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Manga FMA Homunculi!, What are they? How are they created?? Their unique characteristics?
Popogeejo
post Mar 19 2006, 01:59 AM
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Brad's lines could be covred by his uniform and his black vest.(I'm not gonna be caught out by his trip into the sewers..oh no wink.gif )
And yes I do like Arakawa's detail.(Especialy when Glutt's was looking at Barry(the body) and lust was sitting on him)

As for Prides gender,didn't Envy say "He's[Pride] taken to showing p at useless times"?

RanFan and Ling can sense soul(ki) because of a Martial arts technique I think.Some chinese arts have the smae ideas IIRC...


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KainSword
post Mar 19 2006, 05:24 AM
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Edited post due to relevance of the manga versus anime...
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Automne
post Mar 19 2006, 05:32 AM
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Please, don't go talking about the anime here. If you don't know anything about the manga, it was better not to post. The manga and anime are very different, keep that in mind.


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Popogeejo
post Mar 19 2006, 05:37 AM
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I don't mean to be rude but this is in the MANGA thread,therefore it's about the manga Homunclui.Due to several reasons they are very diffrent.

In the manga they live up to their names more...
Sloth is said to be lazy and dim witted
The others are pretty obvious(appart fromk pride who has yet to be properly shown)

You really need to read the Manga to know what we're talking about.I don't mean to sound snobish but it is very diffrent from the Anime.
For a start Hoenhiem didn't make the Homunc's "Father" did.
Dante doesn't exist in the Manga either.
Warth is King Brad...I could go on.
your ideas are solid if this were the anime though.(Even though I'm convinced the lines have some role other than fashion wink.gif )

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Antimony
post Mar 19 2006, 08:51 AM
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I have a point to add about the lines on the Sins' bodies; I think the circles at the ends of them are more important. They can be used to weaken a homunculus or turn off his powers by disrupting his regeneration cycles. Remember Wrath weakens Greed by stabbing his swords through the four circles' on his torso. He lost consciousness at that point, allowing him to be transported to Father. The swords are still stuck in the same spots when he's tied up . My guess is that they are what prevented his body from regenerating when he's later 'dissolved' in the tub of acid. So far it seems only Father and the homunculi know about this weakness, but if the Elrics' and co. found out it would be very useful in battles.




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Popogeejo
post Mar 19 2006, 09:00 AM
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Yeah,those are the pics that got my intrest up in the first place...poor Greed sad.gif


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Colette
post Mar 19 2006, 09:35 AM
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On the homunculi has souls thing, I've always said yes, even in the anime, where it's constantly contridicting itself. They act to human not to be. Sure, some are really evil, but so was Hitler, and he had a soul. (Look at the anime section for my two cents) After all, Greed was asking Al how to bind a soul to an object, how can a souless creature do that? tongue.gif

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Apparently, they have a piece of Father's soul in him. Maybe he divided his soul into eight pieces (Or seven, depends on how you look at it) for each of his sins? (And left one piece in his body) Maybe there was a hint of good in the greedy part of Father's soul.

This is all guesswork, I don't know a thing biggrin.gif


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MonsterEnvy
post Mar 19 2006, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE(Summoner Colette @ Mar 19 2006, 09:20 AM) [snapback]365620[/snapback]

On the homunculi has souls thing, I've always said yes, even in the anime, where it's constantly contridicting itself. They act to human not to be. Sure, some are really evil, but so was Hitler, and he had a soul. (Look at the anime section for my two cents) After all, Greed was asking Al how to bind a soul to an object, how can a souless creature do that? tongue.gif

my two cents on Hitler: No one is actually evil, it's just how others percieve their actions. Hitler was a lunatic who actually thought that he was helping the world...(he wasn't of course, don't think i'm a neo-nazi or anything) but that's another topic altogether.
QUOTE(Summoner Colette @ Mar 19 2006, 09:20 AM) [snapback]365620[/snapback]

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Apparently, they have a piece of Father's soul in him. Maybe he divided his soul into eight pieces (Or seven, depends on how you look at it) for each of his sins? (And left one piece in his body) Maybe there was a hint of good in the greedy part of Father's soul.

