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His Name is Unknown
<Edited to add "in episode 4" to the thread title to better describe the content of this thread. 02/21/07 ~Tombow>


So, I was just watching episode 4 again and I've come to the conclusion that it is by far my least favorite episode in the series. Majahal was a totally unnecessary side character and the whole "oops I bumped my head" explanation for what happened to Karin was utter crap.

But really, my reason for starting this thread was a question raised by what Majahal said to Ed (see topic description). Did Majahal actually attempt human transmutation? and if so... [spoiler] why isn't there a homunculus that looks like Karin? [/spoiler]

If anyone has an answer to this, that would be awesome! Otherwise, I guess it's just a contradiction I'll have to deal with.
Popogeejo
His method of bringing her back was diffrent. Same as Shou Tucker trying to bring back Nina.
Maj was using souls already available (the towns girls) and Shou used fake memoires instead. It's the making a soul from nothing bit that causes Homunculus.

Atleast thats how I figure it works :S


Edited to fix bad spelling.
His Name is Unknown
Ah - thanks for the insight. That's entirely plausible. I don't mind not knowing the exact reason as long as there's some sort of logical explanation. Your theory is good enough for me.
sweety_pie
The reason the became like zombies was because Majohol said 'sometimes souls tend to reject foreign vessels, that are different from theirs in nature.'
So, he did not actually make a humunculous.
---
What I do not get is how Karin made Ed pass out just by flickering a candle.Did she actually do something else, that I did not notice?

----
QUOTE
susing

using?
QUOTE
difrent

different?
Tombow
QUOTE(popogeejo @ Sep 19 2006, 07:07 PM) [snapback]448516[/snapback]
It's the making a soul from nothing bit that causes Homunculus.
That, I'm not sure if that's correct, but yeah, otherwise I think Popo is correct that Majahal was only transffering existing soul to a doll. That's not trying to create a human, hence, no homuncli, I guess. You know, since Karin wasn't dead, it would be rather impossible to "resurrect" her. tongue.gif



BTW, If anyone has a simple question on the contents of any FMA anime episodes, please post on Questions on FMA anime, on any episode thread, and also, for any other questions on FMA anime content, please use this FMA anme Q&A thread. biggrin.gif
Popogeejo
QUOTE(sweety_pie @ Sep 20 2006, 04:46 AM) [snapback]448619[/snapback]

QUOTE
susing

using?
QUOTE
difrent

different?


You missed "avaialable" and I fixed my post now.

QUOTE(Tombow)
That, I'm not sure if that's correct, but yeah, otherwise Popo is correct that Maj was only transffering existing soul to a doll.


I always thought the the Homunculus were made when people didn't offer exchange for a soul during the Human transmutation...oh well.
His Name is Unknown
The only reason I asked was because the way the episode was written it made it sound as if Majahal had tried human transmutation, failed, and then resorted to the use of dolls in a vain effort to create living versions of his lost love.

I took this resignation to be satisfied with the physical as the reason why Lust said, "So Majahal is just a two-bit alchemist after-all. How disappointing." Meaning he wouldn't pursue the philosopher's stone because he was content to wallow in memories and forget his efforts at human transmutation.

In other words, I wasn't under the impression that his attempts at human transmutation involved the doll technique. I thought that was something he resorted to later out of desperation.
Wrath.
Hey,

Very, very interesting question.

Now, Majahal first tryed to "ressurect" Karin using alchemy. When that failed, he tried to attach other townsgirls souls to dolls.

FMA contradicts itself alot (ex: homunculus is a doll to the whole human transmutaion thing). One thing you can do is just ignore it. This episode is so irrelevent to the plot it's not even funny.

Second, my theory: Majahal was trying to ressurect Karin and nobody else, but Karin was alive, thus it failed from the start and no humonculus was born.

Third, spoiler (don't know how to make the box)


















Dante didn't nessesarily know Majahal or his love Karin, she knew about or made all the others and thus fed them the "red stones". Maybe Dante had no idea that Karin existed, and the homunculus withered until it was no more.
sweety_pie
QUOTE(Wrath. @ Sep 20 2006, 06:36 PM) [snapback]448848[/snapback]

FMA contradicts itself alot (ex: homunculus is a doll to the whole human transmutaion thing). One thing you can do is just ignore it. This episode is so irrelevent to the plot it's not even funny.

How is that an example of FmA contradicting itself?

CODE
[spoiler]Your words here[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Your wods here[/spoiler]
Amber_Alchemist
I think there are spoilers down under, so be aware. You've been warned. Tread carefully on the path ahead of you.







