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Manga FMA Homunculi!, What are they? How are they created?? Their unique characteristics?
AA battery
post May 8 2005, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Senefen @ May 2 2005, 06:14 AM) *
A nice point to note is according to Aquiuas (the guy who 1st defined the 7 deadly sins)and Dante (the poet not the anime person) is that pride, is the first, greatest and root of all sins. All other sins come from pride, thus doesnt it make sense that greed was "Returned" to him?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins
Also interesting is that the 7 sins have a counter, (equal and opposite if you will biggrin.gif) the 7 virtues. These being humility, meekness, charity, chastity, moderation, zeal and generosity.
Also you could place other characters on the virtues. Though i'm probably reading too deep.

In order of severity
humility - Pride <- In charge, scares Envy, Father?
meekness, - Wrath <- Bradly, envy dont like him smile.gif
charity, - Envy
chastity,- Lust <- bossed around gluttony
moderation, - Gluttony
zeal, - Sloth <- locked in a hole?
generosity, - Greed <-deserted them

Senefen: a very interesting site you got there! biggrin.gif


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Ressurection
post Feb 13 2006, 07:06 PM
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~ Theory On The Creation Of Homunculi *spoilers* ~

Well, I just came up with this earlier..

Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Mans's" alchemicly cloning himself? He failed 6 times each time, bestowed one of his "sins" upon these failed clones. He rid himself of the final sin in Pride. Afterwards, he finally successfully cloned himself forming Hohenheim. Perhaps he had to rid himself of all sins before he could "ascend"..? Just a guess. If anybody has something to add, please do so ^^.
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Nepharski
post Feb 13 2006, 07:12 PM
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~ Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Man (Faher)"'s alchemicly cloning himself? ~

QUOTE (Ressurection @ Feb 13 2006, 05:51 PM) *
Well, I just came up with this earlier..

Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Mans's" alchemicly cloning himself? He failed 6 times each time, bestowed one of his "sins" upon these failed clones. He rid himself of the final sin in Pride. Afterwards, he finally successfully cloned himself forming Hohenheim. Perhaps he had to rid himself of all sins before he could "ascend"..? Just a guess. If anybody has something to add, please do so ^^.

And Lust would be his clone...how?

Sorry, but too many holes.


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Attention Manga Lust fans:
Lust is dead. Finished. Kaput. Joined the Choir Invisible. Roy Mustang incinerated her repeatedly until her Philosopher's Stone dried up and dissolved into nothingness ("Mu" for you Japanese cultural enthusiasts). And she will remain killed off, written out of the plot. Greed was reincarnated because Father saved his Philosopher's Stone and had a guinea pig on hand. Lust is gone. Stop trying to play God with the plot line and bring her back at every possibly junction.
In the event that Hiromu Arakawa can skillfully maneuver around this narrative plot hole, I will eat my words with a pinch of salt.
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Wyrd_Raven
post Feb 13 2006, 08:14 PM
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Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Man's" alchemicly cloning hims elf?

One of those holes being that Pride is one of the first Homunculi created by Father


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Emi-chan
post Feb 14 2006, 02:57 AM
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Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Man's" alchemicly cloning hims elf?

another one of those holes is that hohenheim can't be Pride. the shapes of their heads are very different
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Reika
post Feb 14 2006, 04:25 AM
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Couldn't the Homunculi be the failed attempts of "The Bearded Man's" alchemicly cloning hims elf?

At first I thought they were things of the door that somehow where placed on a body... :s but I don't think that anymore ^^U...


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MonsterEnvy
post Mar 18 2006, 11:04 PM
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Well, we're familiar with the basics of homunculi. However, there's a lot that we don't know that deserves some speculation. Father and Hohenheim discussion, too.
To recap "canon" details:
The homunculi have the Philosopher's stone as their nucleus.
The homunculi are can regenerate by using the energy in the stones to transmute(?) their new bodies/body parts out of (??)
They look like they're made out of souls. (the souls coming from their stones make up their bodies)
On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?
Gluttony is growing from Father. Does this mean that Father's bodily composition is the same as Gluttony's, eg, is made of souls (or the same elements of people)?
Homunculi can transmute(?) their bodies (Lust, her fingers, Envy, his form, Greed, his carbon, Gluttony, his stomach (doors), Pride, (?), Sloth, (?), Wrath, does something, but the way it transmutes is unclear. If anyone can actually explain what the Ultimate Eye does, i'd be enlightened)
The homunculi transmute like Father: No circle, and no clappiness or similar. Unlike father, they can only transmute in one way. Is this by choice, or the onlly way that they can use alchemy? Could they theoretically use circles?
Homunculi die when they use up all of their energy, their souls. Do they have souls? Can a homunculus be made without a sin or virtue or somesuch to give it identity?
All of the homunculi were *born* after the collapse of Xerxes. Are they all Xerxian, or were some stones made in between (for Wrath, maybe)
The stones of the Homunculi are imperfect. They can be destroyed. it stands to reason, then, that a perfect homunculus would be impossible to destroy and be much more powerful. is it possible to make a perfect stone/perfect homunculus? Has it ever been done?
Father/Hohenheim
What is there relationship?
Are they the sages?
Where did they get their powers?
Does Hohenheim have any stones?
Why does Father have the Eye in the Doors in his forehead?

