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Abortion, I'm serious...
Are you for or against abortion?
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Disasterpiece
post Mar 17 2010, 07:26 PM
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^ The unborn child is probably the most innocent victim of all.


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Le Monkey
post Mar 18 2010, 07:37 AM
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QUOTE (Disasterpiece @ Mar 18 2010, 02:26 AM) *
^ The unborn child is probably the most innocent victim of all.


Its not actually a child for a feew months anyway, its still a clump of cells


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Disasterpiece
post Mar 18 2010, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (Le Monkey @ Mar 18 2010, 08:37 AM) *
QUOTE (Disasterpiece @ Mar 18 2010, 02:26 AM) *
^ The unborn child is probably the most innocent victim of all.


Its not actually a child for a feew months anyway, its still a clump of cells


It's not actually a lump of cells, it is a child and it is life. Science calls conception the start of life.

Ergo, it is alive. And since abortion terminates life, it is murder.


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Popogeejo
post Mar 18 2010, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE
Ergo, it is alive. And since abortion terminates life, it is murder.

So what? Who cares?
The Baby isn't aware, it's barely even human for a good few months. The mother mean while is fully human and fully entitled to decide what goes on with her body. If she doesn't want the baby then who are you to force her to carry it?


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Broken Chouchou
post Mar 18 2010, 01:59 PM
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Depends on the situation. There have been cases where mothers have committed suicide because they are carrying the baby of their assaulter. There was one case in some country where abortion is strictly forbidden by law, might have been Chile, where a mom killed herself and her child which she gave birth to after having been raped, because she was so traumatized and couldn't handle having a child like that.

Here two lives where lost, instead of one incomplete.

I don't think a foetus - or that clump of cells - is life immediatly from the moment of conception. I think it's still just potential of life. As Popogeejo said, the baby won't even have a conciousness, not until several months in.

But these are extreme situations. I don't think anyone could argue against abortion for a 12-year old girl who gets brutally gangbanged and rendered pregnant.

But if people have casual sex, and just aren't careful, then I don't really think abortion is okay. At least not when you're adult, and have full responsibility for your own life and actions.


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Disasterpiece
post Mar 18 2010, 02:29 PM
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QUOTE (Popogeejo @ Mar 18 2010, 02:38 PM) *
QUOTE
Ergo, it is alive. And since abortion terminates life, it is murder.

So what? Who cares?
The Baby isn't aware, it's barely even human for a good few months. The mother mean while is fully human and fully entitled to decide what goes on with her body. If she doesn't want the baby then who are you to force her to carry it?




Again. Science has proven that life begins post-conception, in this case, HUMAN life.

QUOTE
The mother mean while is fully human and fully entitled to decide what goes on with her body.


Wrong. Science has also proven, yet again, that a baby's DNA is seperate from the mother's DNA, thus making it a seperate person.

Unless you can disprove that, which is an impossibility...

QUOTE
who are you to force her to carry it?


Who are we to decide if pregnant women are allowed to smoke, drink, or ride on roller coasters and thrill rides? According to your logic, the mother can decide to do whatever she wants with it, even if it risks the death or deformity of the unborn child, no?

Anyway, have you watched Silent Scream? Changed my perspective on abortion.


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Katya Martin
post Mar 18 2010, 04:39 PM
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It seems to me that a major part of the argument has to do with what counts as human and separate from a woman's body. It's generally agreed that killing babies is as wrong as killing older humans; the major difference between the pro-life and pro-choice sides is whether a baby is a baby when they're born or when they're a fetus or an embryo or just a zygote. Some believe that from the moment of fertilization, that zygote is a baby with a soul and the same rights to life and dignity as any other human; some argue that we can't count it as human until some later point. Both sides eventually drag science into it and still can't agree on anything. If we're going to keep getting into this side of the argument, relevant evidence should be provided.

