanjutsu is "pharmacy," rendered as "Geomancy."
Ryuumyaku (a technical term used in Mei's description of Rentanjutsu) refers to lines of magnetic force. ZOMGFTA identifies these as Yin/Yang --the concept is more familiar to me as ley lines.
Chi or Qi is the "life force" or "energy flow" present in all things. (What I would call an animus. Well worth looking at the Wikipedia short on it. There are a lot of interesting connections between chi and health and healing.)

Anyway, so I don't think I'll get much argument on the first point. Arakawa doesn't name anything at curious. But what's the significance?

Well, we've seen ScarBro studying books from Xing, and discovering something strange about their alchemy, though we don't know what, just yet. He incorporated this knowledge into the tattoos on his arms --one arm for creation, one for destruction.

Mei catches sight of the Destruction Arm on Scar, years later, and identifies the symbols on it. "That is geomancy. The art of knowing and using the power of chi. That is what makes up the flow of our country's geomancy." We've seen Mei use Geomancy several times: in repairing that mine, in destroying the water tower during her confrontation with Edward and Al, in healing Scar's leg, and healing Marcoh's face.

When she heals Scar's leg, she draws a pair of lines resembling a cross on his thigh. The point where the two lines meet is the bullet wound. She tells Scar and Yoki that, "Just as there is a flow of power in the earth called Lung-Mei, there is also a flow of power in the bodies of humans. I cannot fix anything where that flow has stopped. It's also impossible to do things like grow back a missing arm." She adds that Scar's tattoo is a mixture of Retanjutsu and Rekinjutsu.

I suspect that the dead and the Homunculi are examples of beings who are beyond Mei's reach, whose flow of "chi" has stopped for good. If she can sense the "chi" lines in the earth and the body, it would also explain her reaction to Father and the Homunculi. Maybe Mei can see them walking around, but sees their energy signatures are either 1) dead, or 2) impossibly confused. (Perhaps a tangle of energy as a result of taking the lives of all those people in Xerxes, sticking them into Philosopher's Stones, and then feeding off the stones?) Either of which'd be plenty creepy.

Anyway, so during his confrontation with the Elrics in his secret laboratory, Father does something that "turns off" Alchemy in the area. Hohenheim feels this, even across an immeasurable distance. Neither Elric brother can do anything; and none of the Alchemists summoned to deal with the mess overhead can do anything either. However, both Scar and Mei still have their powers. The obvious connection is that both use a form of Retanjutsu. So, what's the difference? I have some guesses but I'd like to hear what other people think too.

While Ed, Ling, and Envy were chilling in Gluttony's gut, they discovered an old Alchemical array from Xerxes for a "normal human transmutation." This had a symbol for "throwing God to earth" incorporated. Hmmn.

• The legend of the Sage of the West and the array they discover suggests that someone was coaxing Xerxes along the alchemical path towards Human Transmutation, the Philosopher's Stone --something big and destructive, whatever it was. (Envy never does confirm Ed's guess, so we can't be sure.)

• Also, I'll bet a commission for fan-fiction that the Sage from the West was Father.

So, what happened to Xerxes?

Ed speculates that someone (Father, perhaps) tried to use the array on the roof that he saw in Xerxes and in Gluttony's belly to transmute a human from a human, opening the gate. It's not yet very clear what the relationship is between killing a bunch of people, creating the philosopher's stone, opening the gate, and attempting human transmutation.

• We know that the resident of the Gate identifies itself as Truth, and as God.

• We know that Human Transmutation opens the Gate. (And lets you petition or interact with God/Truth.)

• Transmuting a human to a human has also opened the Gate. (As above.)

• Part of the array that Edward draws for human transmutation states that God Inverted (Casting God Down) results in a Male and Female Dragon joined (Hermaphroditism, the Perfect Existance.)

• The Philosopher's Stone takes human souls as its ingredients, in an alchemical reaction.

• The relationship between the Soul and the Gate isn't clear. The Soul could be the "road" or "passage" to the Gate; it could be what typically enters the Gate (like in Christian Heaven) when someone dies.

We can't forget that Alphonse' body is in there too, of course, and I don't think that's supposed to happen, so something's clearly wrong at the entire foundations of the Gate/God/Truth system. But let's say for giggles that the Soul is supposed to go into the Gate when someone dies, and maybe contribute to Truth, or to God, once it gets in there.

• Then stealing souls and using them in Philosopher's Stones would be denying the souls to Truth/God, to use them for your own purposes and power.

Sort of like setting yourself up as God, diverting souls to your own Gate. And we know that Father tried that --Gluttony's the result.

I don't think any of these are especially out-there conjectures, most of us have probably come up with these things on our own. But I'm just trying to get some stuff out there, even if it gets nitpicked to death or ignored.

Anyway: whyever and however it happens, Xerxes vanishes in a night. Poof.

• Maybe when Xerxes was destroyed, Xing and Amestris were cut off from one another, and their respective forms of Alchemy took different paths as a result.

Now, Father is clearly pretty well established in Amestris.

• If he were the Sage of the West, then Father would have had to come to Xerxes out of Amestris. And once Xerxes was destroyed, perhaps he returned to Amestris, where he's been chilling all this time, building himself into that tubing. Ick on the tubing.

Why would he do that? Wellllllll, guesses, but--

1. Maybe because Xerxes didn't work out?
2. Or maybe Xerxes did work out, but only halfway?
3. Maybe that's what Hohenheim is --the halfway success, or maybe the human that Father transmuted from a human? Or heck, another homunculi? Certainly Father doesn't refer to him as though he's a human, "It wouldn't have died, but for it to have had children?"

Just some thoughts.

Last point, and this is the only actual original thinking I have to contribute to this discussion, but did you notice the array used for Human Transmutation and the array that Mei uses for her combat Retanjutsu? Both have five points. They're shown either as stars in circles, which we would call Pentagrams.

