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Suicide, What are your thoughts?
Popogeejo
post Dec 17 2006, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE
basically commiting suicide is not good as it not only affects the people of that members family but also sets a week example for the other people in the society.
What about people with no family?

QUOTE
If a person is unable to find the solutions , he should work hard to get them.

They can't find solutions and your genius suggestion is for them to just look harder?
GTFO! That's just so mind numbingly naive it's not even funny.


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Amol
post Dec 17 2006, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Dec 18 2006, 10:23 AM) [snapback]485638[/snapback]
QUOTE
basically commiting suicide is not good as it not only affects the people of that members family but also sets a week example for the other people in the society.
What about people with no family?

QUOTE
If a person is unable to find the solutions , he should work hard to get them.
They can't find solutions and your genius suggestion is for them to just look harder?
GTFO! That's just so mind numbingly naive it's not even funny.


People with no families is not my point, its about affecting the society.

as for the point in looking harder ... what do you suggest ?

Is Suicide a solution ?



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cmChimera
post Dec 17 2006, 10:35 PM
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By my logic everyone who deliberately act in a way that would cost them their lives, knowingly, is committing suicide. Jesus sacrificed himself (allegedly) for the greater good. It's still suicide. And it's not just m logic, it's how it's defined in the dictionary.
Your logic is a pitiful attempt to justify suicide....
QUOTE
Thinking about killing yourself, really thinking about doing it, is probably scarier than choosing to go on living.
Again, if the thought of losing one's life is scarier than living then why would they kill themselves.....You're not making any sense....And the dictionary says nothing like that. You've skewed the definition to conform to your own beliefs.
QUOTE
You're purposely condemning yourself to death, admitting you were beaten and throwing in the towel. It takes allot to know when your beat.
In other words you were too weak to deal with your problems and you are giving up....I'm failing to see how you are putting a positive spin on suicide. In my eyes you are feeding my argument here...
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And, on the subject of it being a cowards way out, I think that that is really disrespectful.
Why would I respect a coward?
QUOTE
I have a friend who seriously considered suicide, and she is probably the bravest, most intelligent person I know. In the end I helped her ork it out, but what about people without friends. Then what. There wouldn't have been a way out for them. It's not a cowards option, it's just a different option.
I'm glad she didn't....But you realize that since she didn't...I couldn't logically call her a coward for killing herself....So nothing I've said so far has applied to your friend...
QUOTE
I wouldn't want anyone close to me to die, but, if they were truely suffering and there was no way out, I would accept their dicision out of respect for them. I know there will be people who disagree with me, but I think that if someone's life is so messed up that they want to take it away, they should at least have a little respect and hopefully be able to rest in peace.
There's always a way out.....Hence why suicide is cowardly.
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asunder
post Dec 17 2006, 10:38 PM
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QUOTE(Amol @ Dec 18 2006, 12:25 AM) [snapback]485646[/snapback]
People with no families is not my point, its about affecting the society.

as for the point in looking harder ... what do you suggest ?

Is Suicide a solution ?

Actually Popo is correct. Your views seem a blend of ignorance and idealism. You're missing the entire human perspective on this. Screw society. Death is a fact of life. As you get older, you'll realize how fragile our very existance is. Our time here really is minute. From the point of view of medically assisted suicides, some of these patients are in far greater pain than you will ever know or could ever conceive. Branding people who would choose medically assisted suicides or suicides in general as "cowards" is either just ignorance at the very best or just plain delusional.

and yes it is a solution.


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Amol
post Dec 17 2006, 10:40 PM
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QUOTE

By my logic everyone who deliberately act in a way that would cost them their lives, knowingly, is committing suicide. Jesus sacrificed himself (allegedly) for the greater good. It's still suicide. And it's not just m logic, it's how it's defined in the dictionary.
QUOTE
Your logic is a pitiful attempt to justify suicide....


Actually i agree to that point Popo made there.
How is it pitiful ? huh.gif
Why dont you just define the term for us, I my self thought the same , so i happen to ask.
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asunder
post Dec 17 2006, 10:46 PM
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i actually like merriam-webster's definition of suicide:

http://merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suicide

CODE
Main Entry: 1sui∑cide
Pronunciation: 'sŁ-&-"sId
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin sui (genitive) of oneself + English -cide; akin to Old English & Old High German sIn his, Latin suus one's own, sed, se without, Sanskrit sva oneself, one's own
1 a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind b : ruin of one's own interests <political suicide> c : APOPTOSIS <cell suicide>


edit: AMOL please stop flooding.


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Popogeejo
post Dec 17 2006, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE
People with no families is not my point, its about affecting the society.
But;
1: Unless Society at large is told the aren't going to care.
2: Even if they are told they a smart enough (I hope) to understand that suicide is down to the individual and not the masses. It's none of their business.

QUOTE
as for the point in looking harder ... what do you suggest ?

They make a decision based on what they know. If it's to fight on them good for them but if it is suicide then it's their choice.