Another major angle that people have been looking at is the woman's right to control her body. "Why should she have to carry the child to term?" a lot of people ask.
Regardless of the circumstances of the child's conception, we should not be looking at this as a matter of convenience. People keep bringing up rape and incest, and those are serious concerns, but they're only about 1% of cases! (citation) Health concerns are another issue, but abortions due to health concerns don't make up a large percentage either. More cases are because a lack of socioeconomic support that leads women to feel that they don't have a choice. A number of cases are because the father puts pressure on the woman to not have the child-- that hardly speaks to woman's rights!

But the most common reason for abortion? "I just don't want a kid now." So just because a woman doesn't want to deal with the consequences for her actions, she shouldn't have to? I can't accept that.


As an aside, I find it interesting that (in the US at least) a larger percentage of men support abortion than the percentage of women who support it, (poll) and that the feminist movement in general was opposed to abortion, and branches of it still are today.



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Popogeejo
post Mar 18 2010, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE
Again. Science has proven that life begins post-conception, in this case, HUMAN life.

I again say so what? Science doesn't say human life is sacred. Science doesn't say the baby has any say in the matter. Science simply says what is what and leaves us, the individual to decide what to do.

QUOTE
Wrong. Science has also proven, yet again, that a baby's DNA is seperate from the mother's DNA, thus making it a seperate person.

I never said that the two were not seperate though I assume this is your round about way of saying "Who are we to decide what goes on with the babies body" right? My answer would be the baby doesn't have a body. It barely has a form and not even aware. The mother however is and making her carry a baby she doesn't is unfair. Why bring a baby into the world that doesn't want? Aborting it, while possibly sad, would stop it suffering before it's even aware it exists.
Odds are you'll say "Let the mother carry it, give birth and put it up for adoption" but that's silly. Adoption agencies are already having trouble with all the kids in the system as it is so throwing more into that system just makes matters worse for every single person in that system.

QUOTE
Who are we to decide if pregnant women are allowed to smoke, drink, or ride on roller coasters and thrill rides? According to your logic, the mother can decide to do whatever she wants with it, even if it risks the death or deformity of the unborn child, no?

There's nothing stopping an expectant mother from smoking or drinking anyway so that's moot. If they wanted a healthy baby then I'd advise against it but I have no legal precedent to stop them.
For the rollercoaster thing, you stop pregnant women getting onto those because they risk increased harm to themselves.
Letting women decide to have medical procedure doesn't compare.

QUOTE
Anyway, have you watched Silent Scream? Changed my perspective on abortion.

I try and avoid propaganda films, especially outdated ones.


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Le Monkey
post Mar 18 2010, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (Popogeejo @ Mar 18 2010, 11:49 PM) *
QUOTE
Anyway, have you watched Silent Scream? Changed my perspective on abortion.

I try and avoid propaganda films, especially outdated ones.



I missed you Popo ^-^

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Disasterpiece
post Mar 18 2010, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE
I again say so what? Science doesn't say human life is sacred.


Do you believe it is sacred?

QUOTE
I never said that the two were not seperate though I assume this is your round about way of saying "Who are we to decide what goes on with the babies body" right? My answer would be the baby doesn't have a body.


You can't deny it has it's own DNA. Even if it's as you believe, a lump of cells, they are their own collective DNA. Two seperate beings. There's no contest.

QUOTE
The mother however is and making her carry a baby she doesn't is unfair.


The fact that it is more convinent for her to get out of a stupid choice she made because she was too irresponsible to control her casual sex drive or to have her partner wear protection, because that is sooo unfair for the mother. If she didn't act irresponsibly in the first place and was very conscious of the consequences she wouldn't have to have an abortion.


QUOTE
Odds are you'll say "Let the mother carry it, give birth and put it up for adoption" but that's silly. Adoption agencies are already having trouble with all the kids in the system as it is so throwing more into that system just makes matters worse for every single person in that system.


That's a falsehood. Agencies are not having trouble, it's the people who are looking to adopt (background checks but that's not the issue here). There are a multitude of couples who, (and two I know personally through my Church) who have successfully adopted despite the rumors of how hellish the process may be.