The Pentagram is the symbol of the Five Elements. Five Elements, because besides the traditional Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, there is the Animus, the Idea or Spirit. (Think Captain Planet, here. )

Many belief systems that adopt the Pentagram as a symbol acknowledge that all things have some kind of awareness or spirit. You'll sometimes hear them called Animists. Funny, that sounds an awful lot like the notion of "Chi."

I don't think that the difference between Xing and Amestrian Alchemy is as simple as a Five-Pointed Array vs. Other Arrays. If Father's group was in any way involved in what happened with Xerxes, they already know about the fact that the Human Transmutation array is a pentagon, and they probably came up with it.

So, in theory, they'd be able to counter it . . . right? But they can't or don't.

Maybe the difference is that where Rentanjutsu uses "chi" --uses all five elements, maybe even simultaneously, Rekinjutsu focuses on four elements, or uses the elements independently of one another?

Beh, I dunno. I would really like to hear people's thoughts on this, though!

-Rantza

.....wow. That's alot of info about Rentanjutsu.

And the idea of the Sage from the West being Father actually makes sense...

With the whole chi thing, maybe that's how Ran Fan can sense homunculus? Like instead of focusing on chi, focusing where there's no chi?

If I don't make any sense, I'm sorry. ^^

No, I agree on the chi thing completely. ^^

It's a longstanding plotpoint that the folks from Xing can sense the Homunculi. I'm interested, though, in why they can --I mean, do all Xingese have "chi-vision" or something?

*laughs* But yar, you made perfect sense.

-Rantza

You make perfect sense, but what you say isn't consistent with how Ran Fan describes homunculus (specifically Envy) in Chapter 37. She senses many souls all concentrated within the one body (which is what makes it abnormal).

That was very confusing and how long did it take for u to come up with all of that? I agree with the sage being father but i didn't understand most of the reganjustu explanation part.

Wow, I'm impressed with the sheer amound of this... I've seen some of it before, but it's still impressive. I've interspersed some little comments, have fun taking a look at them.

QUOTE (Arantzain @ Nov 18 2006, 02:04 AM)

So,
I think the use of different terms for Xing's Alchemy-like-Power and Amestrian Alchemy is significant.

In case you're wondering because you didn't catch the differences (and I didn't, actually):
Renkinjutsu is Alchemy.
Rentanjutsu is "pharmacy," rendered as "Geomancy."
Ryuumyaku (a technical term used in Mei's description of Rentanjutsu) refers to lines of magnetic force. ZOMGFTA identifies these as Yin/Yang --the concept is more familiar to me as ley lines.
Chi or Qi is the "life force" or "energy flow" present in all things. (What I would call an animus. Well worth looking at the Wikipedia short on it. There are a lot of interesting connections between chi and health and healing.)

Anyway, so I don't think I'll get much argument on the first point. Arakawa doesn't name anything at curious. But what's the significance?

I'd like to add one more- ougonjutsu. Someone around the forums stumbled on this term a while ago, and it's been used as a proxy term for 'perfect alchemy.' In essence, Japanese alchemy has three types, the first two being renkinjutsu and rentanjutsu, and the third ougonjutsu. If memory serves correctly, they literally mean metal changing technique, elixir making technique, and gold forming technique respectively. Ougonjutsu is thought to be the final form of alchemy, a combination between rentanjutsu and renkinjutsu. It's quite possible that Scar's Brother and Hawkeye were ougonjutsushi, as Hawkeye-sensei mentioned the 'ultimate alchemy' and Scar's brother demonstrated alchemy completely different from renkinjutsu and rentanjutsu (see more further down)

QUOTE (Arantzain @ Nov 18 2006, 02:04 AM)

Well, we've seen ScarBro studying books from Xing, and discovering something strange about their alchemy, though we don't know what, just yet. He incorporated this knowledge into the tattoos on his arms --one arm for creation, one for destruction.

Mei catches sight of the Destruction Arm on Scar, years later, and identifies the symbols on it. "That is geomancy. The art of knowing and using the power of chi. That is what makes up the flow of our country's geomancy." We've seen Mei use Geomancy several times: in repairing that mine, in destroying the water tower during her confrontation with Edward and Al, in healing Scar's leg, and healing Marcoh's face.

When she heals Scar's leg, she draws a pair of lines resembling a cross on his thigh. The point where the two lines meet is the bullet wound. She tells Scar and Yoki that, "Just as there is a flow of power in the earth called Lung-Mei, there is also a flow of power in the bodies of humans. I cannot fix anything where that flow has stopped. It's also impossible to do things like grow back a missing arm." She adds that Scar's tattoo is a mixture of Retanjutsu and Rekinjutsu.

As we see in the Ishbal flashback, Scar's tattoo is neither rentanjutsu nor renkinjutsu, but something more. Renkinjutsu does not heal, and rentanjutsu cannot reattach limbs, but Scar's brother manages to attach his own arm to Scar, which is something that's a combination of both. This makes one think that perhaps he is an ougonjutsushi.

QUOTE (Arantzain @ Nov 18 2006, 02:04 AM)

I suspect that the dead and the Homunculi are examples of beings who are beyond Mei's reach, whose flow of "chi" has stopped for good. If she can sense the "chi" lines in the earth and the body, it would also explain her reaction to Father and the Homunculi. Maybe Mei can see them walking around, but sees their energy signatures are either 1) dead, or 2) impossibly confused. (Perhaps a tangle of energy as a result of taking the lives of all those people in Xerxes, sticking them into Philosopher's Stones, and then feeding off the stones?) Either of which'd be plenty creepy.

I disagree- they can merely sense chi, which is the energy of the soul. If they can sense one chi or another, and assuming there are some differences between each chi, it would be elementary for Mei, Fuu, or RanFan to tell if a soul has hundreds or thousands of chi. It might come into play again to tell who Pride is (incidentally, any character who has ever been in close proximity to Ling, RanFan, Fuu, or Mei is not Pride.) It might also be useful in Greedling's case, as the intense differentiation between the chi of a deadly sin as the uppermost soul and Ling's chi is doubtless noticable, allowing them to tell who is currently dominant.