It all depends. In each Homunculi human transmutation people sacraficed something for the soul, so did Majahal sacrafice anything to get her soul back? Also, in each successful human transmutaion, the person who preformed it could use achemy without a transmutation circle. Majahal had to use a transmutation circles in order to preform alchemy. He never saw the gate. Besides, he was trying Soul Transmutation. He was just trying to retrieve Karin's soul. Majahal didn't have her remains either. In the Human Transmutations we were able to see in the series, each person trying to bring someone back used apart of that particular dead person as material. I think that's what Lust meant by, "So, he's nothing but a two bit alchemist after all.", because he didn't know how to use Human Transmutation.
All in all. I think this proves that he never preformed Human Transmutation, but Soul Transmutation and horribly at that. He never tried to transmute her body and soul at the same time. Using an alchemic solution for the body and something of hers like DNA or her remains for the soul. Thus, never actually using Human Transmutation. Then when those attempts failed, there was the kidnapping and the rest is history.
daylight
Lust said he was just a 2 - bit Alchemist because she came to the conclusion that Majahal could not, infact, do a successful human transmutation. Lust has been searching for a skilled alchemist to do the bidding of the sins. It was most likely the rumors of the living dead that drew her attention to the town in the first place. When she came to find out his doings were just plain trickery and desperative attempts at pleasing his hunger to see Karin, she drew that Majahal was indeed not worth her time.

Majahal does say his "attempts at Human Transmutation fail". But he never goes in to detail. That is the only reference he makes as well. This doesn't entail by any means what is going on with Karin. I would just declare that his attempts failed, because obviously, she isn't dead. So how could a human transmutation even go in to effect over someone who isn't really dead in the first place?

I would disagree that the episode entails no meaning. It all goes down to the Powers of Alchemy quotes that Alphonse talks about. In my opinion this episode sums up his "Alchemy has the power to delude people" comment, which is important when you think of all the things alchemy does to any given character in the series in terms of their aspirations and needs, whether it be to cause hurt, happines, or gain power, or help others.
Nicoli Flamel
QUOTE
It all depends. In each Homunculi human transmutation people sacraficed something for the soul, so did Majahal sacrafice anything to get her soul back? Also, in each successful human transmutaion, the person who preformed it could use achemy without a transmutation circle.


I don't think there's ever been a sucessful human transmutation. Also as I recall neither Ed nor Izumi clapped prior to atempting the transmutation and thus gaining access to the gate and later their powers.

QUOTE
Majahal had to use a transmutation circles in order to preform alchemy. He never saw the gate. Besides, he was trying Soul Transmutation. He was just trying to retrieve Karin's soul. Majahal didn't have her remains either. In the Human Transmutations we were able to see in the series, each person trying to bring someone back used apart of that particular dead person as material. I think that's what Lust meant by, "So, he's nothing but a two bit alchemist after all.", because he didn't know how to use Human Transmutation.


Wait was Karin dead? *has to rewatch that episode*

QUOTE
All in all. I think this proves that he never preformed Human Transmutation, but Soul Transmutation and horribly at that. He never tried to transmute her body and soul at the same time. Using an alchemic solution for the body and something of hers like DNA or her remains for the soul. Thus, never actually using Human Transmutation. Then when those attempts failed, there was the kidnapping and the rest is history.


Isn't this basically what Shou tucker tried to atempt with Nina, minus the kidnapping?
daylight
[quote name='Nicoli Flamel' date='Sep 27 2006, 09:31 AM' post='452046']
[quote]
Isn't this basically what Shou tucker tried to atempt with Nina, minus the kidnapping?
[/quote]

Yes. However his dolls were perfect versions of the real Nina, minus a soul. You can thank the Philosopher's stone for that. Majahal was just using dolls, and might I be the first to say if majahal can carve dolls like that he is a damn good.
juggalo
QUOTE(Amber_Alchemist @ Sep 23 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]450085[/snapback]

In the Human Transmutations we were able to see in the series, each person trying to bring someone back used apart of that particular dead person as material.

i think you need to do some re-watching. Ed and Al used the chemical makeup of a human body as opposed to the actual body of their mother.
Amber_Alchemist
QUOTE(juggalo @ Oct 10 2006, 04:49 AM) [snapback]457759[/snapback]

QUOTE(Amber_Alchemist @ Sep 23 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]450085[/snapback]

In the Human Transmutations we were able to see in the series, each person trying to bring someone back used apart of that particular dead person as material.

i think you need to do some re-watching. Ed and Al used the chemical makeup of a human body as opposed to the actual body of their mother.


Ed and Al used DNA, remember. Listen to what Edward said when he pricked his finger. The blood from them, which since their her sons, still counts as a part of her.


QUOTE(Nicoli Flamel @ Sep 27 2006, 09:31 AM) [snapback]452046[/snapback]

QUOTE
It all depends. In each Homunculi human transmutation people sacraficed something for the soul, so did Majahal sacrafice anything to get her soul back? Also, in each successful human transmutaion, the person who preformed it could use achemy without a transmutation circle.


I don't think there's ever been a sucessful human transmutation. Also as I recall neither Ed nor Izumi clapped prior to atempting the transmutation and thus gaining access to the gate and later their powers.

QUOTE
Majahal had to use a transmutation circles in order to preform alchemy. He never saw the gate. Besides, he was trying Soul Transmutation. He was just trying to retrieve Karin's soul. Majahal didn't have her remains either. In the Human Transmutations we were able to see in the series, each person trying to bring someone back used apart of that particular dead person as material. I think that's what Lust meant by, "So, he's nothing but a two bit alchemist after all.", because he didn't know how to use Human Transmutation.