This is all guesswork, I don't know a thing biggrin.gif

hmmm... Perhaps the homunculi are sort of like fingers and toes to father? He can't control them *directly* but they seem like extensions of his body. They can be reclaimed, and *incubated* in him, and they're obviously under his control. Greed did desert him... so i'm not sure how far that theory goes, but it's something to speculate about.
Just some more guesswork biggrin.gif


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Nepharski
post Mar 19 2006, 02:10 PM
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So, Ran Fan can see souls and ki because she's awesome? Bradley must share that elemental power in some way. tongue.gif

QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 18 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]365488[/snapback]
QUOTE(Nepharski @ Mar 18 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]365474[/snapback]

Gluttony is growing from Father. Does this mean that Father's bodily composition is the same as Gluttony's, eg, is made of souls (or the same elements of people)?
No idea on that one. I actually don't think that's Guttony coming out of him, just existing inside him. I'm going to assume Greed made similar indentations while inside the Father, but revealing that would have revealed that Greed was truely alive.

Not sure about that one. Greed wasn't being regrown, he needed a new body b/c his old one was rebellious. This is why he needed to be put in Ling. i think it was you (though maybe it was Sensenic) who mentioned Gluttony being "recharged". That's probably closest to what it is.

You don't understand. That was not Gluttony being recharged or rebuilt inside him, it was the gluttony of the Stone existing inside him. Remember how when Ling get's Greed's stone and sees Greed as the Ultimate Sheild? Greed said it was his true form. So, while Father was holding Greed hostage in his body, I see no reason why Greed wouldn't be rummaging around. That's Gluttony in him, squirming around now, until Father can find a way to prolonge the Stone.


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Attention Manga Lust fans:
Lust is dead. Finished. Kaput. Joined the Choir Invisible. Roy Mustang incinerated her repeatedly until her Philosopher's Stone dried up and dissolved into nothingness ("Mu" for you Japanese cultural enthusiasts). And she will remain killed off, written out of the plot. Greed was reincarnated because Father saved his Philosopher's Stone and had a guinea pig on hand. Lust is gone. Stop trying to play God with the plot line and bring her back at every possibly junction.
In the event that Hiromu Arakawa can skillfully maneuver around this narrative plot hole, I will eat my words with a pinch of salt.
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Full Metal Elf
post Mar 19 2006, 02:22 PM
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Interesting that you bring up Greed...because then that makes me think of how the anime sort of made a mistake then....Greed wanted the same thing in the anime....yet nothing was ever mentioned by Al or Ed...about how he wouldn't be able to do it anyway, since he didn't have a soul, because the Homunculi in the anime don't have souls.


But this is an interesting topic....I agree that they have souls, and that they are part of the Father's soul. Of course then I would want to know...why did he create them in the first place?..Is it simply for world domination or whatever?

But I can't wait to get more answers on that...


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Sensenic
post Mar 20 2006, 04:17 AM
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Wow... lotsa things to discuss here... With all these discussion threads going on as of late, it's getting somehow stressing happy.gifU
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]

Well, we're familiar with the basics of homunculi. However, there's a lot that we don't know that deserves some speculation. Father and Hohenheim discussion, too.
To recap "canon" details:
The homunculi have the Philosopher's stone as their nucleus.
The homunculi are can regenerate by using the energy in the stones to transmute(?) their new bodies/body parts out of (??)

Yes.
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]

They look like they're made out of souls. (the souls coming from their stones make up their bodies)
On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?

Not at all. The souls are the "accumulated energy" that is used to create the hommuculi's physical body, which, PS aside (and Envy's case too) is identical to that of a human being (same organs 'n stuff). They even have nerves and feel pain (which can be quite bothersome when your main strategy is to let your enemy discharge his weapon on you and then regenerate, to the despair of the other side XD "The bullets, they do nothing".)
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]

Gluttony is growing from Father. Does this mean that Father's bodily composition is the same as Gluttony's, eg, is made of souls (or the same elements of people)?

Well... hommunculi are not "made from souls", as I said before... they are made of Flesh and Bone... It's just that the "info" on how their body is is kept in the Stone (just like the DNA in our case), and it regenerates from it anytime it's needed, as long as the Stone has enough energy (as the Stone is not only the source of the info but of the energy to rebuild it too, in this case).

As for Daddy, WTF is he... unknown for now.
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]

Homunculi can transmute(?) their bodies (Lust, her fingers, Envy, his form, Greed, his carbon, Gluttony, his stomach (doors), Pride, (?), Sloth, (?), Wrath, does something, but the way it transmutes is unclear. If anyone can actually explain what the Ultimate Eye does, i'd be enlightened)
The homunculi transmute like Father: No circle, and no clappiness or similar. Unlike father, they can only transmute in one way. Is this by choice, or the onlly way that they can use alchemy? Could they theoretically use circles?

