HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Chapter 95 "Regular" Discussion Thread For First Time Readers (and Others), No future chapter spoilers here, please. :)
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Colette
post May 14 2009, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (temmy @ May 12 2009, 09:59 PM) *
Regarding Envy's death - I skimmed over the arguments (because it's late and I'm tired), and I'm going to say that while Envy's death was not OOC (I agree with everyone insofar that he killed himself because it was the only thing he could do), it was remarkably lazy and still strikes me as an attempt by Arakawa to keep her heroes squeaky-clean in the present (more on this later). Also, I get the feeling that Arakawa really wants to finish the series; the quality of the art seems to be dropping (and I doubt it's stylistic, really), the pacing is a bit forced, and the situations are getting more and more contrived. At this point, I'm actually thinking the plot is careening out of control - which really isn't a bad thing, but only if you let it run naturally (see 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series by GRRM, and even that series is a bit iffy with me now). However, since she's really trying to force it in one specific direction in a set amount of chapters, I feel that the quality of the story is dropping, because it really does feel forced. I can actually sense the authorial manipulation, which does not make me a happy camper, because I . . . dislike stories that are heavy on the manipulation, because a.) it makes me think, oh, the story is getting bad enough so that the manipulation is actually necessary, and b.) I just don't like being actively manipulated, period.
I wholeheartedly agree. I liked the last chapter and was hopeful at first, but this chapter put me back in to my skeptical view on the direction of the series as a whole.


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Hagaren_4ever
post May 14 2009, 06:54 PM
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I not sure about just flat-out saying what it is that Arakawa was trying to get across to the reader here, but I can say the from my view point as a reader, that Envy killing himself was a real bore. Really, I was expected Roy to kill him.

And about what everyone's saying... how if one person kills someone it's not okay, but if it's someone else that dirtying they're hands... well, that's fine? I think that what some people (or at least what I) were trying to say is that

1) Roy went coo-coo. He's killed plenty of people in the past, nothing new here, but in this particular case, he was just acting out of anger and what not. (If this isn't true, then why did he not want anyone else to do it?) It would have been FANTASTIC if Roy had not gone loco about it and just wanted to kill Envy to save the world, but what Riza and Ed were afraid of (IMO) is that in the state of mind he was in, if he killed Envy and got away with it, that it would sort of ruin his out look on the world. Thinking that he may kill whoever wronged him, and that's why they were so desperate to stop him. I, personally, wouldn't have mind it, either way.

2) He was being just plain selfish. I mean, come on, he's not the only one who mourned Hughes's death. He loosened the sword, why not let someone else pull it from the stone? (Sorry for the bad analogy. happy.gif') I mean, if Envy's dead, what does he care? Sorry, Roy fans, but he was bein' kind of a jerk about the whole situation.

(IMO! Don't get mad or anything. I find everyone is entitled to there own opinion.)


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post May 14 2009, 07:50 PM
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I'm moving on to the second part of the chapter if everyone doesn't mind.

I loved Olivier's comment about her brother being strong enough to withstand a few "love taps." laugh.gif She's a rough one alright.

I'm happy to see the Brigg's guys, Falman, and Izumi. Next chapter should be interesting, but I have a feeling will not bring on the number of pages of discussion this one did.


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temmy
post May 14 2009, 07:56 PM
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Okay, holy crap - this is long. And I tried posting this last night when the site was down and lost this entire thing so I had to retype this. Forgive me for any incoherence. (There is probably a whole lot.)

QUOTE (Kirara @ May 13 2009, 03:30 PM) *
I don't see how Arakawa is sacrificing any realism in her story. Nothing that happened seemed unrealistic to me. Roy wanted to get revenge and the characters stopped him because they felt it was wrong. Perhaps what happened to Envy could be considered convenient but it still fit the character. And honestly I feel Arakawa killed the character this way to give Envy a more pathetic death not for convenience.

