HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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full metal alchemist
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Touka Koukan
hakai-kun
post Aug 17 2004, 07:58 PM
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in the anime, hoenheim told Al that if they want to regain back their bodies, they have to give back what they gained. what did they gain? sloth? so if sloth is what they gained, does that mean if they 'kill' sloth al will get his body back?
and was ed's leg taken b/c of human transmutation or because he saw the truth. in the manga it seemed like it was because he saw the truth. but i know the anime and manga are different.
sorry if there's already a discussion like this... XD


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pwx
post Aug 17 2004, 08:44 PM
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QUOTE(hakai-kun @ Aug 18 2004, 02:57 AM)

and was ed's leg taken b/c of human transmutation or because he saw the truth. in the manga it seemed like it was because he saw the truth. but i know the anime and manga are different.
sorry if there's already a discussion like this... XD

I've often wondered this too. I'm guessing that Al's body + Ed's leg = Transmutation cost and seeing the gate. While Eds arm = getting Al's soul back so he could affix it to that suit of armor.

But since Equivalent trade is such a complex thing, who knows.
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wolfi1412
post Aug 17 2004, 09:06 PM
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about something to get Al's body back, we'll find out in the next episodes..


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Kodachrome
post Aug 18 2004, 01:08 AM
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They have the fucking Philosphers Stone. They should be able to do it without returning Sloth to the otherside of the gate. -___-
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RolfKaese
post Aug 18 2004, 05:34 AM
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yes, they have the stone. but what to do with it? since al IS the p.stone, can Ed risks it to use the p.stone such easily? what if al will disappear if ed makes a mistake? he lost his brother just once, i dont think he wants that to happen again...


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Omakase Shimasu
post Aug 18 2004, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE(pwx @ Aug 18 2004, 03:44 AM)
QUOTE(hakai-kun @ Aug 18 2004, 02:57 AM)

and was ed's leg taken b/c of human transmutation or because he saw the truth. in the manga it seemed like it was because he saw the truth. but i know the anime and manga are different.
sorry if there's already a discussion like this... XD

I've often wondered this too. I'm guessing that Al's body + Ed's leg = Transmutation cost and seeing the gate. While Eds arm = getting Al's soul back so he could affix it to that suit of armor.

But since Equivalent trade is such a complex thing, who knows.

Very complex, 'cuz how on earth does an arm equal (affixing) a soul (to armor)?

Well, I don't think the anime and manga differ that much from the topic of Human Transmutation. Only that in the anime, when you perform Human Transmutation you get a Homonculus.


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Haroken
post Aug 18 2004, 08:23 AM
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I'd say the whol eordeal cost an arm and a leg! laugh.gif


.... unsure.gif that was bad.



Anyway, I'd say the body for the transmutation, the leg for the truth, and the arm for a soul.


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Omakase Shimasu
post Aug 18 2004, 08:30 AM
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OK... but Al saw the truth, too. So shouldn't that be a body for truth, as well? blink.gif


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post Aug 18 2004, 08:31 AM
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Homunculus

A homunculi is a 12 inch tall false human created through the means of alchemy. Paracelsus claimed to have created one to do work for him, but the creature soon turned on Paracelsus and ran away. The following is the method he described to have used to create the homunculi.

Ingredients:
1 bag of bones
sperm
skin and hair from the animal you want to mix it with

Directions:
1. Lay the ingredients on the ground.
2. Surround the ingredients with horse manure for forty days.
3. Through the theory of spontaneous generation, you should now have your homunculi.

