HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Chapter 103 "Regular" Discussion Thread For First Time Readers (and Others), No future chapter spoilers here, please. :)
Jealous Rogo
post Jan 11 2010, 02:55 PM
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Hmmm... I'm beginning to wonder how permenant Mustang's blindness will be. It's been established several times that the Truth is cruel but it's also fair. Ed points out that Mustang's situation is completely unfair on him because he didn't commit a sin. The fact that Mustang still has his eyes makes me wonder. All other losses have been physical up til now, and teh Blind Alchemist lost his actual eyes so why didn't Mustang? I think Mustang's blindness might be temporary but then again that's just grasping at straws. I think Pride has lost the most though, he seems to have no only lost his powers but also his ability to regenerate, but there must be something more to it. Like Ed said, why didn't they just force the first five people they found. Father had seven homunculus he could use.

*points to the 'Father loves his children really' theory*


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jacksparrow589
post Jan 11 2010, 03:58 PM
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^Just playing devil's advocate, here, but perhaps Roy losing his sight but not his eyes was letting him off lightly. We don't know if, say, his optic nerve was severed or something like that. (I have next to no medical knowledge, though, so don't quote me on what would or would not work.) Then again, losing your sight but still having your eyes is pretty cruel, too, although there's more hope for correction if all the pieces are there.

But I really do agree more with those who say that it's not fair, since Roy didn't actually willfully do anything. I was glad to see Ed articulate that, too.


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Disasterpiece
post Jan 11 2010, 05:21 PM
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perhaps when they take out Father, his eyesight will return


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Katya Martin
post Jan 11 2010, 05:56 PM
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QUOTE
We don't know if, say, his optic nerve was severed or something like that


Well, it seems like his irises and pupils are gone, covered up, or replaced with useless matter. This suggests that something freaky and not readily correctable has been done to his eyes (not just a matter of severed nerves or what have you). It's a weird case because rather than being stolen, his eyes have basically just been converted to useless, something that any sufficiently inventive, malicious human alchemist could manage. I don't think this has any bearing on the permanence or significance of his condition; it just strikes me as weird, because everything else Truth has done has only taken things away.

I don't know that Father's defeat itself will get anyone their toll back. I do think Truth is closely connected to father, though. Defeating Father may provide a way for them all to go, punch Truth in the face, and take back what's theirs. I just don't think getting rid of Father will immediately result in "Ding! You got an arm/leg/body/guts/vision!"


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jacksparrow589
post Jan 11 2010, 06:24 PM
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^This is true, but I just sort of chalked that up to visual representation. (Like, maybe his eyes are clouded over, but that's still pretty serious.) Then again, Arakawa's pretty accurate and deliberate about that sort of thing, so... I don't know. The idea that Roy's sight was a sort of lesser punishment was my initial reaction to reading Jealous Rogo's post.


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SneakyRuler
post Jan 12 2010, 04:11 AM
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Oh my! Ishbalans ran incidentally into Denny's home! (or at least the woman looks a lot like Denny's sister to me so the children could be the ones which wanted to watch the eclipse with binoculars)

And somehow I feel happy for Bradley. He was awesome the last few chapters (not that I agree that he killed old Fuu and Buccaneer) so he deserves to experience more human emotions than just wrath. Not saying joy of fighting is the right thing feeling to have but of it brings him fulfillment... he's a good villain and I like him (now I'm sure he dies)
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Black Mask
post Jan 12 2010, 04:24 AM
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There are a couple of things which I noticed to be important in this chapter.

First of all, not only Pride lost his powers but also did Wrath.

Wrath on himelf is an already extreme fighter so many didn`t noticed but in my view his eye that predicts everything is gone.

The moment Scar gets past behind him and gives him an elbow blow indicates that he can`t either keep pace with his eye because of injuries or that the eye is not working anymore (the flow of blow and the fact he doesn`t open it seems to imply this).