QUOTE (Arantzain @ Nov 18 2006, 02:04 AM)

Anyway, so during his confrontation with the Elrics in his secret laboratory, Father does something that "turns off" Alchemy in the area. Hohenheim feels this, even across an immeasurable distance. Neither Elric brother can do anything; and none of the Alchemists summoned to deal with the mess overhead can do anything either. However, both Scar and Mei still have their powers. The obvious connection is that both use a form of Retanjutsu. So, what's the difference? I have some guesses but I'd like to hear what other people think too.

While Ed, Ling, and Envy were chilling in Gluttony's gut, they discovered an old Alchemical array from Xerxes for a "normal human transmutation." This had a symbol for "throwing God to earth" incorporated. Hmmn.

• The legend of the Sage of the West and the array they discover suggests that someone was coaxing Xerxes along the alchemical path towards Human Transmutation, the Philosopher's Stone --something big and destructive, whatever it was. (Envy never does confirm Ed's guess, so we can't be sure.)

• Also, I'll bet a commission for fan-fiction that the Sage from the West was Father.

So, what happened to Xerxes?

Ed speculates that someone (Father, perhaps) tried to use the array on the roof that he saw in Xerxes and in Gluttony's belly to transmute a human from a human, opening the gate. It's not yet very clear what the relationship is between killing a bunch of people, creating the philosopher's stone, opening the gate, and attempting human transmutation.

• We know that the resident of the Gate identifies itself as Truth, and as God.

• We know that Human Transmutation opens the Gate. (And lets you petition or interact with God/Truth.)

• Transmuting a human to a human has also opened the Gate. (As above.)

• Part of the array that Edward draws for human transmutation states that God Inverted (Casting God Down) results in a Male and Female Dragon joined (Hermaphroditism, the Perfect Existance.)

• The Philosopher's Stone takes human souls as its ingredients, in an alchemical reaction.

I have a lot to say about this one.

First, on the subject of the Sages- I first put forth the theory that Hohenheim was the Sage from the West and Father was the Sage from the East a while ago, and I've only found corroborating evidence since. I'm also of the opinion that they are both the same person, or, at least, were. Father attempted human transmutation in Xerxes, perhaps to make himself into a 'perfect human.' In any case, the transmutation failed, and he destroyed Xerxes, created at least one or eight perfect Philosopher's stones, and split into himself and a double, Hohenheim. Whether or not Hohenheim has a perfect Stone is debatable, though likely. If so, it's probably in his briefcase. Father keeps at least a part of it inside himself. He used it (or seven other stones, I'm not sure which, though I think that he split the perfect one into eight pieces) and made those into the homunculi. He taught alchemy to the Amestrians in its bastardized/specialized form of renkinjutsu, while Hohenheim did the same thing for the Xingese and rentanjutsu. Whether they lost ougonjutsu, never had it, or specialized it for their own needs is not clear. In any case, the two forms of alchemy are now so different that Father cannot take them away using his anti-renkinjutsu alchemy.

The stone needs to kill a lot of people because it takes their souls, which are pure energy. A soul gives a lot of alchemic power, and a lot of them will give almost unlimited power. Enough of them, perhaps, can even violate the laws of conservation and make a perfect stone- have so much energy that you can even transmute more energy out of it? I don't really know, something along those lines.

QUOTE (Arantzain @ Nov 18 2006, 02:04 AM)

• The relationship between the Soul and the Gate isn't clear. The Soul could be the "road" or "passage" to the Gate; it could be what typically enters the Gate (like in Christian Heaven) when someone dies.

We can't forget that Alphonse' body is in there too, of course, and I don't think that's supposed to happen, so something's clearly wrong at the entire foundations of the Gate/God/Truth system. But let's say for giggles that the Soul is supposed to go into the Gate when someone dies, and maybe contribute to Truth, or to God, once it gets in there.

• Then stealing souls and using them in Philosopher's Stones would be denying the souls to Truth/God, to use them for your own purposes and power.

Sort of like setting yourself up as God, diverting souls to your own Gate. And we know that Father tried that --Gluttony's the result.

I don't think any of these are especially out-there conjectures, most of us have probably come up with these things on our own. But I'm just trying to get some stuff out there, even if it gets nitpicked to death or ignored.

I disagree. Gluttony was created as a naked guy in a trenchcoat who's supposed to run around flashing alchemists and, while they're still shocked and disgusted from Gluttony's 'truth' Father would sacrifice them. Instead, Gluttony didn't work as a false gate, so Father used him to eat evidence.

What the gate actually does and why it's there and why it's special- I have no idea. Feel free to speculate, but I feel your current idea feels anime-ish.

QUOTE (Arantzain @ Nov 18 2006, 02:04 AM)

Anyway: whyever and however it happens, Xerxes vanishes in a night. Poof.

• Maybe when Xerxes was destroyed, Xing and Amestris were cut off from one another, and their respective forms of Alchemy took different paths as a result.

Now, Father is clearly pretty well established in Amestris.

• If he were the Sage of the West, then Father would have had to come to Xerxes out of Amestris. And once Xerxes was destroyed, perhaps he returned to Amestris, where he's been chilling all this time, building himself into that tubing. Ick on the tubing.

Why would he do that? Wellllllll, guesses, but--

1. Maybe because Xerxes didn't work out?
2. Or maybe Xerxes did work out, but only halfway?
3. Maybe that's what Hohenheim is --the halfway success, or maybe the human that Father transmuted from a human? Or heck, another homunculi? Certainly Father doesn't refer to him as though he's a human, "It wouldn't have died, but for it to have had children?"

Just some thoughts.

My opinion on this is above. I'll throw out that Hohenheim is not a homunculus. I forget exactly why, but there are a lot of reasons and I was very convinced of it at one point. He does alchemy, he's had kids, and, as far as we know, there are only seven. I think that's been said quite firmly in the manga. It's possible... but highly, highly unlikely, considering Father made him and didn't simply destroy him when he became rebellious like Greed. He's had millenia, after all.

