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Where's The Moral Outrage?!, Goddamn, this country pisses me off...
Fresh_Coffee
post Mar 28 2005, 10:20 AM
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QUOTE(Steel Alchemist @ Mar 28 2005, 10:15 AM)
Well there's another reason Gush is going to Hell.
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Who's Gush. I know no, Gush.


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Mar 28 2005, 03:51 PM
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This is me jumping in late to take a bit of a pot-shot, but this guy talked about 'winning' the debate over evolution... Winning what, exactly? It's not a sporting event. There's no medal or trophy that goes to the victor. All you'd be accomplishing is blurring0 the constitutional line that separates church and state. That line is there in this country for a reason, and has always been there. It's perfectly fine to teach evolutionary theory in public schools, because even if it isn't airtight, it's still the most plausible and scientifically sound theory on the origin of life that exists. If you don't want your kids being 'indoctrinated', as you put it, then teach them to question what they read. Unfortunately, Christians aren't very good about that because it also means questioning what the Bible says, too. And we don't want that, now do we? rolleyes.gif


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RemyLeBeau
post Mar 29 2005, 08:29 AM
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Bacon, you have no idea what you're talking about.

1 - I never claimed to 'win' the debate about evolution, but I don't know if anybody else started one or not. Last I checked, I had a monopoly on being the Christian wanker that everybody wants to hit.

2 - Destroying evolution (Even if it is possible - people cling to it like a *gasp* religion) would NOT blur the line between church and state for some simple reasons:
-----Just because a false theory is removed from school doesn't mean everybody will suddenly be bringing the Pope in to supervise or anything like that. The intellectual vacuum created by evolution's downfall would instead draw in some even more ludicrous theory, like 'The world fell out of a singularity and we just happened to be on it.'
-----People seem to think that the separation of church and state means no religious person should be allowed within a hundred feet of any public school. WRONG. What the founding fathers meant when they wrote this was to safeguard against a sadly corrupt Catholic church accusing scientists of heresy when they showed their new findings. The separation of church and state, I believe, is being twisted into a way to get every Christian as far away from schools as they possibly can. I repeat: It is not wrong to talk about God in school, it is not wrong to be a teacher and a deacon at your local church, and it is NOT NOT NOT wrong to tell other people about your faith! If some person from another religion hates God so much that he flies into an uncontrollable rage at the merest mention of His name, then maybe (just maybe) it's not the Christian at fault here? And I also want to note that despite what you've been told, the average ratio of Christians to Atheists to other religions is something like 3-1-1. (That's our school though, so don't think I'm talking about the US or anything)

3 - Evolution is to Airtight as Wet Paper Bag is to Durable. I've illustrated in the other thread several times that the key operations needed to create life even in an infinite galaxy is horrendously unlikely at best, completely impossible at other points! I don't want to get in a big involved deal here, because this isn't a science thread - but if you're looking for info about it, read that thread. It's around in this category somewhere.

4 - I don't want my kids to be indoctrinated. I want them to access all the facts on a given issue (Which you cannot do in schools - I cite the science book sticker incident and many others.) and then analyze the information, and finally come to a conclusion. I repeat: Christianity should NOT be taught in public school, but NEITHER should Evolution. They are both *religions* because it takes just as much faith to believe we came from sloshing sea foam than it does to believe God made us from the dust of the earth.


My Parthian Shot: Christianity will never be a scientific theory - the whole point of it is belief based on faith. HOWEVER, Evolution is more like a recipe: Prepare forged bones, (Almost 30% of important evolutionary fossils found in the 19th and early 20th century were forgeries.) rub vigorously with faulty logic, (These bones are in this soil. Therefore the bones are X years old. This soil is the only place these bones are found. Therefore the soil is X years old. Circular reasoning.) and insert in half-baked theory. (We were all a little teeny dot. The dot exploded. The explosion turned into the universe. See? No more God. Now we can all ditch our consciences and have fun!!) Let stand for thirty minutes and serve over hostility. (What? You dare attack our theory? Hypocrisy! To me, my brothers! We must lynch the unbeliever!)

