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Riza Hawkeye Character Debate Thread (warning! Possible Manga/anime Spoilers Inside!), Her personal goals? Is she "dependant"?(mostly manga relate)
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Flamez_Freak
post Jun 6 2010, 12:49 AM
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Well , riza is one of the few main female characters (in shonen anime/manga) who have maintained them selves to have sound/kickass characteristics throughout the series .
The others just transformed , from loud mouthed , arrogant characters to emo craps . . That is why i like riza soooo much .


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saldon
post Jun 6 2010, 08:53 PM
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she is awesome
Reason for edit: Image removed, and in the future, please avoid spam such as this.


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Turdaewen
post Jun 6 2010, 09:42 PM
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I think people DO tend to misunderstand Riza quite a lot

Riza is definitely does not lack personality and "self thinking"

First of all, Riza NEVER said she hadn't a reason to live if Roy died. She said she would not have a reason to live if she failed her mission, which is to make sure Roy get to the top, but it's not because 'of Roy' in a strict sense, but because of all the story with the Flame Alchemy and her mission of making Amestris a democracy.

So, she's after the DREAM of making Amestris a peaceful country, not being able to "love Roy". She's a strongly idealistic woman, who giver up all her life for a propose.
It so happens that the man she's supposed to protect is the man she loves, but she doesn't do it because she loves him. And that scene is the very proof of that: If Riza couldn't "live without Roy" than why the hell would she kill him for? The only explanation is: their goal and their dream is more important!! In Riza's mind, Roy's dream (which is not actually only his, but it's her's and it's Hughes') is more important than ANYTHING, including Roy's life, including her own life.
She lives FOR that "Ideal Amestris" and she said it more than once why she does everything she does: "to sacrifice herself so that other people can live happily and peacefully".

For Riza, making Amestris safe is more important than ANYTHING in her life. That's what drives her and not her "attachment to Roy".


Most people read the 'I'll crush my back and destroy this body with the Flame Alchemy" as a 'romantic' line when in fact, it isn't. And if we pay attention to Riza throughout the manga, that gets pretty clear. Riza puts her duty (not as a Military and not as Roy's aidee, but as a "worker for an idea") before anything else and that makes her deeply independent and strong.

She's the kind of person that, if realized her feelings for Roy would get in the way of what they were doing in ANY sense, she would walk away.

Does that mean she doesn't love him? Not at all. If fact, I believe she loves more than most women characters I've seen. But not in "lovey-dovey" or even angsty the way people usually portray it. Even because, if she was so dependent of Roy, they would never go as far as they went.
Roy needs a truly strong woman to be beside him to work as a sort of 'conscience voice" and that's the reason why Riza is with him, not because "she's in love with him".

Arakawa is an author who always builds very complex and very strong women in several different senses and Riza is no exception... we just have to learn to "Read her the right way", or we'll be just like the Dr. Goldtooth and King Bradley, taking Roy and Riza's relationship for granted and ending up getting so scre**d up for it. XD


So, in short: Riza does what she does because they have a goal to achieve and not because "she can't live without him".


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heartwing713
post Jun 7 2010, 01:16 PM
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Turdaewen, I always love reading your posts. You have so much insight into FMA, especially Riza, and I find it really interesting to hear what you have to say.

I agree with what you're saying completely, you even managed to change my mind about some of the things I was saying before. I do think, though, that Riza does have a tendency to fall away from that idealism and lapse into putting all her dreams on Roy (for example in the Lust scene. She was definitely giving up there) What people tend to do when looking at Riza though (and I was doing this a little in my earlier post myself) is think of the Riza in the Lust scene and the Riza in the Envy scene as the same Riza (in terms of emotion) when in actuality, the Lust scene was a moment of weakness while the Envy scene was a moment of strength I think.


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Turdaewen
post Jun 7 2010, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (heartwing713 @ Jun 7 2010, 05:16 PM) *
Turdaewen, I always love reading your posts. You have so much insight into FMA, especially Riza, and I find it really interesting to hear what you have to say.

