HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Discussions On Designs On Truth Gate/door For Ed, Al, And Others (spoilers Alert ^^), Kabbalah (The Nature Of Truth, The Nature Of Father) On The Gate?
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Katya Martin
post Jan 25 2010, 05:21 PM
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Very interesting discussion so far.
I also noticed that other transmutation circles-- the one in the fifth lab, for instance-- have a fair amount of Latin thrown in.

On the subject of gates, we've got another for discussion (SPOILERS AHOY): http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/102/014/

Now this is interesting. It doesn't seem to have any writing on it. Edit: I lied about the writing http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/102/015/ but it does seem to have a lot less writing on it than the other gates have. The design seems a little similar to those of his gloves... and is that a double helix looped through it?

I haven't done much research, but I might hazard a theory that not only Kabbalah, but other historical alchemy has been used in creating the alchemy system here. It seems like Arakawa did a lot of research, then fused it into FMA's alchemy system.


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sidekick.kep37
post Jan 25 2010, 07:36 PM
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Honestly, I am nothing short of amazed at all this. I read through this topic and I wasn't sure how to comprehend everything, let alone type down my amazement in a grateful statement. Haha. Anyways, this discussion here is really very interesting to me. This whole concept of the Kabbalah was something I never heard of before and what little I know of it from this topic has given me the urge to go look it up. The relationship between God and the mortal world was always something we (or at least I) as humans have always pondered upon, and though, it wasn't at the top of my list to research, it's pretty thought provoking.

A lot of this stuff is pretty in depth, and I'm generally not the type of person to dig deep into this type of things and for that chaton. ropespiner and everyone else who has participated in this discussion, I want to thank you and encourage your guys to keep drying to decipher this "code" since I don't think I'm as smart as you guys on here. happy.gif

Oh and I agree with Katya's statement. The fact that Arakawa went so deep into this is nothing shy of incredible.
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Ropespinner
post Jan 26 2010, 12:43 PM
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Long time ago, I tried to draw a pic of Al's Doors (yep, I'm still talking about that. I feel like I'm spamming, sorry...), but since all source images were so unclear, it was left unfinished. But now I that I found that illustration from Catholicon Physicorum, where the text was clear enough to read, I tried again. (Also it helped that chapter 102 and the Brotherhood anime have since supplied us with some slightly clearer images of Al's Doors).

[image stopped working sorry]

(This must be the the geekiest thing I've ever done!)

Also, I was trying to google more information about the image and Catholicon Physicorum, and I came across this. There some of Norton's illustrations are explained; not this particular one, but others from the same book, and they seem to be quite connected, so adapting that explanation when trying to interpret the image on Al's door should not be too far-fetched.

I'm especially interested in the fact that the text (Dictionary of Alchemy) talks about the separation and reunion of body and soul as a phase when trying to create what can be called the Philosopher's Stone, and the graphs in Norton's Catholicon Physiocorum seem to, at least partially, represent that.


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A Pierrot's Aria
post Jan 26 2010, 02:36 PM
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On the subject of Roy's gate...I think that double-helix part could be two snakes. I brightened it on Photoshop (to the best of my ability) and it looks really similar to an image I found in the gallery on that Alchemy website.

I wonder if Arakawa stuck different imagery together on Roy's gate? I can't find the same image anywhere. =o

I'm really enjoying this discussion; thank you to Ropespinner for the brilliant drawing! The meaning of it is so apt considering Al's situation. : D


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Kale Mustang
post Jan 26 2010, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (A Pierrot's Aria @ Jan 26 2010, 01:36 PM) *
On the subject of Roy's gate...I think that double-helix part could be two snakes. I brightened it on Photoshop (to the best of my ability) and it looks really similar to an image I found in the gallery on that Alchemy website.

I wonder if Arakawa stuck different imagery together on Roy's gate?