QUOTE (Arantzain @ Nov 18 2006, 02:04 AM)

Last point, and this is the only actual original thinking I have to contribute to this discussion, but did you notice the array used for Human Transmutation and the array that Mei uses for her combat Retanjutsu? Both have five points. They're shown either as stars in circles, which we would call Pentagrams.

The Pentagram is the symbol of the Five Elements. Five Elements, because besides the traditional Earth, Water, Air, and Fire, there is the Animus, the Idea or Spirit. (Think Captain Planet, here. )

Many belief systems that adopt the Pentagram as a symbol acknowledge that all things have some kind of awareness or spirit. You'll sometimes hear them called Animists. Funny, that sounds an awful lot like the notion of "Chi."

I don't think that the difference between Xing and Amestrian Alchemy is as simple as a Five-Pointed Array vs. Other Arrays. If Father's group was in any way involved in what happened with Xerxes, they already know about the fact that the Human Transmutation array is a pentagon, and they probably came up with it.

So, in theory, they'd be able to counter it . . . right? But they can't or don't.

Maybe the difference is that where Rentanjutsu uses "chi" --uses all five elements, maybe even simultaneously, Rekinjutsu focuses on four elements, or uses the elements independently of one another?

Beh, I dunno. I would really like to hear people's thoughts on this, though!

-Rantza

HEART!

Really, it's an interesting idea, and quite possible. I need to have another look at Scar's tat when I get back to see if there is a pentagonal motif there too.

I'm looking forward to seeing you around in the chapter discussions!

I'll write a longer reply when I have time later, but for now I'll just say this: Please don't take the "Geomancy" thing too seriously. ._. Chapter 45 was the second chapter Umeko and I ever scanlated and we were just starting out, trying to think of what to call "rentanjutsu." We've since concluded that it would be best just not to translate the term, because we didn't have much evidence that Rentanjutsu was Geomancy (though I'm pretty sure "lungmei = ryuumyaku" is correct), and I think that was the best decision considering that Viz also chose to call it "Rendanshu," which is a slightly more Chinese pronounciation of "Rentanjutsu."

CsakuraS, can you remind me quickly of the literally translations of renkinjutsu, rentanjutsu, and ougonjutsu? I want to make sure that I didn't get them wrong... and, awesome avvy.

Renkinjutsu (錬金術) means alchemy. When I look up Rentanjutsu in my dictionary, I get 煉丹術 and the definition "alchemy; art of making elixirs." However, the Rentanjutsu in the manga uses the kanji 錬金術.

The difference is that the kanji for "gold" in Renkinjutsu is replaced by the kanji for "red/red earth/pellet/powder/cinnabar" in Rentanjutsu. So from that, we can conclude that Renkinjutsu is representative of European alchemy, which focused on turning lead into gold, while Rentanjutsu is Chinese alchemy, which focused on making elixirs.

Incidentally, the first kanji for "Rentanjutsu" that I got from the dictionary is different from the kanji for Rentanjutsu from the manga. 錬 and 煉 are both pronounced "ren," but the 煉 kanji is used in place of 錬 in the Chinese word for alchemy (煉金術). Also, both "ren"s would be pronounced "lian" in Chinese, so the full Chinese pronounciation of Rentanjutsu is "liandanshu" (it seems Viz chose to go with a half-way Chinese pronounciation).

(Credit goes to everyone in this thread: http://community.livejournal.com/hagaren_m...733433#t733433)

EDIT: I looked up "ougonjutsu" in the dictionary and got these kanji for it: 黄金術 The definition is simply "alchemy," and when I looked up the first kanji, its meaning is "yellow." So...my guess is that it's only another word for alchemy, with perhaps more emphasis on the gold itself rather than the process of making gold.

I think you misunderstood that part. ^^; Those lines are part of Scar's clothing.

How the ki/chi thing works for the Xing characters is that normal humans have only one soul. The homunculi have hundreds or thousands of souls, and that's why their ki is so distinct. In Bradley's case, he's a homunculus with only one soul, which is why Ran Fan thought he was only a human at first. In Al's case, they noticed that Al doesn't have the "flow of ki" that most humans do, because he's only a soul attached to a suit of armor. And for Father...well, he probably has tons more souls than the homunculi do, so that might explain Ling and Mei's strong reaction to him. Or it could be even more than just having a horrifying number of souls, because after all, he's not a normal "human."

Also, in Chapter 40, Fuu says that before the Western Sage came to Xing, their traditional alchemy was only "products of delusion and imagination" and couldn't even be clasified as actual alchemy. "They believed that mercury had the effects of immortality to the point that there's a story of three generations of the imperial family continuing to drink mercury until they died of mercury poisoning." But when the Western Sage came to Xing, their alchemy began to progress. The Rentanjutsu of the present is a combination of the traditional alchemy of Xing and the alchemy that the Western Sage brought over.

The alchemy of Amestris, however, was brought over by a survivor from Xerxes, who would come to be known as the Eastern Sage.

Now let's say that the Eastern Sage was Father. If Father was the one who taught the people of Amestris alchemy, then it wouldn't be difficult for him to decieve them into using an artificial form of alchemy that he can control (turning it on or off). After all, Envy said that they're using it without even really knowing what it is.

And let's say that the Western Sage was Hohenheim (because it seems Father doesn't know about the Xingese alchemy). Hohenheim could have taught the Xingese the "pure" form of alchemy from Xerxes, and with the Xingese emphasis on medicine, it would have developed into something new.

Now what's interesting is that the source of power for Rentanjutsu comes from the ground- a power called "lungmei" that exists all over the earth. Scar's brother noted that it sounds similar to the god Ishvara, who is an earth god. You'll also notice that Mei always draws a circle in the ground or plants her daggers in the ground in order to transmute. So is the earth the "pure" source?