QUOTE
Is Suicide a solution ?
Yes. Suicide is an a perfectly legitimate option especially for the Ill and those without family. Even then people can make their own minds up.
To take from something else I once wrote;
We have Family Planning clinics for unwanted babies so why not something for people who want to die?
You offer them counciling, advice, alternate ideas to suicide and let people get an injection to help them die. there should also be time 3 week wait and the option to always say no

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Your logic is a pitiful attempt to justify suicide...

At least it's logical.

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Again, if the thought of losing one's life is scarier than living then why would they kill themselves
Because sometimes people have to do things that scare them.
QUOTE
.....You're not making any sense....


you're the only one struggling with my argument.
QUOTE
And the dictionary says nothing like that. You've skewed the definition to conform to your own beliefs.
I didn't alter a single word of the dictionary.
QUOTE
1. the intentional taking of one's own life.
2. destruction of one's own interests or prospects: Buying that house was financial suicide.
3. a person who intentionally takes his or her own life.
American Psychological Association (APA):
suicide. (n.d.). Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1). Retrieved December 17, 2006, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/suicide


QUOTE
In other words you were too weak to deal with your problems and you are giving up....I'm failing to see how you are putting a positive spin on suicide. In my eyes you are feeding my argument here...
It's not about positiveness, it takes alot to admit defeat. It's hardly weak.
You mentioned Jesus so I assume your Catholic or Christian or some such. Some would argue that is weak, putting your hope in a being that may not exist. It's not down to them to say what is weak though. Get off your high horse.

QUOTE
Why would I respect a coward?

Other arguments aside a coward is still a person.

There's always a way out.....Hence why suicide is cowardly (I had to put this in color because I used the quote box limit.)
OKay, you're 35, you have a tumour in your brain which is incurable. The doctors can keep you alive but you will be in tremendous pain for the rest of your life and your body will deteriorate untill you are huge burden on everyone.
Show me a way out besides suicide.
Or: no family, a few friends and your paralysed from the neck down. What else are you going to do?

Sometimes there are no fixes, sometime it's only going to get worse. It's a fact of life.


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cmChimera
post Dec 17 2006, 11:03 PM
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Asunder, am I to assume that only that there is only one valid reason for suicide? I mean, you cite only one reason for suicide as the sole basis for your argument.... I just think I should clarify before I say anything.....I mean we're discussing suicide as a whole...You understand that right?
QUOTE
Actually i agree to that point Popo made there.
How is it pitiful ? huh.gif
Suicide is willfully ending one's own life for their own purpose.....For example....You get picked on, so you shoot yourself in the face....Jumping in front of a bullet in an attempt to save someone's life is not....This was said earlier
QUOTE
Yes, it is suicide. And no, that does not include police and soldiers and such because even though they know of the risk they are taking, it does not guarantee death
Jumping into a bullet does not guarantee death, nor does any other act supreme bravery.....So if you are unwilling to accept the my argument, take that one into consideration.
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asunder
post Dec 17 2006, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE(cmChimera @ Dec 18 2006, 01:03 AM) [snapback]485656[/snapback]
Asunder, am I to assume that only that there is only one valid reason for suicide? I mean, you cite only one reason for suicide as the sole basis for your argument.... I just think I should clarify before I say anything.....I mean we're discussing suicide as a whole...You understand that right?

I'm just merely providing one viewpoint of the debate. Look back, and you'll see that you were the one who made the blanket statement.


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Popogeejo
post Dec 17 2006, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE
Jumping into a bullet does not guarantee death
But death is expected. You are knowingly putting yourself in a potentially deadly situation.

QUOTE
Suicide is willfully ending one's own life for their own purpose.

So Jesus did commit Suicide?

QUOTE
So if you are unwilling to accept the my argument, take that one into consideration.

What if someone does such an heroic act hoping to be considered a hero r so his/her family will get the life insurance/whatever it is spouses of dead troops get? Doesn't that meet the criteria you set for suicide?


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cmChimera
post Dec 17 2006, 11:23 PM
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Because sometimes people have to do things that scare them.
Like live?
QUOTE
I didn't alter a single word of the dictionary.
Contextually you did....If someone jumps into the bullet that someone else shot, then the person who shot the gun took that person's life....It's not a hard concept.
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It's not about positiveness, it takes alot to admit defeat. It's hardly weak.
To admit defeat prematurely is weak....which is what suicide is doing. Giving up. It' simply being afraid to confront the future or the present.
QUOTE
Some would argue that is weak, putting your hope in a being that may not exist.
Then they would be uneducated. The Christian religion is based on the individual being a strong person, fighting temptation, and being rewarded.....If anything the Christian religion encourages personal strength.....As do most religions.....
QUOTE
Other arguments aside a coward is still a person.
And?
QUOTE
OKay, you're 35, you have a tumour in your brain which is incurable. The doctors can keep you alive but you will be in tremendous pain for the rest of your life and your body will deteriorate untill you are huge burden on everyone.
Show me a way out besides suicide.
The situation is not realistic....If this situation really existed this person would either have to remain in the hospital, or would have medication to specifically deal with the pain....Doctors don't release patients into a world that they cannot handle. So in the more realistic version, that person should make the best of his life.
QUOTE
Or: no family, a few friends and your paralysed from the neck down. What else are you going to do?
How did I get to the hospital?