Nor did she force feed you anything. Just because her message is killing out of hatred and revenge is wrong does not mean you have to follow or believe this message. Most stories have a messages and themes. If Mustang had killed Envy would that mean she is force feeding the audience that getting this type of revenge is a good thing? When people like the message then everything is fine but when they disagree with it the author is force feeding them. There has been messages throughout the manga this is nothing new.

And I don't understand this argument dirty in the past and clean now issue. Why do you need Mustang to do something wrong in the present to be satisfied about his character? Personally I think the fact that Mustang was ready to attack Ed to kill Envy still shows he is far from perfect. So he made the right choice in the end that suddenly makes him a less interesting character to people?

Perhaps I worded my original post badly. By "realism", I was actually referring to the idea that Roy would suddenly become the big bad wolf after killing Envy out of revenge, because it implies that a.) human nature is really that black and white (which it isn't), and b.) it's okay for him to kill so long as he's calm. I was under the impression that killing is bad, regardless of whatever emotional state you're in; the fact that you're enraged while you commit murder doesn't make the crime any less bad. Take a look at the methodical killer who plans a murder out and the killer who murders someone on a whim. They're both bad, and I doubt you'll say that the first case can be any more justified than the second case. In fact, the first case may even be worse. So, how would Roy killing Envy now out of revenge change anything? It's not going to make him any worse than he was before. Arakawa established him early on as a very borderline and gray character, and her sudden treatment of him as if he's black and white is disturbing.

Now, messages can be presented without forcing it down the reader's throat. Chapter 95 forced it down my throat, whereas previous chapters have not. This happens when I can clearly feel the author's influence in the piece. I do not like this. And actually, I happen to disagree with messages I like. Case in point: His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman. Some of my favorite books, and I agree with his viewpoint. However, the entire series turned into an institutionalized religion-bashing spree. Definitely not good, and it did not sit well with me even if I don't like institutionalized religion. Another example of a book I love that irritates me: The Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver. First half of the book was great. She started pushing a political agenda in the second half. I was irritated. It's not the fact that she's pushing a message I disagree with (because I'm politically . . . ignorant), but the fact that she was pushing a political agenda that annoyed me to no end, because it started interfering with the story. So, I do trust myself to be able to separate my own personal views from what I'm reading/writing and to come up with an objective analysis. (Because God knows I think killing's wrong . . .)

With regards to your third point, I think I will concede to your argument there. Now that I look back at it, the clean now vs. dirty previously might've been something I concocted in order to justify my problems with the chapter, which really just stems from the first point I made above regarding the "realism." I don't think that his present cleanliness bothers me . . . However, the fact that Arakawa may be forcing the story along in a specific direction in a way that seems particularly forced does irritate me (again, I just don't like feeling the author's presence in the story). For instance, I would not have objected if Riza had clobbered Roy over the head and let him cool down that way, because that does seem rather natural. But instead, Arakawa let the characters engage in a shouting match about a very ambiguous subject (killing for revenge = BAD). Riza snapping Roy out of it by saying she'd commit suicide after she shoots him is believable, and I love that part of the chapter; the shouting match - no, just . . . no.

QUOTE (Haineko @ May 13 2009, 04:45 PM) *
I think what may be bothering you is that Arakawa is more of an idealist than a pragmatist—that is, she cares more about the principle of killing for personal revenge/hatred rather than the end result of that killing. You said that you couldn’t see how Roy killing Envy would make a difference in the end to his character, and you may have a point there, but I think Arakawa is concerned about the moral nature of that action itself rather than what the actual consequences of that action would be.

[snip - sorry, post getting a bit long]

Arakawa’s argument might be something like, “Yes, Roy has murdered thousands of people before, but it still doesn’t make the action of killing another for personal revenge any more justifiable now.” If the idea of personal revenge as an immoral action holds true in Scar and Winry’s case, she would say that it also holds true in Roy’s case as well, i.e. it’s the principle that matters. You could go on to argue that morality is relative and dependent on context rather than absolutes, but that’s another topic. The point is that Arakawa believes that if one action is morally wrong in one time and place, then it is also wrong in another time and place. Her beliefs are consistent here.