Okay, that's all for now.


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RogueAlchemist
post Mar 29 2005, 10:55 AM
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As far as the whole separation of church and state goes, it's orginal purpose to be included in this place was to prevent a national religion that was run by the government. The original reason for the first immigration from the UK, as I recall, was to escape the religion that was pressed upon them. If you feel that my statement is wrong, feel free to correct it, but that is simply my opinion on this matter.


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RemyLeBeau
post Mar 29 2005, 11:11 AM
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That was I guess what I meant. The big thing is that although the founding fathers went to america to escape the oppressing catholics, they did not abandon their religion.
If they saw the kind of systematic elimination of all things religious that happens today, I think they would be spinning in their graves.

still my opinion.


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post Mar 29 2005, 12:26 PM
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Most of the founding fathers WERE NOT Christians. Do your research and you'll know what I mean. Most of them were Deists. A few of them were outspoken critics of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson first and foremost.

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Don't get me started about evolution. I will fight to the death. And I will win. I swear it.
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hitokiri
post Mar 29 2005, 03:07 PM
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QUOTE
1 - I never claimed to 'win' the debate about evolution, but I don't know if anybody else started one or not. Last I checked, I had a monopoly on being the Christian wanker that everybody wants to hit.
see the oh and by the way post to see how you are just lying with this statement...

QUOTE
2 - Destroying evolution (Even if it is possible - people cling to it like a *gasp* religion) would NOT blur the line between church and state for some simple reasons:
-----Just because a false theory is removed from school doesn't mean everybody will suddenly be bringing the Pope in to supervise or anything like that. The intellectual vacuum created by evolution's downfall would instead draw in some even more ludicrous theory, like 'The world fell out of a singularity and we just happened to be on it.'
-----People seem to think that the separation of church and state means no religious person should be allowed within a hundred feet of any public school. WRONG. What the founding fathers meant when they wrote this was to safeguard against a sadly corrupt Catholic church accusing scientists of heresy when they showed their new findings. The separation of church and state, I believe, is being twisted into a way to get every Christian as far away from schools as they possibly can. I repeat: It is not wrong to talk about God in school, it is not wrong to be a teacher and a deacon at your local church, and it is NOT NOT NOT wrong to tell other people about your faith! If some person from another religion hates God so much that he flies into an uncontrollable rage at the merest mention of His name, then maybe (just maybe) it's not the Christian at fault here? And I also want to note that despite what you've been told, the average ratio of Christians to Atheists to other religions is something like 3-1-1. (That's our school though, so don't think I'm talking about the US or anything)
the biggest problem with allowing religion in schools is that christianity is heavily emphasized over other religions. how many americans out of 100 would know who Lao Tzu is or what famous text he wrote? how many americans would know what the basic concepts of shintoism are? can you say that more than 10 out of 100 would know that the Dhali Lama is thought of as a false prophet by the majority of buddhists? these things are only taught at high school senior level electives at best, mostly one would need to take an asian studies course in college to even find out these simple facts.... but christianity and your "God" (and seriously how uncreative can you be when naming a diety) is promoted via almost every aspect of public schooling in some way; the pledge, the observance of christian holidays only, the convenient lack of information about how christian churches caused/condone many atrocities...(ex. the holocaust, slavery, the slaughtering of "heathens" by the "benevolent" missionaries, etc)

QUOTE
I don't want my kids to be indoctrinated. I want them to access all the facts on a given issue

you mean like the forced conversion of people by missionaries (upon the penalty of death)


QUOTE
My Parthian Shot:  Christianity will never be a scientific theory - the whole point of it is belief based on faith. HOWEVER, Evolution is more like a recipe: Prepare forged bones, (Almost 30% of important evolutionary fossils found in the 19th and early 20th century were forgeries.) rub vigorously with faulty logic, (These bones are in this soil. Therefore the bones are X years old. This soil is the only place these bones are found. Therefore the soil is X years old. Circular reasoning.) and insert in half-baked theory.
yes there were forgeries, but not as many as the amount of religious forgeries created to protect the church over the years... also most of the fossils found post 1960 were CARBON DATED... now if you want to argue against the validity of carbon-14 dating... well good luck.