Wait was Karin dead? *has to rewatch that episode*

QUOTE
All in all. I think this proves that he never preformed Human Transmutation, but Soul Transmutation and horribly at that. He never tried to transmute her body and soul at the same time. Using an alchemic solution for the body and something of hers like DNA or her remains for the soul. Thus, never actually using Human Transmutation. Then when those attempts failed, there was the kidnapping and the rest is history.


Isn't this basically what Shou tucker tried to atempt with Nina, minus the kidnapping?



I'm sorry. That was a mistake on my part. I meant after they used Human Transmutation they were able to preform alchemy without a transmutation circle. Anyway, I believe that even though no one has ever sucessfully brought someone back to life, making a Homunculus, whether by accident or not, is still considered as Human Transmutation.

No Karin wasn't dead. My point was is that Majahal could have probably still made a Homunculus, if he had used Human Transmutation properly. Even if he couldn't have made one, the gate would have still presented itself and he would be able to use alchemy without a transmutation circle. What I mean is, that Majahal just didn't know how to use Human Transmutation.

Yes, that's right. It's like what Sloth said about having to have a strong will to transmute a soul. I think that Tucker saw the gate and that's why he went mad. That is just what I got out of that moment, though. Tucker was just using soul transmutation and in the end, he either couldn't sacrafice apart of himself to bring her back out of cowardice or didn't know how to retrieve her soul.
Amber_Alchemist
I'm sorry I double posted. I edited my earlier post with this answer. Sorry.

QUOTE(Nicoli Flamel @ Sep 27 2006, 09:31 AM) [snapback]452046[/snapback]

QUOTE
It all depends. In each Homunculi human transmutation people sacraficed something for the soul, so did Majahal sacrafice anything to get her soul back? Also, in each successful human transmutaion, the person who preformed it could use achemy without a transmutation circle.


I don't think there's ever been a sucessful human transmutation. Also as I recall neither Ed nor Izumi clapped prior to atempting the transmutation and thus gaining access to the gate and later their powers.

QUOTE
Majahal had to use a transmutation circles in order to preform alchemy. He never saw the gate. Besides, he was trying Soul Transmutation. He was just trying to retrieve Karin's soul. Majahal didn't have her remains either. In the Human Transmutations we were able to see in the series, each person trying to bring someone back used apart of that particular dead person as material. I think that's what Lust meant by, "So, he's nothing but a two bit alchemist after all.", because he didn't know how to use Human Transmutation.


Wait was Karin dead? *has to rewatch that episode*

QUOTE
All in all. I think this proves that he never preformed Human Transmutation, but Soul Transmutation and horribly at that. He never tried to transmute her body and soul at the same time. Using an alchemic solution for the body and something of hers like DNA or her remains for the soul. Thus, never actually using Human Transmutation. Then when those attempts failed, there was the kidnapping and the rest is history.


Isn't this basically what Shou tucker tried to atempt with Nina, minus the kidnapping?



I'm sorry. That was a mistake on my part. I meant after they used Human Transmutation they were able to preform alchemy without a transmutation circle. Anyway, I believe that even though no one has ever sucessfully brought someone back to life, making a Homunculus, whether by accident or not, is still considered as Human Transmutation.

No Karin wasn't dead. My point was is that Majahal could have probably still made a Homunculus, if he had used Human Transmutation properly. Even if he couldn't have made one, the gate would have still presented itself and he would be able to use alchemy without a transmutation circle. What I mean is, that Majahal just didn't know how to use Human Transmutation.

Yes, that's right. It's like what Sloth said about having to have a strong will to transmute a soul. I think that Tucker saw the gate and that's why he went mad. That is just what I got out of that moment, though. Tucker was just using soul transmutation and in the end, he either couldn't sacrafice apart of himself to bring her back out of cowardice or didn't know how to retrieve her soul.
juggalo
ed and al used drops of thir blood-yes
they used part of trisha's body like YOU said-no
Amber_Alchemist
QUOTE(juggalo @ Oct 10 2006, 09:14 AM) [snapback]457815[/snapback]

ed and al used drops of thir blood-yes
they used part of trisha's body like YOU said-no


I said they used apart of that particular dead person. There was no body included in that sentence. Apart of someone can be their hair, blood, ect. Not necessarily the the body itself. Since Edward and Al were her children, they technically used some of her blood. Like I said, they used apart of that particular dead person as material. In Trisha's case it was DNA.
Semiotic Alchemist


QUOTE
Ed and Al used DNA, remember. Listen to what Edward said when he pricked his finger. The blood from them, which since their her sons, still counts as a part of her.


well then again,if you really get down to it, if Ed's DNA was his only direct link to their mother as a physical remnant, then that sorta doesn't work. Everyones DNA is made up with (roughly) half of it belonging to their mother, and (roughly) the other half belonging to the father. This gets into biology and mieosis . . .

so it would sorta then try to make only another Ed . . . wouldn't it? since it's his DNA. So maybe the whole physical remnant thing is innacurate, or this one little instance is a mistake, traded up for dramatic purposes.
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