If I'm more concerned for for the pragmatics in this story, it's because Arakawa originally established it that way. FMA is more realistic than most other shonen manga out there. The incorporation of the equivalent exchange law = genius, if I may say so myself. However, if I want another hyped-up, overdramatic shonen series that extolls the greatness of friendship/trust/nakama/[insert other quality here], I can just find one on onemanga by clicking around randomly. But I was under the impression that FMA was (is?) better than those because the characters are realistic (or were, up until now).

If I supported all the other principles of the presidential candidate, then I would indeed vote for him. (Heck, I'm a Napoleon fanatic, so . . .) If the other candidate is incompetent, then there'd be no question.

Again, I'm less concerned about the morality of the entire thing and more concerned with how all of a sudden, Roy would be ruined if he killed someone out of revenge. It is not realistic to even think this way, especially given the fact that he wasn't ruined during the Ishbal Rebellion. If anything, I think the emotional impact would be weaker than it was after the war, when he was merely killing people because he was ordered to. Here, he would be killing someone because he wants to. I'm not arguing morality here - I'm once again arguing realism.

And actually, it may surprise you to know I'm an idealist and a romantic. (Really!) smile.gif

@ chaton: Well said! It is indeed a testament to Arakawa that we're actually having a discussion about this. Anyways, interesting post from another angle, especially concerning Riza's emotions and worries, which honestly makes me appreciate that scene more. Still, I'm a bit skeptical regarding the shouting match, as it still did feel very unnecessary and even the dialogue came out forced, though that may just be the translation. Still . . . come on? The "look at yourself in a mirror, you look like an animal" lines were laughably bad.

So I guess my main problem with this chapter is its overdramatization of the entire "killing out of revenge will destroy your soul" concept because it's black and white and completely untrue, especially given Roy's past. And the fact that the shouting match, to me at least, seems a cheap way for Arakawa to espouse her own views. (Something like that, I think.) Er. Right.
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Haineko
post May 15 2009, 12:53 AM
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Ouch, that's why I always type long posts in Word first XD. Anyways, I kinda changed my thoughts as I was typing so sorry if it doesn't come across as entirely coherent.

QUOTE (temmy @ May 14 2009, 07:56 PM) *
Again, I'm less concerned about the morality of the entire thing and more concerned with how all of a sudden, Roy would be ruined if he killed someone out of revenge. It is not realistic to even think this way, especially given the fact that he wasn't ruined during the Ishbal Rebellion. If anything, I think the emotional impact would be weaker than it was after the war, when he was merely killing people because he was ordered to. Here, he would be killing someone because he wants to. I'm not arguing morality here - I'm once again arguing realism.


Well, I personally think it’s very much about the morality of it all. I know you’re concerned about the “reality” of the situation here, but again, I think it’s a case where the characters themselves are concerned with an ideal, and are acting in response to that ideal. It’s the nature of the act itself that the characters are concerned about— you can say that adding one more killing to Roy’s string of past killings won’t make a difference at this point, but the danger of this rationale is that there’s no clear point at which it can stop being used. What’s one more killing going to do to his character, how about another, and another, maybe one more…?

It’s the entire cycle of revenge and hatred that Arakawa’s expounded on throughout the manga. No matter how justified you may be in seeking revenge, if you yourself don’t put an end to the violence, it will simply go on and on. The characters acknowledge this principle through their own experiences, and that’s why they’re stopping Roy—it’s to protect him from doing something that he’s going to regret later. I think, as others have stated, that the key here is Roy’s goal for the nation, and Hawkeye’s promise to watch his back if he ever strays from that path.