I agree with what you're saying completely, you even managed to change my mind about some of the things I was saying before. I do think, though, that Riza does have a tendency to fall away from that idealism and lapse into putting all her dreams on Roy (for example in the Lust scene. She was definitely giving up there) What people tend to do when looking at Riza though (and I was doing this a little in my earlier post myself) is think of the Riza in the Lust scene and the Riza in the Envy scene as the same Riza (in terms of emotion) when in actuality, the Lust scene was a moment of weakness while the Envy scene was a moment of strength I think.

Thanx! ^^

Yeah, of course! She's human, so she DOES has feelings and they can win over her mind every now and then. Being strong does not mean being rational all the time. I just don't think that that translates into a sort of dependent behavior of hers in regards to Roy. Although their characters are deeply connected to eachother, it's not like Riza 'only exists as a character' because of Roy.


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spectator
post Jun 12 2010, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (Amalthea @ Jun 5 2010, 12:17 AM) *
With Mustang's womanizing tendencies, I'm not sure he's even ready for a serious, long-lasting romantic relationship with one woman, but that's an entirely different topic.


Mustang's womanizing behavior is only a disguise on his ambition to be a Fuhrer. Think of it this way, to work hard blatantly for Bradley's seat would only be suicidal. Of course, the top brass would have consider Mustang as a threat. The way Mustang does his job (ie. procrastinating, womanizing) would divert the attention on him while he climbed his way up to where he is now.

From my observation, especially after watching Bleach, I notice that a lot of shounen manga have the tendency to put female characters as being passive and supportive, rather than being independent. The worst part is, many times you can see those female characters were 'saved' by men, rather than having a chance to help themselves.

Geez, it's 21st century already, and they still draw 'snow white' and 'cinderella' manga?

Sometimes, I feel very insulting, as a female. I guess those manga called 'shounen' for a reason.


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Hagaren_4ever
post Jun 12 2010, 05:25 PM
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^ This does happen a lot in shonen manga, I agree. But I think this just comes from a lack of understanding of the opposite sex. Most of the time it is males that write shonen manga, and I think that the reason FMA has its female characters as independent as they are is because Arakawa herself is female. I can usually tell if it was a man or a woman who wrote the manga, based on their understanding of the opposite sex. (A lot of women have pre-misconceptions about men, too, so it's often times easy to tell if a woman wrote it based on her male characters)

Riza, I think, is a little dependent on Roy, but not because she is a woman, because Roy is dependent on Riza too. They need each other mutually. And although I don't know much about Bleach, I'm sure that they probably have a more co-dependent relationship than a lot of other shonen series, where the woman needs the man, shows her emotions on her sleeve, and stays in the background while the man goes on the adventures. (i.e. Hinata and Naruto, first anime Ed and Winry)


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spectator
post Jun 13 2010, 07:07 AM
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Looks like we have a go from Tombow! biggrin.gif

Riza is an interesting character to study, I admit. (Sounds like an anthropologist)

From all her actions, she seems like she is too dependent on Roy. I think it is somewhat true. She has no family and who knows how she grew up with. Roy is kind of like her mental support. Everyone needs somebody to some extent. No one can live alone. Roy is her motivation. I think when he tellls her his goal, Riza finds it very noble, which is the possible reason she then enlisted.

Her dream shatters in Ishaval. After that event, the noble cause turns to atonement. Both of them are trying to redeem their mistakes. The journey is getting more difficult as Roy climbed his way to the Fuhrer's seat. This is also another possibility that both of them depend on each other more often than not. Working together for that long, feelings grow too, not nescessary for it to be romance.

I think Roy's goal is Riza's goal. The same goes to the rest of their team. Ishaval has changed them. They do not live for themselves anymore, but use their lives for humanity.

*Lights on* I finally understand Arakawa sensei's motive, after breaking this down. Sorry, can't talk much here. it's about chapter 108


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Turdaewen
post Jun 18 2010, 07:00 AM
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I guess it depends on what you understand by "dependency". (that was a GOOD line lol)

Usually, psychologically speaking, "dependency" is something far deeper and more... let us say 'negative'? than just having a deep connection or relationship with another person. Dependency is a form of needfulness, of emotional immaturity, of lack of autonomy.
Of course, Riza may depend on Roy in many ways, but then to say she's dependant of him is something far more complicated (and, in my view, a sort of mis-comprehension of her character).

