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Does Equivalent Exchang Apply In Real Life?, Spoilers Alert!! (especially, FMA Anime episode 49!!)
Claytonheim of L...
post Mar 7 2006, 05:40 PM
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Glad to see there are some thinkers in here! The general opinion seems to be that EE applies...to point.

Getting back to the example of Izumi's baby, is someone who lives a short, happy life better off then somone who lives a long. miserable one? in other words, is quality better then quantity?

Now, do you thing Dante is happy, even with her centuries of life? Think about if someone who was like her in the real world, responsible for the deaths of thousands of people. What would people think of that person. There are plenty of examples in history, how are thy remembered? Would you want to be thought of like that? How would you feel if you met one of those people? That seems to me like a rather poor quality of life.

Now think about people you know who are nice. What is the general opinion of them? Would you gladly do a favor for them if they asked? I think they enjoy a better quality of life.

So...maybe equivilant exchange operates more subtley, improving our quality of life.
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Melydragon
post Mar 7 2006, 10:02 PM
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Well said, Claytonheim of Light !!

The truth is that I always thought (since I started watching FMA) that Equvalent Exchange was, the worldīs. But after seeing episode 49 I changed my mind. It is true that you use EE most of the time. But sometimes the gain will not be equal to the sacrifice. Which I think is not really fair. As much as we would love to live in a perfect world, we just canīt. We still have a lot to learn from this life and world before we deserve the perfect world we want.


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Taking a ride in the time wind, letīs cross the heaven,
Somewhere in the rainbow that leads to the door of the dreams
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Joe J
post Mar 7 2006, 11:00 PM
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There are plenty of philosophical and theological expressions that reflect my feelings on the matter, but I think the Rolling Stones put it best:

You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you might find
You get what you need

Peace,
Joe J.
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Black Zero
post Mar 7 2006, 11:29 PM
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Not really unless you start a fight with me. Full Contact time.


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Forum sisters: Mei tenshi and Iloveu2Al and zombie XD :P :D
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InternetAlchemis...
post Mar 8 2006, 12:11 AM
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I agree that EE applies up to a point. However, I have to point out that Dante's logic was flawed. Think back to basic math logic courses. Just because all Widgets are Fidgedts, that does not mean all Fidgets are Widgets. The law of equivlent exachange states that to gain something of equal value must be lost. It says nothing about what will happen if you lose. The law does not guarantee gain with loss, only loss with gain.