Also as to the fairness of Mustangs eyesight it`debatable but what can`t be denied is that an endless flow of hand generated alchemy flames is far to overpowered to make the final battle interesting.

I mean Mustang can now probably invoke flames in the same way Ed, Al, Ho and Izumi does their alchemy and by making him blind the downside of the upgrade is that the good guys while now having an unlimited ammo bazooka man he is blindfold and has to be guided where to shoot.

May fighting father is something I foresaw, she is the only one besides Ho whose alchemy is not affected by father and while I know she wouldn`t stand a chance against the big bad moffo I thought she would make a stand.

Also for her to give up her search for immortality and go after Al for real (I ship`em so what?) there need to be some relization from her part somehow that her goal is not a good one.

By the way Scar`s other arm was something I was expecting already but the mot important thing is that it will probably play a huge part in defeating father as peer you can see the Ishbalans are installing some sort of counter to whatever father is up to and Scar has a huge importance in the Ishi plan.

For the chapter itself it was a decent one, some say it felt short of the quality present in past chapters but the truth is that you can`t ask for the author to keep the instensity at maximum for like forever. We are on holidays so if Arakawa wants to work on a slower pace we must understand.
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Sannom
post Jan 12 2010, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE (SneakyRuler @ Jan 12 2010, 05:11 AM) *
Oh my! Ishbalans ran incidentally into Denny's home! (or at least the woman looks a lot like Denny's sister to me so the children could be the ones which wanted to watch the eclipse with binoculars)


There were at least five people in Denny's home, plus him, so I think we would have seen more people if they were in Denny's house tongue.gif

QUOTE (Black Mask @ Jan 12 2010, 05:24 AM) *
There are a couple of things which I noticed to be important in this chapter.

First of all, not only Pride lost his powers but also did Wrath.

Wrath on himelf is an already extreme fighter so many didn`t noticed but in my view his eye that predicts everything is gone.

The moment Scar gets past behind him and gives him an elbow blow indicates that he can`t either keep pace with his eye because of injuries or that the eye is not working anymore (the flow of blow and the fact he doesn`t open it seems to imply this).


I'm still not sure Wrath had a power linked to his eyes, and if he did, it's pretty likely that he had it in both his eyes. Never did the eye-patch seem to hinder him that much, after all. For me, his power was merely the fact that he was designed as a super-human, with heightened strength, speed, reflexes, stamina and senses (especially his sight). Combined with his training of hell, it resulted into the monster we've all seen at work throughout the most awesome fights of the manga.

The reason Scar has an easier time and can actually hit him is because Scar is himself one of the fastest and best-trained fighter in the series, but most importantly because Bradley is heavily injured. If it wasn't for Bradley's current state, he would have sliced Scar open after the latter was cut on the two shoulders : Scar was lucky that Bradley stopped in his tracks at that moment because of the pain and blood loss.

QUOTE (Black Mask @ Jan 12 2010, 05:24 AM) *
Also for her to give up her search for immortality and go after Al for real (I ship`em so what?) there need to be some relization from her part somehow that her goal is not a good one.


The one who has to come to the realization that his goal is not a good one is Lin, not May. The latter has always shown to be reluctant to bring back secrets that could bring the Emperor to commit mass murder in order to get immortality. May has responsibilities toward her clan and family, and she won't leave her quest so easily.
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Katya Martin
post Jan 12 2010, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 12 2010, 12:47 PM) *
I'm still not sure Wrath had a power linked to his eyes, and if he did, it's pretty likely that he had it in both his eyes. Never did the eye-patch seem to hinder him that much, after all. For me, his power was merely the fact that he was designed as a super-human, with heightened strength, speed, reflexes, stamina and senses (especially his sight). Combined with his training of hell, it resulted into the monster we've all seen at work throughout the most awesome fights of the manga.