Here’s a theory I’ve been thinking about:

From my viewpoint, Roy is very much a man of principle—although we initially believe that he’s a morally ambiguous character (his ambition to become Fuhrer, his “murder” of Maria Ross), we come to see later on that really, he’s very much an idealist and sticks to his principles. That’s not saying he’s perfect, but he joined the army at a young age because he wanted to protect his country, became disillusioned during the Ishbal war, and since then, has worked to become the future leader and vowed to change the country so that another Ishbal would never happen again. He witnessed firsthand the horror of revenge, hatred, and violence, and decided to put an end to it. His entire mission therefore has a moral basis—he has to prove that he would be the kind of leader that Fuhrer Bradley never was. His request for Hawkeye to shoot him if he ever strays from his path is vital: Riza is there to make sure that he remains the kind of leader that is fit to carry that moral banner.

To go back to the president analogy, the president should ideally not do anything that violates his own principles because he’s in a position of power and setting the example for the rest of the nation. When you consider that the majority of coups end up with an equally oppressive or even more oppressive regime, it becomes very important that Roy and his crew make sure that they create the sort of government that will be reasonably just and moral. That’s why Scar remarks that Roy looks as if he’s not fit to be a leader because he’s violating his own principle of not engaging in bloodthirsty revenge. Roy’s orders to his men to shoot only to wound are not realistic at all, as I mentioned, and that’s the point—it shows how much he believes in his own principles, and for him to violate them in a temporary fit of rage, would indeed damage his character as well as his credibility as a leader who promises to refrain from revenge, hatred, and violence—the very things that created the Ishbal war in the first place.

I acknowledge that it’s hard to think of what possible negative consequences can result from Roy killing Envy, but I think it may be part of the point. There is simply no way to predict what can happen when you perform an act of violence, and it’s entirely possible that your actions will have very far-reaching consequences. Scar killed two people in Ishbal in a rage, and it took Winry’s parents away and impacted her forever. The Ishbal war began when a single officer “accidentally” shot a child. The point, again, is that hateful violence only spawns more hateful violence, and if Roy wants to put a stop to the kind of warring that’s been plaguing Amestris, then he should be the first person to set the example.

@ Chaton: Great analysis there, and very plausible too! I really liked how you pointed out Riza’s own feelings and motivations here. Although my interpretation is that everyone’s stopping Roy was a function of their shared understanding of the nature of hatred and revenge, I also think that Riza does play a very large personal role in helping bring Roy back to his senses. I tend to think that her suffering is another way of showing the negative consequences that revenge can have: you think that you’re only hurting your enemy, but violence has unintended effects, and oftentimes can hurt the ones you hold most dear.
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Kirara
post May 15 2009, 04:32 AM
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QUOTE (temmy @ May 14 2009, 08:56 PM) *
Perhaps I worded my original post badly. By "realism", I was actually referring to the idea that Roy would suddenly become the big bad wolf after killing Envy out of revenge, because it implies that a.) human nature is really that black and white (which it isn't), and b.) it's okay for him to kill so long as he's calm. I was under the impression that killing is bad, regardless of whatever emotional state you're in; the fact that you're enraged while you commit murder doesn't make the crime any less bad.


Okay but I do not see this is what the chapter was saying at all. I do not think Arakawa was trying to say that if Roy killed Envy he would suddenly become a cold hearted killer only after revenge. You are right that one moment is not going to change a person forever.

However at that moment Roy was not himself. He was taking pleasure in killing Envy, he was shouting at Riza, threatening Ed. I don't think what happiness in the future matters but the here and now of that moment. You can argue well just let him get his revenge and he will cool off later but does that make what Roy is doing right? It's not the fact that Roy was killing when he was enraged was the problem it was the fact that he was killing purely out of hatred and revenge. It's not the emotion behind the killing it is the reason behind it. It could just be this once but what if something happened to another one of his comrades, what if something happened to Riza?