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The Internet Alchemist

~~~To Gain, Something of equal value must be lost -- Alchemy's first law of equivlant exchange.
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Automne
post Mar 8 2006, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE(JoshP1389 Posted Yesterday @ 02:38 PM)
QUOTE(SinLuxuria @ Mar 7 2006 @ 07:13 AM)
It was not an answer to your post.

USE QUOTES PLZKTHXBUH-BYE

And why would I ever quote the thread title? rolleyes.gif

Think before posting, plzkthxbye!


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mspaint_lolz on livejournal


'Buffy and Angel had gone out before and Buffy wasn't really comfortable talking to Spike and Angel at the same time, because now Spike and Buffy had been going out for 6 months and Buffy was afraid that Angel might tell Spike that him and Buffy went out, but it turns out that Angel had told Spike that they went out, Spike was heartbroken that Buffy never told him that they went out, so Spike broke up with Buffy to get back at her for not telling him that Angel and Buffy went out.'

-NOT MINE

TEH BESTEST (AND MOST FRENCH) ROMANCE EVAR
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JoshP1389
post Mar 8 2006, 05:19 AM
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You don't really think much on people's reactions do you?

[example]

QUOTE(SinLuxuria @ Yesterday, 05:40 AM)
QUOTE(Claytonheim of Light @ Mar 6 2006, 07:43 PM) [snapback]359742[/snapback]

-snip-

No.

[/example]

That's it.


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Automne
post Mar 8 2006, 06:11 AM
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No, I don't, not when this is clear, or at least when it requires a bit of thinking to come to the conclusion my post was not directed to you, especially if this one was not quoted.

But, if you're so bothered by it:

QUOTE
Does Equivalant Exchang Apply In Real Life?

No.

Happy? Good. rolleyes.gif


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mspaint_lolz on livejournal


'Buffy and Angel had gone out before and Buffy wasn't really comfortable talking to Spike and Angel at the same time, because now Spike and Buffy had been going out for 6 months and Buffy was afraid that Angel might tell Spike that him and Buffy went out, but it turns out that Angel had told Spike that they went out, Spike was heartbroken that Buffy never told him that they went out, so Spike broke up with Buffy to get back at her for not telling him that Angel and Buffy went out.'

-NOT MINE

TEH BESTEST (AND MOST FRENCH) ROMANCE EVAR
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Philosopher'...
post Mar 8 2006, 12:37 PM
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Equivalent Exchange is analogous to the Law of Conservation of Mass. Meaning you can neither destroy or create matter in a *chemical* reaction. As far as I can tell, it is no different for alchemy since all they're really doing tapping into an nigh-infinite well of energy using magic and using it to force reactions to occur according to their will. (revealed in the next episode).

In other words, they're reading way too much into the law by applying it to things related to what humans value. So yes, Dante is right insofar in that she saying that you won't always get something back that *you personally value.* If you wanted to apply the law of conservation of mass or conservation of energy to the death of a baby it would be very easy to do. If the baby dies, the mass is still there somewhere in the universe, even after the corpse rots. Similarily, the human animal is composed of many polymers and complex molecules that contain a lot of energy. The chemical energy is "returned to the earth" by being converted into other forms. It's a cold impassionate mathematical value we apply to understand how the reaction works and nothing more. It's a tool, not a magical formula to get anything you want.

But to take the more philosophical angle, your actions yield consequences, whether or not you like those consequences. There are always consequences to anything you do, some of it you can't even control, some of it you simply lack the wisdom or intelligence to undertand. The point is that you can't control all the consequences of your actions, but nobody else is responsible for them except yourself. You have to live with those consequences beyond any arbitrary agreement of "fairness" you may think exists between yourself and the universe, God or other humans. Justice only applies to one human to another, and even then, there are humans who don't follow your understanding of "justice."

Example: By transmuting their mother, Edward and Alphonse were trading their innocence for an early adulthood. Maybe they believed they were getting mother back, but that isn't what has occured. Ed loses an arm and Alphonse loses his body. This consequence is as "Equivalent" as any other consequence they could expect from their foolish actions, they may not value it, but as far as the universe is concerned, that was a fair trade. That's casuality kicking your ass.
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Claytonheim of L...
post Mar 8 2006, 06:02 PM
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I think Joe J and the Stones hit it right on the head. "You get what you need." This leads me to disagree with Interner Alchemist, who says that while there is loss with gain, there is not necessarily gain with loss. I think the gain we get when we lose something is just not always apparant immediately, or we can't percieve it until we can look back on it in hindsight.

For example, when Ed loses his arm and leg, he learns a very valuable lesson. He learns that it is wrong to go against the natural flow of things, that he is not above natural law any more than any othe living thing. He dosn't understand at first, until Izumi drills it into his head. (She probably learned the same way...)This is a valuable bit of insight into the nature of reality, an a step on his maturing process, as he approaches Izumi's level of wisdom. Thus, he "gets what he needs."
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Philosopher'...
post Mar 8 2006, 08:31 PM
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QUOTE(Claytonheim of Light @ Mar 8 2006, 06:47 PM) [snapback]360441[/snapback]

I think Joe J and the Stones hit it right on the head. "You get what you need." This leads me to disagree with Interner Alchemist, who says that while there is loss with gain, there is not necessarily gain with loss. I think the gain we get when we lose something is just not always apparant immediately, or we can't percieve it until we can look back on it in hindsight.

For example, when Ed loses his arm and leg, he learns a very valuable lesson. He learns that it is wrong to go against the natural flow of things, that he is not above natural law any more than any othe living thing. He dosn't understand at first, until Izumi drills it into his head. (She probably learned the same way...)This is a valuable bit of insight into the nature of reality, an a step on his maturing process, as he approaches Izumi's level of wisdom. Thus, he "gets what he needs."

