HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Where Do You Stand Politically?, Find out by taking this questionnaire
Quistis88
post Nov 29 2004, 07:59 PM
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Funny how society can view abortion and murder as one thing, yet two separate things. But then comes the part where if you meld them together as one thing, one would basically be saying that legally, all mothers who decide to have an abortion should be charged for murder. Then there would be an awful lot of people in jail. And should you separate the two (abortion and murder), then abortion would no longer be murder.

Oh, the circles.


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Nov 29 2004, 08:01 PM
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A fetus is not a child.

And the way I see it, it's less objectionable to take away someone's life who's yet to experience it at all, than threaten that of someone who has already lived and wants to keep on living without the pain, shame and burden of birthing and raising an unwanted child.


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Bling_bling_Ange...
post Nov 29 2004, 08:04 PM
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I'm not sure that's acceptable for me...

Abortion falls under murder because you're snuffing out the life of someone who could have been "something" in this world.

A fetus not a child? What is it then? A mass of blob floating along? It is a human being as soon as it is concieved, by rape or consent.


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Quistis88
post Nov 29 2004, 08:04 PM
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I suppose the fetus =(?) child issue depends on which trimester the pregnancy is in. Nonetheless, anti-abortionists speak of abortion as the killing of human beings, yet philosophically, we define human beings as rational creatures. The fetus/developing child, depending on the stage of the pregnancy, is incapable of acting or anything that can prove its rationality, therefore, some see it as "not a human being." sad.gif

Apparently, if you put it like that, then abortion is not justifiable, but permissible.


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Bling_bling_Ange...
post Nov 29 2004, 08:07 PM
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sad.gif Very true, sempai...

But then, since toddlers and infants have no use of reason yet, then they're not human beings? And what about mentally-disabled? They're not humans?


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Quistis88
post Nov 29 2004, 08:09 PM
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That's what so funny about human reasoning, I suppose. If something has been born and is out of the womb, it naturally becomes a human being. I have no coherent ways to answer your question of use of reason at the moment. I'll come back to that later. tongue.gif


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Nov 29 2004, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE(Bling_bling_Angel @ Nov 30 2004, 03:04 AM)
A fetus not a child? What is it then? A mass of blob floating along? It is a human being as soon as it is concieved, by rape or consent.

You're walking a fine line between morality and dogma with that statement. Dogma has been a tool to govern people in the past, and nothing good has ever come of it.

At the center of everything lies the question of whether you, as an individual, want the government dictating what you can or cannot do with your own body. And whether you like it or not, a fetus that cannot survive outside the womb IS part of your body. I personally do not think the government has that right.

It's up to your parents and [if it applies] your church to instill you with values. The government's role is to protect you in the event that you're wronged by someone else. If the government outlaws abortion, period, then it is flagrantly stepping outside its bounds, because it's neither protecting you, nor allowing you to choose what to do with your own body.


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Nov 29 2004, 08:17 PM
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'Reason' is defined as rational thought. This is something that even infants and toddlers posses rudimentary forms of. When they touch a sharp object and get hurt, they know immediately not to touch it again. That is reason in itself.


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Quistis88
post Nov 29 2004, 08:18 PM
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Darn it, Bacon, you're always one step ahead of me. tongue.gif Was just going to post something in those lines.

Also, the debate of whether or not you're killing an "innocent" being is questionable. Because the unborn child has not committed any acts of which we can judge, it is neither innocent nor guilty, therefore in performing abortion, you are essentially not killing an innocent being. sad.gif


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Bling_bling_Ange...
post Nov 29 2004, 10:00 PM
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Well fancy that... I go off to lunch and see what awaits me upon return.

Very well met, Bacon... it's true that the government must protect women in the event that the have been violated. I'd've said that then, the government should just make legal abortion for raped-cases, but then, I can see all women going to clinics saying they've been raped... tongue.gif ... how pathetic.

Araaaa~, Quisty-sempai... you've got me at a tight spot, there... as for guilty, or not guilty, a child who does not have the use of reason--probably 6-ish--is considered "innocent" regardless of what it does or does not do... same thing goes for a fetus...


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Nov 29 2004, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE(Bling_bling_Angel @ Nov 30 2004, 05:00 AM)
Very well met, Bacon... it's true that the government must protect women in the event that the have been violated. I'd've said that then, the government should just make legal abortion for raped-cases, but then, I can see all women going to clinics saying they've been raped...  tongue.gif ... how pathetic.

Sometimes you just have to trust people to exercise their best judgment and have a conscience. When a government operates on principles of bad faith, that's when authoritarian and totalitarian regimes arise. Nobody needs that.


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Quistis88
post Nov 29 2004, 10:06 PM
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QUOTE(What @ no bacon?,Nov 29 2004, 09:17 PM)
'Reason' is defined as rational thought. This is something that even infants and toddlers posses rudimentary forms of.

Unfortunately, The definition of "reason" that Bacon gave there is a little contradictory when placed beside:

QUOTE
a child who does not have the use of reason--probably 6-ish--is considered "innocent" regardless of what it does or does not do... same thing goes for a fetus...


I suppose in this manner, one takes the definition of "innocence" to a rather literal degree. And as I have mentioned before, if there are no acts to judge by, then it is neither innocent nor guilty. And a fetus cannot act in a manner which proves that it is rational, therefore, it is "not" a human being.

Poor babies. sad.gif


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Bling_bling_Ange...
post Nov 29 2004, 10:20 PM
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QUOTE(Quistis88 @ Nov 29 2004, 10:06 PM)

Poor babies.  sad.gif

sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif !!! Yeah... that's true... *smirks* But then, that brings about the rather nasty question again, Sempai... What of the mentally-handicapped? They cannot, in anyway, prove that they are rational... are they not humans?

However, I understand 100% your sides, both, Bacon and Quisty-sempai... you guys showed me abortion in a new light, both darker and lighter...

And, Bacon... you are right about trusting people...


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Quistis88
post Nov 29 2004, 10:27 PM
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QUOTE(Bling_bling_Angel @ Nov 29 2004, 11:20 PM)
What of the mentally-handicapped? They cannot, in anyway, prove that they are rational... are they not humans?

As of now, I do not have enough knowledge (or much brain power to think on tongue.gif ) concerning this question. But there are those who are handicapped and still possess rational thought, and most individuals who are handicapped can still understand what is being said to them, so on and so forth. The same with aging seniors who can no longer think coherently, but can still understand some things.


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Gashole
post Nov 29 2004, 11:05 PM
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This thread will be a good resource if I ever want to write a paper on abortion. ph34r.gif
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