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Popogeejo
Now I'm sure alot of you know there is alot of Rose hate around becasue "she's weak" but is she really all that weak? Alot of people say she is too easily influenced by others but I'm having second thoughts.

First we have Cornello;
Rose lost her Brother/boyfriend (depending on what you read) and Cornello says he and his faith can bring him back to life. The whole City follows this faith and Cornello has shown some rather snazzy miracles including bringing several folk back from the grave (ok, we know this is a lie but the townsfolk don't.) Rose follows this faith and when Ed comes along and says it's all lies but she doesn't agree with him but sticks to her convictions. Seems reasonable to me. It's only when Cornello tries the old "Giant killer bird monster" trick that she changes her mind and believes Ed.

Then we have Dante;
Now I may be stupid but I'm almost certain a 400+ year old, highly skilled Alchemist/Chemist could over power and hypnotize most people and a Mute, frail girl should be even easier.
Rose is suffering from shock and/or Trauma after "some bad .... went down" and this person comes along offering support and kindness and hints of a romantic affection. Who wouldn't follow Dante in that kind of situation even without Dante using any of her extra trickery to lure Rose to her side?
Also, if you look at Roses eyes when Ed finds her they are glazed over which suggests she was drugged/hypnotized.

I don't think Rose is weak, I think she just came across to very unlikely people who have far more power/cunning than a regular bad guy.

So do you guys think Rose is truly weak or just a victim of unlikely circumstances?

Sorry if this a repeat topic but I don't recall this topic coming up before...
nataliel
I`m still thinking, Rose is weak.

Firstly, remember what she did, when Ed and Al were about to leave Lior. She asked, crying, why have the brothers taken away Lior`s people only hope... (or something like that). Then Ed asked, if she wants to live with Cornello`s lies. And Rose had nothing to answer. Kept crying and asked what to do. And this is after Cornello`s bird-monster attacked her!!! Actually, she faced Cornello`s lie. But she still cried for her "only hope".
I think, only weak people sit and wait for wonders, and don`t want to face the reality (maybe it`s because they`re afraid).

I think even all of Lior`s citizens are kinda weak and not modern... Just like medieval people maybe. They NEED a leader, they NEED some god to believe in. And if they loose one, they surely will find another (ah, holy mother... mad.gif ). Somehow they remind me a sheep herd...(ok, maybe its too rude). And what`s really sad - it`s that in our, real life there are lots of such people...

Now, dealing with Dante. Ok, i agree. Not every person can resist some 400+ year old, highly skilled Alchemist. Simply, i see oh so poor and weak and even hypnotized Rose with very strong characters all around her (sorry, but even Nina is much stronger). And this makes Rose even weaker in my eyes.

I think, Rose is not so pleasant or interesting character for some people, because WE, the spectators, like to observe strong characters much more then weak.

I`ve finished. cool.gif
Popogeejo
QUOTE(nataliel @ Sep 19 2006, 03:43 PM) [snapback]448359[/snapback]
I`m still thinking, Rose is weak.

Firstly, remember what she did, when Ed and Al were about to leave Lior. She asked, crying, why have the brothers taken away Lior`s people only hope... (or something like that). Then Ed asked, if she wants to live with Cornello`s lies. And Rose had nothing to answer. Kept crying and asked what to do. And this is after Cornello`s bird-monster attacked her!!! Actually, she faced Cornello`s lie. But she still cried for her "only hope".


If Ed hadn't come along everyone would have been happy for quite some time. Ed basically screwed up the whole region. Cornello was their only hope at that time and even after an attempted murder Rose still had some strands of Faith. There are millions of folks everywhere who would act the same way (Evangelicals anyone?) Just because she has misplaced Faith doesn't make Rose weak, it makes her stupid.

QUOTE
I think, only weak people sit and wait for wonders, and don`t want to face the reality (maybe it`s because they`re afraid).
Welcome to the wonderful world of Religion.

QUOTE
I think even all of Lior`s citizens are kinda weak and not modern... Just like medieval people maybe. They NEED a leader, they NEED some god to believe in. And if they loose one, they surely will find another (ah, holy mother... mad.gif ). Somehow they remind me a sheep herd...(ok, maybe its too rude). And what`s really sad - it`s that in our, real life there are lots of such people...