QUOTE
I try and avoid propaganda films, especially outdated ones.


Excuses are not an acceptable mask for blissful ignorance. If it's so outdated, why not disprove it right here right now? I'll let you spit in my mouth if you can disprove that film after you watch it.

I don't understand how anyone can feel comfortable about the procedure at all, let alone swallowing those myths of "the mother's life or the baby's life hangs in the balance, one or the other must live!" that happen on House*.

* [Mothers can die when in labor, but that is due to infection, blood loss, etc., nothing involving the infant.]


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Popogeejo
post Mar 18 2010, 09:12 PM
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QUOTE
The fact that it is more convinent for her to get out of a stupid choice she made because she was too irresponsible to control her casual sex drive or to have her partner wear protection, because that is sooo unfair for the mother. If she didn't act irresponsibly in the first place and was very conscious of the consequences she wouldn't have to have an abortion.

Condoms never break. Rape never happens. Nobody ever makes mistakes.
This is the problem with pro-lifers. You pretend that nothing bad happens and the only way a woman could get pregnant is by her own stupidity. Accidents happen, rape happens. Amazingly it is possible to get knocked up without intending to and with reasonable, realistic precautions taken. Sure, they are those who sleep about and end up with the inevitable but you can't paint all women with the same brush.

QUOTE
There are a multitude of couples who, (and two I know personally through my Church) who have successfully adopted despite the rumors of how hellish the process may be.

And there is a horde of children who are still waiting to be adopted and odds are will never get adopted. We do not live in a perfect world. Not every child gets adopted and the system, while trying it's best, doesn't do the kids justice. Why do you want to put more kids into an over worked system?

QUOTE
Excuses are not an acceptable mask for blissful ignorance. If it's so outdated, why not disprove it right here right now? I'll let you spit in my mouth if you can disprove that film after you watch it.

Propaganda is a legitimate source to base your argument on. It's emotive bull.... funded and made by and pro-lifer.
The whole film is patently biased.
"Footage shows the foetus trying to escape"
No. No it doesn't. It shows a foetus twitching and then the movie just makes assumptions.
If I were to cite a pro-choice documentary called "Babies love dying" you'd be calling it out for the clear bias it is.
Also, the methods used in that movie were archaic even for the 80's. It's like a film about modern criminal execution where the execution method is burning at the stake.
For further reading here is this: http://my.opera.com/JoanRC/blog/2010/01/02...propaganda-film

Let's cut to the jib. Moral or not abortion happens. There will always be women who want to get rid of their baby, whether it be legal or not. Here's a movie for you: When Abortion Was Illegal: Untold Stories
Now, would you rather women seeking safe, professionally done procedures that assure the best for mother and termanie or do you want women seeking dangerous back alley abortions where they could really mess up?
Do you want the may to suffer, or the few?


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Disasterpiece
post Mar 19 2010, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE
Condoms never break. Rape never happens. Nobody ever makes mistakes.
This is the problem with pro-lifers. You pretend that nothing bad happens and the only way a woman could get pregnant is by her own stupidity. Accidents happen, rape happens. Amazingly it is possible to get knocked up without intending to and with reasonable, realistic precautions taken. Sure, they are those who sleep about and end up with the inevitable but you can't paint all women with the same brush.


Are you suggesting responsibility and accountability be stricken from ANY pregnancy? Do you know how reckless that is? Those two factors are important in the real world. If I wanted to have sex, I would have had my partner wear a condom and I would take the morning after pill as a precaution. Don't tell me stupidity (I wouldn't call it stupidity but ignorance of how far contraceptives go) should be written off.

Mistakes don't "just" happen. I won't believe that for a second. If the condom breaks, then the partner doesn't know how to use it. Condom breakage is rare, I've looked at condom websites and they all say the same thing. Unless you don't properly put one on or use it properly.

