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Evolution? Creation?, What do you believe in?
What do you believe in?
You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.
Total Votes: 207
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TheRainbowConnec...
post Jun 5 2007, 12:03 AM
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QUOTE(Sword Alchemist @ Jun 4 2007, 06:44 PM) [snapback]549859[/snapback]
I voted for Creation.

If evolution was real and we really did evolve from apes then why are there still apes?

It's not as if all the apes, as one, decided that "Hey guys! Let's evolve now!"

My genes are different from yours. I am better adapted at some things genetically, while you are at others. Some of that variation has been passed down to me via my ancestors' genes. Far fewer are my body's own spontaneous mutations. After all, just as people make mistakes, so do little bits of protein-machinery. A new species evolves via accumulating enough mutations (over many, many, MANY generations) such that it may no longer procreate successfully with the original species (among other criteria). The great majority of the original species stays intact. The population of a new species is very, very, VERY tiny at the outset. (go Wiki "founder effect").

QUOTE
As for the so called Big Bang theory, how can anyone say that everything just came together at the right moment creating the universe and everything we see around us? Look at how complex the human body is. Look at how complex the universe is.
There are plenty of scientists out there explaining it. Just because you do not understand something does not make it untrue. If you want to educate yourself, have at it:

PubMed
National Academy of Sciences
Nature
Science
Scientific American

(Sorry, I'm a biologist, so I don't really know any physical science journals.)

QUOTE
Things just dont happen.

They totally do. Probability. Error. Chaos. Entropy.

Stuff happens all the time. Simply because it could. (Although typically with low probabilities)
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MonsterEnvy
post Jun 11 2007, 07:33 AM
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I'd like to put forth the 'Anthropic argument.' It's not exactly scientific, but it addresses one of the creationist's major points. Many creationists (and especially Intelligent Design supporters) argue that there is no way that the universe could possibly be so well adapted to human life without an outside force shaping it in that way. They cite that, if the properties of molecules were but slightly different, matter would not be able to conglomerate and shape the universe as we know it. Additionally, the likelihood of evolution happening as it is today (don't cite me on this) is supposedly equal to the likelihood of an explosion in a junkyard creating a perfectly formed 747 jet.

The anthropic argument states the following: If the universe did not exist in the exact form that it does, it would not, for our intents and purposes, exist at all. Therefore, we should not be amazed or surprised at its existence.

The logic behind this is that, if the universe was not in a form that would support human life, it would not exist because there would be nothing to observe it. Truthfully, it would not be as much that it did not exist as that it would not matter to anything that it does exist. If nothing cares, what benefit is existence? It's the classic 'If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?' applied to the universe. The answer to the first is 'no-' a sound require hearing.

The analogy can be rephrased easily enough- 'If the universe begins, and no one is around to observe it, does it really exist?' Existence requires that something is affected by it. If we have a tasteless, odorless, invisible, massless, spaceless substance, does that exist? We could certainly say that it is all around us constantly, but there is no evidence that it exists, and therefore it does not. A universe with no life would also not exist- not because it is unsensable, but because there are no senses with which to sense it.

So, by the anthropic argument, because the universe is so perfectly formed is no reason to argue that a god must have created it. In fact, if it was not so perfectly formed it would not exist. The same argument, in a slightly more arguable context, can be applied to evolution. Without higher-order life, the universe, arguably, would still not exist. Lower life forms, such as bacteria, and even as high as insects, reptiles, and some mammals, do not truly 'observe' the universe. They live, eat, die, and reproduce. Only with higher order life can the universe exist in a meaningful context- therefore, the fact that people have evolved is also not a cause to argue for intelligent design or creation.

Finally, to depart from the anthropic argument- I mentioned that the likelihood of people evolving is about equal to the 747 in the junkyard. However, the probability of something evolving is very high, as evidence by the amazing speed at which organisms began to evolve after the earth was suitable for life.

Please, don't use that argument again. I'm sorry if I've depleted the Creationist's arsenal.


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Night Shadow Alc...
post Jun 11 2007, 07:36 AM
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i reckon god created the big bang and let it do its thing and probably guided it to create things like us and .... but i dont think everything was created in 7 days and that adam and eve where the first humans. I believe in evolution but that god guided the universe in this path.


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blackpheonix7
post Jun 11 2007, 07:37 AM
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Heh....this reminds me so much of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'....


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DonQuigleone
post Jun 15 2007, 08:44 AM
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ditto on the the anthropic argument, I'm an atheist and frankly see creationism as being neither here nor there, frankly they're not worth your time (which is why most scientists don't debate). But I enjoy getting people riled, and if someone changes their mind well that's a nice bonus,

I find the biggest problem in such debates is that most people (even the people who are proponents of evolution) don't know the facts, to be fair they're not biologists so it can't be expected, and I'm gonna say right now that though I know it pretty well I can't say I know everything there is to know.

The first thing I have to say about creationism is why should we believe YOU, there's a million other groups of religions and cultists out there who have equally ridiculous things to say, and there's no difference between whether what you say and what the aztecs said is true. As it is the only the theory with any remote kind of evidence is evolution.

The other thing which makes me cringe is when guys ask why are monkeys still around, the fact of the matter is is that monkeys are a hell of a lot better at surviving where they live then we are, I challenge you to live for a year with the chimps! You'd probably have quite a bit of trouble, and anyway evolution isn't just about beneficial genes getting passed on, the core of evolution in SEXUAL selection.

