HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Episode 59: Lost Light - Content Discussion Thread, Warning, possible spoilers for the first 59 episodes
Chiyo
post May 29 2010, 10:51 AM
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Talk-back/content discussion for English dubbed episode on Adult Swim starts on page 4. smile.gif


Please post the discussions on the content of episode 59 here.
This thread is declared as a Spoiler zone for the content of the first 59 episodes.

Please don't ask for links on where to watch this episode, raw or subbed. Discussions on 'where to watch' belong in Where/How to Watch FMA Series 2. Don't post screencaps unless highlighting something important about the content of the episode. Just like on in most area's of the board, avoid one line posts, spam of any kind or conversations between two members.

Screenshots: please see amestris_star's post.

Summary: Roy ultimately refuses to perform a human transmutation, disappointing the gold-toothed doctor. One of the chimera disables the doctor as May arrives and helps take on the Fuhrer candidates. Roy, Scar, and May fight the Fuhrer candidates, and Roy makes it to Riza. May spots the liquid vial of Philosopher's Stone the doctor dropped, but decides to help Riza instead, using retanjutsu to stop her bleeding. Fuhrer King Bradley arrives, having swam through a drainpipe after falling into the moat. Then Pride arrives. Wrath springs into action, using his swords to nail Roy down into the doctor's alchemy array. Pride uses the gold-toothed doctor and the alchemy circle to force Roy to be a sacrifice. May notices that the source of the weirdness she's been sensing is beneath them, and Scar uses his arm to create a hole. Roy is sent through the Gate and ends up in Father's lair, where Ed discovers his sight has been taken from him. Above, Scar engages in combat with Wrath. May decends to Father's lair and notices that Alphonse hasn't regained consciousness. At the Gate, Alphonse meets his human body, but is dismayed at how malnourished it is. He decides to return without his body, but promises to return. In Father's lair, Alphonse regains consciousness. Father is happy that he has all five sacrifices now. - © Penguintruth, taken with permission from his blog.


*WARNING*

Please follow these simple rules;

-Do not spam.
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Spam means one line posts that contain little content. "OMG that ep was so cool" would be an example of spam. If you enjoyed the episode please specify what you enjoyed so much, was there anything you didn't like?

Spoilers mean anything you know will happen in upcoming episodes. Not everybody reads the manga and you may reveal something they didn't know. For future episode discussion, please go to the relevant topic. If you are unsure how to use spoiler tags, please ask.

Going off topic means discussing a characters actions outside of the episode, or talking about the artwork, or upcoming episodes etc. I know this can happen easily so don't be upset if I move your posts or guide you in the right direction. Double check the forum for the right place to take your post, or if required, start a new topic.

Everybody can voice their opinion, and nobody is correct just as nobody is incorrect. Because none of you will spam (right?) people will justify why they didn't like something. You are welcome to say "well I like that part because..." but you CAN NOT say "no you are wrong because..."


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Michiyo-
post May 30 2010, 01:40 AM
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- Shocked Dr Goldtooth is shocked.
- Here comes the rescue team!
- Some scenes were changed, but I don't mind.
- Roy is so desperate.
- The HUG <333
- Royai moments. <3
- Oh no, Bradley is here.
- I love that Roy and Riza are still holding onto each other. <3
- Poor Roy. I hate Wrath and Pride.
- Wow, cool eyecatch.
- Excellent voice acting.
- And hereís the Gate.
- Roy T_T
- The Wrath vs. Scar fight starts. And thereís new music.
- And Al finally meets his body. Al, youíre such a selfless boy.
- Spoilerish preview.
Iím very happy about the Royai moments, but very sad about what happened to Roy. But I hope that everything will be alright at the end. smile.gif


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Gimpyhair
post May 30 2010, 01:42 AM
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- I loved most of royai scenes: Riza's voice actor was really good, my heart breaked each time she was saying Taisa

- I wish I could say more about Mei's entrance, but yeah, keyhole had some problem with it.

- The DariusxHawkeye eyecatch: epically strange, yet badass!

