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Automail Really Can Work!
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Kel
post Jul 21 2006, 10:38 PM
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wow...actually doing that much for a cat takes a lot of time and money O_o what a waste

Iam impressed that it worked but I think...well...POOR CAT! I'd rather let it stay without the leg, I've met many happy legless kittens ^^ personally, if I was crippled I would choose a fake limb rather than automail, cheaper, easier and less weight and rehab to go through! but if automail was the only choice I would totally do it...I would never tolerate being a cripple, even if it meant almost dying from the pain ><


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Gamester3333
post Jul 22 2006, 12:44 AM
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Yeah, there are ways to lessen the pain, like current prosthetics, but the reason automail is so appealing, is that you can get fine motor skills to work properly. Current prosthetics use computers, which, as you might know, only work with 1's or 0's, making numbers between them impossible (when dealing with integers, floating-point can), like when you connect a computer to the nerves. It can't understand a signal that is stronger near the top, and weaker on the bottom, due to hardware issues. Analog input, like the motor control, or, more like the stick on a playstation controller, can. Automail takes the analog input, with no intermediate transmitter (the computer), and amplifies the signal enough to move the motors in different ways, at different speeds.

Someday, we will be able to integrate this technology into ourselves at birth (circumcision comes close).

Think Strogg (for you quake fans).
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Migchao
post Jul 22 2006, 01:16 AM
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Poor kitty cat... sad.gif

QUOTE
Also, knowing that the cat can move like normal is a good thing to hear, and that the pain didn't come for a total waste.


But wouldn't the cat be scared of humans since the pain they caused it? huh.gif
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sweety_pie
post Jul 22 2006, 09:31 AM
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QUOTE
It's kinda like equevalent exchange.


Where is the equevalent exchange if the cat had died?When does the cat come in?

puppet.alchemist what was the point of your post?
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woooooooooow
Wtf is with that?


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kojirou
post Jul 22 2006, 10:35 AM
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QUOTE(HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 21 2006, 06:36 PM) [snapback]424235[/snapback]

Think of it this way, what would happen if they had performed the operation on a human, but the pain was more than expected, it killed him? Would it not be more reasonable to test if the technology will first work than to risk a human life? I know that the cat has a life too, but think of all the other types of research that is being performed on animals right now, or those that were done in the past. Most benefited humanity. It's kinda like Equivlent Exchange, a cat is used as the price to find out if automail is possible, and if it can be done to humans. Right now, the pain's too much, I agree, but I'm positive they will come up with some way to lessen it.


We all know that there are certain animal rights that are entitled to each and every animal there is. Yes, man can utilize these animals for testing certain procedures not yet attempted on humans, but not all procedures can be done on them. Limits should be set such that the poor creatures don't suffer much.

Even in humans, the consent of either the patient or relatives must be given to doctors in order to perform certain operations or procedures that have risks, or would put the patient in great suffering. Well I guess the poor feline was not able to give consent to his operation.

Experiments like these, sometimes are required though. For most of the folks out there moving to the advancement of our technology, a life of a cat is nothing compared to the glory, the benefits, the help, and the new hope that it could give to those who need it. It's a sad reality, that only yuman lives are often valued.


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Edamame
post Jul 22 2006, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE(Aoko-chan @ Jul 22 2006, 02:08 AM) [snapback]424239[/snapback]

QUOTE(HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 22 2006, 06:50 AM) [snapback]424208[/snapback]

It may sound cruel, but remember what Pinako said: even the toughest men have broken down when their nerves were connected to automail. I'm sure once they find a way to make that pain go down a bit, automail will exist in our world, to actually be used on humans.


True, Pinako said that, but those men DID choose to have automails, they accepted the pain. But, the cat probably did NOT choose to endure such pain of connecting the nerves, which makes it very cruel. If they do find to lessen the pain, automail existing in our world is someting quite interesting (me being a fan of automail). Also, knowing that the cat can move like normal is a good thing to hear, and that the pain didn't come for a total waste.


Unfortunately for the animals, many of our medicines are tested upon them. As Aoko-chan has mentioned, the cat did not choose to endure such excruciating pain and more importantly the cat did not have the choice. I truly see this as an issue of ethics now and I do agree with the experiment whole-heartidly. It would be wonderful to see such an advancement as automail, but I do not want to begin to think about how many animals would have to suffer until scientist were able to lessen the intensity of pain that was felt upon the connection of nerves. At the same time, there is that constantly nagging thought at the back of my mind that keeps on telling me that without animal testing we would not have some of our greatest cures. I was wondering if you have an actual article regarding this experiment because I am interested to see how they carried this out.


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HalfAsian Alchem...
post Jul 22 2006, 06:12 PM
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Yes, it is true that many practices, including medical, are first performed on animals. But, think about it this way, even if a test animal dies, odds are it would have had we not intervened. Life is so fragile, that the safe bet would be no life at all. That being said, this research is being done to promote a better life for all those who find themselves sudden amputees. Also, that cat would still suffer had it not recieved the automail, it would have to learn to walk all over. True, it is nowhere near the suffering done by automail, yet ask yourself this, if you absolutely had to, would you rather use automail that has not been tested, or automail that, while it has been tested, was tested on animals? I know I would want the tested automail. At least this way, there will be fewer human deaths than if they went straight to human testing.