Well, just some questions that I was curious about hearing opinions on!


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Popogeejo
post Mar 18 2006, 11:24 PM
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To add another question;
What are those lines on them?Like the ones on Gluttonys shoulders?

QUOTE
They look like they're made out of souls. (the souls coming from their stones make up their bodies)
On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?


They are made of basic human stuff.The souls are there power source but not vital for suvival(Lust had hers ripped out by Roy but managed to come back to try and kill him)
Their "true" forms come form the power of the stones.They store the extra materials within then unitll they are needed.Smae goes for their powers.

QUOTE
If anyone can actually explain what the Ultimate Eye does, i'd be enlightened


How can I turn down this question? biggrin.gif
The Ultimate Eye as I interpet it can see all the possible out comes via quick calculation(Probability and such.Maybe calculating out comes using the laws of physics to know where items will go,how he will be able to dogde attacks without losing an advantage)How excatly he does it in such a quick time is beyond me.

QUOTE
The homunculi transmute like Father: No circle, and no clappiness or similar. Unlike father, they can only transmute in one way. Is this by choice, or the onlly way that they can use alchemy? Could they theoretically use circles?


I'm not sure if they are tranmsuting or just "normal" bodily manipulation(like chamealons controlling their skin colour or Firebomb beatels* fireing a super heated liquid by eating a catalyst and mixing it with another chemical)
In other words their abilities are equivlent to us wiggling our fingures.

QUOTE
Does Hohenheim have any stones?

this made me giggle.In Wales stones are slang for testies.(sorry for the imaturity)

*not sure on name but it is a real creature.


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Nepharski
post Mar 18 2006, 11:29 PM
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On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?
No. Father gathers around the ingredients for a human being's mind and body (with his allowence, no doubt tongue.gif ), then places a Philosopher's Stone as the "Soul."

Gluttony is growing from Father. Does this mean that Father's bodily composition is the same as Gluttony's, eg, is made of souls (or the same elements of people)?
No idea on that one. I actually don't think that's Guttony coming out of him, just existing inside him. I'm going to assume Greed made similar indentations while inside the Father, but revealing that would have revealed that Greed was truely alive.

Homunculi can transmute(?) their bodies (Lust, her fingers, Envy, his form, Greed, his carbon, Gluttony, his stomach (doors), Pride, (?), Sloth, (?), Wrath, does something, but the way it transmutes is unclear. If anyone can actually explain what the Ultimate Eye does, i'd be enlightened)
I don't know how Wrath transmutes, but if you want to get technical, maybe it's somehow linked with The Truth.

The homunculi transmute like Father: No circle, and no clappiness or similar. Unlike father, they can only transmute in one way. Is this by choice, or the onlly way that they can use alchemy? Could they theoretically use circles?
I think the only way they can use alchemy is in the specific way they are gifted.

Homunculi die when they use up all of their energy, their souls. Do they have souls? Can a homunculus be made without a sin or virtue or somesuch to give it identity?
Who knows? Maybe it has to do with the state of the people used for the stone. For example, let us suppose that Bradley's stone was made of the souls of a fierce warrior nation, thus making him "Wrath." Lather, rinse, repeat.

Homunculi built around the stone have numerous souls making them up, the sum total of which could be considered their soul, but no individual soul. When a Stone is put into a human, the soul of that human and the, let's call it, "Oversoul" of the Stone share the body. This is present in Ling, and so can be speculated to be true for Bradley, albeit Wrath is no doubt a harder sin to overcome that Greed.

All of the homunculi were *born* after the collapse of Xerxes. Are they all Xerxian, or were some stones made in between (for Wrath, maybe)
What? Last time I checked, Envy's Stone was the only one with ties to Xerxes. Course, I could be wrong, but...

