HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Chapter 102 "Regular" Discussion Thread For First Time Readers (and Others), No future chapter spoilers here, please. :)
Gukumatz
post Dec 17 2009, 12:15 AM
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QUOTE (Ropespinner @ Dec 16 2009, 04:29 AM) *
Lust wasn't foreshadowind Roy's fate with her last words; Arakawa was foreshadowing it with Lust's last words.


I knew what people meant and I accounted for that when I said (bold new):

QUOTE (Gukumatz @ Dec 16 2009, 12:52 AM) *
I know that people are trying to find interesting clues since Arakawa likes to foreshadow, but I doubt that Lust knew exactly what would happen to Roy or (even if Lust didn't know) that Arakawa meant to hint to Roy's Gate toll so early on.



QUOTE (hawkflame @ Dec 16 2009, 10:03 AM) *
There are enough references to "vision" with regard to Roy that it does seem like foreshadowing.


Insofar as you mean "vision" as in "dream for the future," I agree completely. I think Arakawa was leading up to the irony that Father points out in chapter 102, yes.

Insofar as people are saying "vision" as in "eyes," however, I don't agree at all. Arakawa makes no more references to Roy's eyes than she does to other characters' eyes. It's not just the Lust scene. Arakawa directly stresses eyes when she has Ed hear about the State Alchemists ("eyes lit with determination," ch 24). Scar clearly notices Ed's eyes when Ed jumps in front of Winry to protect her. Ed makes fun of Ling's eyes tons. Ed notes that Ran Fan went straight for his eyes when he made fun of Ling (ch 33). Arakawa mentions eyes in Ishbal when the soldiers, not just Roy, are said to develop "killer's eyes." Hawkeye has "eye" in her name and her eyes are mentioned a lot since she's a sniper.

I am not saying that Arakawa does not mention Roy's eyes. I am saying that it is stretching it to jump and say that all those references to Roy's eyes were foreshadowing for this one scene, which is what some fans are saying. To put it in a more scientific way, I do not think the mentions are statistically significant.

Now, if someone were to actually go through every mention of eyes in the manga and somehow test the null hypothesis ("Roy's eyes are mentioned just as much as other people's eyes") and find it wrong, I'd love you! Hahahaha. It would probably be a lot of work, though.

If this had happened to someone else, you can bet people would point to that character's eye mentions and say that it was major foreshadowing.

You can say that the Lust scene was minor foreshadowing, but I doubt even that. Lust's line was clearly about Roy's future torment, but not physical torment. I don't think anything about that scene hinted that Roy's eyes would be physically damaged in any way.


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Tombow
post Dec 17 2009, 03:20 AM
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^ Yeah, I think I agree with Katya Martin and Gukumatz on this. ^^ Gukumatz has kindly explained this quite eloquently above, and I tend to see this the same way. biggrin.gif But, I'm still open to the possibility of Arakawa-sensei leaving some other direct foreshadowing of this event somewhere in previous chapters. If anyone find the panel with such scene, by all means please post and share! (And, if possible, someone please post the corresponding raw page also so that we can actually check what exactly Arakawa-sensei wrote in the panel. ^^)


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Hagaren_4ever
post Dec 17 2009, 01:08 PM
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To me, it was pretty obvious what Lust meant with her dying words. She recognized Roy as a caring and emotional man. A man that lives for his comrades and not for himself. And she believed that one cannot live well with emotions like those, for she believed those feelings to bring anguish and hate when something goes wrong with the people you're connected to. To me, it seems that what she "foreshadowed" has already passed. When Roy went insane and tried to kill Envy. Remember the look in his eyes then? Pretty filled with anguish, right? They didn't even look the same, right? Yeah, that's what I thought.