What Nepharski said.

I believe that the hommunculi can only do what they know how to do "by instinct" (instinct as in knowledge that is there from birth, not learnt). In this case their instincts are the knowledge that was put into the stone (how exactly, if the power actually depends on the sin or if it was just Father's choice, no idea): how to regenerate and how to use their own power each.

Now, If they could ever learn and use alchemy freely... hey, they are intelligent beings, capable of learning on one hand...
On the other hand... Envy, at least, seems to know quite much about alchemy and yet...
I dunno what to think about.

and as for Wrath's power.... I've posted (don't remember where tho') a couple of times that I can't see how is it alchemy-related at all for now... but I have faith in arakawa sensei. smile.gif
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]

Homunculi die when they use up all of their energy, their souls. Do they have souls?

Yes. Soul = Personality, identity, sense of self, etc. They have all that. Therefore they have a soul.

A proof you have in Lingreed, who has exactly the same personality as the old Greed even if his memories were erased.

You could say they have a predominant soul (theirs), and the rest are just mere "battery power". happy.gifU
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]
Can a homunculus be made without a sin or virtue or somesuch to give it identity?

No fuggin' idea.
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]

All of the homunculi were *born* after the collapse of Xerxes. Are they all Xerxian, or were some stones made in between (for Wrath, maybe)

AFAIK, they're all made from the same big stone within Father (if not Father himself), 7 "portions" with Father's sins on it... So yes, them all are from Xerxes.

As far as we know, all the stones made later in Amestris were incomplete ones, made from Ishvalans, Death Row prisoners and -yay- the alchemists themselves later XD
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]

The stones of the Homunculi are imperfect. They can be destroyed. it stands to reason, then, that a perfect homunculus would be impossible to destroy and be much more powerful. is it possible to make a perfect stone/perfect homunculus? Has it ever been done?

I believe they're perfect. Wherever the difference is, I do not know, but I think their Stones are the real thing. Or, as I mentioned before, part of it.

Lust put much emphasys on showing the PS to Roy and Havoc... and she was being all-out honest cuz she was going to kill them anyway, so... that's what makes me
believe those Stones are The Real Thing (or, again, part of it)


QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]365454[/snapback]

Father/Hohenheim
What is there relationship?
Are they the sages?
Where did they get their powers?
Does Hohenheim have any stones?
Why does Father have the Eye in the Doors in his forehead?

If we knew the answer to these, FMA would be over happy.gif
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 07:25 AM) [snapback]365488[/snapback]

Actually, if you look at that frame carefully, you see that Roy rips the stone out of her, her body disintegrates, and Lust forms from the stone. You don't see her legs, and just her torso is forming (near the end of chap. 38)
It makes you wonder about equivalent exchange and that other one. Conservation of energy, was it? that what your'e transmuting has to have the same properties. i'm not sure what the properties of a soul are...

Unlike "Equivalent Exchange", the other basic law of alchemy (you can only transmute water-ish things into water-ish things, etc. whatever it was called) has been utterly ignored when a PS was involved, so.... I guess we can conclude that law is wrong, no? happy.gif

With a PS the process rather goes like this:

Countless human lives are sacrificed -> their souls transformed into the alchemical equivalent of "Potential Energy" which takes the form of the Stone -> Then you can use this energy to transmute it into ANYTHING.

Therefore, equivalent exchange is kept, the other one, no.
QUOTE(MonsterEnvy @ Mar 19 2006, 07:25 AM) [snapback]365488[/snapback]

Not sure about that one. Greed wasn't being regrown, he needed a new body b/c his old one was rebellious. This is why he needed to be put in Ling. i think it was you (though maybe it was Sensenic) who mentioned Gluttony being "recharged". That's probably closest to what it is.

It was me!} \(^o^ )

But it was not Greed's "body" the one who turned rebellious... He chose that on his own...
That's why Father "killed" him, taking away his memories... But kept his soul alive so the Stone could be put somewhere else (that is, Ling) later and have another pawn back.
What asshole Father for some reason doesn't seem to get is that Greed's rebellion was due to his personality, so it's most probable that Lingreed will end up doing the same sooner or later... or at least, so I hope. happy.gif
QUOTE(Jedi28 @ Mar 19 2006, 09:16 AM) [snapback]365509[/snapback]

This is probably a brainless question (on my part) but do we know for sure Pride is male? I think there was a scene that showed a silhoutte that was masculine looking, was there or did I just imagine it?