The stones of the Homunculi are imperfect. They can be destroyed. it stands to reason, then, that a perfect homunculus would be impossible to destroy and be much more powerful. is it possible to make a perfect stone/perfect homunculus? Has it ever been done?
I'd think not. Pride was the oldest Homunculus, but then it stands to reason he is actually the least "Advanced." Gluttony was the second most recent (#6), and his Stone almost ran out. Unless Bradley has a perfect Stone, Father hasn't created one yet. If Bradley's Stone is perfect, maybe that ties in with his seemingly supernatural ability, no?

Father/Hohenheim
What is there relationship?
Are they the sages?
Where did they get their powers?
Does Hohenheim have any stones?
Why does Father have the Eye in the Doors in his forehead?

I don't know the answers to any of these, but I highly suspect they are the Sages of legend.


--------------------
Attention Manga Lust fans:
Lust is dead. Finished. Kaput. Joined the Choir Invisible. Roy Mustang incinerated her repeatedly until her Philosopher's Stone dried up and dissolved into nothingness ("Mu" for you Japanese cultural enthusiasts). And she will remain killed off, written out of the plot. Greed was reincarnated because Father saved his Philosopher's Stone and had a guinea pig on hand. Lust is gone. Stop trying to play God with the plot line and bring her back at every possibly junction.
In the event that Hiromu Arakawa can skillfully maneuver around this narrative plot hole, I will eat my words with a pinch of salt.
Nepharski - Our first, last, and hopeful not only line of defense against bad Homunculi theories.

My LiveJournal, because I'm a closet conformist
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MonsterEnvy
post Mar 18 2006, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE(popogeejo @ Mar 18 2006,11:09 PM) [snapback]375471[/snapback]

To add another question;
What are those lines on them?Like the ones on Gluttonys shoulders?

i think that it's just a peculiarity of their fashion sense. Envy's true form has no lines (that i saw)
On the other hand, it may have something to do with a transmutation circle, Perhaps this is how they use their powers? (never thought of that)
QUOTE(popogeejo @ Mar 18 2006,11:09 PM) [snapback]375471[/snapback]

QUOTE
They look like they're made out of souls. (the souls coming from their stones make up their bodies)
On the other hand, Greed says they're made out of the same elements as people. Is this contradictory?


They are made of basic human stuff.The souls are there power source but not vital for suvival(Lust had hers ripped out by Roy but managed to come back to try and kill him)

Actually, if you look at that frame carefully, you see that Roy rips the stone out of her, her body disintegrates, and Lust forms from the stone. You don't see her legs, and just her torso is forming (near the end of chap. 38)
It makes you wonder about equivalent exchange and that other one. Conservation of energy, was it? that what your'e transmuting has to have the same properties. i'm not sure what the properties of a soul are...
QUOTE(popogeejo @ Mar 18 2006,11:09 PM) [snapback]375471[/snapback]

QUOTE
If anyone can actually explain what the Ultimate Eye does, i'd be enlightened


How can I turn down this question? biggrin.gif
The Ultimate Eye as I interpet it can see all the possible out comes via quick calculation(Probability and such.Maybe calculating out comes using the laws of physics to know where items will go,how he will be able to dogde attacks without losing an advantage)How excatly he does it in such a quick time is beyond me.

Maybe. how does it use alchemy, or transmutation, is the question.
QUOTE(Nepharski @ Mar 18 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]365474[/snapback]

Gluttony is growing from Father. Does this mean that Father's bodily composition is the same as Gluttony's, eg, is made of souls (or the same elements of people)?
No idea on that one. I actually don't think that's Guttony coming out of him, just existing inside him. I'm going to assume Greed made similar indentations while inside the Father, but revealing that would have revealed that Greed was truely alive.

Not sure about that one. Greed wasn't being regrown, he needed a new body b/c his old one was rebellious. This is why he needed to be put in Ling. i think it was you (though maybe it was Sensenic) who mentioned Gluttony being "recharged". That's probably closest to what it is.
QUOTE(Nepharski @ Mar 18 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]365474[/snapback]

Homunculi die when they use up all of their energy, their souls. Do they have souls? Can a homunculus be made without a sin or virtue or somesuch to give it identity?
Who knows? Maybe it has to do with the state of the people used for the stone. For example, let us suppose that Bradley's stone was made of the souls of a fierce warrior nation, thus making him "Wrath." Lather, rinse, repeat.