I'm pretty sure it's been explicitly stated that Bradley's ouroboros eye had the power to see possible outcomes of a situation. It did make him more dangerous, because he could predict his opponent's moves with absolute accuracy. He's still extremely dangerous without it, though.



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Ropespinner
post Jan 12 2010, 12:19 PM
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QUOTE (Katya Martin @ Jan 12 2010, 09:00 PM) *
I'm pretty sure it's been explicitly stated that Bradley's ouroboros eye had the power to see possible outcomes of a situation.

And I'm pretty sure that this was first anime only information. In the manga, Wrath just seems to have a really, really, really good eyesight and quick reflexes (andmost likely some extra strength and durability).


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Sannom
post Jan 12 2010, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (Katya Martin @ Jan 12 2010, 01:00 PM) *
I'm pretty sure it's been explicitly stated that Bradley's ouroboros eye had the power to see possible outcomes of a situation. It did make him more dangerous, because he could predict his opponent's moves with absolute accuracy. He's still extremely dangerous without it, though.


Nope, Wrath's Homonculus' powers have never been explicitely stated. Its probably that his eyesight is brought even higher than his other physical abilities, but we can't say for sure.

QUOTE (Ropespinner @ Jan 12 2010, 01:19 PM) *
QUOTE (Katya Martin @ Jan 12 2010, 09:00 PM) *
I'm pretty sure it's been explicitly stated that Bradley's ouroboros eye had the power to see possible outcomes of a situation.

And I'm pretty sure that this was first anime only information. In the manga, Wrath just seems to have a really, really, really good eyesight and quick reflexes (andmost likely some extra strength and durability).


"Most likely" laugh.gif The guy can cut a tank's parts made of metal and actually brought a wall down by kicking it, so yeah I'm confident that he has enhanced strength tongue.gif As for his durability, he's right now fighting with a lood loss that would have put any other character unconscious, so yeah I do think he is pretty durable.
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Yoki sama
post Jan 12 2010, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE (Ropespinner @ Jan 12 2010, 01:19 PM) *
QUOTE (Katya Martin @ Jan 12 2010, 09:00 PM) *
I'm pretty sure it's been explicitly stated that Bradley's ouroboros eye had the power to see possible outcomes of a situation.

And I'm pretty sure that this was first anime only information. In the manga, Wrath just seems to have a really, really, really good eyesight and quick reflexes (andmost likely some extra strength and durability).



I also think Wrath cannot predict all the outcomes of a situation" he is rather able to see all the movements of his enemy. If wrath had superhuman prediction powers he could have predicted the attack of Buccaneer and would never been stabbed to begin with. As he does can not regenete like the other hominculi, hes becoming weaker form the loss of blood and that's why he probablye saw Scar's attack but wasn't fast enough to stop it.
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FailToImpress
post Jan 12 2010, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE (Katya Martin @ Jan 12 2010, 12:56 AM) *
Well, it seems like his irises and pupils are gone, covered up, or replaced with useless matter. This suggests that something freaky and not readily correctable has been done to his eyes (not just a matter of severed nerves or what have you). It's a weird case because rather than being stolen, his eyes have basically just been converted to useless, something that any sufficiently inventive, malicious human alchemist could manage. I don't think this has any bearing on the permanence or significance of his condition; it just strikes me as weird, because everything else Truth has done has only taken things away.


I dunno, it's hard to say what the actual problem is, based on a black and white visual representation.
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penguintruth
post Jan 12 2010, 05:48 PM
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Forgive me if you've discussed all this already, I haven't had the chance to read much of the thread. I just got to the chapter today, and here are my thoughts:

Arakawa is really dragging things out at this point. I hope Brotherhood can condense some of this.

Okay, she's managed to explain why they couldn't have just forced alchemists to see the Truth previously, and as I expected, it's because it causes the homunculi that forces them to do so to degenerate. So what, though? If they want to fulfill their Father's wishes, a little degeneration is a smaller sacrifice than waiting around for foolish people to perform human transmutation and risk them becoming powerful enemies. It feels like the explanation has come last-minute when Arakawa realized her mistake in the last chapter.