That doesn't make Rose weak, it's makes her Religious.

QUOTE
Now, dealing with Dante. Ok, i agree. Not every person can resist some 400+ year old, highly skilled Alchemist. Simply, i see oh so poor and weak and even hypnotized Rose with very strong characters all around her (sorry, but even Nina is much stronger). And this makes Rose even weaker in my eyes.
But these people are very uncommon. You can't really compare the likes of Roy, Riza and Ed to Rose.

QUOTE
I think, Rose is not so pleasant or interesting character for some people, because WE, the spectators, like to observe strong characters much more then weak.


Strong characters can be dull, ever watch Dragonball Z? I think most people like to watch interesting but flawed characters.
nataliel
QUOTE(popogeejo @ Sep 19 2006, 07:53 AM) [snapback]448360[/snapback]

If Ed hadn't come along everyone would have been happy for quite some time. Ed basicly screwed up the whole region. Cornello was their only hope at that time and even after an attempted murder Rose still had some strands of Faith. there are millions of folks everywhere who would act the same way. (Evangelicals anyone?) just becaus ehse has misplaced Faith doesn't make Rose weak, it makes her stupid.

But don`t you remember, what exactly Cornello said about what he wanted to do with his believing people? He wanted to use them for his own aims, to manipulate them!!!
Who knows, what could it be then!!! Besides, what does that mean "Cornello was their only hope"? Remind me, what had happened to Lior citizens, that they ended up living with one last hope? No, really, maybe i forgot something.
And, no! I don`t think Rose is stupid. It looks more like this: Rose passed some hard and pressing scholar(?) during her life, that was compelling her to be obedient and shy. Maybe it was here parents... maybe some teacher... dont know...

QUOTE(popogeejo @ Sep 19 2006, 07:53 AM) [snapback]448360[/snapback]

That doesn't make Rose weak, it's makes her Religous.

Just like i said. Only weak people sit and wait for wonders.

QUOTE(popogeejo @ Sep 19 2006, 07:53 AM) [snapback]448360[/snapback]

Strong characters can be dull, ever watch Dragonball Z? I think most people like to watch interesting but flawed characters.

DragonBall, ha! laugh.gif
When i say "strong", i don`t mean just "terrible heap of muscles", in other words, not physical stregth, but strength of personality, of mind... Of, course you`re right about flawed characters. And ok, let me put it this way: it`s interesting to observe characters that have strong sides and weak sides; OR character that is developing from a weak to a strong; OR (now talking about physical strength) weak, but smart... And there`re more examples...
Fushi
I don't think Rose is weak, I think she's just human, one of the really human characters in the series. I sympathized with her alot because I know a lot of people who would act the same way in similar situations.

Besides everything that Popogeejo said (which I agree with 100%), there was also another scene that showed us that Rose is not 'weak'. That being the scene with her and all the children in Liore and she stands up to the soldiers. The same people I mentioned before who would act like her in similar situations, would not have acted like her there, and would've crumbled.

But then at the moment Rose DOES show strength, she is (literally) raped of it and left with a baby whose future she must now take into consideration, along with her own. So now the baby is influencing some of her decisions. (I'm sure the decision to go along with Scar's ideas was helped made by the presence of her baby, who she wants a safe and free future for) Can you blame a woman for becoming 'weak' after she finds out that strength just leads her to pain?

I quite like Rose. On the appearance she seems uninteresting, but actually isn't once you analyze her
Triple_Soul_Alchemist
I agree 100 percent with what popogeejo says. I could go on and on as to my opnion, but my mind is in "bleh" mode at the moment.

I will say this, though. The fangirls need to calm down. Just because she dances with Ed in a SINGLE episode is no cause for alarm. I doubt she was in her right mind at the time, anyway.
Colette
I know I've ranted on this before, and I'm too lazy to find my rant, so I'll just say I agree.
Molecular Alchemist
I think I've ranted about this before too....and you know...upon further concideration....weak may be the wrong word. I think....stupid. Yes, she could see that everything was going to hell, and she didnt listen to Ed and leave..instead she chose to stay. And she mouthed off to some army ppl...yeah, so i guess she could have been strong then...but she def wasnt smart.