Homunculi built around the stone have numerous souls making them up, the sum total of which could be considered their soul, but no individual soul. When a Stone is put into a human, the soul of that human and the, let's call it, "Oversoul" of the Stone share the body. This is present in Ling, and so can be speculated to be true for Bradley, albeit Wrath is no doubt a harder sin to overcome that Greed.

Maaaybe... or maybe it was jsut the wrathful of xerxes? (see below) or maybe Father imprinted his own sins on the homunculi?
QUOTE(Nepharski @ Mar 18 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]365474[/snapback]

All of the homunculi were *born* after the collapse of Xerxes. Are they all Xerxian, or were some stones made in between (for Wrath, maybe)
What? Last time I checked, Envy's Stone was the only one with ties to Xerxes. Course, I could be wrong, but...

According to the "canon" timeline on the ZOMGFTA site, all of the homunculi were made after Xerxes. It seems likely that they would have been enough for more than one stone. If they weren't, more civiliazations probably would have collapsed... and we would have heard about it, I think.

QUOTE(Nepharski @ Mar 18 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]365474[/snapback]

The stones of the Homunculi are imperfect. They can be destroyed. it stands to reason, then, that a perfect homunculus would be impossible to destroy and be much more powerful. is it possible to make a perfect stone/perfect homunculus? Has it ever been done?

I'd think not. Pride was the oldest Homunculus, but then it stands to reason he is actually the least "Advanced." Gluttony was the second most recent (#6), and his Stone almost ran out. Unless Bradley has a perfect Stone, Father hasn't created one yet. If Bradley's Stone is perfect, maybe that ties in with his seemingly supernatural ability, no?
If they were all from Xerxes, then no. Otherwise, probably.
And the "Truth" thing.. perhaps he can open the doors and see (with his eye) the true knowledge about the future and react?


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Nepharski
post Mar 19 2006, 01:29 AM
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Here's a deal. I'll tell you how Bradley's eye works after you tell me how Ran Fan can see the number of souls in people. tongue.gif


--------------------
Attention Manga Lust fans:
Lust is dead. Finished. Kaput. Joined the Choir Invisible. Roy Mustang incinerated her repeatedly until her Philosopher's Stone dried up and dissolved into nothingness ("Mu" for you Japanese cultural enthusiasts). And she will remain killed off, written out of the plot. Greed was reincarnated because Father saved his Philosopher's Stone and had a guinea pig on hand. Lust is gone. Stop trying to play God with the plot line and bring her back at every possibly junction.
In the event that Hiromu Arakawa can skillfully maneuver around this narrative plot hole, I will eat my words with a pinch of salt.
Nepharski - Our first, last, and hopeful not only line of defense against bad Homunculi theories.

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Jedi28
post Mar 19 2006, 01:31 AM
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This is probably a brainless question (on my part) but do we know for sure Pride is male? I think there was a scene that showed a silhoutte that was masculine looking, was there or did I just imagine it?


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MonsterEnvy
post Mar 19 2006, 01:37 AM
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Yes, it was there. Can we really tell the gender of a homunculus anyway?
'He' is the easier pronoun, in any case.
Ranfan can see the number of souls in people... because... because... BECAUSE SHE'S AWESOME. SO THERE. biggrin.gif
But, really, that's something to think about. Maybe it has to do with rentanjutsu and the "cycles of energy" mei mentioned when healing scar? A homunculus with lots of souls would definitely have screwed up cycles.


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Popogeejo
post Mar 19 2006, 01:38 AM
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QUOTE
i think that it's just a peculiarity of their fashion sense. Envy's true form has no lines (that i saw)


The lines are his forehead.It's hard to see but it's there.)Same is true for true Greed.
Here's a pic.You can see the bottom point of the triangel that's also on his head band.


I only just noticed it myself.


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MonsterEnvy
post Mar 19 2006, 01:46 AM
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Oh, you're right! dontcha love arakawa's attention to detail...
It could be related to different aspects of the philosopher's stone... people who seek it are normally driven by a deadly sin, hm? especially greed/avarice, but the rest could work too. So, each homunculus has a power that relates to part of the power of the stone. Then, they each have a portion of the tranmutation circle that coresponds to their powers?
It does look like they could form one transmutation circle.
Father: Everyone, hold hands!
Envy: Ugh, I don't want to touch gluttony, he's icky.tongue.gif
The problem with that, i suppose, is that Lust is dead, and the Fuhrer doesn't have lines (that we can see, and.. hm... did ling in ultimate shield? I think so... maybe the fuhrer can *bring out* his lines. Dno.)


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