I'll take a look at my copy of Gangan, but from what I could see on the actual pages (not from a scan), was that the double-helix is either two snakes or two dragons (the heads were kinda hard to see).
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Katya Martin
post Jan 26 2010, 09:55 PM
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That would also make sense; there's a lot of snake imagery related to alchemy. It could also be salamanders, which are associated with fire.


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MissPodoodle
post Jan 27 2010, 02:46 PM
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Wow. That was actually really interesting. O.O Made me wanna do some research, so I did! It's concerning Roy's gate ^^

I think it is snakes, serpents do seem to be very common in alchemy (and it kinda looks like there's scales on the picture).

As for what it is, I've looked up serpents in alchemy before and found what it kind of looks like, though I'm not entirely sure:

The Caduceus



This is two snakes wrapped around a central axis (in this case, it would be the line where the gate opens). Caduceus represents mercury(or Hermes), although it can also represent duality. This is quite interesting as the method to achieve the Philosopher's Stone is to bring this together to make one. (as far as I understand from what I read)

Hermes was also said to have invented fire, which is quite appropriate for Mustang.

Also, on Mustang's gate, there seems to be two triangles, I'm not sure but these could be like the ones on Mustang's gloves(the inverted triangle is earth and the other is air), or it could be the symbols for fire and water. The triangles look like they're coming together, and I'm sure I've read somewhere that opposites(eg. fire & water) joining together can also create the Philosopher's Stone.

And of course, we also see the sun which represents the soul. There's also something at the bottom of Roy's gate, but I can't really tell what it is exactly.

On another note, have we ever seen Izumi's gate? I can't remember, and if anyone finds it, please let me know where abouts in the manga it is.






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A Pierrot's Aria
post Jan 27 2010, 02:55 PM
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^That's the picture I was referring to in my post! Thank you so much for posting it! : D

And that bit about the triangles coming together is really interesting!


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mersaydee
post Jan 27 2010, 03:41 PM
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It appears - from my untrained eye - that Roy's gate design is the same as Riza's back tattoo (the secret of flame alchemy). If it's not exactly the same, then it's darn close:





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Kale Mustang
post Jan 27 2010, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (mersaydee @ Jan 27 2010, 02:41 PM) *
It appears - from my untrained eye - that Roy's gate design is the same as Riza's back tattoo (the secret of flame alchemy). If it's not exactly the same, then it's darn close:



Roy's Gate is similar to, but not exactly, the same as Riza's tattoo. Many of the same elements are there (two snakes, a sun, the triangles) but it's not the exact thing.

Also, in looking at the raw of ch. 103 in Gangan, I like the fact that Scar's tattoo for 'reconstruction' is a caduceus.
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Alphonsefan27
post Jan 29 2010, 09:31 PM
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I think they did show Izumi's gate. It was brief, but I remember it. It was when Ed and Al learn Izumi committed human transmutation in Brotherhood. It only lasted five seconds, so I'll post the pictures later.

I always wanted to learn about science from over two hundred years ago, and it still fascinates me to this day. This is really cool on what you guys are doing! The only word I knew was "anima," yet you guys know so much! Amazing, I'm going to my local library to do research this weekend, this is so interesting! biggrin.gif


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deet-tastic
post Feb 6 2010, 12:10 AM
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This thread just made me love FMA that much more.
Kudos to you X's 100000 Ropespinner for that work on Al's gate. It's amazing.


Just a friendly tip deet, we class this sort of comment as spam, as it adds nothing to the discussion. Can we be careful not to do this in the future, and if you want to compliment a members work, why not send them a PM? - Chiyo


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Elemental/Alchem...
post Feb 12 2010, 02:16 AM
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I find it extremely awesome that people are interested in this, I’ve always loved Arakawa’s incorporation of Alchemy’s roots.

I just want to add some of the background info on what Kabballah is in general.

