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Does Equivalent Exchang Apply In Real Life?, Spoilers Alert!! (especially, FMA Anime episode 49!!)
FMA-Freak
post Mar 25 2006, 09:37 PM
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That does make sense, but they did give an equivelent price for the last episode, I think. Al gave up his entire memories of Ed. And he already had his soul. So by giving up only memories of Ed, he got his body, and was turned into a kid, the same age before they transmuted they're mom. Does that make sense?


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Omega Shell
post Mar 25 2006, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE(FMA-Freak @ Mar 25 2006, 11:22 PM) [snapback]369369[/snapback]

That does make sense, but they did give an equivelent price for the last episode, I think. Al gave up his entire memories of Ed. And he already had his soul. So by giving up only memories of Ed, he got his body, and was turned into a kid, the same age before they transmuted they're mom. Does that make sense?


No. Hohenheim mentions to Ed that "Dante seperated my body, mind and soul within the gate." His body, being just that. His mind, being his memories. His soul being his life and ability to live. Exactly as I said above. Now, remember the butcher-guy for example? He was bound to a suit of armor, aswell. He did not lose any memory before the transmutation, and neither did the other brothers bound to the armor. This shows that minds have to power to stay with the souls. But with Al, his did not when he was originally transmuted. That led me to believe that his old mind stayed with his body, and he created a new one. When he transmuted himself to get Ed back, he gave up his *current* mind and his soul in exchange for Ed's. His soul probably joined his body back at the gate, which was already joined with his old mind. The old mind hadn't been used since the brothers tried to transmute their mother.

He did age in the gate. The bodies in the gate do age over time. We saw this through Wrath. Not only did a homunculi age, but a homunculi in the gate aged. Al's body was in that same gate, so I assume his body did age at the same rate their world was.

Yes, the brothers did give an equal price in the end, but what I was getting at was that they both gained their bodies in the opposite worlds. In episode 49-50, Ed was in "Other-Ed"'s body, with "Fullmetal"'s soul and mind. Al was in the metal suit with Al's soul and mind. While in opposite worlds, they were both equal to each other. They were missing their bodies. However in the final episode they both gain their bodies while they are in opposite worlds. If you think just about that, they gained without loss. This would prove Dante's speakings as true, but they had to lose certain things in order to gain others.
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MonsterEnvy
post Mar 26 2006, 11:30 AM
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It is equivalent exchange at the end. Ed actually isn't creating anything, he's just pulling stuff out of the doors, and, in return, he goes into the doors. Then, to leave again, he had to give up his arm. He messed up by trying to go out of the wrong side.


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Omega Shell
post Mar 26 2006, 12:05 PM
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I don't understand what you're trying to say. He only gives up his arm for Al at the begining of the series. But yes, he does just go through the gate at the end, and he pulls Al out of the gate. That would be equivalent exchange.

But I just thought of something.. By Dante saying that E-E doesn't exist, is she right or wrong? Many people throughout the series give examples of how it doesn't exist. For example, one person says "a baby that dies at birth gains nothing, but loses life." or something. Could the law only apply to alchemy and not to the world?
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Sajid
post Mar 26 2006, 12:06 PM
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ill have to disagree......the ingredients of the Trisha's body were already there. Since they failed all they created was Sloth, there was never any soul forged. As for what the Elrics gained for their bodily sacrifice were the 4 years that they spent together which we see in the FMA series. In episode 44- Hohenheim of light...Hohneheim mentions that "what we gain is not always wanted" ... hence at episode 51 -Laws and Promises... we see that Edward trades the memory of Al i.e his experience for Al's body....this fact is also mentioned by Hohenheim. So its basically the exact trade just the opposite way.... Body=Memories/Experience...then Memories/Experience=Body....and thats y he gets his exact 10year old self.

oh and FMA ROCKS!!!!!!
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Omega Shell
post Mar 26 2006, 12:23 PM
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The ingredients for the body were there, but I think it needed a full and complete body to do the transmutation. By the meaning of "soul" I meant "life." There are 3 basic componants to a person: life, their body, and their memories. Sloth had the life, or the "soul," and the body. Al gave his body for Sloth, and Ed gave his arm for Sloth's ability to live.