- The blindRoy scene was lame: it lacked of emotion, or maybe it's because of keyhole, I'm not sure. Also, they didn't show Ed searching for "lost limbs" http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/102/019/ Too bad, I find this joke funny.

- The Al scene was really well done, I really thought he would get his body back, even if I read the manga!


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penguintruth
post May 30 2010, 01:44 AM
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My initial thoughts:

- A cliffhanger in FMA not paying off? HUGE SHOCK.
- Gotta love the way that little glass container of Philosopher's Stone bounces around
- Bradley is the all-time endurance champion
- Oh hey, let's stand around talking to each other!
- Heeeeeereeeee's Selim! I mean, Pride!
- How does Wrath and Pride just know how to do that right away?
- Yeah, because it totally makes sense that you can FORCE a human transmutation.
- Roy sees what you did there, Father... OH WAIT.
- All right, we get it, you're all angry and useless.
- Scar vs Bradley time!
- Al, give your body a break. Poor thing's been waiting around forever, it's not his fault he's all skin and bones.

Ah, next week a certain thing is put into motion!


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amestris_star
post May 30 2010, 02:55 AM
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http://randomc.net/2010/05/30/fullmetal-al...brotherhood-59/

Random Curiosity screenshots are up smile.gif


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Bag of Magic Foo...
post May 30 2010, 02:58 AM
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QUOTE (penguintruth @ May 30 2010, 03:44 AM) *
A cliffhanger in FMA not paying off? HUGE SHOCK.

Hah, I like how the English dub is now in the part of the series where the cliffhangers really do pay off. Or at least, I think they do. Maybe you have a better understanding of narrative or whatever and can explain this better.
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Claudius
post May 30 2010, 03:32 AM
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QUOTE (Bag of Magic Food @ May 30 2010, 01:58 AM) *
QUOTE (penguintruth @ May 30 2010, 03:44 AM) *
A cliffhanger in FMA not paying off? HUGE SHOCK.

Hah, I like how the English dub is now in the part of the series where the cliffhangers really do pay off. Or at least, I think they do. Maybe you have a better understanding of narrative or whatever and can explain this better.
The Anime1 handled the cliffhangers better IMO. They had shock as well as change. OH NO! Al is turned into a bomb! ()He becomes a PS, which is probably worse). OH NO! Envy kills Edward! (Al restores him to life, at the cost of his existence, and Edward will always have the trauma of being dead). Arakawa seems to be pulling her punches, giving shock and then restoring things back to normal.

OH PLEASE NO GLARE OF DEATH IN THE ADAPTATION! Please give us some indication that Roy can think for himself and do the right decision without Riza ALWAYS holding his hand!
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deet-tastic
post May 30 2010, 08:13 AM
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Been waiting for this episode for forever. biggrin.gif
My thoughts were all over the place on it. One second I love bones, the next I hate them, the next I love them again.

-HUG biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Good! Otherwise I would have flown to Japan and burned the production studio to the ground! Don't mess with a royai fan!
-Wrath, I love you. XD Stop being awesome! (don't really!)
-OoooohH!!! YEA! Selim! Pride makes his super awesome Entrance! Manga panels for the win!
-BAMF EYECATCH OF HAWKEYE AND DARIUS! OMG THAT IS AWESOME! AND SCAR GETS ONE TOO! WHOOHOO!!
-YESSSSSSSSSSS AND THERE'S THE SCREAM! YOU'RE GONE MUSTANG! HAHAHAHAH!!
- i hate you bones. Your stupid studio left out my all time favorite manga panel of Bradley. I hate you.
-Man.. Bones didn't play up the "OH CRAP" factor much, did they? I find their lack of emotion.. lacking. Oh well. I love the way they animated Mustangs Eyes though.
-They kept in Fathers "Truth is cruel" speech though! WHOO-HOO!
-NEW MUSIC WITH SCAR VS BRADLEY HECK YES! I LOVE YOU WRATH!! I LOVE YOU SCAR!!
-And Alphonse the selfless sweet-heart puts the needs of others before his own. Oh Al, you're such a sweet-heart!