Then what is Renkinjutsu's source? Is it Father? Mei says that there's a flow of power inside humans just like lungmei (she's probably referring to ki), so what if Renkinjutsu's source is the flow inside Father? Father seems super-powered enough to be able to support enough energy for people all around the country to use, and maybe that's the reason he's plugged up to the tubes? Because he needs to recharge? Maybe that's why he seems to be physically aging more than Hohenheim (assuming they're the same age)? But then again, Father also stamped his foot on the ground to cancel out Amestris's alchemy...

And what about Scarbro's alchemy that mixes Renkinjutsu and Rentanjutsu? Could it be that his hybrid alchemy gets its power from the "lungmei" of Rentanjutsu, but its technical aspects reflect that of Renkinjutsu? If that's so, then it would of course resemble the alchemy of Amestris to the point that Ed and co. wouldn't notice any difference, but Mei would notice because she can recognize its source.

This is all just speculation from me, btw...



It's true that Rentanjutsu specializes in medicine, so it probably has more capabilities to heal, but Marcoh was also healing people with Renkinjutsu. Of course, he was using the Philosopher's Stone as well, but when Roy also tried using the Philosopher's Stone to heal Havoc, he said that healing alchemy wasn't his specialty- he wanted to use the Stone to make up for that. So Renkinjutsu can be used to heal, just probably not as well as Rentanjutsu without an energy-booster like the Philosopher's Stone. This might be why we didn't see any healer alchemists in Ishbal, and normal doctors were sent in instead.

I do agree that it's probably because of the combination of Renkinjutsu and Rentanjutsu that Scarbro was able to attach his arm to Scar. Mei's line about not being able to grow an arm back with Rentanjutsu might have been foreshadowing for that part of the flashback. Which makes me wonder- if Ed and Al manage to mix the two types of alchemy together, would they be able to reattach Ed's limbs too?

Thanks for the awsome posts, CSakuraS!!

Just adding little attachment to her awsome post.;
As you probably know, 黄金 (ougon) means gold, refined shiny golden colored gold, so I think 黄金術(ougonjutsu) is more or less pointing to the same thing as 煉金術(renking jitsu,) and both can be used interchangeably, tho 煉金術(renking jitsu) is more common name used for it, and yes, I think 黄金術(ougonjutsu) is putting more emphasis on the gold rather than the process of making gold, just as CSakuraS has posted.

Thank you all. ^^

It's wonderful to have clarification on these points. I had somehow missed the reference to a Sage of the East/West dynamic, I'm glad to have that explained. The scenarios shared by CSakuraS and Monster Envy make a lot of sense in the context of all that's been revealed, I'll look forward to seeing them play out.

I kind of wonder, though-- if as CSakuraS speculates, "What if Renkinjutsu's source is the flow inside Father? Father seems super-powered enough to be able to support enough energy for people all around the country to use, and maybe that's the reason he's plugged up to the tubes?" --then what are Ed, Izumi, and Al doing with the claps?

Is it possible that Retanjutsu focuses on lung-mei, that Amestrian Alchemy derives its power from Father (perhaps even from the philosopher's stones in Father? If he has one?) and that Ed, Izumi, and Al are accessing power directly from Truth, because they've been through the Gate?

Except then, Ed and Al's alchemy didn't work when Father stopped them, so maybe it's Father they're (inadvertently?) channeling from?

Curious to hear thoughts on this, anyway.

Also, a couple of things I thought of reading this: "The difference is that the kanji for "gold" in Renkinjutsu is replaced by the kanji for "red/red earth/pellet/powder/cinnabar" in Rentanjutsu." This is supposedly because Rentanjutsu focused on elixirs, which I don't intend to argue. Wikipedia actually mentions that "the philosopher's stone of European alchemists can be compared to the Grand Elixir of Immortality sought by Chinese alchemists. However, in the hermetic view, these two goals were not unconnected, and the philosopher's stone was often equated with the universal panacea." Which is an interesting historical notation and direct commentary on the whole Ling-and-Mei-looking-for-Immortality subplot.

Cinnabar is more formally known as Mercury Sulfide. I mention this for two reasons. First, because the use of that particular character confirms what Master Fuu said about the focus on mercury in Xing's Alchemy --Mercury Sulfide is generally heated to liquify the mercury, which is then collected from the ashes of the fire.

The second reason is that Mercury Sulfide/Cinnabar is the physical representation of hermaphroditism. If you'll remember back to the Xerxes mural, that may be important --Ed said that the hermaphrodite was a symbol of perfect union, and of human transmutation.

Mercury is a sort of "perfect medium" in European alchemy, capable of conveying the nature or soul of a thing unchanged from state to state. (Rather like transmuting a living human.) Sulfur is symbolic of Passion and Will --two characteristics I would say are as necessary for a Human Transmutation as any physical component.

-Rantza

~ Driving Forces..., SPOILERS: How are the various alchemies different? ~


The subject of how alchemy is powered has been raised in recent chapters as a point of difference between the alchemy of Xing and the alchemy of Amestria. Namely, Xing alchemy seems to uses the ambient magnetic field of the earth to power transmutations, while Dr. Marcoh states that Amestrian alchemy supposedly uses tectonic stress as the source of its power - though the implication seems to be that this is not, in fact, the real source of power for Amestrian alchemy.

I'd postulate that the real source of power for Amestrian alchemy is human souls, hence Mei's feeling that there are a 'great number of people squirming around' under Amestria. Father could 'turn off' Amestrian alchemy at will by shutting off the flow of power from the human souls trapped beneath Amestria, but could not stop Scar and Mei from transmuting because both of their alchemies are based on the Xing equasions that draw on the ambient magnetic field.

If this were true, it would mean that every alchemist trained in Amestria has been drawing on the souls of those killed in the many wars conducted since the founding of Amestria; not a pleasant thought from a moral standpoint. Amestrian alchemy also might not function at all outside of Amestria. Ed and Al will probably 'convert' over to Xing alchemy at some point in the future, especially if they plan to go up against Father.

One wonders where Flame Alchemy stands; it was apparently a new technique developed by Riza's father, and exhibits a few properties that other alchemies don't, and he believed it to be the 'strongest' alchemy. Roy has been shown to transmute gasses in the surrounding atmosphere, for instance, which allows him to produce flames at great distances. All other alchemists have thus far only been shown transmuting solids and liquids, though that doesn't necessarily preclude them from transmuting gasses as well.