In episode 51, Ed traded his body for Al's. He does not give up his mind anywhere in the show. Complete body = Complete body. And Al is 12.
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kiori
post Mar 26 2006, 12:24 PM
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Don't you think that maybe, when you consider Ed's last trunsmutation of Al, that Hohenheim was right? He said that everything they went through, the blood, sweat and tears, was the price they paid and the reason Ed was still alive. Not only that, but he did lose his arm and leg once again and that added to what he paid. All things considered, I think he paid more than a fair price to bring Al back.
While Equivalent Exchange is a pleasant idea, that you'll always get something if you work for it or pay the price, I have to say that Dante has a good point. Some people are born into a rich family and don't do a damn thing to earn it. Others that are less fortunate may work for it but never get it. It's just the way of the world - there will always be unequal distribution of wealth and some people will get everything and some will get nothing. I'm not saying that you won't get something if you work for it, but E.E. definately has a lot of exceptions.
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Omega Shell
post Mar 26 2006, 12:28 PM
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Like I said above, maybe E.E. only applies to transmuting and such?

And then at what point is it able to be bypassed? Do they ever use the complete philosopher's stone on a transmutation? (I haven't seen episodes 41-49 yet.)
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Damascus
post Mar 27 2006, 08:57 AM
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As far as physical laws, Equivalent Exchange is unerringly true. This is shown in the Law of Conservation of Mass, Newton's third law, and the first law of thermodynamics. The exchange of energy in a closed system is always equivalent, no matter what.

When you think about social systems and stuff like that, it's not quite the same deal. I beleived in it for most of the season, and applied it to life, but even before this episode, I saw that there were flaws everywhere. Sometimes, people are born into a wealthy family, and have to do very little work to get by in life; gaining without sacrifice. And other times, people in the lower class can work as hard as they can but get nothing for their efforts; giving without reward.

The flaw is in humans, and where our flaws are expressed, the law of EE is noticably skewed. I still believe it is a healthy principle to live by, as they say in the last episode, and there is pressure in society to pertain to this kind of law, but its not perfect.

That's what I think. biggrin.gif


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nakagos bunny
post Mar 27 2006, 03:16 PM
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I don't think equivalent exchange applies in real life.

Look at people who work like dogs all their life but don't get a high salary so they don't have much to show for it.

Then there's people who might have an easier job but the salary is higher and so they do have a lot to show for it.

I definitley don't think everything works out evenly or fairly.
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Popogeejo
post Mar 27 2006, 03:51 PM
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QUOTE
I don't think equivalent exchange applies in real life


Tell that to a scientist or Mathmatician.

Equivlent exchange applys to Chemistry and Maths.It would be nice if it applied to human interaction and social situations but it doesn't.You can bust yor hump all day for an attractive member of the opposite sex (or same,whatever floats your boat) but get nothing but a "thank you" in return.
In the market place equivlent exchange is boasted as law but offten ignored in the name of profit.A shop will charge as much as it could for a product no matter how crappy it is.


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Claytonheim of L...
post Mar 27 2006, 05:53 PM
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I want to adress a few points that people have been making lately:

First, the concepts of "gain" and "loss". Everyone immedeatly thinks of ''gain" in terms of material things, money and good looks. While it's true they certainly help, is that really all there is to a contented life? Plato believed that good looks were really a disadvantage in the long run. It is true that better looking people are favored all around, especially earlier in life, but no one stays good looking forever. I know I'm making generalizations here, but just for argument's sake, often times this causes good looking people to have less developed personalities, because they have so much handed to them, they don't have to learn to work to get people to like them. As they get older, and their looks fade, and looks become less important to their peers, unless they have a strong, interesting personality, they have nothing to offer. They end up wondering what they did wrong, since they are so used to the royal treatment for no apparant reason.

And if your attraction to a person is based only on what they looik like, you're in for a rude awakening. That rush you feel on seeing a gorgeous person is just your hormones screaming "BREED!" It wears off in time. If the person dosn't have a good personality, you will no longer want to see them. So, maybe getting a good looking person isn't always such a "gain".

The same applies to wealth. Someone who has everything can still be miserable. Elvis and Marilyn Monroe come to mind. They had every material thing a human could want, and yet they killed themselves. Monks take a vow of poverty as a means to enlightenment. So who really "gained" more, Elvis or the Dali Lama?

