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The Price Of Fma Dvds., Is it really worth it?
Carnal Malefacto...
post Oct 27 2005, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE(adamclark @ Oct 27 2005, 04:47 AM) [snapback]305076[/snapback]
also, fansubs are very poor translation, plus it puts you at the mercy of the translators. you wouldn't have an episode if some person out there translated it.

Do you speak Japanese? If not, how do you know this?


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Oct 27 2005, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE(TheVileOne @ Oct 27 2005, 04:56 AM) [snapback]305081[/snapback]

I'm not sure I know what you are talking about. Could you give some examples?

And you do know for their shows, Fullmetal Alchemist in particular they have to get approval of the English voice actors from the Japanese producers? Just saying, they have culpability for this as well. So you shouldn't just blame Funimation.

How else would you explain casting Colleen Clinkenbeard as Winry? Her voice 'talents' could not be more inappropriate for that role. Same goes for Vic Mignona: decent actor, but a terrible Ed. He just doesn't have that mean streak in his voice that Paku Romi did... and why the hell does he sound exactly the same at age 16 as he did at age 10? They could not have botched that any more.
And while I appreciate the fact that rather than finding some actress who could do a 10-year-old boy's voice for Al, they went and got an actual 12-year-old, but let's face facts here, Aaron Dismuke just isn't that good at what he does. He sounds like he's READING all the time, rather than ACTING. With the job he does, it's easy to see why some would make the mistake of believing that Al is a robot.

And having the Japanese creative body approve of your choices of VAs before making the dub is a red herring. I don't know if you've noticed this, but most Japanese people have no sense of how English conversation is supposed to flow. They speak a language with completely different grammatical rules and idioms. It's like asking a chef who specializes in Japanese food for help making a pizza.

QUOTE

I'm not going to deny this, because I'm not a fan of their DBZ dubs. But most recently I think they've made major improvements and are doing a great job with shows like Samurai 7, FMA, Fruits Basket, and Blue Gender. Blue Gender itself which pretty much seemed like an exact translation of the Japanese and was more than competent. Though I don't think the series itself is all that great, just a great English dub.

I haven't seen S7 or Fruits Basket, but if BG was a direct translation of the Japanese script, that doesn't really help. Like I said, Japanese and English are so vastly different that you have to discard the notion that simply doing a direct translation of the original script will be enough to make a satisfactory dub. It won't. Purists will disagree with me on this, but the reason most dubs sound so stiff and forced is because the ADR editors do a lousy job of infusing them with the idiosyncrasies of English speech. They have a terrible sense of how to properly paraphrase dialogue in Japanese so it sounds good in English. That's really my #1 problem with the FMA dub, and dubs in general. As I watch it, I can't stop thinking to myself, 'this isn't how people actually talk.' It's bad writing, and the bad acting does nothing to mitigate it.
QUOTE

Pioneer doesn't dub anything. And they are Geneon now. Bandai does NOT produce or create the English dubs. They hire other companies that do that for them. These companies are companies such as Animaze, ZRO Limit, and the Ocean Group. These are the guys that translate, produce, record the English dubs for anime that companies that Bandai or Geneon license.

Funimation does not cast poorly either. They use a lot of the same EXCEPTIONAL VA talent that ADV does. This is true of Fullmetal Alchemist especially. A great deal of the Fullmetal Alchemist cast are ADV regulars, especially for lead and significant characters.

I've seen plenty of ADV dubs, and I'd never heard of any of the VAs for Ed, Al, Winry, Mustang, Hughes or most of the other key characters... primarily because most of them had never BEEN in any ADV dubs [which is wrong, because ADV also uses 3rd party dubbing, namely Industrial Smoke & Mirrors.] And it doesn't matter to me if Pioneer is Geneon now. Most of the anime they've licensed have had dubs that are far superior to anything FUNi has ever done. Same goes for the others I've mentioned. Right now the gold standard in dub production, from what I've seen, is shared by Wolf's Rain, and the Xenosaga games. FMA falls far, far short of that.