Er, donít try this at home ^^;; It does not work. This is just background information from the Ďrealí world. I highly doubt that the homunculus from FMA was created by this... method. And incase youíre confused; homunculus is the plural form of homunculi.
Furthermore, an interesting fact about Paracelus was that is full birth name was actually Auroleus Phillipus Theophrastus Bombastus von Hohenheim. Assuming you discover that the last part of his name sounds quite familiar, remember the Elric brothers' father was called Hohenheim? Interesting that he did create homunculi as well...

that is what Serpents-Cross says the method for making a homunculus is XD
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TrueAlchemist
post Aug 18 2004, 03:45 PM
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Thanks guest for details on Homuculus.
But, I think your reply is kind of out of subject.
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cirle
post Aug 18 2004, 05:10 PM
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I get the fact that his soul is in the armor, but why does the armor get to break equivalent trade laws pre-PhilsopherStoneization. I think the armor is the worst use of equivalent trade. It doesn't need food or water (energy) yet it can move. That is something from nothing. Yet he still gets tired? How does he talk? He has no lungs. How are sound waves created from nothing. How does he think? He has no brain. That means that he is infinte energy. Something from nothing or 1/0. Now that he has the Philosopher's Stone it makes even less sense that he can break equivalent trade laws because he already does break them.


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TrueAlchemist
post Aug 18 2004, 06:32 PM
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Hey, cirle.
I see your point, and your idea is right with out any more discussion.

But, This is anime, science does not apply all the time.
And, that is also beauty of anime.

I cannot answer any of your question because Al's existence is one of many flaws in the FMA. But for the last one, I think I can add some of my idea. Eric brothers also believe that the Philosopher's stone has power to do any thing. At ep 44, we know from the conversation b/t Al and Hoenheim that the philosopher's stone cannot do everything.

Philosopher's stone is not a tool that can break the equivalent trade laws. I think it is merely tool that can help Alchemists to perform a high level alchemy like Human alchemy with out failure. I think it is more like a tool that has a power to go over "Energy barrier" in Chemical equation in order to start chemical reaction.

In real life chemistry, if chemist does not apply enough energy to some chemical substance, they do not react well or does not start a reaction because it does not have enough energy to go over "Energy Barrier" . Even the reaction started with out enough energy, it will not give chemists satisfiable products( simply, it will never give 100% results).

I think this idea apply in FMA alot. Eric brothers prepared enough reactants to make a human being, but they failed, and they made a monster, which is not a satisfiable product. laugh.gif
I think animators applied this simple chemical concepts and fantasy fiction to create FMA and alchemy world.

The idea of Equivalence is also one of basic chemistry idea. And, I think Equivalent trade law in FMA was also based on this simple chemical theory. It also applied in FMA, and that is why if Eric brothers reverse alchemy and somehow use Sloth(products) to regain reactants, which is their leg and body, they can regain Al's body and Ed's leg.

Cirle, what do you think about my idea???
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Guest_Guest_*
post Aug 19 2004, 03:27 AM
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okay.. in the world of chemistry.. there are only 2 laws of conservation:
conservations of enthalpy and entropy
enthalpy is energy, while entropy is the degree of "randomness"/"chaos"
however, in non-nuclear chemistry, conservation of mass is also applied. it says: the mass of reactants equals the mass of products.
i think this is the only law that is used in the anime, since both energy and randomness was not conserved at all..
but, some things in the anime do not have mass.. like knowledge and soul. but these things can be classified as a jolt of electricity and reactions in a human's brain... theoritically.
then again, this is alchemy and not chemistry, so what i'm saying might be completely irrelevant.

hm... i kinda like the idea of philosopher's stone as the extra energy to overcome the barrier... for a reaction to happen, the particles need to collide with enough energy to form a new particle.... or they're going to bounce off and nothing's gonna happen.

another point i'm making: not all chemical reactions are reversible. example: Sodium (Na) is a metal and Chloride (Cl) is a gas... they come together, given enough energy to overcome the energy barrier, and you'll get table salt.... this reaction is not reversible, since the properties of the new compound are very different from the reactants.
maybe Hohenheim was saying that Al and Ed may never get to reverse the process... he was putting them down a lil.

i think i've been studying too much... this is an anime anyways.
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Guest_Guest_*
post Aug 19 2004, 04:17 AM
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QUOTE
homunculus is the plural form of homunculi


Psst... Other way around wink.gif
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Guest_Guest_Psycojester_*
post Aug 19 2004, 05:00 AM
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another intresting thing about hoenhiem's (real life) homonculus, when people wanted to see it he claimed it had gone rogue on him and had run away
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