However, later in the series...when she is just a puppet on a string...i think that could be weak..if she was strong, she wouldnt let herself break like that and stay broken.

Yeah, theyre crappy arguements..but im not in the mood to fight and argue..and i have a class to prep for. tongue.gif
Nepharski
Is Rose weak? Perhaps, but then I raise the question: who isn't? Okay, so she gets center stage, but she's no weaker than plenty of other characters, not to mention people in real life. She loses her family, boyfriend, hope, voice, free will, and gains a baby plot device in return. All that's left is to dismember her and leave her in a cardboard box and we'll call it a day.

Whether she's weak or not it's the issue, the issue is what would you do in such and such a situation? Rose get's screwed over pretty bad in the game of life. Cut her some slack. Not everyone can be called to lead a horde of bandits, you know.
CoffeAlchemist
QUOTE(Nepharski @ Sep 19 2006, 02:53 PM) [snapback]448449[/snapback]
Whether she's weak or not it's the issue, the issue is what would you do in such and such a situation? Rose get's screwed over pretty bad in the game of life. Cut her some slack. Not everyone can be called to lead a horde of bandits, you know.

-quicknod-
True.
I wouldn't call her weak, she's just a human, someone we can relate to.
And, she was very brave when she was confronted at Lior when those officers told her to leave.

huh.gif

I still can't believe she got raped..
nataliel
Nepharski, i agree - i`ve removed it.

Umm.. as so much people`re protecting Rose, i feel i must explain myself some more.
Maybe the reason, that Rose looks weak, is that she`s much closer to real person, then other characters that surround her: they (Ed, Al, Roy, Homunculus, Dante, Hohenheim, Winry etc....) have that special "anime-strength".
Try to put some real simple girl near Incredibles!
I say, the background of "anime superheroes" makes Rose weak.

And also, i think, i was influenced mostly by the last episodes. After that incident in Lior Rose DID showed some strength. I hoped she will keep doing so till the very end. But in the end she was "hypnotised" and didn`t show any desire to protect her baby...
(just put umm... Riza into her place! I`m sure, she would protect her baby even in "hypnotized mode"!)
Nepharski
QUOTE(nataliel @ Sep 20 2006, 02:37 AM) [snapback]448699[/snapback]

Nepharski, i agree - i`ve removed it.

Much obliged, Nataliel.

I've already said my peice. I've nothing to add.
Chiyo
I think what was just said is right...I am one who complains Rose is weak but I realise its compairing her to other characters in that anime and they are generally strong. More than weak she is a bit oblivious to how self centered and evil people can be. Being too trusting is her weakness, it just gets her into more trouble than most.
nataliel
Chiyo, right! right! cool.gif
Actually, i kinda like Rose. So, i hope there will be new FMA season, and Rose will get wiser and stronger there!!! I want her story continue. And how will be her grown up child!
SilverSnow
This thread may be ancient but whatever I'm not starting a new one when there's already one here.

So is rose weak? Hell yes.
why? look it is YOU heard me YOU! who determines the outcome of your life ok? and her being a good person/character have 0 to do with being strong.



She's weak because
-What kind of dumb*** do you need to be to belive some creepy priest can bring the dead back just like that without even getting anything in return because they're sooo good and they're such saints??

-If you follow a bunch of military guys when you're alone and you're a young girl you musn't be very smart.

-She tried to save other kids from getting raped or something, yes that's very nice but haven't you ever heard of what a PLAN is?

-She cries sooo much - _ - it's ok to cry but errr.... *looks at 400 ton pile of tissues*

-Everyone here knows this, in fact it's the first thing myparents told me : NEVER TRUST STRANGERS.

-Another thing that is kind of like the last thing trust no one.