Wouldn't being responsible and PREPARED (or abstinent) be better?

Look. Every couple I know who has casual sex wears protection and other preventative measures. I've even interviewed them for an essay I had to write in a theology course.
There are birth control pills available on the market. A couple having sex should take advantage of that.

A close friend had unprotected sex and got pregnant because she didn't think about the consequences. She had an abortion out of uneccessary fear that her parents would disown her when they would have helped her. She's regretted that decision.



QUOTE
And there is a horde of children who are still waiting to be adopted and odds are will never get adopted. We do not live in a perfect world. Not every child gets adopted and the system, while trying it's best, doesn't do the kids justice. Why do you want to put more kids into an over worked system?


We could curtail this problem if couples/women were responsible and aware of preventative measures.

QUOTE
If I were to cite a pro-choice documentary called "Babies love dying" you'd be calling it out for the clear bias it is.


Because there is no science that can tap into a person's brain and show their thoughts on a computer screen.

However, science can show that a baby's hearbeat increases during an abortion in the 11th week. Is this an indicator of pain? I'm not entirely sure. But it makes you wonder, no? If the baby can actually feel pain.


QUOTE
Let's cut to the jib. Moral or not abortion happens. There will always be women who want to get rid of their baby, whether it be legal or not. Here's a movie for you: When Abortion Was Illegal: Untold Stories


Watched the film. Interesting, but some stuff that caught my eye that seemed suspicious.

"90% of women are happy that they had an abortion a year later."

Where can I find the source of that statistic?

Also from the testimony, these women didn't feel comfortable about their decision.

QUOTE
Now, would you rather women seeking safe, professionally done procedures that assure the best for mother and termanie or do you want women seeking dangerous back alley abortions where they could really mess up?
Do you want the may to suffer, or the few?


And there is the falsehood.

Even in the safest clinics possible, mess-ups occur. Hemmoraging, damage to the cervix, and perforation of the uterus just to name a few. I can cite from a number of medical journals.

Doesn't the fact that the unborn baby has its own DNA seperate from the mother tell you something?


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Chiyo
post Mar 19 2010, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE
I've looked at condom websites and they all say the same thing.


I have to point out here that of course they are going to blame everyone but themselves. Accidents DO happen, even women on the pill have fallen pregnant. This is why the Morning After pill is available, so that when an accident occurs there is another way of trying to prevent pregnancy.

I just want to interject and say this is a debate and we are all entitled to our opinions but this is becoming a fight that neither side will win, so please try to avoid this going on much longer. Lively debate is healthy but make sure to keep above the belt.


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Popogeejo
post Mar 19 2010, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE
Mistakes don't "just" happen. I won't believe that for a second.

Then I'm afraid you're the one living in denial. Humans make mistakes, condoms can break, unplanned things can happen. How can you cite science so much and then deny human error?

QUOTE
If the condom breaks, then the partner doesn't know how to use it. Condom breakage is rare, I've looked at condom websites and they all say the same thing. Unless you don't properly put one on or use it properly.

Wow, condom sites say there is nothing wrong with their product!? Sure, if the condom breaks then the person doesn't know how to use and has thus made a mistake. But wait, mistakes don't happen!
There is no contraception method that is 100% guaranteed. Even then that's just contraception errors you're addressing while happily over looking cases of rape.

QUOTE
Wouldn't being responsible and PREPARED (or abstinent) be better?

See my previous comments about mistakes happening, rape happening and so forth.

QUOTE
However, science can show that a baby's hearbeat increases during an abortion in the 11th week. Is this an indicator of pain? I'm not entirely sure. But it makes you wonder, no? If the baby can actually feel pain.

Heart rates have nothing to do with perception of pain. The baby very literally has no feasible means of feeling pain. It's nervous system is just not up to it. Science says this. Science may also say this lump of cells is life but most scientists would also say it's not yet human.