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KoolCat
post Dec 17 2009, 07:52 PM
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@ Hagaren_4ever:Agreed.
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Kokoriyu
post Dec 17 2009, 10:32 PM
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This chapter tore me to peices. sad.gif

Al is such a caring idiot, I just really hope that it doesn't come back and take away what he's wanted after this fight is over! Looking back over the manga's main plot points, it still amazes me to no end how extensive and intricate Arakawa-sensei has made this! It all leads up to here. I wish it was January.

About Roy's eyesight...I am sure everyone here has heard it a thousand times. But that scene was just such a shocker for me, I was entirely blindsided. (then went back and watched some Brotherhood, noticed all the little foreshadowings and such and it just made it sadder..) I could almost see this battle ending in a giant fireball (though I really hope Arakawa-sensei wouldn't do something so self-sacrificial "I'm useless blind so here's a last minute death for you" :/)

As for if Roy gets his sight back or not by the end of the story, I really don't know. I want him to because he never even wanted to perform the transmutation. It wasn't an act of choice, he suffered consequence for an action outside his own freedom. But it is one of those things that we will just have to wait and see, as much as it pains us. All I am leaning on now is hope that he's going to survive at least. sad.gif This chapter was so beautifully written, but saddens me eternally as well.

(Seems some manga are doing everything I want them too, then FMA has such tragic plot twists!)
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Katya Martin
post Dec 17 2009, 10:50 PM
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I've got this nagging doubt that he won't be able to get his vision back from the Truth, but I wonder (as many others do) if alkahestry might help.

I kind of doubt we'll get the giant fireball; Roy's not going to let everything go (and this is also assuming that everyone else has died or GTFO'd, which is unlikely).

By the way, Kokoriyu, your avatar is hilarious. biggrin.gif


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Kokoriyu
post Dec 17 2009, 11:14 PM
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Perhaps. The most nagging thing to me is how Izumi explains how "Truth is cruel. But just." Then think about it--that punishment wasn't really just at all for Roy, since he had no control and was literally forced in front of the Gate to become a sacrifice. (Probably just clinging onto any condolences under the sun now for the poor Colonel, aww.)

I sure hope he won't go that far. He is a little bit of a hothead like Ed, in a moment like this his future is so unclear. Arakawa-sensei could go any which way at this point. Suspenseful, though maybe a little bit frustrating as well. Cliffhangers have never seemed crueler.

Thanks xD Glad you like it~
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Sannom
post Dec 18 2009, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (FMAobsessed @ Dec 14 2009, 12:16 PM) *
I am wondering how Mei was able to break into Father's lair, but Riza and the chimeras weren't. Were they not behind Mei, heading in the same direction?


Like people said, Darius has to take care of Riza, and Zampano must keep an eye on his friend Gelso who's been injured pretty bad by Pride (although I thought his wounds were worse than what was shown here). Plus May has elixirology, the only alchemy known to be able to work against Father along with Scar's. And since Scar is busy with Bradley, it makes sense that May would dash for Father's lair and try to help the others.


QUOTE (Kokoriyu @ Dec 18 2009, 12:14 AM) *
Perhaps. The most nagging thing to me is how Izumi explains how "Truth is cruel. But just." Then think about it--that punishment wasn't really just at all for Roy, since he had no control and was literally forced in front of the Gate to become a sacrifice. (Probably just clinging onto any condolences under the sun now for the poor Colonel, aww.)


Well, I still believe that Izumi was right. That's make Pride's little operation all the scarier, because it means that he not only forced Roy to transmute Gold Tooth, he also fooled the Truth on Roy's intentions! And Truth seems to have a kind of omniscience power going on, so you have to wonder about the power of someone who is able to fool it!
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Animeoldtimer
post Dec 18 2009, 10:02 AM
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I like your idea that Truth was fooled by Pride, because I can't think of a justification either why Roy lost his sight.