QUOTE
But death is expected. You are knowingly putting yourself in a potentially deadly situation.
Life is a potentially deadly situation....By your logic, motherhood is a euphemism for homicide.
QUOTE
So Jesus did commit Suicide?
Jesus died for the sake of the human race.
QUOTE
What if someone does such an heroic act hoping to be considered a hero r so his/her family will get the life insurance/whatever it is spouses of dead troops get? Doesn't that meet the criteria you set for suicide?
That act would no longer be heroic now would it?
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asunder
post Dec 17 2006, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE(cmChimera @ Dec 18 2006, 01:18 AM) [snapback]485664[/snapback]
The situation is not realistic....If this situation really existed this person would either have to remain in the hospital, or would have medication to specifically deal with the pain....Doctors don't release patients into a world that they cannot handle. So in the more realistic version, that person should make the best of his life

lol this is a reminder for me to come back tomorrow morning and refute what you just said.


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Popogeejo
post Dec 17 2006, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE
Like live?
Or die.

QUOTE
Contextually you did.

How did I accomplish that?

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.If someone jumps into the bullet that someone else shot, then the person who shot the gun took that person's life....It's not a hard concept
Suicide and murder are not mutually exclusive.

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Then they would be uneducated. The Christian religion is based on the individual being a strong person, fighting temptation, and being rewarded

It also says I can sell my daughter into slavery and that I can't where unnatural fibers. Religion is as much of an escape as Suicide but one doesn't cost your soul for inner peace.

QUOTE
And?
People deserve one thing only in life and that's respect. you can disagree with them and argue with them but you should respect them.

QUOTE
The situation is not realistic.

Wanna bet?
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.If this situation really existed this person would either have to remain in the hospital, or would have medication to specifically deal with the pain.
Medication doesn't always work. Ask any good doctor and they will tell you that.

QUOTE
.Doctors don't release patients into a world that they cannot handle.

I never said the patient would be released...

QUOTE
So in the more realistic version, that person should make the best of his life.
It appears you are the one changing things to suit their arguments. I described a perfectly plausible scenario.

QUOTE
How did I get to the hospital?

What does that have to do with anything?


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cmChimera
post Dec 18 2006, 12:22 AM
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Or die.
If they are both equally scary, what makes suicide a better option....In an attempt to mimic me, you're destroying your own argument.
QUOTE
How did I accomplish that?
You took words out of context....
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Suicide and murder are not mutually exclusive.
Suicide is a term for a self inflicted homicide.....One person cannot commit suicide onto another just as one cannot commit homicide to himself.....
QUOTE
It also says I can sell my daughter into slavery and that I can't where unnatural fibers. Religion is as much of an escape as Suicide but one doesn't cost your soul for inner peace.
We aren't debating the plausibility of religion. You made the blind assumption that I was religious, and then stated that religious people, instead of believing in themselves, put faith into another....I simply showed that to be wrong.......But as a note, religion could only be an escape if you really believed it to be untrue but followed it anyway....Otherwise, it's simply what they think is right.....
QUOTE
People deserve one thing only in life and that's respect.
A person that commits suicide is dead....
QUOTE
Wanna bet?
Is this your argument?
QUOTE
Medication doesn't always work. Ask any good doctor and they will tell you that.
Painkillers ineffective to the point where they are completely unnoticeable?
QUOTE
I never said the patient would be released...
Oh you didn't?
QUOTE
and your body will deteriorate untill you are huge burden on everyone.
Who exactly is he a burden on then?
QUOTE
What does that have to do with anything?
You said I had no family and no friends and I'm paralyzed from the neck down......How exactly did I get to the hospital then? [Someonehad to bring me there.
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quiddityofquid
post Dec 18 2006, 10:48 AM
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QUOTE(cmChimera @ Dec 18 2006, 02:22 AM) [snapback]485690[/snapback]
QUOTE
Medication doesn't always work. Ask any good doctor and they will tell you that.
Painkillers ineffective to the point where they are completely unnoticeable?
QUOTE
and your body will deteriorate untill you are huge burden on everyone.
Who exactly is he a burden on then?


Medication does not always work; it's not just painkillers. You can be having many medical problems that cause your life to be living hell without actually being in pain. Take depression for example; only some of the medications do any good for anyone, and many people can't benefit from them at all, and they have unhelpful side effects.

If your health is deteriorating and you can't support yourself, if you live your life miserably in a hospital, yes you are a burden to people, especially your family. They have to pay for you to live even if you might not want to and find living painful. It's also emotionally painful for family to see a relative dying and in pain when there's absolutely nothing they can do.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Wanna bet?
Is this your argument?
QUOTE
I never said the patient would be released...
Oh you didn't?

QUOTE
QUOTE
What does that have to do with anything?
You said I had no family and no friends and I'm paralyzed from the neck down......How exactly did I get to the hospital then? [Someonehad to bring me there.


Ok, here you're just grasping at straws, doing nothing to further your arguement, and overall just being stupid, stubborn, and making yourself look even more like an obnoxious idiot. Please just stop doing that. It doesn't matter who brought the person to the hospital, that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the arguement. Again, just stop doing it. It's practically painful to see.
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