I personally would have said that humans adapt to their environment. Every act you commit to doesn't simply change the world, but etches itself into your mind. When something terrible happens, you change mentally by reaching a level of acceptance of your fate. Your personal growth causes you to seek out the advantages of your situation instead of languishing in despair. That simple willingness to do the best with what you've got is what makes that individual stronger. By having restrictions forced upon that individual, that individual then must learn how to operate under those restrictions.

So if I were Izumi's apprentice, I wouldn't particularly care to have my ass beaten in by her. I already have my own understanding of my place in the world and I feel her version is a bit niave. But that's just little old me.
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Wesmaster
post Mar 8 2006, 09:29 PM
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I believe EE exists primarly in science balincing equations and coverstion of math etc
but in life it simply cannot work Dante put it perfectly.... what about all the people that did the state alchemist exam with ed all that work was for nothing
the people who work all their life but never get out of poverty
the people who do no work all their life and live like kings
izumis baby died and gained nothing

in science yes thats why its the basic principle of alchemy b/c alchemy is a science
but in life no
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Claytonheim of L...
post Mar 8 2006, 09:44 PM
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Excellently, put, Philosopher's stone.

I think Izumi uses that approach because that is the best way to get trough to a person of Ed's age or level of understanding. As he gets older, and proves he is more mature, she treats him more and more as an equal. Early on she is like a drill seargant, she has to break his ego and instill his absolute confidence in her abilities. The teacher has to prove to the student that she knows what she's talking about. Admittedly, her methods are severe, but not uncommon in traditional, serious Asian martial arts training.
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Hyleaus
post Mar 24 2006, 04:47 AM
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I think that any belief whatsoever in cosmic order is inherently skeptical. I prefer not to talk about things to which I cannot begin to understand; however, I can talk about sociology. Perhaps this natural law exists for elements and chemistry and the like, but I do not think that it exists on a sociological scale. For instance:

I happen to have met a professor at lunch the other day. We got to talking, and she invited me to be a part of her research team over the summer. The research is of such importance that it will be published. On an application, this is going to put me above nearly all of my competitors. But why? There is no equal exchange here: I will get a job based on research that was arbitrarily alloted to me. Not because I'm a hard worker or because of my grades.

Take another case point: Those who look pretty, time and time again get off in court. If anyone dares to contest that, I defy you to sit in on a trial. I spent a few years on a mock-trial team and the judges don't lie about their being distracted by presentation over logic. It's sad, but juries are worse. If I were ever to give advice worthy of heeding it would be this: NEVER GET ARRESTED. You will probably get convicted because of gullible juries.

That was off topic, sorry. The point is that these things are not the workings of Equivalent exchange. I would like to venture this proviso, though: When talking about EE, who can say where the beginning is and where the end is? For instance, in my first example, perhaps it was through hard work that I impressed my professor, or perhaps the person whom I beat out for a job will have a better life than me.

Sapientissimi etiam omnes fines non possunt videre- "Even the wisest cannot see all ends" Tolkien

Hyleaus


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Omega Shell
post Mar 25 2006, 07:04 PM
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<Moved the thread from FMA Anime AMerican Audience sub-forum. 02/03/07 ~Tombow>
<Merged "Equivalent Exchange *contains Spoliers*" thread with the following two pages of posts here. 02/19/07 ~Tombow>

My theory: Dante says Equivalent Exchange does not exist. Simple as that. Dante is wrong, however. It does exist, but it can be manipulated. Yes, it sounds crazy, but I think the series backs it up.

Let's start at the very beginging. Ed and Al try to transmute their mother back to life. Al gives his body for his mother's body. Ed gives his left leg for his mother's soul. Ed also gives his right arm for his brother's soul. He then binds Al's soul into the armor. Their result: A homunculi and a kid in a suit of armor. They paid a body and 2 limbs and gained a body and two lives. If you examine it deep down, there are 3 parts to a body: physical body, life, and memory. In every person, the cost would probably be 50%-12.5%-37.5%, repsectively. Al paid his physical body for his mothers. Equal trade. Now, Ed paid his leg (25% of the 50%, which is 12.5.%) for his mother's life. The ability to live, basically. He also paid the same for Al. Both Al and Sloth have no memory, but they both have life.

Izumi does the same kind of thing. However, in her case it is different. She already has a body without memories, so all she needs and wants is life for the baby. She gives a few of her less-important organs for his life, and it works. She loses the organs, and Wrath gains life. It's an equal trade.

Once more, Al does it. He gives up his life and memory while Wrath (unintentionally and uncontrolably) gives his right arm and left leg. Since Ed's body was not complete (had no arm and leg), I assume the equivalence needed an extra part, and thus took Wrath's limbs. Ed comes back with his complete body (no automail), complete life, and complete memory. Al is gone.

The final human transmutation we see is Ed's. He offers his complete mind, body, and life for Al's. Ed goes away, and Al comes back with his complete body, life, and mind (but remember, his memories were linked with his BODY, not his armor. He receieved all the memories that were linked to his body.) It was a completely equal trade.. or was it? Ed recieves his body, mind, and life on the other side of the gate.

Remember back to episode 49/50. Dante sends Ed to the other side of the gate. Here, during this phase, we witness both sides at once. On the Alchemist side, Al has his mind and life, but no body. On the WW1 side, Ed has his mind and life, but no body. Zoom to episode 51, and Al is complete on the Alchemist side, and Ed is complete on the (post)-WW1 side. They both gained their bodies on opposite sides of the gate at NO COST!

It seems as though Dante is wrong in some cases, but right in the other.. how come? The equivalent exchange theory is correct, like I said before, but they gained something without losing anything.. How could this be? I think there is also a law of addition. Anything added to one side of the gate is added to the other. Hundreds of thousands of people die in Ishbal and such, while hundreds of thousands die throughout WW1. Death is added to both sides.

What do you all think?
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