Roy has a goal and mission to save the country. He asked Riza to shoot him in the back if he ever strays off that path. In my eyes he did and this is why Riza confronted him. It's not even just about Roy's own goals but the fact that Roy was using the flame alchemy (the secret that Riza gave him) for his own personal reasons, in this case killing Envy. If you think about that power that Roy wields it makes sense that Riza would stop him from using it for his personal revenge.

As for your example with His Dark Materials: I love those books but yes I can understand your argument about force feeding the audience a bit more. Why because religion itself is a major issue and clearly the author was pushing his views on this subject matter on the audience. That is probably a big reason why those books were written in the first place. So yes I can see why you call that series a "Message Fantasy:. But I don't think Arakawa sat down and said let me write a story about why killing out of revenge is wrong. Mind you it has been a consistent theme: Roy, Winry, Scar but it's not the only theme nor does this theme overrun the manga.
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chaton
post May 15 2009, 07:06 AM
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Okay... I haven't quite figured out the correct way to do quotes, but anyway...

QUOTE (temmy @ May 14 2009, 10:56 PM) *
@ chaton: Well said! It is indeed a testament to Arakawa that we're actually having a discussion about this. Anyways, interesting post from another angle, especially concerning Riza's emotions and worries, which honestly makes me appreciate that scene more. Still, I'm a bit skeptical regarding the shouting match, as it still did feel very unnecessary and even the dialogue came out forced, though that may just be the translation. Still . . . come on? The "look at yourself in a mirror, you look like an animal" lines were laughably bad.

I’ll completely agree with you that that dialog is pretty terrible, but translated dialog is usually quite awful. Every chapter has lines that make my eyes roll. You’re right that some of that is likely translation. I prefer Tombow’s translations, because they seem more accurate, but with more accurate translators, the dialog seldom flows very smoothly and sometimes seems awkward. Translators that take more liberties (like those posting on OneManga) seem to have smoother flowing dialog, but it can come out pretty hacky or cheesy too as they make up lines that they think capture the essence of the scene. Either can produce cringe-worthy lines and can never compare to the real dialog. Even a literally translated line that comes off cheesy here might not come off that way in Japan. So, I pretty much ignore anything I find bad in the dialog.

I don’t mind the idea behind the line you mentioned. If I read it as saying revenge is animal-like, it’s completely stupid. Revenge is a human concept- animals don’t plot revenge on each other (at least beyond immediate recourse in a fight). But if you think about it referring to Roy’s actions rather than his motivation, the comparison is apt. Animals are largely self-interested, do not consider the consequences of their actions beyond immediate direct ones, act primarily on instinct, and lack morality. In accordance with this, Roy is thinking only about himself and does not recognize the consequences of his actions (hurting Riza). I guess anger is an emotion more than an instinct, but emotion without reason is essentially an instinct. And as far as the reader knows, he has not applied any moral assessment to his thinking- he does not justify himself with “this is okay because…” There are a number of reasons he could give here, but this is never shown- by all appearances, he has not given much consideration to the morality of his actions and is acting only on his base desires- like an animal does. This is in sharp contrast to his hopes for the country, because the altruistic consideration and empathy for those you don’t even know is a fundamental part of what separates humans from the animals- as far as anyone can tell, only humans are capable of thinking like this. Considering this, I don’t find this analogy too bad.


QUOTE (temmy @ May 14 2009, 10:56 PM) *
So I guess my main problem with this chapter is its overdramatization of the entire "killing out of revenge will destroy your soul" concept because it's black and white and completely untrue, especially given Roy's past. And the fact that the shouting match, to me at least, seems a cheap way for Arakawa to espouse her own views. (Something like that, I think.) Er. Right.