Ar! I have to check the Raws where ¿he? appears and I keep forgetting. Darnit!

CSakuraS said that Pride once said "Nan desutte?" (literally "What is this/that?", more or less), which is a very feminine expression (according to her, again. I just remember Riza saying it, after reading her reassignment), so...

After reading that post, my hopes for another female hommunculus have been increasing. It'd be nice, as Lust was the only she-hommunculus ( happy.gifU ) so far and she's dead... sad.gif
QUOTE(popogeejo @ Mar 19 2006, 09:44 AM) [snapback]365529[/snapback]

As for Prides gender,didn't Envy say "He's[Pride] taken to showing p at useless times"?

Gotta check the RAW, but I'd say, from memory, that Envy probably didn't specify Pride's gender...
In this case it's the raw what is more important, since the japanese barely use the "he/she" pronouns. More probably Envy said sth like ("that damn Pride" or koitsu/soitsu/aitsu, or "Pride no yatsu" or sth like that, all of them genderless, and quite more usual than "kare" = "he" or "kanojo" = "she").
QUOTE(popogeejo @ Mar 19 2006, 09:44 AM) [snapback]365529[/snapback]

RanFan and Ling can sense soul(ki) because of a Martial arts technique I think.Some chinese arts have the smae ideas IIRC...

Yeah, well, but that doesn't explain how the f*!@ can they sense "life energy"...
This is an old trick many mangas have used, and that's why it is still the only thing that annoys me a little about the Xing characters... that Arakawa would pull out such a cheap and old one on them...
But I'll admit that it has been well used.


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Kirara
post Mar 20 2006, 01:47 PM
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QUOTE
CSakuraS said that Pride once said "Nan desutte?" (literally "What is this/that?", more or less), which is a very feminine expression (according to her, again. I just remember Riza saying it, after reading her reassignment), so...


It would be interesting if Pride turns out to be female. The Silhouette looks male to me but that probably isn't a really good indication. I think most people wouldn't be expecting Pride to be female so that would be a neat surprise (and maybe that is why Arakawa is so secretive about Pride's identity not because it is a character we already know.)
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Redthorn
post Mar 20 2006, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE
Brad's lines could be covred by his uniform and his black vest.


That makes me wonder how he hides those from his wife...or explains them away:

"They're birthmarks, dear."

"Old battle scars, dear. Unusually straight, geometric, battle scars."

With regard to the Sins, my favorite theory (based on nothing but that I think it's cool) is that Father wants to become "perfect" and he originally created the Sins in an attempt to "purge" himself of everything impure as part of his quest for perfection. He may have been as surprised as anyone when they took form and started walking around, talking back, and eventually rebelling ohmy.gif


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MonsterEnvy
post Mar 20 2006, 02:33 PM
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[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 4:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
They look like they're made out of souls. (the souls coming from their stones make up their bodies)
On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?
[/quote]
Not at all. The souls are the "accumulated energy" that is used to create the hommuculi's physical body, which, PS aside (and Envy's case too) is identical to that of a human being (same organs 'n stuff). They even have nerves and feel pain (which can be quite bothersome when your main strategy is to let your enemy discharge his weapon on you and then regenerate, to the despair of the other side XD "The bullets, they do nothing".)
[/quote]
So, they're made out of transmuted souls. So, why, whenever we see the stone in a homunculus, do the souls look like they're simply merging into the healthy bits of the body as well as the damaged bits?
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
All of the homunculi were *born* after the collapse of Xerxes. Are they all Xerxian, or were some stones made in between (for Wrath, maybe)
[/quote]
AFAIK, they're all made from the same big stone within Father (if not Father himself), 7 "portions" with Father's sins on it... So yes, them all are from Xerxes.