-I agree it's hard to resist a 400 year olf alchemist but then why doesn't she start looking out for herself and use that little thing in her head called brain and say, oh until today I have not thought about how much weaker (physically) I am than alchemists, it's not safe because there's many things I don't know and overall faces we see hearts we don't, so I think I'll get far away from them for a while then plan if I want to know how and who they are,

-Her life wasn't going anywhere, it's isn't going anywhere and probably it won't be going anywhere, what does she do all days? doesn't she have plans for her life? like I need to do something, I dunno maybe she can start a donations for the poor center or she can learn to do something or go to school or learn the way to treat with people, what kind is good, what kind is bad etc.

-All her reactions are stupid, very naive. nice has nothing to do with stupid.
Popogeejo
QUOTE(SilverSnow @ May 22 2007, 03:23 AM) [snapback]545856[/snapback]
She's weak because
-What kind of dumb*** do you need to be to belive some creepy priest can bring the dead back just like that without even getting anything in return because they're sooo good and they're such saints??

Father Cornello gave weekly displays of his power. Turning a stump into a giant iron statue is a pretty convincing trick so you can't seriously hold it against Rose. Billions of people believe in Religions with far less evidence backing them than Cornellos church.

QUOTE
-If you follow a bunch of military guys when you're alone and you're a young girl you musn't be very smart.
1) She was taken by force,
2) Even if this wasn't the case these people weren't going to give her a choice. If she had refused odds are she would have been shot.

QUOTE
-She tried to save other kids from getting raped or something, yes that's very nice but haven't you ever heard of what a PLAN is?

Her whole village has been thrown into chaos, she managed to find a relativity safe hiding place and save some kids. You do better in a war zone.

QUOTE
-She cries sooo much - _ - it's ok to cry but errr.... *looks at 400 ton pile of tissues*
Yeah, it's not like her whole life and belief system had just come crashing down around her head...oh wait, it did!

QUOTE
-Everyone here knows this, in fact it's the first thing my parents told me : NEVER TRUST STRANGERS.

Which stranger are you referring to?
The kindly Preacher who has saved the Village and brought them prosperity?
The odd young boy and the guy in armour who claim the religion is false without evidence?
The military who took her by force (in more ways than one)?

Be more specific please.

QUOTE
-Another thing that is kind of like the last thing trust no one.

Ed trusted Roy therefore Ed must be weak...

QUOTE
-I agree it's hard to resist a 400 year olf alchemist but then why doesn't she start looking out for herself and use that little thing in her head called brain and say, oh until today I have not thought about how much weaker (physically) I am than alchemists, it's not safe because there's many things I don't know and overall faces we see hearts we don't, so I think I'll get far away from them for a while then plan if I want to know how and who they are,
I don't even begin to understand this.
Rose went through a traumatic experience and was in shock. This means she was unable to think clearly. You can't blame her for following someone who offered her protection and looked after her.

QUOTE
-Her life wasn't going anywhere, it's isn't going anywhere and probably it won't be going anywhere, what does she do all days? doesn't she have plans for her life? like I need to do something, I dunno maybe she can start a donations for the poor center or she can learn to do something or go to school or learn the way to treat with people, what kind is good, what kind is bad etc.

WTF?
It's never said how her life was doing except that she was apparently happier and her boyfriend/brother (depending on translations) had died.
As for the donations statement, she helps out at the church. She appears to only be a few years older than Ed (about 16-17) so you can't blame her for apparently having no plans. Besides, none of that was a sign of weakness.

QUOTE
-All her reactions are stupid, very naive. nice has nothing to do with stupid.

Again, nothing to do with weakness...

All you've basically said is "Why didn't she know what the viewer knew and act in a more heroic fashion?"
Alchemical
Well, it depends on how you look at it, in my opinion. One reason she may be 'weak' is because, before her boyfriend/brother died, she lived a very peaceful and sheltered life. Even afterwards, she was taken 'under the wing', to say the least, of Cornello. And it was a pretty big thing to deal with, being lied to like that, not long after the death of her loved one.