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Tombow
post Oct 27 2005, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(adamclark @ Oct 27 2005, 03:47 AM) [snapback]305076[/snapback]

...i think it's foolish to slam the dubbed versions. i've seen a lot of crappy american dubbed anime, but fma is one of the best i've seen. it was that version that got me hooked on fma. i know i wouldn't have watched it if it was only in japanese. also, fansubs are very poor translation, plus it puts you at the mercy of the translators. you wouldn't have an episode if some person out there translated it.

I agree that dubbed Fma anime on TV is doing a great service of introducing Fma to new fans.
AND, I'm also greatful for those who do subbing. There are some who, in my opinion, do very good sub works, and many of us are indebted to their dedicated efforts, and as long as they are willing to put out subs, I'll enjoy them.

And, back to the DVD prices, it's all relative, IMO. I know in some city that's just a lunch money ($8.50 for one bagle, and another $8.50 for a cup of soup, in a PAPER CUP!! plus few more stuff, and you could have gotton the DVD instead.) So, it's all depending on individual values, I think. Personally, I don't mind buying DVD for a good series, so that it will stay with me for a long time. happy.gif


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TheVileOne
post Oct 27 2005, 03:27 PM
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QUOTE(What, no bacon? @ Oct 27 2005, 07:02 PM) [snapback]305149[/snapback]

How else would you explain casting Colleen Clinkenbeard as Winry? Her voice 'talents' could not be more inappropriate for that role. Same goes for Vic Mignona: decent actor, but a terrible Ed. He just doesn't have that mean streak in his voice that Paku Romi did... and why the hell does he sound exactly the same at age 16 as he did at age 10? They could not have botched that any more.


You don't explain the casting of Colleen Clinkenbeard as Winry. You know why? SHE DOES NOT PLAY WINRY! Clinkenbeard who is one of the English ADR directors for Fullmetal Alchemist is the voice of Riza Hawkeye and Rose. WINRY's English voice is CAITLIN GLASS. Caitlin Glass and Colleen Clinkenbeard are two different people, NOT aliases.

I think Mignogna's voice as Ed is great, and I also think it did sound differently when he played the character at younger ages. The change was subtle but it was there.

QUOTE

And while I appreciate the fact that rather than finding some actress who could do a 10-year-old boy's voice for Al, they went and got an actual 12-year-old, but let's face facts here, Aaron Dismuke just isn't that good at what he does. He sounds like he's READING all the time, rather than ACTING. With the job he does, it's easy to see why some would make the mistake of believing that Al is a robot.


I disagree. Al's always an ultra-polite, rather vanilla, and a bit stiff of a personality. And he seems to capture the emotional moments beautifully like in episode 3.

QUOTE

And having the Japanese creative body approve of your choices of VAs before making the dub is a red herring. I don't know if you've noticed this, but most Japanese people have no sense of how English conversation is supposed to flow. They speak a language with completely different grammatical rules and idioms. It's like asking a chef who specializes in Japanese food for help making a pizza.


Does it not go both ways then? What makes you so sure the Japanese voices flow better? Can you speak it fluently?

Also, how do you know none of the people that give approval to the voices do not know English? How do you know that even though they can't speak it, they can't recognize an interesting sounding or engaging voice like American fans who like the Japanese voices obviously do?

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I haven't seen S7 or Fruits Basket, but if BG was a direct translation of the Japanese script, that doesn't really help. Like I said, Japanese and English are so vastly different that you have to discard the notion that simply doing a direct translation of the original script will be enough to make a satisfactory dub. It won't. Purists will disagree with me on this, but the reason most dubs sound so stiff and forced is because the ADR editors do a lousy job of infusing them with the idiosyncrasies of English speech. They have a terrible sense of how to properly paraphrase dialogue in Japanese so it sounds good in English. That's really my #1 problem with the FMA dub, and dubs in general. As I watch it, I can't stop thinking to myself, 'this isn't how people actually talk.' It's bad writing, and the bad acting does nothing to mitigate it.


Fruits Basket and Blue Gender were not stiffed or forced at all. And once again, you haven't seen them so you are generalizing based on a marginal amount of work.