While those with negative traits will simply die due to survival pressures, there's a second even more important pressure which tells us why the hell peacocks have those ridiculously impractical tails, and that's sexual selection, the fact is that one of the most important elements of the system is who breeds, the fact is webbed fingers might be a positive trait (it's a mutation that comes around quite often and usually removed at birth), in fact it would be as it allows better swimming, so why don't we all have webbed fingers? simple reason, we're grossed out by it, would you go out with a guy with webbed fingers? I know I wouldn't, Blonde hair cam about for the same reason, because it's sexually attractive (makes em look younger) other than that it has no evolutionary significance. I'm not great at explaining all this but check out any book and it will say it all

Also we are designed rather impractically, now if I was designing my ultimate creation, I'd give it wheels, have it be able to eat it's own excrement for sustanance, and I wouldn't give it EAR LOBES, I mean what's with that, I'd also give it wings and a way larger brain, Are we like that? no, Physically we cannot achive anything that other animals can achieve, we're slower, can't fly or swim and don't have anywher near as much endurance, and even in the mental department we're not that great, look at all the ridiculous psychological conditions we can suffer from! I mean honestly, if we were designed I'm gonna sock that guy one

Finally I think all that stuff about god caring whether we pray to him or not is just simply bull, I'll live my life in a good manner (benefitting my fellow man) if there is a god (and there probably isn't) and he says I can't go to heaven because I didn't believe in him then I'll go to hell, because I don't want to be in the kind of heaven where a man of faith is held above a man of good
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Stranger...
post Jul 14 2007, 06:50 AM
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I believe god made our existence and everything in the bible is true. However this doesn't make me committed to it cause i haven't seen personal signs that it's true. I don't believe in evolution simply for these two things:

1. I refuse to believe that in my past generation my family were monkeys blink.gif
2. If evolution was true why won't apes nowadays evolve. even if the thing of different genes is true , how can all apes stop 'evolving' now?
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DonQuigleone
post Jul 14 2007, 10:15 AM
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QUOTE(Stranger... @ Jul 14 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]561839[/snapback]
I believe god made our existence and everything in the bible is true. However this doesn't make me committed to it cause i haven't seen personal signs that it's true. I don't believe in evolution simply for these two things:

1. I refuse to believe that in my past generation my family were monkeys blink.gif
2. If evolution was true why won't apes nowadays evolve. even if the thing of different genes is true , how can all apes stop 'evolving' now?


1. they weren't monkeys per se, it's just that us and monkeys share a common ancestor, in evolution no animal is of a "higher order" than another (and yes we're animals people tongue.gif ) they evolved in a different direction from us, and it was REALLY FAR BACK, I MEAN REALLY FAR, REALLY

2. Monkeys haven't "stopped evolving" we aren't the center of the universe and the ultimate product of evolution with monkeys being a failed version, monkeys are adapted to do stuff we couldn't hope to achieve (YOU TRY LIVING IN A TREE) Us and monkeys evolved different adaptations and adapted to different environments
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That One Dude
post Aug 21 2007, 08:33 PM
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Truth is, I think that maybe God created us, then made us evolve from the apes, and so forth, that most (not all) historical events of the bible (Moses, Jesus, etc.) are true, but also some are not.

...

Why is there not a 'Neutral', 'Neither' or 'God made us evolve' vote? *Off-topic quest, I know, but I must know...*


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Popogeejo
post Aug 21 2007, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE(Nathaniel @ Aug 22 2007, 04:33 AM) *
Why is there not a 'Neutral', 'Neither' or 'God made us evolve' vote? *Off-topic quest, I know, but I must know...*

There is, intelligent design.
QUOTE(The poll clearly says)
Intelligent Design - I don't know who, when, or why, but we were created.


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Razzia
post Oct 10 2007, 03:12 PM
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I respect other peoples religions and beliefs, but I can't belive
that some magical man appeared out of nowhere and
just **POOF**, we came to exist.(not to offend)


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ἀρχή
post Oct 10 2007, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE(Razzia @ Oct 10 2007, 06:12 PM) *
I respect other peoples religions and beliefs, but I can't belive
that some magical man appeared out of nowhere and
just **POOF**, we came to exist.(not to offend)

I would agree that I can't believe that a "magical man appeared out of nowhere and
just **POOF**, we came to exist." It does not, however, have anything to do with creation belief.

God is not a man
God is not magical
God does not appear from anywhere let alone nowhere
God does not use sound effects - ex nihilo doesn't "**POOF**"


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Omamori
post Apr 3 2008, 05:37 PM
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Creation. However, the theory of evolution is something I don't completely reject.

While studying hermeticism, I discovered that many of them (especially the Rosicrucians) believed that Evolution is just man's process to becoming a God or god-like (i.e. From protozoa to reigning over their own planets), and they do believe in God (or, at least, -a- god).

Mormons believe that they will become Gods themselves, so, I found this fact concerning the Hermetics quite interesting; it makes sense, after all (humans become god-like through evolution).


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Petra
post Apr 3 2008, 05:57 PM
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I believe that God created the Earth in seven days. Why is that not on the list?


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Popogeejo
post Apr 3 2008, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE(Petra @ Apr 4 2008, 01:57 AM) *
I believe that God created the Earth in seven days. Why is that not on the list?

It's the second option.
QUOTE
Creation - Jeebus waves his hand and makes the world.

The Jeebus part is just a bit of humour, just like the monkeys and soup line.

Also, this here be a debate, you should really explain why you think what you do and if possibly provide evidence/support for your theory.


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FailToImpress
post Aug 30 2008, 03:44 PM
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I'm totally for Evolution. While I try my best to respect people's beliefs on certain things, I find it hard to respect the belief of people who genuinely believe in creationism. The part that gets me most about them is what they call 'creation science'. Anyone with a reasonable level of scientific knowledge will see straight through their claims, as their science is not proper science. They make up numbers to fit in with their beliefs, make straw man arguments against evolution etc.
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