Besides, she also went through many, many other hardships, such as the baby, her city being torn to bits, and watching some pretty scary things happen right before her eyes. I don't think anyone has the right to call her 'weak', because we would be just like her if those things happened to us. People just take things differently.
Mrs.Briefs
I agree with most things said here. It's why I can't find myself to dislike her when she has her moments. I would think that if some were her, they'd probably just go ahead and commit suicide, lol. But she didn't. That says something about her. I don't really see how she could've taken all that any better than what she did really.

And now that I think of it Popo that 'stranger' she was talking about could've been Dante. (The one who can answer that is her herself though.) And if that's the case, like he said.


QUOTE
Rose is suffering from shock and/or Trauma after "some bad .... went down" and this person comes along offering support and kindness. Who wouldn't follow Dante in that kind of situation even without Dante using any of her extra trickery to lure Rose to her side?
Where else could she go?
Amethyst Sunset
And it's not just her boyfriend that Rose lost. In episode 1, it was mentioned that she also lost her parents at an early age. A lot of people would already commit suicide after losing a single loved one. Rose was really just hanging by a thread when she encountered Cornello - and assuming that she wasn't very familiar with alchemy before she met Ed and Al, his parlor tricks looked like miracles to her and the rest of Lior.

Of course, once she learns of the truth, that Cornello, the big fat fraud that he is, just used alchemy, Rose was also distressed, knowing that she can no longer trust the man she once had faith in. Things would have gone a lot more smoothly without the Elrics revealing Cornello's trickery, but of course, the truth will set you free. XD

Then there's ol' Envy posing as Cornello and causing a huge uprising that calls for military intervention. Now then, who can admit that they can protect a group of kids during the chaos like Rose did? She even stood up to General Hakuro and got slapped because of it (and yes, got raped as well). A lot of us, when faced by a general like that, would probably just stay silent.

Dante...she's Dante. And I thought she was rather convincing to Rose, like Cornello...I guess you could say that even though she has been deceived in the past, Rose continues to trust. In my book, that's pretty brave, and selfless. And the baby she got from the raping...instead of killing him or giving him to someone else for adoption, she chose to take care of him herself. (Erm, do correct me if my assumptions that the baby is a guy are wrong. XD) It was a duty she didn't run away from.

And it wasn't her fault she was under Dante's control. Even though Rose can be a little too trusting at times, she isn't weak. She's just been through a lot and is struggling to carve her own niche into the world, to get up and use her pair of strong legs. happy.gif In fact, I'm surprised that despite all that, she hasn't committed suicide yet.

*bows* In short, I agree with everyone else that Rose is not weak. And yes, I am rather fond of her character. I especially liked the part where she got her voice back and told Ed to get up and move forward when he was paralyzed at the sight of Sloth.
Chiyo
Unfortunatly, I don't think you can use the arguement of her losing people too much as she is not the only one. Showing how they react to loss defines the character. Ed and Al become determined and strong, Winry and Pinako get on with life, Rose becomes vulnerable to people using her because of it.

I'd say thats part of the reason people see her as weak, they have others to compare her to.
Amethyst Sunset
QUOTE(Chiyo @ May 23 2007, 06:10 PM) [snapback]546422[/snapback]
Unfortunatly, I don't think you can use the arguement of her losing people too much as she is not the only one. Showing how they react to loss defines the character. Ed and Al become determined and strong, Winry and Pinako get on with life, Rose becomes vulnerable to people using her because of it.

I'd say thats part of the reason people see her as weak, they have others to compare her to.


And Roy decides to become Fuhrer after his Ishbal massacre experiences.

FMA is full of strong characters. If Rose weren't around, it would get a little boring. Imperfection is unpredictable, therefore more exciting. Besides, not everyone can be as strong as Ed and Al and almost everyone else in the series.
Popogeejo
QUOTE
A lot of people would already commit suicide after losing a single loved one.