Is it possible that its powered in the same way as Xing's alchemy? That would put an interesting twist on things... though the master's words and his gristly and sudden death seem to indicate that he opened The Gate at some point. I think it's possible that a Xing alchemist attempting to transmute a human being would not open The Gate upon failure; the seem to be totally bewildered by the nature of the homunculi, and if human beings could be transmuted by Xing alchemy, they wouldn't be in search of immortality...

O.o .......Information......overload..... But I think I get what you're saying.
At some point Ed and Al will probably learn some Xingese alchemy.

Alhazred, I'm glad someone asked raised this issue, these are things I've been thinking about a lot lately. All seems very plausible, but there are some uncertainties.

First, Renkinjistu. Brought to Amestris by the Sage of the East, which most people identify with Father, it is, as Alhazred mentioned, said to be powered by tectonic stress. So let's accept the theory that this is plain bogus, and that Father is the source of the souls that fuel transmutations. Amestrian alchemists transmute objects by following the tradition Father has started - it all makes perfect sense, but what confuses me is the fact that those who have the ultimate control of this Father-invented alchemy are those who have gained knowledge from behind the Doors, which clearly predate Father and Renkinjitsu, and over which Father has no control of.

And then there is another question. How come the alchemical array that fixes Al's soul to the armour didn't stop functioning when Father "shut down" Renkinjitsu? I can't remember whether Ed exchanged his arm for Al's soul, or the knowledge required to fix Al's soul to the armour... I'm inclined to think it's the second variant, and that means the alchemy Ed performed is something diferent from both Renkinjitsu and Rentanjisu...

Also, the question whether Rentanjitsu has anything to do with the Doors is also interesting... I believe there is a 3rd kind of alchemy, the original alchemy of Xerxes, that is closest to the Truth behind the Doors, and that is strongly interwoven into both Rentanjitsu and Renkinjitsu...but then again this is just speculation.

I'm sorry if I misused any terms, I don't speak Japanese... and sorry if I said stuff that's already been debated. I'm still new to the forum, if there's a better topic to debate this in, please let me know.

~ A Theory On Just What Is "wrong" With Amestrian Alchemy: Compared to Xingese Alchemy, and how Mei Chan can sense it wrong ~


This is a thread I posted in another forum, but there is simply no traffic there for FMA, sadly. I was hoping I could get somebody's opinions on it... So, fire away :3

{{Good idea for a thread. I absolutely doubt that Arakawa would recycle an idea used in the anime for her manga. She's went pretty damn far out of her way so far to keep from paralleling it, why would she start now? I do have to admit though, Father temporarily closing the gate and kinking up the flow of energy from "the other side" would be the easiest way of explaining everything...

Badluckartist's theory on Amestrian Alchemy! Behold!!

We can look at alchemy this way- Xingese alchemy is pure in nature. It uses the earth's energy for it's power, and seems to be the antithesis to Amestrian alchemy. "There's something wrong with this country", is a phrase that has been said more than once, and I think it pertains to Amestrian alchemy's darker nature. It probably has to do with manipulation of life and death's energies on a much smaller scale than what is required to create a philosopher's stone.

Perhaps the processes of life and death create an ambient, permeable atmosphere of invisible energy that is harnessed for normal transmutations using the alchemist's own body (as well as the circle, and the knowledge of transmutation itself) as catalysts for the transmutation. This would also be a throwback to what Ling said about how it looks almost like Ed is praying to God when he transmutes by putting his hands together (in this case, praying to all of life and death).

I'd say manipulating life and death would qualify as "something wrong with this country", although that could be a reference to Father's devious plans for the country. As to how Father cut off Amestrian alchemy within that colossal radius, it's possible that he dispersed all the ambient particles of energy (those created from life/death), used them up all at once, or simply pushed them all away from his location. He payed no mind to the earth's energies (or couldn't do anything about them {or even didn't know that Xingese alchemy exists/ how it works}), thus Xingese alchemy remained perfectly usable.

This could also explain why the Xing people have never made a philosopher's stone- if they were to apply the same principle as Father does to the creation of his, the entire earth might just die out.

Phew. Yes, I just made that up off the top of my head. Spur of the moment genius, I know. Keep the applause going, it pleases me.}}

Yes, yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Your 'life-and-death' theory of Amestrian Alchemy sounds plausible since that alchemy pretty much runs on the energy provided by Father, who is a Philosopher's Stone containing half the population of souls in Xerxes.

I was actually doing some research on the earth's energies yesterday and discovered that 'chi' (the Dragon's Pulse or Veins of the Dragon as it is known in FMA) is also known as 'life' or 'breath'. While Rentanjutsu is primarily based on the earth's flow, Renkinjutsu (Amestrian alchemy) is based on, as you put it, 'life and death' or 'a human's flow'. In other words, Renkinjutsu runs on a human's life-force while Rentanjutsu runs only on that of the earth.

Gah...I'd type more, but I gotta go!

Way to use your brain, buddy; I like people like you. : D Yes, that's a very plausible theory, and I'd say more if I weren't in such agreement with your thoughts that anything I would say would be redundant.

Actually this theory to date makes the most sense, I actually had thought of it before but never could explain it as well as this. I just theorize that the alchemy is Amestrie is using life energy from the dead whiles that of Xing is from the Earth itself.
Thus the use of the alchemy in Amestrie is "wrong", And to keep the alchemy functional Father must need to supply constant deaths, which may explain all the wars he keeps making with other nations and within his own nation.
He's literally making Alchemy flow for as long as he needs Amestrie.

You know, I hadn't thought of that; I just thought he had caused all the wars and ruckus in the different regions of Amestris for his plan with the country, and not for the country's alchemy.

Okay, I discovered the Wikipedia article for FMA alchemy. Apparently, badluckartist's 'life-and-death' theory was mentioned in the manga by the Xingese alchemist, Mei Chan:

Alchemy

Hoo, nice topic!