People are not islands, so, therefore, they depend on others both physically and emotionally to be able to be healthy, "funtioning" and even happy. And the people who we are closer to have a bigger role in that sense than other people, OF COURSE. We all have attachments or we wouldn't be human. But that's far from saying we're dependent in one another, if you know what I mean. We need the others but, at the same time, being a healty, mature adult also means to have a great degree of autonomy, which Riza has!

She chooses what she wants to do or not. She doesn't do it FOR Roy: she does it for herself. She's influenced by the want of being around Roy, but she does is consciously, and not by a unconscious drive or something she cannot control/understand.
Her attachment to Roy is not bigger than what someone has with a very loved husband or child, or even friend. They may have a stronger bound than most 'families' do because of their history, but it's not something "beyond their better judgment", as some people put it.

Remembering once again the psychological meaning of dependency, it's usually applied to people who are addicted to drugs of some sort. It's beyond someone's willpower.

So, yeah, the way I see it, it's a little out of line to say Riza is dependent of Roy.

Maybe is the lack of a better word in English to differ "types" of attachment. And that may even affect the way we understand the concept of attachment. (like "Passion" and "Love")


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Misty- Nala
post Jul 21 2010, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE (FailToImpress @ Mar 7 2010, 11:29 PM) *
QUOTE (zonkiethegreat @ Feb 21 2010, 05:20 PM) *
I think Winry is an emotionally strong character, whereas Riza is the opposite. Riza is mostly strong physically, and a great sniper. However, when it comes to emotions, Riza hides them, and whenever someone provokes her, (like Lust implying to her that Mustang is dead) she breaks down and totally loses it. To me, as a woman, that is NOT a strong enough character.


Hm, you make a good point. I hadn't really thought of it like that before.


Good point. It's like Riza has comitted her life to Colonel (which she has). She has no personality, I don't find her interesting. Plus, I can't understand why everyone keep fearing/admiring her. At least in Fanfiction (remind me if this has also happened in manga or both animes), she keeps threatening people with a gun to get them to do paperwork. I have no idea where they got that information, someone please remind me, but it pisses me off. Of course it's natural to fear of being shot but I'm sure Riza wouldn't shoot anyone. She would be court martialed for harming a comrade or he CO.
All that bashing about her shooting skills always piss me off. It's like she is the only one who can aim and harm the target. Hello, basically everyone in the military can shoot, why praise Rize so much. I'm sure there people who can shoot just as well or better than she can. I'm sure Havoc is more talented than she is.

All in all, I think she is a soldier with no personality, and has only committed her life to following orders. She's a puppet.


<@Misty- Nala - I moved your post from Anti-Riza fanlisting thread since here others can join in on further discussions on your analysis of this character. But, if you did not intend to have such further discussions on this, I apologize and please let me know so that I can delete your post here, and then please feel free to repost on Anti-Riza fanlisting thread with your simple statement of your dislike of this character. ^^ ~ Tombow>


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Irena
post Jul 21 2010, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE (Misty- Nala @ Jul 21 2010, 08:05 AM) *
Good point. It's like Riza has comitted her life to Colonel (which she has). She has no personality, I don't find her interesting. Plus, I can't understand why everyone keep fearing/admiring her. At least in Fanfiction (remind me if this has also happened in manga or both animes), she keeps threatening people with a gun to get them to do paperwork. I have no idea where they got that information, someone please remind me, but it pisses me off. Of course it's natural to fear of being shot but I'm sure Riza wouldn't shoot anyone. She would be court martialed for harming a comrade or he CO.
All that bashing about her shooting skills always piss me off. It's like she is the only one who can aim and harm the target. Hello, basically everyone in the military can shoot, why praise Rize so much. I'm sure there people who can shoot just as well or better than she can. I'm sure Havoc is more talented than she is.

All in all, I think she is a soldier with no personality, and has only committed her life to following orders. She's a puppet.


The whole "rawr imma shoot you" thing is almost entirely fanon. A lot of people misinterpret Riza's character in that way. As for her skills with a gun, don't forget that she is a sniper, which requires a lot of specialized training.