I'm mad they left this out, the bottom one.
http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/102/010/
That's my favorite manga panel of Bradley. When I first read the chapter back in December, I actually stopped and saved it to my computer. It was screaming "BAD A" So I'm very angry with Bones.

The mustang thing was lacking emotion to me. It could be because I was watching raw and have no subs. But it just didn't feel as powerfull as the manga. It could also be this way because I knew what was coming.

Al's body was animated differently than how it was in 26. That's alright though. It's been months since then and his body is getting older. That could be the change.
I loved how trippy Al's voice was being used for two different people though. Haha! It was cool.

EDIT
Just remembered. They censored Mustang stabbing a candidate in the neck. Instead, he cut the guys leg. That made me mad too.


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TheSentinel
post May 30 2010, 08:46 AM
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QUOTE (deet-tastic @ May 30 2010, 11:13 AM) *
- i hate you bones. Your stupid studio left out my all time favorite manga panel of Bradley. I hate you.

I'm mad they left this out, the bottom one.
http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/102/010/
That's my favorite manga panel of Bradley. When I first read the chapter back in December, I actually stopped and saved it to my computer. It was screaming "BAD A" So I'm very angry with Bones.


They animated the scene from the front as opposed the the back (the way the manga did it). Can't wait for the SUB to get the dialogue. From the manga I always did like Wrath's 'humans not doing what I expect makes me angry' while smiling was a great line.

My own personal favorite Wrath panel is http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/30/19/


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EveningAlchemist
post May 30 2010, 08:52 AM
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Longer post, awesome episode. ohmy.gif

This episode oozed Royai! Although we all know about the hug and stuff, my favourite part of all that was the little squeeze Roy gave Riza when Bradley walked in.
Roy's scream when the transmutation was activated was pretty bone-chilling! Being forced to do alchemy doesn't sound too fun... Hawkeye's calls after him are nice too, and I bet she feels very helpless and that hurts her.
I felt Roy's terror when he turned to see the gate. When you're viewing this, you know what's coming, so you feel for Roy! The gate is not a place I'd like to vacation... I still felt the shock like in the manga, mostly due to the deep chanting music in the background. It was diluted because I knew what was coming, but seeing Roy's faded eyes made my heart lurch!

And I love that despite all Bradley's injuries, he still makes everyone tense. I really liked the creepy/intense music that was played when Pride showed himself. And is that new music I hear during the Scar/Bradley brawl? Sounds epic! biggrin.gif

Once again, you know something's wrong with Al when he gets animated all nice and shiny! New music here too? It's very beautiful and melancholy. I wanted to cry more in Al's gate scene then Mustang's! I loved how the rustle of Al's truth's hair added a new element of animation that couldn't be expressed in the manga. Did they not show Al's truth's scary face when he predicted doom? Oh well...


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deet-tastic
post May 30 2010, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE (TheSentinel @ May 30 2010, 09:46 AM) *
QUOTE (deet-tastic @ May 30 2010, 11:13 AM) *
- i hate you bones. Your stupid studio left out my all time favorite manga panel of Bradley. I hate you.

I'm mad they left this out, the bottom one.
http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/102/010/
That's my favorite manga panel of Bradley. When I first read the chapter back in December, I actually stopped and saved it to my computer. It was screaming "BAD A" So I'm very angry with Bones.
tongue.gif

They animated the scene from the front as opposed the the back (the way the manga did it). Can't wait for the SUB to get the dialogue. From the manga I always did like Wrath's 'humans not doing what I expect makes me angry' while smiling was a great line.

My own personal favorite Wrath panel is http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/30/19/


Nah, in the manga he has the swords above his head, but here they were in front of him. And I like that camera angle on his back, rather than his front. That's what made it as epic as it was to me.


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His Name is Unkn...
post May 30 2010, 12:42 PM
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Wrath fan here:

Really, almost everything about FMA episode 59 is irrelevant to me: Roy's blindness...eh. Hawkeye drama...deus ex machina. Father....how many eyes does he have again?...

Start talking about Scar versus Wrath, though, and you have my undivided attention. To me, this showdown represents the clash of some of the strongest themes in FMA - the interplay of religion, spirituality, and atheism and their relationship to the notion of equivalent exchange.