You make some very good points. This actually does make sense, but here's something that bothers me: If RenkinJutsu runs on the souls of the dead, then is it possible for those performing the alchemy to use their own souls in the process? I believe Ed did this in chapt. 78 or 79 as a 'first-aid' precaution, but I still wonder...is it possible that they could be using their own souls in transmutations? And something else: if Father shut down the power to fuel RenkinJutsu again, could Amestrian alchemists use their own souls to perform that transmutations at that time as well?

RentanJutsu is another story: an alchemy based on "knowledge of the earth's flow". This flow is known as 'chi', which means 'life' or 'breath'. In vol. 12 of the manga, Mei Chan states that "in every living thing, there is a flow of energy...But if the flow has stopped in a certain area, I can't do anything", which regarded her healing alchemy.

I'm curious...Just what exactly is this flow in the human body? Is it the soul or the spirit? Fu, one of Ling Yao's body guards, comments that he cannot sense a flow of chi in Alphonse's body, yet his soul is in the armor. When RanFan senses one of the homunculi, she once states that she can sense twenty, maybe thirty souls nearby. So, what exactly is this flow that they're speaking of? I'm a bit confused by it.

Edit: sorry if this post seems abrupt; it was moved from another thread.



I think that they are officially calling it Alkahestry for the English adaption, but since I don’t read it, I could be wrong about that. I do know that the alkahest is the universal solvent in alchemic belief that can dissolve any substance, and was believed by some to be the Philosopher’s Stone. According to this Japanese Wikipedia entry, Rentanjutsu sounds very similar to alchemy (if that is in fact the correct kanji used in the manga, which I don’t have a copy on me right now here I’m at).

錬丹術（煉丹術、れんたんじゅつ）は、中国の道士の術の一つ。辰砂などから抽出した硫化水銀（丹）を原料とし、服用すると不老不死の仙人になれ、金も作れる霊薬（仙丹）をつくる。

"Rentanjutsu is one of the arts of Chinese Taoist monks. It uses mercury(II) sulfide (HgS) (丹tan) extracted from substances such as cinnabar as a raw material, which if taken makes one become an immortal who will not age or die (不老不死furoufushi), and will even make gold and a panacea (仙丹sentan)."

Maybe someone who dabbles in the Chinese occult would know? I asked my research adviser who is Chinese what his translation was, and he was like, "Uh...I don't even know what exactly that could even be." Probably like how most people have heard of alchemy, but they only have a vague impression of what it is.

This is not just Chinese Occultism...
Nazis were trying the same, but, they used some old books from Slovenian people, mostly from Lusatian Serbs (Lužički Srbi), they use to live here, till the World War II, they were writing with gothic sign, and latin too... They call us Serbs in Balkans, the Southern Serbs, and them just Serbs, but they are wrong... We (Serbs in Balkan) are older as nation... Most of their books are written in Gothic... Many of them were in some occult guilds, and many of them were interested in "Kamen Mudrosti i Večni Život" (something like Philosophers Stone and rentanjutsu), and Hitler was interested in that... But, since they didn't know anything about that (in which I don't believe), he killed almost all of them... Now there are 100.000 Lusatian Serbs left, and they live in Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia... There are many towns in Slovakia and Czech Republic that have names like, Srpsko Selo, Mala Srbija, etc. (Serbian Village, Little Serbia...) I have read many books about their connection with alchemy, Philosophers Stone, and eternal life,... And I believe, they knew something,...

I think there is actually no big difference between Rentanjutsu and Renkinjutsu in real life. They're just terms that were used to describe the same thing, and Arakawa made them two separate things : Renkinjutsu is associated to the use of alchemy in the western civilizations while rentanjutsu is associated to the chinese research in alchemy. She kept the core ideas of equivalent exchange, philosopher's stone and quest for immortality but made two different things for her own world, while in the real world they weren't so different.

I'm not that well versed here,but as far as i know,some kings want to be immortal,and they try to make 仙丹,but using mercury and those elements u mention above,and the result is being poisoned
pictures link in google image

it often appears in traditional fantasy stories.
oddly enough,they look a bit like white orbs like this :

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%82%BC%E4%B8%B9
link baidu
in chinese.i try to see if i can translate this.there's a lot of taoist terms i'm not good at it.

Well, there is a persian game at the time of the Roman Empire who has become quite famous because of his near-immunity to poison, thanks to him absorbing little doses of it every day. When he was defeated, I heard he had quite a hard time killing himself, and that he had to ask a servant to stab him in order to put him out of misery I Think he ws named Mithridates VI of Pontus... old dude gave a hard to generations of Roman generals

Hey, that white orb looks like a fruit called li zhi

Okay, I had to ask my parents about that Wiki article but even they don't know much about it because it's apparently related to some ancient Chinese medical stuff. Basically, they believed that the center of the body was in a small area (orb maybe?) slightly under your belly button (it's related to yin/yang too), and by doing different exercises (like breathing exercises) you can make yourself live longer. Sounds confusing, but it actually works, some people can lose and gain weight just by changing their breathing. Yeah...not sure if any of this is related to Rentanjutsu in FMA XD

@Vagrant - Official English sub of episode 15 of FMA:Brotherhood anime on Funimation.com translated Xing Alchemsy as "Alkahestry," (as noted & predicted by kitsunepixie ^^) and an Alchemist who performs Xing Alchemy is translated as "Alkahestrist."

Is that the official translation in the manga?

@Vagran - 1. You're welcome. 2. No, this is the official English translation for Xingese Alchemy in FMA: Brotherhood ANIME. You were asking for how it was called in FMA:B ANIME, correct? If you are asking an ADDITIONAL question of whether FMA manga uses the same translated word for Xing Alchemy, then the answer is no.

So far we find that FMA manga and FMA:B anime are using different names for same item/characters from Xing in several instances. In FMA manga we call Xing Alchemy "Rentanjitsu," although, according to North American English version of FMA manga Vol. 8, Xing Alchemy is called "Rendanshu." But, if you want to talk about Xing Alchemy in FMA MANGA, please go to Xingese Alchemy discussion thread.