As far as we know, all the stones made later in Amestris were incomplete ones, made from Ishvalans, Death Row prisoners and -yay- the alchemists themselves later XD
[/quote]
Question- Is Cornello's stone an Amestrian stone or another stone secreted from Father? That'd help a lot in speculation about Father's nature.
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
The stones of the Homunculi are imperfect. They can be destroyed. it stands to reason, then, that a perfect homunculus would be impossible to destroy and be much more powerful. is it possible to make a perfect stone/perfect homunculus? Has it ever been done?
[/quote]
I believe they're perfect. Wherever the difference is, I do not know, but I think their Stones are the real thing. Or, as I mentioned before, part of it.

Lust put much emphasys on showing the PS to Roy and Havoc... and she was being all-out honest cuz she was going to kill them anyway, so... that's what makes me
believe those Stones are The Real Thing (or, again, part of it)
[/quote]
No. The homunculi's stones are definitely NOT perfect. A perfect stone has infinite amounts of energy, and is indestructible. Remember Cornello in the beginning? His stone was eventually used up, like Lust's, and it disintegrated in the same way. Lust's just had considerably more power in it.
Maybe father is a perfect stone/has one in him? That would explain how he can recharge gluttony again, and secrete stones- they're different bits of his soul/stone.
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
Father/Hohenheim
What is there relationship?
Are they the sages?
Where did they get their powers?
Does Hohenheim have any stones?
Why does Father have the Eye in the Doors in his forehead?
[/quote]
If we knew the answer to these, FMA would be over happy.gif
[/quote]
I'm particularly curious as to whether anyone has an opinion on Hohenheim's stones (or why he doesn't have any)
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
Actually, if you look at that frame carefully, you see that Roy rips the stone out of her, her body disintegrates, and Lust forms from the stone. You don't see her legs, and just her torso is forming (near the end of chap. 38)
It makes you wonder about equivalent exchange and that other one. Conservation of energy, was it? that what your'e transmuting has to have the same properties. i'm not sure what the properties of a soul are...
[/quote]
Unlike "Equivalent Exchange", the other basic law of alchemy (you can only transmute water-ish things into water-ish things, etc. whatever it was called) has been utterly ignored when a PS was involved, so.... I guess we can conclude that law is wrong, no? happy.gif

With a PS the process rather goes like this:

Countless human lives are sacrificed -> their souls transformed into the alchemical equivalent of "Potential Energy" which takes the form of the Stone -> Then you can use this energy to transmute it into ANYTHING.

Therefore, equivalent exchange is kept, the other one, no.
[/quote]
Just a thought.., in conventional science, Einstein's infamous equation E=mc squared means that all matter is energy, and it takes a lot of energy to condense into matter. Not to necessarily apply physics to the FMAverse, but if all matter is energy, and, as Envy says, souls are pure energy, then that wouldn't violate the second law at all. huh.gif
it would also explain why we see so many souls getting used up when Ed opens the doors. (a body, two arms, and a leg was the passage fee to put two people through. Now, they're only putting one through (Envy and Ling aren't being transmuted, they just slip through when Truth isn't looking huh.gif) and it takes a *lot* of the Envy-tumors- a lot more than I thought would be necessary.)
[quote name='Sensenic' post='366134' date='Mar 20 2006, 04:02 AM']
[quote name='MonsterEnvy' post='365454' date='Mar 19 2006, 06:49 AM']
Not sure about that one. Greed wasn't being regrown, he needed a new body b/c his old one was rebellious. This is why he needed to be put in Ling. i think it was you (though maybe it was Sensenic) who mentioned Gluttony being "recharged". That's probably closest to what it is.
[/quote]
It was me!} \(^o^ )

But it was not Greed's "body" the one who turned rebellious... He chose that on his own...
That's why Father "killed" him, taking away his memories... But kept his soul alive so the Stone could be put somewhere else (that is, Ling) later and have another pawn back.
What asshole Father for some reason doesn't seem to get is that Greed's rebellion was due to his personality, so it's most probable that Lingreed will end up doing the same sooner or later... or at least, so I hope. happy.gif
[/quote]
I think that Greed's memories are tied to his body. Remember, we've said that homunculi have souls. Then, they have bodies. We've also been told that what stores the memories is the mind. (it also ties the soul to the body). Since homunculi can have their souls transplanted, they would need to have a new mind to tie themselves the body (possibly the sin?) and the new mind would begin to store new memories.
On another note: Is it just my browser, or does anyone have an idea why my quote tags aren't working?


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Colette
post Mar 21 2006, 08:04 PM
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Probably the former. I don't see anything wrong with your quote tags. huh.gif

@Redthorn- good question. xD


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