And as a pre-face to my statement on Kabballah (I’m Jewish, have a little knowledge of its study and themes), please read the following 2 paragraphs:

There are those who train their minds for many many years, Buddhists for example who may be able to exert their spiritual energy onto the world... after they train their minds for many, many yrs., (assuming most of their entire life, at least 40,50+ yrs. i'd say... ) there are some that say tests have shown more brain activity in learned and trained Buddhists than in normal ppl. or beginner Buddhists... and there are some who have studied and trained all their lives who i've heard are rumored to be able to use telepathy or the amazing exertion of energy from their body in the form of physical properties - but note that these ppl. have trained their body and mind for many many yrs.

Now combine this idea of many intense years of study with a science.
Alchemy was that science, that combined early elements of chemistry with wizardry, religion and mysticism, including the idea that the human soul acted as a catalyst for chemical reactions (thus the transmutation circles dreamt up by Ms. Arakawa in order to symbolize the chemical reaction). They believed that when they heated an element and combined it with another element, the creation of a third, seemingly different element was partially b/c of their souls involvement in the process (i.e. they did it themselves, nature not included). This incorporation of soul in the process was not an idea cooked up during the scientific process – in fact it was borrowed from the religious ideals surrounding the time.

on that note...

It is extremely difficult to understand Kabballah as it was meant to be. It is not just some philosophy book you can pick up at a library, it has references and logic that needs to be learnt before – similar to the reason you don’t open a Calc. III book without learning I or II.

Kabballah is a mystical belief that incorporates the many ideas and texts of the Torah, Nevi'im (Judges or Prophets), Ketubim (extra writings which include Psalms, Song of Solomon, Ruth, the book of Esther, the chronicles of the Judeain (Jewish) Kings) - and was commented on in the Gemara (book of law) by many Rishonim and Geonim (different generations of Rabbis)...

It is said to include in it the secrets of Judaism and the secrets of G-d Himself, God's creation of the universe and the laws of nature, and the path by which Adult Religious Jews can learn these secrets...

Why Adult? The same way Buddhists and others train their mind, body and soul for yrs., so too was the requirement for the study of Kabballah - A religious Jew who is past the age of 40 and has studied extensively the writings of the Tanach (the Torah, Nevi'im and Ketubim combined) and Gemarah so much so that he would be able to quote any Gemarah or line in Tanach in a heartbeat (which only very few Rabbis have ever accomplished - such examples today may be the head Rabbis in the world and the most learned Rabbis... of their day, these Rabbis were Rashi, Maimonides, Nahmanides and others)

This is truly possible. There is something called the pin test – stick a pin in any page of the Gemarah, and some learned Rabbis can recall every letter that pin would touch on every page of the over 6,000 or so pages.

He must also understand Gematria (letter-number connections) and commentaries such as Tosafot, Rashi and the like... Moreover, he must have learnt for many, many yrs.!

Today’s extreme view of Kabballah (such as Madonna and others) is so off and wrong, it is shameful to those Religious and Learned Jews and philosophers who actually understand it...

But Arakawa did her research, and her addition of Alchemy's connection to religious symbols is truly a statement about her dedication to accuracy in her work.

It is also a great way to start philosophical discussions huh? happy.gif


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Anomia Grey
post Feb 15 2010, 04:56 PM
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This is amazing! When I started watching the first series I thought of the alchemy in FMA as a vulgarisation of historical alchemy that had little semblance to the original. Later, I was impressed with Al being turned himself into the philosopher's stone, and now I realise that my original judgement was wrong and that it was I who had an incomplete understanding of alchemy.

Not to be a complete spammer, in case this hasn't been already said, the 'Red Lion' that has been mentioned previously is one of the many symbols of the Philisopher's Stone.


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deet-tastic
post Feb 25 2010, 07:22 PM
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Found something that made me do a double-take. And then make me crap bricks.

I was re-reading chapter 30 and looking at the individual images of Al's memory from when he was in the gate.
And then I saw this
http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h219/sag...waIsAmazing.jpg

Obviously, the far right image.

But the one on the left, we've seen here.
http://www.onemanga.com/Full_Metal_Alchemist/102/014/

Figured it was worthy of discussion. Because it made me gasp out loud.



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