<Post moved. ^^>

Well, when I originally asked about the official translation; I was thinking of the manga. Since that's the only thing that would've had a prior official translation at the time.

And the unofficial manga translation calls it rentanjutsu as well. So the anime and the manga call it the same thing. Albeit with different translations.

Suppose that confirms it has no meaning or literal translation or whatever.

That's what I suspected after they used 'alkahestry' - this term has only showed up in English FMA. It's invented because rentanjutsu has no true translation, it being an invented word itself, right? Or at least non-standard...

Also (and I'll get thwacked for more OTness), there's more than one official English manga translation: what we get in Australia/Oceania (Chuang Yi) first refers to both forms as alchemy, and then later by their untranslated names. To avoid confusion where the distinction shows up a lot more, I guess.

As for the Xingese characters not fitting in, well... isn't that a given? They're foreigners 8D They give an already yummy series even more flavour. As somebody who isn't much of a fan of Asian themes (screw ninjas, I'm a pirate girl, etc), I still really appreciate them. Mostly because Ling is great for comedy, and he has Tamaki's voice too, that's even better! You can tell I don't read/watch this specifically for the drama or complexity >>

Yeah, Qin Shi Huang (or Ch'in Shih Huang-ti or whatever the correct term for his name is.. ^^) the first emperor of China (Chin/ Shing /Xing ... or whatever the correct spelling should be.. ^^) who unified china and made the empire and also ordered to make Terracotta Army, and all that... he was said to have searched for immortality, and then kept taking the "immortality elixir" 仙丹 that was some kind of mercury mixture and eventually died of mercury poisoning (so I read.. Though I can't locate the source, so just take it as some "tale" XD .. I think that might have been on National Geographic magazine that had the special article on Terracotta Army. ^^) ....



That's basically controlling your "chi" right? And yes, you can manipulate the breathing and possibly lower heart rate, and blood pressure and that kind of stuff (like Bio-Feedback) and hence that may lead to longer life, etc., I think. Aaaand, "chi" is like the force that's within you, but also surround you, blah blah, basically "force be with you" Star War kind thing, I think?? Which, in my personal opinion is, some sort of electro magnetic kind of stuff, and the Earth has the lines of electro magnetic field running through (as May explains to Marcoh in one manga chapter) so if you know how to manipulate it you can perform remote Alchemy... or not...


BTW, it has nothing to do with the serious discussion, but I got to comment... XD

I know!! That's just a pic of a lychee. (I luv thunderbreak's humor here. XD)

I suppose so, but what exactly is your "chi" anyway? When my parents were explaining it to me, they didn't say anything about "chi," so is it a Japanese term? Lol @ Star Wars reference

OT: Those things are really good, but I ate so many when I was in the south with my dad that I got sick of them (same with mangoes)

When Ed used his own life force to heal himself, did he actually use rentanjutsu by accident?

I came to this conclusion by this train of thought:

(a)I assume that when Mei heals people, she uses the chi in that person (since she can't heal places there's no chi)
(b)she sensed a huge mass of chi underground, so it's safe to assume that the souls in Father = chi
(c )Ed used his "one-soul philosopher stone" to stop his bleeding and protect his vital organs, and since soul= chi, he's using his chi to heal himself -->rentanjutsu!

What do you think?

Ed couldn't heal himself completely, he just stopped the bleeding. And Mei also stopped the bleeding on Marco's face, we have not seen her done anything more in terms of healing. (very recent spoiler, read at own risk!)for chapter 101: Mei couldn't heal Riza completely as well, she said:"I stopped the bleeding for now." "We should get her to a doctor who can take care of the rest." (Tombow's translation). So we can see Ed's technique was very similar to Mei, with the same limitation.

I don't think so. With my own theories and understandings of Renkinjutsu and Rentanjutsu as they exist in the manga, the main thing that differentiates Rentanjutsu from Renkinjutsu is the fact that it enables long-distance transmutations and near-universal transmutation with only one circle. I think both use life-energy for transmutation, except that Renkinjutsu use an artificial source and Rentanjutsu use a natural source.

What Ed did was use up some of his life-energy to give more strength to his transmutations and heal himself, a true Deus Ex Machina move that Arakawa went out of her way to explain that it will never be used again. May would have just redirected that energy, modified the flow to heal the wound, not using up the energy. The reason Ed limited the healing is mainly because he didn't want to use too much of his own energy, while Rentanjutsu seems to have limitations on how modify the flow of energy.

Hmm... I haven't read any of the previous writings so I don't know what you all have guessed but here is some of my knowledge and/or speculation. I think the person who brought alchemy to Amestris was Father and the other person who brought rentanjutsu to Xing was Hohenheim. (I think actually that this is a quite common guess but the reason why I write this here is only to clarify my own thoughts.)
So after Xerxes had been destroyed, one person came to Amestris and brought knowledge of alchemy there. In the episode 18 of FMA:Brotherhood that person resembled Father (and Hohenheim) and we know that Father could prevent alchemists using their ability in the country (maybe by changing the source of the power used to do alchemy or something). Then there was also another person who was also said to be the only one who survived from the devastation of Xerxes and that person brought the knowledge of rentanjutsu to Xing (yeah and in that same episode this person resembled also Hohenheim and Father only made a little bit more like he had been from the East). Both of these bearers of that certain knowledge came from Xerxes and the only ones who survived there were Father and Hohenheim.
(Well I don't remember if there was said somewhere in the manga that Hohenheim went straight to Amestris (and definitely not to Xing) and if so, that will ruin my theory immediately but yeah, nothing can stop me trying I guess...)
So the starting point both alchemy and rentanjutsu were the same – they just separated and took different paths. Yeah... is there something I'm missing now... Well anyways this topic has almost been forgotten so by this I'm at least trying to attain some discuss here again. (was that just an excuse...? Probably...)