QUOTE
(We were all a little teeny dot. The dot exploded. The explosion turned into the universe. See? No more God. Now we can all ditch our consciences and have fun!!) Let stand for thirty minutes and serve over hostility. (What? You dare attack our theory? Hypocrisy! To me, my brothers! We must lynch the unbeliever!)
so basically what you are talking about is the moral superioty of christians?! hmmm.... then why were more wars and atrocities commited by christians than any other group, even though they are NOT the majority globally and have NEVER been. why is that almost no christian land has ever declared non-civil war? also why is that the strife in africa didn't start till the arrival of christians? same is true of the pre- euro-imperialist nations of asia... yes damn those wicked heathens and their peaceful non-christian ways...

again: READ A BOOK!!!


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alchemist x
post Mar 29 2005, 03:20 PM
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RemyLeBeau
post Mar 31 2005, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE
the biggest problem with allowing religion in schools is that christianity is heavily emphasized over other religions. how many americans out of 100 would know who Lao Tzu is or what famous text he wrote? how many americans would know what the basic concepts of shintoism are? can you say that more than 10 out of 100 would know that the Dhali Lama is thought of as a false prophet by the majority of buddhists? these things are only taught at high school senior level electives at best, mostly one would need to take an asian studies course in college to even find out these simple facts.... but christianity and your "God" (and seriously how uncreative can you be when naming a diety) is promoted via almost every aspect of public schooling in some way; the pledge, the observance of christian holidays only, the convenient lack of information about how christian churches caused/condone many atrocities...(ex. the holocaust, slavery, the slaughtering of "heathens" by the "benevolent" missionaries, etc)

Hmm, I can see this will never be resolved by simple fact-stating. How about this: Take my school for an example. We have almost 1500 kids from 7th to 12th grade. Our school did a random poll of 500 kids and found that 84% of them were Christian. There was no minority religious groups, it was either Christian or Atheist. So - there is a 4-1 ratio here.
Well, if you want so badly to tell kids about all these great religions they are missing out on, how about a ratio? 4 out of every 5 theological classes will be Christian-based, and the last one can be Atheistic, Bhuddist, whatever you want.
I can almost see the veins popping out of your forehead now. Why? This is a perfectly fair way of educating students. In fact, it's better than you would get in a democracy, where the 84% would get what they want and the remaining 16% can go shove it.
The simple fact is, you have a double standard. You want very much to educate kids about religions like Bhuddism and Taoism and all that jazz. BUT as soon as Christianity is mentioned, you wail like a banshee about the separation of church and state. Double standard.
And not to mention the fact that an atheist has no religion at all, so IMO should shut their hole about the issue.
If you think Christianity is being overemphasized in schools, obviously you don't spend much time in school. My mother teaches the young, impressionable 5th grade, and she got in some serious trouble because she had a Christmas tree in the room around December. BUT what gets me so mad is that if it had been a mock Islamic temple or a model Bhuddist shrine, she would have been commended for giving the kids some culture.
A double standard is one of the worst fallacies, and before you can change my opinion on anything at all, you need to apply your logic to yourself as well as me.

QUOTE

you mean like the forced conversion of people by missionaries (upon the penalty of death)


Oh, so now the sins of the fathers are transposed upon the children? Then why don't we talk about the Nazis, who threw an entire world into war and strife in the name of evolution. (Their thinking was that war and struggle weeded out the weaker ones, creating their Ultimate Race.)
The government, under an Evolutionist rule, burned books, censored information, spewed propaganda like an incinerator, and any opposition to their ideas was quietly killed in their sleep.

Nazis also exterminated gypsies, homosexuals, Jews, and about any race other than Germans. They even turned on their own allies in about the very worst strategic decision ever.

So don't even start with me about how missionaries were so bad - or I'll tattoo a swastika on your forehead.

QUOTE
yes there were forgeries, but not as many as the amount of religious forgeries created to protect the church over the years... also most of the fossils found post 1960 were CARBON DATED... now if you want to argue against the validity of carbon-14 dating... well good luck.