I don't really see why following orders makes her a puppet. With that argument, you could say that Havoc, Falman, Breda, Fuery, Buccaneer, etc. are all puppets because they happen to follow their orders.
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Turdaewen
post Jul 22 2010, 07:48 AM
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QUOTE (Irena @ Jul 21 2010, 04:22 PM) *
QUOTE (Misty- Nala @ Jul 21 2010, 08:05 AM) *
Good point. It's like Riza has comitted her life to Colonel (which she has). She has no personality, I don't find her interesting. Plus, I can't understand why everyone keep fearing/admiring her. At least in Fanfiction (remind me if this has also happened in manga or both animes), she keeps threatening people with a gun to get them to do paperwork. I have no idea where they got that information, someone please remind me, but it pisses me off. Of course it's natural to fear of being shot but I'm sure Riza wouldn't shoot anyone. She would be court martialed for harming a comrade or he CO.
All that bashing about her shooting skills always piss me off. It's like she is the only one who can aim and harm the target. Hello, basically everyone in the military can shoot, why praise Rize so much. I'm sure there people who can shoot just as well or better than she can. I'm sure Havoc is more talented than she is.

All in all, I think she is a soldier with no personality, and has only committed her life to following orders. She's a puppet.


The whole "rawr imma shoot you" thing is almost entirely fanon. A lot of people misinterpret Riza's character in that way. As for her skills with a gun, don't forget that she is a sniper, which requires a lot of specialized training.

I don't really see why following orders makes her a puppet. With that argument, you could say that Havoc, Falman, Breda, Fuery, Buccaneer, etc. are all puppets because they happen to follow their orders.


Yeah... I can count with ONE hand the number of Fanfictions I've seen that portray Riza as she is and not some OOC character. That whole "shooting everything" also pisses me off, because that has NOTHING to do with Riza!!

As for her not being as strong a character as Winry, I don't think there's even a competition in that sense. They very different roles and situations during the story
Winry is not in the center of the action, she was never inside a fight, she was not in the Ishval Massacre, she has never shot a person in her life... her strength is in other direction: in being strong and patient for Ed and Al, for being their emotional support and everything.
And the fact that Riza breaks down at that particular scene that doesn't mean Riza is "weak emotionally". That would be senseless if you look at all the other difficult situations Riza faces in the series: Ishval, Hughes' death (after all, he was her friend, too), her parents death (just like Winry's), the whole situation with Envy... If she indeed was a character weak emotionally, she would never be able to face Mustang like that, to contradict him and, moreover, in the disposition of killing the only person who's like a family to her to prevent him of turning into a monster.
And Winry also has her moments: she breaks down and almost kills Scar when she discovers he killed her parents. If Riza was to be 'weak' because she lost it for Lust, than so would Winry, for loosing it to Scar.

So, measuring 'strength' through such situations makes no sense at all. Nor does comparing Winry's actions to Riza's.
Does it mean Winry is not a strong character, or that she's weaker than Riza? Not at all! It means they're diferent characters, with different experiences in life that makes them react and submit themselves to different situations.

As I've said before, "being strong" has nothing to do (in Riza's case) with being cold and distant or not having emotions. The strengh of Riza is not in not being desperate, feeling pain or guilt or anything of that sort, but in understanding that these feelings cannot stop her for doing what she has to: once the situation is over, she needs to pick herself up and continue with her mission.

I think it makes no sense to compare two women characters, one who's 16 years old and another one who's around 28 years old, has lived through an abandoned childhood and a War.
For me there shouldn't even be a competition between Winry and Riza, because they're both immensely interesting, strong characters, with similarities and differences and identifying yourself with one or another is a mere question of your own experience in life, and not if the character is strong or not. In fact, I don't think there's ONE woman in Arakawa's work who's not a strong woman.

Quite the contrary: I see a lot of similarities and a sort of complicity between Riza and Winry (even showed in that "Simple People" Gaiden) that they see themselves in the other: Riza sees herself in Winry, and Winry sees herself in Riza: they're are both orphans from a early age, both living with the men they loved as they grew, both of them having to face difficult times in their childhoods... Riza wants Winry to not go through all the hardship she had to go through...
I see the same as relationship between Ed and Roy, though Roy and Ed show that in their own way, being brats to eachother, while Riza and Winry, being women and, lets face it, not prone to such silliness, friendly to eachother.