QUOTE

I've seen plenty of ADV dubs, and I'd never heard of any of the VAs for Ed, Al, Winry, Mustang, Hughes or most of the other key characters... primarily because most of them had never BEEN in any ADV dubs [which is wrong, because ADV also uses 3rd party dubbing, namely Industrial Smoke & Mirrors.] And it doesn't matter to me if Pioneer is Geneon now. Most of the anime they've licensed have had dubs that are far superior to anything FUNi has ever done. Same goes for the others I've mentioned. Right now the gold standard in dub production, from what I've seen, is shared by Wolf's Rain, and the Xenosaga games. FMA falls far, far short of that.


Ok now you are pissing me off What, no bacon. Vic Mignogna has done a TON of ADV dubs. These include the following: Full Metal Panic, Full Metal Panic Fumoffu, Excel Saga, Gravion, EVANGELION, Rahxephon, Goemon: Legend Of The Mystical Ninja, Peacemaker Kurogane, Saint Seiya, Saiyuki, Wandaba Style. The majority of his credits are FREAKING ADV DUBS! Do you have any more BS?

Luci Christian? The voice of Wrath and Psiren, she is yet another ADV regular. Don't believe me? Look at this link: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...le.php?id=12493

Monica Rial as Lyra (yes THAT Lyra): http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...ple.php?id=2074

Chris Patton as Greed: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...ple.php?id=6336

Christine Auten as Izumi: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...ple.php?id=2491

Tiffany Grant as Marta: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encycloped...ople.php?id=902

FMA is only Aaron Dismuke's second VA job for Funimation. Other than that, FMA has been using a TON of crossover talent with ADV because everyone wants to be a part of this show. And I think that the main character is played by an ADV regular goes against your point pretty strongly.


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Oct 27 2005, 03:48 PM
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a) I got the names of Clinkenbeard and Glass mixed up. Sorry about that. But there's no reason to give me the third degree about it, since either way, the voice is completely inappropriate for the character.

cool.gif There is NO CHANGE between Ed's voice at age 10 and at age 16. NONE. You might think you hear it because you want to, but it's not there. Don't bother trying to convince me otherwise.

c) Aaron Dismuke is not a good actor. Don't bother trying to convince me otherwise in that regard, either. His reading is stiff, he always sounds depressed/on the verge of crying, and his intonation is crap. He's young, so he can improve, but by then it'll be too late to salvage the job he did with Al's voice.

d) I can claim that the Japanese voices flow better because I'm familiar enough with the language to know this to be true.
Have you ever tried to converse with a Japanese person who learned English past a certain age? No matter how skilled they are in the language, there are certain aspects of casual English conversation that they simply can't hack, because they're too used to hearing and speaking in a certain way. That's why the judgment of the ADR director is more important than anything in making sure that the best and most appropriate available talent is used for a dub. And it's clear to me that whoever did the casting for FMA failed in this respect.

e) I did see at least a portion of Blue Gender [lost interest midway through, because it was a boring series], but the dub didn't really impress me. It wasn't as bad as FMA, but it wasn't anything to write home about. Of course, I never saw the Japanese version, so I can't really comment on the quality of casting, but the acting was average.
I have no interest in seeing FB or S7, so you've got me by the balls on that one.

e) And I'm well aware that at least SOME of FUNi's VAs overlap with ADV's, but MOST of the voices of the major characters haven't worked for ISM in any major capacity. Not that this is an especially important point, because whatever their credentials, the VAs that have worked on the FMA dub have combined their talents to produce a mediocre-at-best product.


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Shizuka85
post Oct 27 2005, 03:59 PM
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QUOTE(Odysseus @ Oct 27 2005, 03:11 AM) [snapback]305053[/snapback]

Yeah I've been trying to find a good place to buy the Japanese DVD's..... So far I can only find a retailer at toysnjoys.com and I'm a bit untrusting on the ones on eBay. Anyone know a good place to import the DVD's?

CD Japan is a really good place to buy import CDs and DVDs.
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TheVileOne
post Oct 27 2005, 04:10 PM
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Even though the majority of the voice actor for FMA's MAIN CHARACTER is mainly an ADV guy.