Argue the validity of carbon-14 dating? I can and will. Carbon-14 dating rests on flimsy assumptions, one of which states that conditions in prehistoric times had to be similar to the ones at present day. This is contradicted by evolution's own timeline, which spans Ice Ages and a bubbling hot ball of magma that will (Over miilliions and biilliions of years) eventually turn into earth.

Carbon-14 dating rests on these conditions: The amount of carbon in our atmosphere must be the same as it is now. The amount of carbon isotope in relation to its daughter elements must be the same as it is now. The rate of decay must be EXACTLY the same as it is now, and absolutely nothing can come into contact with the sample until the point of dating.

Now, think of a critter. It dies. Luckily, the amount of carbon-to-lead ratio is exactly as it is today, because otherwise the whole thing will be off, sometimes by up to a hundred million years. This little guy dies, then flops into a sterilized glass jar, one that is lined with up to an inch of inert lead to stop the interaction of it and the outside world. (Electromagnetic waves can alter the reading, as can ambient radiation and imbalances of it.) Then a lid to the jar just happens to fall onto it, and the forces of random chance tighten it. Then the jar is buried deep into the earth, waiting for some dunderhead evolutionary geologist to come and misdate it.

There are records of live seals being carbon-dated and seen as almost a hundred thousand years old. There are also files and records of tests done between carbon-dating labs. A bit of the same sample was sent to each of four labs, and the dates returned differed by almost a million years. Hmm, and this is what we base our geological theories upon?

Carbon-14 is also easily leached from rocks when the water table rises or when rainwater filters down from above. The daughter products of Carbon-14 decay, however, stay in the rock much more - thus causing the rocks to appear much older than they really are.

There are also Neon, Argon, Radium, Polonium, and several other forms of testing. All of them are jsut as flawed as Carbon-14, and I can outline each one if you must. However, my hands are tired so I hope you will believe me for once.


QUOTE
so basically what you are talking about is the moral superioty of christians?! hmmm.... then why were more wars and atrocities commited by christians than any other group, even though they are NOT the majority globally and have NEVER been. why is that almost no christian land has ever declared non-civil war? also why is that the strife in africa didn't start till the arrival of christians? same is true of the pre- euro-imperialist nations of asia... yes damn those wicked heathens and their peaceful non-christian ways...

Peaceful Non-Christian ways? Like the Nazis?

QUOTE
again: READ A BOOK!!!


Actually, I have a most excellent book you should read: You can buy it online for $2.00, and about $1.00 for S&H. It's called The Evolution Cruncher, and systematically debunks every 'scientific' principle that evolution called into being.

However, the book is 2000-some pages, so I don't know if you could struggle your way through it. But never fear! The Internet contains a website version of the book, slightly condensed and divided into chapters. You can find it at:

http://www.evolution-facts.org

Click the link above the fossilized hammer, the one that says 'Evolution Cruncher to C'. It will list every chapter that has been digitized. I recommend you read these ones first, they are the most crucial to your argument:

http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-Crunch/c02a.htm
http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-Crunch/c06a.htm
http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-Crunch/c10a.htm


And now I say to you: READ THREE CHAPTERS!! (Unless that's too much for you, that is.)


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l|Kouga|l-Youkai
post Mar 31 2005, 11:32 AM
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Bush was a mistake, i'm not much of a polotician but what he's doing sux. Sending more and more soldiers out there and he makes it looks like he cars they die but he doesn't. He just want's to win. Shoulda gave it to kerry, atleast he was actually in the war, not like pussy bush who watched from the sidelines.


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hitokiri
post Mar 31 2005, 12:24 PM
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again with the poorly designed arguements? so be it... let's begin once more....

QUOTE(RemyLeBeau @ Mar 31 2005, 01:11 PM)
Hmm, I can see this will never be resolved by simple fact-stating.
excuse me, but what facts (not opinions) have you stated in previous posts... seriously point them out.... i want to know.