And confrontation between Riza and Winry are fan-based and consequence of a senseless competition on "who's better" (the same with Ed and Roy, or EdWin and Royai... ¬¬')


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Sannom
post Jul 25 2010, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE (Amalthea @ Jun 4 2010, 11:17 PM) *
Come to think of it, Riza shares a lot of similarities (strengths and weaknesses) with Lanfan. Much more than Winry, for sure.


This has lead me to "categorize" the main female characters of the manga, in fact.
On one hand you have the "bodyguard" category, women whose primary characteristic is their unfettering loyalty to a man and his goals, and who have taken upon herselves to protect that man so that he can reach his objectives. They do it because they believe in those goals and want to see them achieved, even if it means "forgetting" all the rest, including their own aspirations and ambitions. In that category, you have Riza and Ran Fan.
On the other hand, you have the "mother" category. They are independent, strong willed, with ambitions and dreams of their own, really protective of the people they love, and they will never hesitate to get into a leading position. And as the name of the category indicates, they often have something that reminds of "mothers" kind of character : Winry and Izumi have the regular set of skills of a housewife beside their main trade, Olivia is a mother to her men, etc.
The only one that seems to fit in neither is Paninya huh.gif I should probably create a "tomboy" category only for her tongue.gif
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Ayla
post Aug 6 2010, 03:41 PM
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After reading through this really intersting thread, I decided to give my opinion as well^^

I think Riza is a very strong and individual character. She has the same wish that Roy has and that is for Amestris to become a peaceful country. She didn't get that wish just after the war...-no she had it from the beginning. I think it may have been influenced by her fathers hatred against the military...and that Amestris is a country leading many wars is no secret.

She could just never put her wish into words. That was Roy. He put her wish into words and that's exactly why she follows him. Because she knows he shares the same dream. Plus, he has the means to do it. And she decided to support him on his way to become Fuhrer- because she knows all that and because she doesn't WANT to be on top.

Her desire to protect Roy and make sure he doesn't stray from the path he's set out to walk is both because she feels like it's her duty, her responsibility as the one who gave him the secret to Flame Alchemy and also because she loves him. It's not that she can't live without him, it's that her goal would have been unachievable without Roy- as is his goal without her support. They both need each other- as partners in every sense. But they're both strong individuals in their own way.
She reprimands him when needed, she shows him the right path whenever he looses sight of it- not only because she loves him and wouldn't want him to do something he regrets, wouldn't want him to destroy THEIR dream, but also because it was her who gave him the Flame Alchemy.

The scene where she pointed her gun at him only prooves that fact. She isn't dependant on Roy, she SUPPORTS him. If she had just let Roy have his way in his rage, then he'd have lost the ability to become Fuhrer. Oh yes, he still could have become the Fuhrer, but he wouldn't have been the Fuhrer Amestris needs in order to gain peace and remain peaceful.

And she shoves away her own feelings in order to achieve her dream, THEIR dream. She can't let herself get distracted by love and she knows that. By keeping Roy in check she shows how much she cares. By keeping her distance and not giving in to her feelings, she ensures that they won't get in the way of her goal.

There are moments of "weaknesses", like that scene with Lust.

Agh, sorry for my ranting sad.gif
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Amalthea
post Aug 7 2010, 08:06 PM
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Wow, Ayla. Sounds like you really hit the nail on the head assessing Riza's character

I wondered a lot about the scene with Riza pointing her gun at Roy's head, but then going around and saying she has no desire to live a happy life alone. This is part of the reason I thought she might be dependent.

I have a new way of looking at it though. With Roy gone, the dream the two shared together would be gone as well. Riza knows she cannot accomplish such a task on her own.

So it isn't just Roy who she is protecting, but the goal to bring about peace to Amestris as well. If she had stayed in the army after Ishabl just for Roy, I would have a problem with that. But she knows with her abilities that is the best way to bring about the change to the country.

And yes, Riza does probably still have identity and indivudality issues. This can from many results, such as growing up alone with her distant father, to the tattoo on her back, to Ishbal war and from changing so much as a person since she was a teenager.


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