The line you based this on was expressed in Ch. 94, not Ch. 95, wasn’t it? This chapter alone says nothing of the kind, although you can infer it if you want. I very much disliked Scar’s line last chapter because it was too preachy. I don’t think it was wrong though. Obviously, it’s not like Star Wars in the real world, where one wrong act and you suddenly turn to the “dark side”. I don’t think this idea should be taken like that- Roy won’t suddenly turn evil because of one bad act, especially when he has committed so many acts in the past and in many ways remains a good person. However, the combination of the bad acts in the past with this act would show a serious moral deficiency on Roy’s part, which would have substantial effects on his future actions. I guess this comes down to a causation vs. correlation argument- past bad acts don't cause future bad acts but someone who committed bad acts in the past is more likely to commit bad acts in the future due to both being cause by the same moral deficiency. I would argue that we have never seen Roy challenged with a serious moral dilemma besides in Ishval and here with Envy. In the first case, he failed and in this case, he almost failed. Don’t get me wrong, Roy seems very nice and has quite a lot of virtues- he’s ordinarily a good guy. Only extreme circumstances make him act badly. But that is the problem. What kind of person are you if you are good only so long as being bad is not the only way to get something you really want? It’s these extreme circumstances that show a person’s character. How you respond to temptation is just as important as how you act when you are not tempted. A second moral failure on Roy’s part is cause for the others’ concern about his future actions, particularly if they see him as leading the country, but even if they didn’t since he is a powerful character. If he failed morally twice, he would likely fail again. I can see how his moral failure in the past can be seen as a lesson he learned and would not repeat, but combined with a subsequent misuse of his power in the present, I think there is cause to worry about what he might do in the future.

As to the “degrading the soul” idea itself, it does not necessarily mean it would change him or necessarily affect him in the living world, especially because Scar is religious. It depends on your religious or philosophical tradition, I guess, whether or not you accept this, but it has some merit and could be taken either literally or metaphorically. I think it is mostly related to the Hindu or Buddhist concepts of karma and the effects your actions will have on the next life of your soul. If I remember right, it’s also present in the Christian tradition: a good action does not itself absolve a bad one because only God can absolve sins, suggesting a metaphorical mark on your soul. In the US court system at least, subsequent good actions will not keep people from being found guilty, though they may mitigate their sentence. I'm not religious, but bad stuff I've done in the past (like teasing my brother in childhood) still weighs on my conscience, even though I believe I am generally a good person now. So, it’s not really an absurd concept, especially metaphorically.

I would not call it that shouting match either, since that would imply Roy was arguing back. I did not find it too bad, because all of the dialog related directly to Roy- there were no sweeping generalizations about revenge. You could infer lessons if you wanted to, but you could also enjoy the chapter without considering them. The whole manga is an expression of Arakawa’s views, as all stories of any significance reflect the views of their author. Good ones have moral lessons or social commentary but should still be enjoyable to people who don’t necessarily agree with them. These stories should provoke thought rather than expect acceptance of the author’s viewpoint. I do think this one provokes thought. What makes a story bad to me is if the moral lesson is heavy-handed. This may meet your definition of heavy-handed, but I’ve read much, much worse.

I don’t mean to argue with you. I can definitely see where you're coming from and I would feel the same way if I read the chapter with the similar interpretations and focus because I simply do not like moral lessons even if I agree with them. But I thought I should take the slight chance that you might enjoy the chapter a bit more if I told you why these things did not bother me.


QUOTE (Haineko @ May 15 2009, 03:53 AM) *
@ Chaton: Great analysis there, and very plausible too! I really liked how you pointed out Riza’s own feelings and motivations here. Although my interpretation is that everyone’s stopping Roy was a function of their shared understanding of the nature of hatred and revenge, I also think that Riza does play a very large personal role in helping bring Roy back to his senses. I tend to think that her suffering is another way of showing the negative consequences that revenge can have: you think that you’re only hurting your enemy, but violence has unintended effects, and oftentimes can hurt the ones you hold most dear.