Mei has a lot of guts going up against Father by herself, even though she has no chance. I mean, she has more chance than the others, since she uses a different alchemy, but Father is the current most powerful character, besides Truth-kun.

The Ishbalans are up to something around Central. Are they constructiing the reverse array in Scar's brother's notes? Is it connected to what Hohenheim had been travelling around to do? Now this is a development I'm interested in. Well, that, and Denny with Maria. Now there's a couple I can support, because they're understated.

At this point, the fights with the homunculi are getting a little tired. I wasn't thrilled with Edward and Alphonse versus Pride (maybe because they spent ten chapters battling him before) nor Scar vs Wrath (plays out like all other fights with Wrath throughout the story). Maybe things will turn out different now that Scar can uses reconstruction, too, but when the hell did he draw that array on his arm?

I hope Hohenheim gets back in the game again somehow and helps Mei. But perhaps Ed and Al will actually get to defeat a homunculi, and I should be looking forward to that more.

I never thought I'd say this but, I miss Ling. Or maybe I just miss Greed.


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Kaori Ayanami
post Jan 12 2010, 07:56 PM
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Wrath had the Ultimate Eye till a few chapters ago, when Greed/Ling hit it hard enough to destroy it. He had an eyesight way better than a human's with it, which proved very useful during some extremely quick battles he had to fight, but that's all there is to it. Maybe the injected stone made his body fitter for battle when remaking it, and he had his awesome training... That's it.
As for the Ishvalans doing stuff around Central, I thought that maybe Scar and Hohenheim had their talk and joined forces for the counter circle of transmutation. At first, it seemed odd to me that the Ishvalans "left the rest" to Scar, when there's someone as knowledgeable and powerful as Hohenheim (he started the counter circle, to start with!), but given that he was to tackle on Father anyway, maybe he left that task to Scar (because of his ability to perform Rentanjutsu). Mei might be able to activate the counter too, but she would be an option only after those two (and she obviously can't now).
QUOTE (penguintruth @ Jan 13 2010, 01:48 AM) *
Okay, she's managed to explain why they couldn't have just forced alchemists to see the Truth previously, and as I expected, it's because it causes the homunculi that forces them to do so to degenerate. So what, though? If they want to fulfill their Father's wishes, a little degeneration is a smaller sacrifice than waiting around for foolish people to perform human transmutation and risk them becoming powerful enemies. It feels like the explanation has come last-minute when Arakawa realized her mistake in the last chapter.
No mistake: It's because he does love his "family". Al least, he did long for one when he was Hohenheim's companion, and that's why he made one of his own (sort of XD); that much was stated in the manga. That he loves it so much he would avoid to sacrifice it, well, we'll see about that. But if he could have such care with Gluttony, of all homunculi... o_0
QUOTE (penguintruth @ Jan 13 2010, 01:48 AM) *
[..] Denny with Maria. Now there's a couple I can support, because they're understated.
There is no evidence in the manga that proves they're a couple. At most, maybe Denny had/has a crush on Maria.
QUOTE (penguintruth @ Jan 13 2010, 01:48 AM) *
I hope Hohenheim gets back in the game again somehow and helps Mei.
He's already helping: if not for him, maybe Mei would be history by now. He can only hinder Father, but it's no small feat at all. cool.gif
QUOTE (penguintruth @ Jan 13 2010, 01:48 AM) *
Arakawa is really dragging things out at this point. I hope Brotherhood can condense some of this.
[..]
At this point, the fights with the homunculi are getting a little tired.
Yes, Wrath's and Pride's defeats are dragging on, and recently there has been more answers than actual development in the manga (or so it seems). But it's been well done anyway, and we can't confirm our bad vibes before the manga ends.
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