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mellulah
post Dec 19 2009, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE (Kokoriyu @ Dec 17 2009, 11:14 PM) *
Perhaps. The most nagging thing to me is how Izumi explains how "Truth is cruel. But just." Then think about it--that punishment wasn't really just at all for Roy, since he had no control and was literally forced in front of the Gate to become a sacrifice. (Probably just clinging onto any condolences under the sun now for the poor Colonel, aww.)


He may have been forced to do the human transmutation but I think prehaps the punishment, and how it was just, was for the genocide in Ishbal. I know he didn't enjoy it and he was a soldier but there's a difference between war and killing hundreds of innocent civilians. Wether he was ordered to or not the fact that he killed that amount of people still stands.


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heartwing713
post Dec 19 2009, 08:10 AM
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Mellulah I think you might be on to something. Yes Roy was forced to do human transmutation, but he has done a lot of other things, like participating in Ishbal, and so he's not completely innocent. And, Sannom, I agree with you too, that maybe Pride could have fooled Truth in some way.

Maybe the Truth just governs the gate, and takes payment from whatever passes through. Maybe he doesn't have the discretion to judge people.


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Katya Martin
post Dec 19 2009, 10:30 PM
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Anyone think Truth is somehow connected to Father? Father and many of the homunculi have powers that resemble things inside the Gate; he has made attempts to control a Gate of his own as well. Seems like Truth might even be working with Father; if you look at the "tolls" it's taken from characters, it's never been anything lethal, but it's done things to help Father gain control of people. In chronological order: Izumi lost organs, not enough to kill her but enough to give her a crippling weakness that made her a little easier to control; Ed and Al lost limbs and body, which caused Ed to enter the military, bringing him into Father's reach, and equipping them with bodies that were stronger than normal in most ways, raising their chances of surviving on their own, but with easily exploitable weaknesses; now Roy's been blinded, which makes it a lot safer to go within attack range of him, because he can't use flame alchemy lest he hit an ally.

Also, are we really sure of the criteria for being a human sacrifice? At first glance, it looks like one only needs to have seen the Gate via human transmutation, but Marcoh doesn't seem to have ever done so, would probably need to be forced through the gate, and was being kept as a possible sacrifice. Hohenheim of course is just a weird case whatever rule we try to apply. Is it possible that there are more subtle rules as well-- rules that could throw a spanner in Father's plans? Izumi seems to be the only "standard" sacrifice; she's only done a single human transmutation, while Al's been through the Gate twice and Ed's been there even more (depending on which visits you count), Roy was pushed (and Pride might have screwed things up along the way), and Hohenheim is, well, Hohenheim, and we really don't know what all he's been up to. Is it possible that any of the sacrifices has some trait that will screw up Father's plans?


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Disasterpiece
post Dec 20 2009, 09:23 AM
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How will Mustang regain his eyesight

D=


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angelofsarcasm89
post Dec 20 2009, 12:04 PM
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QUOTE (Katya Martin @ Dec 19 2009, 11:30 PM) *
Also, are we really sure of the criteria for being a human sacrifice? At first glance, it looks like one only needs to have seen the Gate via human transmutation, but Marcoh doesn't seem to have ever done so, would probably need to be forced through the gate, and was being kept as a possible sacrifice.

I think the big thing is that they have to be strong enough to go through the gate and survive. Marcoh's a talented alchemist, but probably not strong enough to make the trip. They said awhile ago that Kimblee wouldn't work, because he wasn't brave enough. I think another thing that would have an effect is the person's determination to get back. Where I could see Marcoh being like "I've done horrible things, I deserve to die here. Take me, Truthy-kins." I imagine Roy more like "GTF OFF ME, I HAVE TO GET BACK NOW!"

Also, I'd really like to see more of Roy's trip through the gate.


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black~hayate
post Dec 20 2009, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (angelofsarcasm89 @ Dec 20 2009, 08:04 PM) *
Also, I'd really like to see more of Roy's trip through the gate.


I'm sure this is gonna be an important key to something, something really interesting...
Of course it was left out on purpose wink.gif


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