QUOTE
How about this: Take my school for an example. We have almost 1500 kids from 7th to 12th grade. Our school did a random poll of 500 kids and found that 84% of them were Christian. There was no minority religious groups, it was either Christian or Atheist. So - there is a 4-1 ratio here.
key word is HERE, undestand that your nice little cheese farming, wonderbread community is NOT the only type of community our there. we're talking about NATIONAL policy.... how would you like it if i based national policy on one of the schools in northern new jersey where judism, islam, and buddhism outnumbers christianity? which leads to my next point...

QUOTE
Well, if you want so badly to tell kids about all these great religions they are missing out on, how about a ratio? 4 out of every 5 theological classes will be Christian-based, and the last one can be Atheistic, Bhuddist, whatever you want.
I can almost see the veins popping out of your forehead now. Why? This is a perfectly fair way of educating students. In fact, it's better than you would get in a democracy, where the 84% would get what they want and the remaining 16% can go shove it.
The simple fact is, you have a double standard. You want very much to educate kids about religions like Bhuddism and Taoism and all that jazz. BUT as soon as Christianity is mentioned, you wail like a banshee about the separation of church and state. Double standard.
And not to mention the fact that an atheist has no religion at all, so IMO should shut their hole about the issue.
If you think Christianity is being overemphasized in schools, obviously you don't spend much time in school. My mother teaches the young, impressionable 5th grade, and she got in some serious trouble because she had a Christmas tree in the room around December. BUT what gets me so mad is that if it had been a mock Islamic temple or a model Bhuddist shrine, she would have been commended for giving the kids some culture.
A double standard is one of the worst fallacies, and before you can change my opinion on anything at all, you need to apply your logic to yourself as well as me.
you don't exactly know how to read some much do you? or maybe you just pick out a few words you like here and there, and then make up little sentences that you like in your head... you missed the entire damned point... the best way to deal with religion in a public setting is to either to avoid ALL of it or promote ALL of them equally. if people want to be religious, thats what YOUR OWN time is for. as for the thing with your mother, yes she should have repremanded... but she should also have been repremanded if it as ANY other religion as well... and if you say this promotes atheism.... how can you promote the lack of something?! its like saying just cause i don't donate to aids research, i'm an advocate of aids. its the basis of religious faith is that god/gods/religion is in your heart always, so what is the big deal if it isn't taught? if the lack of constant reinforcement of your beliiefs worries you, maybe you should decide if you really believe in it....

oh by the way... its B-U-D-D-H-I-S-T......

QUOTE
Oh, so now the sins of the fathers are transposed upon the children? Then why don't we talk about the Nazis, who threw an entire world into war and strife in the name of evolution. (Their thinking was that war and struggle weeded out the weaker ones, creating their Ultimate Race.)
The government, under an Evolutionist rule, burned books, censored information, spewed propaganda like an incinerator, and any opposition to their ideas was quietly killed in their sleep.

Nazis also exterminated gypsies, homosexuals, Jews, and about any race other than Germans. They even turned on their own allies in about the very worst strategic decision ever.

So don't even start with me about how missionaries were so bad - or I'll tattoo a swastika on your forehead.


the nazis? wow you must be desparate to try to use the nazis... ok nazis... silently condoned by the catholic church... FACT... hilter used the name of God in his speeches... FACT... the aryan race is based on the claim that they were supposedly the chosen people of God, orginally from the area of the world that is Iran now, and have claim as the true believers..... FACT.

using nazis is the worst type of argument, trying to pull heart strings instead of using fact...

QUOTE
Argue the validity of carbon-14 dating? I can and will. Carbon-14 dating rests on flimsy assumptions, one of which states that conditions in prehistoric times had to be similar to the ones at present day. This is contradicted by evolution's own timeline, which spans Ice Ages and a bubbling hot ball of magma that will (Over miilliions and biilliions of years) eventually turn into earth.

Carbon-14 dating rests on these conditions: The amount of carbon in our atmosphere must be the same as it is now. The amount of carbon isotope in relation to its daughter elements must be the same as it is now. The rate of decay must be EXACTLY the same as it is now, and absolutely nothing can come into contact with the sample until the point of dating.