QUOTE
Even in the safest clinics possible, mess-ups occur. Hemmoraging, damage to the cervix, and perforation of the uterus just to name a few. I can cite from a number of medical journals.

No one has denied this but there are tremendously safer than if they weren't done in professional clinics and you're smart enough to know this.
Very few medical procedures are 100% safe but it's still better to have a pro do it in a safe environment than to have some quack in a back alley do it.

QUOTE
Doesn't the fact that the unborn baby has its own DNA seperate from the mother tell you something?

That the clump of cells has the potential of becoming a human.

Again I say: Moral or not abortion will always happen so it's better to make it as safe as possible than to criminalise every woman who doesn't want to go through with her pregnancy. Of course people should use contraception but unwanted pregnancies can happen no matter what and there will always be women who want rid of the baby. To deny this is to deny reality.

Note: I tried to make this post before Chiyo's but the site timed out for me.


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post Mar 19 2010, 10:51 PM
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Let me begin by saying that I find it tremendously ironic to be reading some of the comments contained within this thread on an FMA forum, an anime that I believe accomplishes much in terms of highlighting the inherent value of each and every human line, regardless of its form or appearance.

Most of the modern arguments that I encounter in terms of affirmative abortion rights do not center around the question or whether the foetus is alive or human because science demonstrates that these conditions are true (the foetus is alive because it carries out / exhibits the vital processes of homeostasis, organization, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction and is human because its DNA defines it as such). Rather, modern "pro-choice" theory developed over the course of the last few decades concentrates on examining whether a mother's right to exercise control over her body morally overrides the foetus's right to live.

The fundamental right to life is firmly embodied in most all philosophical legal constructs of which I am aware. Indeed, the need for a legal system grew organically out of the desire of man to protect himself from those who would do him harm. While a similar "right not to be killed unjustly" proposition was introduced in 1971 by Judith Jarvis Thomson, I find this proposal to be quite disingenuous as longstanding legal and ethical systems have almost exclusively assumed that a person can be harmed only under special circumstances, rather than assuming that anyone can be harmed except in circumstances in which doing do would be unjust (i.e. "the policeman can shoot the robber because he has broken the law", rather than "the policeman cannot shoot the civilian because he has not broken the law").

Another point that is evident in classical systems of law is that not all rights are of equivalent worth and merit. For instance, I would almost certainly be sentenced to a longer prison stay if I were to kill my neighbor as opposed to if I only trespassed on my neighbor's property. This being said, one needs to determine in the abortion debate whether or not one human's right to live can be superseded by another human's right to own and control her body. While both rights are obviously precious, I believe that it is clearly obvious, at least from a legal if not moral perspective, that one's right to life is practically always paramount.

The above being said, one ought also mention that circumstances do exist where a person can justly undertake an action that would, by effect, result in the killing of an innocent person. As the particulars of this construct are quite intricate, I will not go into detail about this principle here, but rather provide a link for further reference (Principle of Double Effect). Suffice to say, this idea does not apply to the case of abortion as the killing of the foetus is the direct method by which an abortion is induced, not an unfortunate side-effect.

Some have recently posted comments asserting the permissibility of abortion on the basis of the size or relative awareness of the foetus or upon the mental needs of the mother involved. I must contest that, following my careful examination, most all of these arguments qualify as straw man arguments, red herrings, and/or false dichotomies. In particular, it is of little use to appeal to the comparative emotional wellbeing of the mother, especially in cases involving rape and/or incent, as negative psychological consequences may occur regardless of the abortion decision (and therefore must be considered as a separate issue).

In closing, I would like to make one remark that I feel is of particular importance. The abortion debate, contrary to the belief held by many, is not about "forcing" one's particular beliefs on others. It is by no means strictly a religious or spiritual question. The legality of abortion is contested by "pro-life" advocates because it involves an inherently innocent third party that deserves equal protection under the force of the law in accordance with basic human decency.

All human life, no matter how small, hidden, weak, poor, or undesirable, ought to be valued. smile.gif


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