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Sensenic
post Jul 23 2006, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE(Gamester3333 @ Jul 21 2006, 10:37 PM) [snapback]424168[/snapback]

I forget where I saw this, but a team of students at a college (I think it was in ohio) designed automail for a cat, using the ideas of how automail should work from FullMetal Alchemist.

They used low-power servos, and connected the automail directly to the nerves where the limb was severed (by a car).

Amazingly, it worked just like in the show!! Fine motor skills and everything!

The arm felt no pain, but it moved! The cat didn't even know the difference.

The only reason it was disregarded as a permanent solution for limb replacement is that also, like in the show, there was immense pain upon connecting it, much like if you have your speakers turned up all the way, and then connect the signal. The pain was so intense, that no matter how many sedatives they gave the cat, she wouldn't stop meowing. It almost died, so the procedure couldn't be done on humans, but even so, automail really can work.[font=Arial]

Impressive!

Could you provide a source, tho? I'd like to read more about it.


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Edamame
post Jul 23 2006, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE(HalfAsian Alchemist @ Jul 23 2006, 01:12 AM) [snapback]424659[/snapback]

Yes, it is true that many practices, including medical, are first performed on animals. But, think about it this way, even if a test animal dies, odds are it would have had we not intervened. Life is so fragile, that the safe bet would be no life at all. That being said, this research is being done to promote a better life for all those who find themselves sudden amputees. Also, that cat would still suffer had it not recieved the automail, it would have to learn to walk all over. True, it is nowhere near the suffering done by automail, yet ask yourself this, if you absolutely had to, would you rather use automail that has not been tested, or automail that, while it has been tested, was tested on animals? I know I would want the tested automail. At least this way, there will be fewer human deaths than if they went straight to human testing.


I agree that animal testing is a necessarey evil, but I really want to read an article to learn more about how they carried out the experimentation. I understand that they are a group of college students so I am not exactly sure if they would use the same means as proffesional doctors and researches who have study this field. I can not even fathom the amount of pain that the cat endured considering it still meowed in pain even after being given sedatives. I would never go straight to human testing for something like this, but I think more research needs to be done before trying it out on a helpless animal. (Many animals show remarkable recovery when it comes to amputation. I show a go on television that lost both its front legs but adapted to "hopping" around on two legs. It was pretty remarkable.)


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JadeAlchemist
post Jul 25 2006, 02:05 AM
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QUOTE(Gamester3333 @ Jul 21 2006, 08:37 PM) [snapback]424168[/snapback]

I forget where I saw this, but a team of students at a college (I think it was in ohio) designed automail for a cat, using the ideas of how automail should work from FullMetal Alchemist.

They used low-power servos, and connected the automail directly to the nerves where the limb was severed (by a car).

Amazingly, it worked just like in the show!! Fine motor skills and everything!


Well, there are prosthetics used all over the world, just not as good as the automails in the FMA series.


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kojirou
post Jul 25 2006, 02:35 AM
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QUOTE(JadeAlchemist @ Jul 25 2006, 02:05 AM) [snapback]425413[/snapback]

Well, there are prosthetics used all over the world, just not as good as the automails in the FMA series.


Yes, there are. But what I know is, there's no prosthetic body part that is directly connected to the nerves.


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AMAG_Chic
post Jul 25 2006, 03:12 AM
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People on both sides of this debate have made good points. I feel sorry for the cat too and it's apparent that these students didn't take every precautions before doing such a drastic test. If they planned every aspect of the situation, the cat would not have been in such pain or nearly died because of it. They should of went for something smaller, so that people wouldn't get this upset about it.

Yet, as much as I love animals and feel that they shouldn't be used in such ways, I would rather it be a cat than a human life.


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Slicer007
post Jul 28 2006, 06:09 AM
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QUOTE(Gamester3333 @ Jul 21 2006, 01:37 PM) [snapback]424168[/snapback]

I forget where I saw this, but a team of students at a college (I think it was in ohio) designed automail for a cat, using the ideas of how automail should work from FullMetal Alchemist.

They used low-power servos, and connected the automail directly to the nerves where the limb was severed (by a car).

Amazingly, it worked just like in the show!! Fine motor skills and everything!

The arm felt no pain, but it moved! The cat didn't even know the difference.

The only reason it was disregarded as a permanent solution for limb replacement is that also, like in the show, there was immense pain upon connecting it, much like if you have your speakers turned up all the way, and then connect the signal. The pain was so intense, that no matter how many sedatives they gave the cat, she wouldn't stop meowing. It almost died, so the procedure couldn't be done on humans, but even so, automail really can work.[font=Arial]

I'm not sure if I should be amazed or disgusted!

I think we all have to remember that all pain is temporary.
If the cat had died the pain would be gone but the cat lived and they said it
hardly noticed the automail leg sothe pain is gone.
Yet,I do agree that they did it to an unwilling cat.
(A liiiiiittle bit mean)





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Ushinatta
post Jul 28 2006, 03:36 PM
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I agree about it being cruel to do that to the cat, it doesn't have a say, but the idea that Automail could work is really interesting.

I wouldn't care about the pain in exchange for a working leg. The pain is only temporary after all....we feel it everyday.

Would anyone happen to have any further information about this?
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InsaneFangirl
post Jul 28 2006, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE(asunder @ Jul 21 2006, 02:30 PM) [snapback]424184[/snapback]

That sounds so fu*cking cruel.


Seriously. No matter how much I love FMA, some things aren't meant to be in our world. It's anime, no matter how you look at it. Poor cat.


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