I just gave you a list of ADV people that do play major characters.

Ed's voice did change. He used a higher pitch when Ed was younger.

The voice casting. The ADR directors do pick who the VA's are and they cast them well. Its just a matter of getting them approved by the Japanese producers. And once again, if Americans can recognize and come to enjoy the Japanese voices of characters despite not understanding the language, why can it not go the same way for Japanese? Yoko Kanno herself said, "Our Spike (Koichi Yamadera), good. Your Spike (Steven Jay Blum), sexy."

I'm not seeing this poor casting you are talking about. I think everyone they've picked so far has done a bang-up job and brought their A-game. Christopher Sabat's Armstrong sounds exactly nearly the same as the Japanese VA, just in English. Totally appropriate to me.

I think Caitlin Glass's Winry is adorable.


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Oct 27 2005, 04:12 PM
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You're either delusional, or on CN's payroll.


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TheVileOne
post Oct 27 2005, 08:52 PM
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You don't have proof for either tongue.gif .


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I have had victory and defeat, and defeat in victory.
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This is who I am and who I will always be…I am Chris Benoit!"
- "The Crippler" Chris Benoit
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Carnal Malefacto...
post Oct 27 2005, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE(TheVileOne @ Oct 27 2005, 11:52 PM) [snapback]305433[/snapback]

You don't have proof for either tongue.gif .

I don't, but I have reason to suspect that at least one is true, since you go so far out of your way to defend the dub, making claims about its quality which fly in the face of empirical and easily observable evidence.


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Odysseus
post Oct 28 2005, 10:59 AM
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I get the strangest feeling this topic has become little more than a war of attrition. Maybe it's just me.

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CD Japan is a really good place to buy import CDs and DVDs.


Thanks!


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Ladymercury
post Oct 28 2005, 11:05 AM
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A boxset that was once 120 is now 70.
A DVD that was once 29.99 is now 19.99

Its anime heaven.

That was returning to the original topic, but since the topic has switched gears:

I have no problems with the English dub. Seriously, I have no problems. I feel that the Ed for the English dub is better than the Japanese Dub... as well as for the English Al. Only problem I have with the English dub is the VA for Envy. To me, it just... doesn't... flow....

Sometimes these Sub/Dub wars grate on me. I mean, that's why anime is avalible on DVD only now. So that you guys can press that little audio button on your remote and switch it from English 5.0 to Japanese 2.0. All this moaning and groaning isn't going to change the dub or make it better.

All I hear is the hate on the Ft. Worth/Houston VA team and I'm like, get over it. Its not as bad as it was 6 years ago when FUNimation used their own local VAs for the new season of DBZ or how ADV recycled the same VAs for about all their animes between the years of like 1993 - 2000.

I besides, meeting these VAs at cons makes me look at them beyond the personality they produce in the booth. God, Chris Sabat is hilarious.

I mean, anyone who can do Mama Said Knock You Out as Vegeta has won my attention and sole alligance. XD

Anyway, yeah. tongue.gif


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post Oct 28 2005, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE(Odysseus @ Oct 28 2005, 10:59 AM) [snapback]305580[/snapback]

I get the strangest feeling this topic has become little more than a war of attrition. Maybe it's just me.





No....no....it's not just you. Why can't we all just...get along??


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greenperky
post Oct 28 2005, 06:57 PM
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Scars is right cause I have seen anime dvds for $30 and only have 2 30-minute episodes.


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TheVileOne
post Oct 29 2005, 12:14 AM
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I think 4 episodes for $19.99 is a pretty good deal seeing as to how anime can be priced at Best Buy or elsewhere. I'm talking $24.99 and $29.99 for even less than 4 episodes. I think we got it pretty good this way.

I also believe that What, No bacon is ridiculously over-generalizing about Funimation and their VA's. And I think that's a little unfair.


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"Struggle is optional. Pain is inevitable."

"This is my life. I have battled and lost, struggled and won.
I have had victory and defeat, and defeat in victory.
I will never be overmatched or unprepared.
This is who I am and who I will always be…I am Chris Benoit!"
- "The Crippler" Chris Benoit
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