Now, think of a critter. It dies. Luckily, the amount of carbon-to-lead ratio is exactly as it is today, because otherwise the whole thing will be off, sometimes by up to a hundred million years. This little guy dies, then flops into a sterilized glass jar, one that is lined with up to an inch of inert lead to stop the interaction of it and the outside world. (Electromagnetic waves can alter the reading, as can ambient radiation and imbalances of it.) Then a lid to the jar just happens to fall onto it, and the forces of random chance tighten it. Then the jar is buried deep into the earth, waiting for some dunderhead evolutionary geologist to come and misdate it.

There are records of live seals being carbon-dated and seen as almost a hundred thousand years old. There are also files and records of tests done between carbon-dating labs. A bit of the same sample was sent to each of four labs, and the dates returned differed by almost a million years. Hmm, and this is what we base our geological theories upon?

Carbon-14 is also easily leached from rocks when the water table rises or when rainwater filters down from above. The daughter products of Carbon-14 decay, however, stay in the rock much more - thus causing the rocks to appear much older than they really are.

There are also Neon, Argon, Radium, Polonium, and several other forms of testing. All of them are jsut as flawed as Carbon-14, and I can outline each one if you must. However, my hands are tired so I hope you will believe me for once.


yes what you say is true....BUT... you are arguing that because of a few potential pitfalls of carbon dating; hundreds of thousands of fossils, found in many different places, are all flawed. when a pool of samples that large all point to the SAME conclusion, you can't just deny it cause of potential flaws... thats what the ANOMALY portions of surveys are for... your concerns have already been thought about by researchers. it would be like denying the fact that airbags save lives, just because some fail to deploy, others burn people, and some are just mismanufactured.

QUOTE
Peaceful Non-Christian ways? Like the Nazis?


ok i refer you to the above portion to cover the nazis.... but are you honestly saying that more war, strife, plauge, and death has NOT been caused by the arrival of the christian missionaries (colonizers). i point out the pre-christian africa... relatively peaceful with the exception of an occasional small scale intertribal conflict. now lets advance to the christian arrival... slavery, war, rape, theft of land.... do i have to go on?!

QUOTE
Actually, I have a most excellent book you should read: You can buy it online for $2.00, and about $1.00 for S&H. It's called The Evolution Cruncher, and systematically debunks every 'scientific' principle that evolution called into being.

However, the book is 2000-some pages, so I don't know if you could struggle your way through it. But never fear! The Internet contains a website version of the book, slightly condensed and divided into chapters.


$3.00 for a 2000 page book.... hmmm.... that means someone is purposely subsidizing the production of this book. there is no way to produce a 2000 page book for that little, the binding alone would be about $2.45 per unit and at a rate of one cent per 20 pages just for the paper alone, the going rate for books that are being produced in 100,000 or more units at a time, that comes out to $3.45 before inking... so what does that mean? this book is meant to promote a certain point of view over all others, in the publisher's attempt to promote proganda... so i'm not even gonna touch it... but i'm almost certain i've heard of their arguments before..... Columbia University Parliamentary Debate Team 1995-1997; in that time i heard just about every anti-evolution argument known to man... while they do have a few facts to back it, there are just as many flaws as in the "wrong" theories they denounce, if not more.

go out and talk to people on both sides... that are willing to accept that they are potentially wrong, which is the principle behind scientific thought. get some perspective...


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Guest_A bemused observer_*
post Mar 31 2005, 12:24 PM
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I'd have to say that this Remy LeBeau guy has a pretty warped sense of history. Not to mention horrible logic.
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Carnal Malefacto...
post Apr 12 2006, 08:51 PM
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Man... this topic got WAAAAAY off track, dinnit? laugh.gif


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Le Monkey
post Apr 12 2006, 09:04 PM
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hmm yes it did.. XD
I did re read through it about 3 days ago and thaught that myself..
and the remy bloke was overly annyoing but seemed to give up at Hitos picking the obvious holes in his plan.. tongue.gif


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Apr 12 2006, 09:06 PM
Post #60


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Mr. LeBeau [not his real name] was a douchebag.


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