The Ishvalan extermination, with all of its parallels to the Holocaust and persecution of the Jewish people during WWII and throughout history, works marvelously (well, for me anyway ^^) as a meta-narrative to bind the various character interactions and plot developments together and to create a comprehensive backdrop for the drama of the Promised Day. Indeed, the interplay of two conflicting visions - the refined 'abiding' of Scar's muted vengeance and the overwhelming fury of Wrath - is the personification of many core elements of the Fullmetal story.

The death of Winry's parents, the quest for immortality, the collision of spirituality and science, Hughe's death, the Elric's suffering, the conspiracy in the military...all of these issues come back to that horrific War in Ishval and Bradley's presidential order to annihilate the believers of Ishvala. Whenever I think of this final showdown, I'm struck by how well the spiritual aspect of FMA is handled. Again and again, Ed proclaims his agnosticism, maintaining that comfortable skeptic's distance, yet when the situation really gets desperate, many characters are willing, albeit reluctantly, to consider the existence of God. One of my all time favorite moments in the manga is Wrath's bloodcurdling assault on Scar's faith as he screams: "Surely the horrors of that bloody conflict sowed the seeds of doubt in your own mind. THERE IS NO GOD!" It is an emotion which any person who struggles with reconciling the horrors of this world with the notion of an all powerful God has experienced. And yet, it is in that very moment that the sun peeks out from behind the darkness of the eclipse, blinding Bradley and giving Scar his chance.

Despite the Elrics denouncing Scar's claim to be an agent of God's judgment as an excuse for petty revenge, the overarching narrative does seem to hint that Scar may, in fact, an instrument of change from a higher power. Through this 'bloody discharge' of the conflict in Ishval, we see the representation of one who accepts both the importance of spirituality and the powerful potential of science to do good. Destruction and creation, they are the laws of the fma universe and the foundation of this fight. And of course, it is only too appropriate that Ishvalans, upon whom Wrath propounded his merciless atheism, would be the ones to ultimately remove him from his throne. Really, I don't think Wrath would have it any other way....a battle to the death between two nameless warriors...I LIKE IT!

...as you can see, I have a vested interest in how this showdown is handled, and from the looks of things, this fight has the potential to be the best beat down in FMA2. The new music - a stunning, full bodied orchestral rendition of the main theme - sent a chill down my spine; the stage has been set for a truly monumental clash of wills and I can only pray that episode 60 and 61 do not disappoint.
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deet-tastic
post May 30 2010, 01:23 PM
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^everything you just said. biggrin.gif


Wrath was animated so fluidely in the short moments it showed him fighting Scar. I hope Bones makes it even better than the manga. And I'm so excited to see it all unfold.


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His Name is Unkn...
post May 30 2010, 02:33 PM
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QUOTE (penguintruth @ May 30 2010, 04:44 AM) *
My initial thoughts:

- A cliffhanger in FMA not paying off? HUGE SHOCK.
- Gotta love the way that little glass container of Philosopher's Stone bounces around


You honestly don't see the sacrifice of Mustang's sight as a cliff-hanger paying off? If anything, this episode demonstrates to me that keeping true to your principles does not always ensure a happy ending. Sure, Mustang refused the transmutation, and for a moment it appeared that Hawkeye would be rescued with no consequence, but his nobility was not without consequence.

Much as Ed's conviction to not kill nearly cost him his life (and in fact, reduced his own lifespan), Mustang's conflict to maintain his pyramid scheme came back to haunt him. He was forced to do the transmutation against his will and as punishment was consigned to a life of darkness.

That's pretty severe; to me, this is not Arakawa 'pulling punches;' I mean, sure, she could have made the repercussions more severe (read, Hawkeye's death), but who's to say there will not be consequences even if Roy does succeed (as alluded to by Riza during her retelling of the Ishvalan war)? The cliff-hanger was left on Roy's decision to do human transmutation; the result was that he was forced to commit the act whether he decided to nor. That's pretty messed up, or as Ed put it, unfair, not to mention mentally traumatic for Mustang.