While I agree with most of your post this just just struck me as rather odd and uninformed. In truth very few people consider/commit suicide due to losing a loved one...
ehxhfdl14
Well, personally, I think of Rose as a person that went through a transition, from weak → strong, because when the Elrics first visited Lior, she was just so...needy and naive to the ways of the world. From the start, I had a suspicion that she-and quite a few townsfolk, too, as I found out-needed someone to hold on to for support, somebody to cling to. The refusal to face the truth, the fact that the 'prophet' was fake, just solidified my suspicion. If she faced the truth, the one person she leaned on for support would be gone, along with the fragile hope of her lover's resurrection.
After the Elrics' departure. All right, so she didn't arm herself to fight the soldiers. So what? She didn't have the skill. Now, whatever Hollywood tells you, guns, especially rifles that are being shown as being used by the Liorians in the war, require actual skill. You have to be able to aim and reload, and before that, the firearms are heavier than they look. Rose obviously didn't have the training. Besides, I doubt many of the people in the world would, in that situation, do what Rose did. Because she couldn't fight, Rose did the next best thing she could-Rose tried to protect ones that were even more vulnerable than she, the children. Here, we see a glimpse of what she has become, not just a weak girl that needs to be protected from the world, but rather a woman that is prepared to 'walk on her two own legs'. She even defies the soldiers, which is pretty brave. Too bad she gets raped after, though. But it's the most realistic thing that could have happened, besides Rose being killed by the soldiers, or something akin to it.
Now, about the Dante thing. I'm not really sure what happened there. It looked like she was hyptonized, because if she was drugged, Ed dying wouldn't really break her out of her trance-like state, would it? Well, maybe she went into shock, but I find that unlikely. So she's not really to be blamed for being docile around Dante. Or dancing with Ed. Come on, that was one dance. one. She probably didn't even know what she was doing. I don't know where Dante came up with the idea that Ed liked Rose though. Yes, he blushed, but he really didn't have any experience around girls, other than Winry, and he's known her for, I don't know, all his life? So since Winry doesn't really count, and Ed's been busy with his quest and all, this was likely his first intimate exchange with a girl (Psiren thing disregarded).
So I'm trying to say behind the senseless rambling is that yes, Rose was weak at first, but with time, she matured into a stronger persona. That's it.
Amethyst Sunset
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ May 23 2007, 10:59 PM) [snapback]546444[/snapback]
QUOTE
A lot of people would already commit suicide after losing a single loved one.

While I agree with most of your post this just just struck me as rather odd and uninformed. In truth very few people consider/commit suicide due to losing a loved one...


Okay, maybe some people. ^^; I live in a country where suicide for that reason is not uncommon, so I might have been biased.

And to add to my two cenzts, in the movie, Rose can be seen protecting children - at least, that's how I saw it - with Armstrong when the suits of armor from the other side of the Gate came in and Al drove them back.
Chiyo
QUOTE(Amethyst Sunset @ May 23 2007, 03:41 PM) [snapback]546440[/snapback]
FMA is full of strong characters. If Rose weren't around, it would get a little boring. Imperfection is unpredictable, therefore more exciting. Besides, not everyone can be as strong as Ed and Al and almost everyone else in the series.


Well, exactly, but thats just saying that Rose IS a weak character, for that is how she is designed to be. She gives the variant from the 'stronger' characters.
Amethyst Sunset
QUOTE(Chiyo @ May 25 2007, 05:56 PM) [snapback]547025[/snapback]
QUOTE(Amethyst Sunset @ May 23 2007, 03:41 PM) [snapback]546440[/snapback]
FMA is full of strong characters. If Rose weren't around, it would get a little boring. Imperfection is unpredictable, therefore more exciting. Besides, not everyone can be as strong as Ed and Al and almost everyone else in the series.


Well, exactly, but thats just saying that Rose IS a weak character, for that is how she is designed to be. She gives the variant from the 'stronger' characters.


Whoops, looks like I contradicted meself. A faux pas in debate. XDDDD

Guess what I meant to say is that even though she isn't portrayed to be as strong as everyone else, and strong in the same sense as everyone else, Rose is still strong in her own way.
Chiyo
Oh agreed, and I didn't mean to suggest her 'weakness' is wrong anyway, because as you say it makes her who she is. As stated, she comes across as 'weak' because of the type of person that surrounds her.....but in the same way Ed seems arrogant next to his brother...Wrath is a whiney child next to Envy etc.
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