I go back to my point about EE being more sublle then people realize. If you work at the things in life that really matter in the long run, you will "gain" a rich, fulfilling life, even if you are poor and ugly.
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princess_punker8...
post Mar 27 2006, 06:57 PM
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i know this is a little OT, but when i read this it made me think of this stand up comedian
QUOTE
First, the concepts of "gain" and "loss". Everyone immedeatly thinks of ''gain" in terms of material things, money and good looks. While it's true they certainly help, is that really all there is to a contented life? Plato believed that good looks were really a disadvantage in the long run. It is true that better looking people are favored all around, especially earlier in life, but no one stays good looking forever.

He was like, there's a surgery to make your boobs higher, your face tighter, your stomch flatter, but you can't fix stupid.
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OK anyway back OT, EE applies sometimes in life, like many other people have agreed and many have also agreed EE applies 99% of the time in Chem and Math. Sometimes, it boils down to whether you believe in an afterlife, whether its heaven, or reincarnation, or paradise.... in any of those situations, if you do wrong in life, you're not gonna get ANYTHING good...but there are people who dont believe in that, and thats why theres karma...what goes around, comes around 3 fold...ok im done had to put my 2 cents in laugh.gif


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Claytonheim of L...
post Mar 29 2006, 05:42 PM
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Thank you, princess_punker84, I was hoping someone would bring up karma! I think EE is closely akin to karma, and that's why I maintain that it's real. First off, there's a bit more to karma then "what goes around comes around," most westerners don't get the whole concept. In the east, it's not considered so much a religious theory as a universal law, like gravity or thermodynamics.

A good word to use when translating karma is duty. It is each person's duty to live a happy, fulfilling life. When we enter this world, we are given certain advantages and certain drawbacks, some more than others. This is fate. Your karma is how well you do your duty,which is to make the best of what you have to work with. So, someone can be rich and famous but miserable, this person has bad karma. On the flip side, a poor person can be happy and content, this person has good karma. The way to overcome your fate is to be the best person you can be, this is practicing good karma, and you will be rewarded with a rich, fulfilling life.

To use a Matix example, it's not that you can dodge the bullets, it's that you don't have to. Back to the example of trying and trying to get a hot girl and getting nowhere--this is trying to dodge the bullets. But, if you practice good karma, you will realize that the girl just dosn't like you, and being with someone who dosn't like you is only going to make you both miserable in the end. Now you realize the bullets aren't real.

To sum up, I maintain that EE is for real, on the basis that if you work toward what is really important in life, you will be rewarded with what is really valuable in life.
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asunder
post Mar 30 2006, 02:01 AM
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QUOTE(Claytonheim of Light @ Mar 29 2006, 05:27 PM) [snapback]371174[/snapback]

To use a Matix example, it's not that you can dodge the bullets, it's that you don't have to. Back to the example of trying and trying to get a hot girl and getting nowhere--this is trying to dodge the bullets. But, if you practice good karma, you will realize that the girl just dosn't like you, and being with someone who dosn't like you is only going to make you both miserable in the end. Now you realize the bullets aren't real.


I think your example of karma is a bit off...or at least a bit muddled.

equivalent exchange in real life? That's not generally true.
A quick example which has probably already been talked about:

In college, you quickly realize that there are people who don't put any effort (let's call them Group A) , and there are people who have to work hard in order to get the same grades (Group cool.gif and a third category where no matter how much effort you put into a task, there is little or no reward (Group C). Almost as if you were doomed from the start.

err in summary:
Group A: No/little work -> Reward!
Group B: Lots of hard work -> Reward!
Group C: Lots of hard work -> Minimal / No Reward

(I've been in all of these groups depending on the difficulty of the course.)

Some people relate equivalent exchange to biology,chemistry and mathematics. Aside from the theories....in which Equivalent exchange could occur. Real life isn't so simple...for biology and chemistry...there's a lot more complexity than what the theories tell you. If you want to give me an example of Equivalent exchange in these subjects, I'll do my best to provide you with examples where it doesn't work in the same context. In the area of mathematics, any scientist or researcher knows that using real world data can lead to unexplicable results sometimes....where the result deviates from what you expected in a model or a theory. In any of these cases, I like to say that real-world data has something called 'random noise' ... which prevents your results from real world data to exactly fit your predictived model/theory.


Edit:
QUOTE(Claytonheim of Light @ Mar 29 2006, 05:27 PM) [snapback]371174[/snapback]

A good word to use when translating karma is duty.

maybe you're thinking of the word dharma...which is a translation of duty.


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