I'm not arguing against you 100% here - if you read my previous post you'll see I view Hawkeye's insta-rescue by Mei Chan as a bit of a deus ex machina (I mean, it makes sense in a way, but I feel it does cheapen the drama a bit):

Having said that, I think it's a bit unfair to say this cliff hanger didn't pay off. Just because a cliff hanger doesn't lead to even more angst or death doesn't mean it's a letdown. Take the Hohenheim soul tornado episode. That was a huge cliff-hanger, and the reversal not only made sense, it also gave context and depth to just how important Hohenheim's absence from Trisha and the boys really was. It was not just a noble fight against Father which motivated him, but a desire to save his wife and sons (and all of Armestris) from being consumed in an agony of whirling souls. Not only does this knowledge strengthen Hohenheim as a hero, but it also makes sense in light of his own trauma in Xerxes, and serves as vindication for his earlier naivete to predict and prevent the dwarf in the flasks diabolical schemes. Sure it's a narrative undo in certain respects, but it also serves as dramatic character development.

Take Claudius' opinion that anime1 handled cliff-hangers more effectively as a counter-point to my argument. In his own words: "They had shock as well as change." I would agree with this, only disputing the implication that Arakawa's twists lack change...they possess just as much change as, say, Al's bomb/philosopher's stone switch, just not on a physical level. Restraint of bloodlust does not equate to lack of change. The change is simply internalized, or to put it another way, the characters are developed.

Even with this distinction, some may view this kind of twist as expected and insufficient. I respect that, while still asserting that the real power of the manga over the anime (to me) derives from Arakawa's overall character development. Some things are cliche, but the author's ability - ultimately - to turn the expected into the unexpected while also illuminating character's internal conflicts and producing real character change is what makes FMA exceptional. Roy had to refuse, in a way, because it was essential for Bradley's character to have that moment when he was genuinely surprised that Mustang would not commit human transmutation for someone he loved. This shocked the homunculus, giving him new perspective, and even respect, for the 'foolish struggle' of the humans he opposed. That one moment where the Fuhrer looks up and actually smiles as he says: "When you humans don't do as expected, it really makes me mad," is a perfect representation of both his homunculus and human tendencies, and is itself and unexpected response. Thus, both characters are enriched (the change) while still maintaining the original shock value of the cliff hanger (Mustang does human transmutation, and loses his eyesight in the bargain). Indeed, the fact that someone could be 'judged' by the truth for an act he did not commit willingly is itself another plot point which is sure to factor into Ed's ultimate confrontation with the Truth and possibly in the explanation of what Father is and why he seeks to establish his own Law of the universe.

Looking forward to your response. It makes for a much richer discussion when people honestly voice their opinions and disagreements biggrin.gif

Oh, and about that philosopher's stone bouncing around - I always thought of it as a reference to The Temple of Doom gag where Indiana Jones is desperately trying to get his hands on the antidote for his poison as the nightclub erupts into fighting. Arakawa strikes me as the type who would enjoy Indy humor. laugh.gif
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penguintruth
post May 30 2010, 03:16 PM
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My point about it not paying off, much in the way we got a big array activation that led to just some people being teleported, is that the cliffhanger of the previous episode being that Roy seems to agree to do a human transmutation. And then in the beginning of this episode he goes, "LOL, actually no, I agreed NOT to. Sorry." And that's the payoff.

They might as well had him do that before the end of the last episode (which would work, since they dragged that scene out) and had the end of that episode be triumphant by having the gold-toothed doctor lifted up by whatshisface's goo. Instead we get, "LOL, just kidding, guys." It would be one thing if he agreed to it, then at the last minute struck out at the gold-toothed doctor as the chimera arrived, but we just get the payoff of the doctor's disappointment.

Now, as for the long-term payoff within the episode, fine, I see your point, but then there was no real purpose of making a big fuss out of that one action at the end of the previous episode. It confuses me as a viewer that I think I'm going to get this big punch payoff and then I get a more natural one. They shouldn't have set up the big punch to begin with if that's the case, because it seems cheap.

The cliffhanger device is a force that has to be met with equal force if it is to work.


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