Your interpretation is quite good (I’ve read some of your posts), and no doubt just as valid as mine. I minimize the importance of the revenge motif because I don’t care for it, which seems to be where we differ. After chapter 94, I was totally worried that the characters were going to spend a bunch of time explaining to Roy and all of us readers that revenge is wrong. I hate heavy-handed moral lessons, but my fears were unfounded- there were no big speeches about what was wrong with revenge. Instead, the chapter was very true to the characters (something often lost in moral lessons), the dialog was clearly directed specifically at Roy with the reader free to infer what lessons would be applicable beyond his situation, and the drama did not require the acceptance of the morality presented to be moving. So, I interpreted it to be how I liked it- and I think both your interpretation and mine can be supported by the text.
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post May 15 2009, 07:48 AM
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Now please resume your discussions ~ biggrin.gif

(BTW, awesome discussions!! I really enjoy reading them.. ^^)

BTW, yes, I know my translation right now is awfully awkward, and I haven't gone back and do the editing yet because I have tons of stuff that's due right now, and while I'm on board here I'm also working on my papers and reports like crazy this week. Sorry... ^^ I'll clean up my translation this weekend. (as I already posted that's how it's going to be. ^^)


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chaton
post May 16 2009, 01:24 AM
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QUOTE (Tombow @ May 15 2009, 07:48 AM) *
=============

BTW, yes, I know my translation right now is awfully awkward, and I haven't gone back and do the editing yet because I have tons of stuff that's due right now, and while I'm on board here I'm also working on my papers and reports like crazy this week. Sorry... ^^ I'll clean up my translation this weekend. (as I already posted that's how it's going to be. ^^)


I’m sorry, Tombow. I just realized how the line I said before came off- I did not mean to imply that your translations are awkward. Actually, I really like your translations. I just meant to express that in many translations I’ve noticed a trade-off between accuracy and the way the dialog flows. In my opinion, you actually seem to find a good balance, getting across the meaning of the dialog without adhering so strictly to the literal translations that the dialog sounds absurd (due to variations in English and Japanese sentence structure and such). Of the translations I’ve seen for all the chapters of FMA, I would say yours and CSakuraS’s are my favorite by far, though I don’t speak a word of Japanese, which makes my assessment of this a bit dubious. But I do think it’s pretty obvious you’re a perfectionist and I read with great interest your explanation of some of your translating methodology in the Royai thread. There may be a line here or there that seems a bit odd or silly to me, but I've never seen a good translation of a manga or anime that did not have some of these (probably because it was either inane in the source material or it comes off as inane to people here but clever in Japan since what is considered clever is partially culturally defined and is not always universal).

I actually came to this site a few months ago because of your translations. Several times the translation on OneManga appeared to have overlooked some nuance that was apparent from the pictures (e.g. In Ch. 94, by using the first person plural, that translation appeared to miss that Riza’s response to Ed suggested that she was worried about stopping Roy, not Envy, reducing how ominous Riza's “If I can’t manage it, then…” was). Apparent problems like this drove me to search the internet for alternative translations and I happily found yours here. Don’t get me wrong: I do appreciate HisshouBuraiKen’s translations and his/her ability to translate quickly, but I wish they did not become the defining translations due to people flocking to the first available ones. There is a trade-off between speed and quality, and quality has been sadly on the losing side here.

That said, do you upload yours as scanlations too? I’ve only seen the translations. Is there a legal reason that you don’t scanlate or is it just a matter of time? If it’s a matter of time, I’d consider volunteering my services for a while at least. It seems like it would be simple but pretty tedious- I could handle that.

And thanks for telling me the quote thing. I was going to look it up, but I just hadn’t gotten around to it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since my post is a bit off topic and the second half of the chapter has been fairly neglected in discussion, I wanted to express that I love the way the blood is running down Olivia’s cheeks. The similarity of the pattern of the blood to tears evokes a visceral reaction from me- each time I see her blood-stained face, my mind immediately interprets her expression as one of suffering and desperation due to the tear-like blood. But, I have to check this response, because logically I know Olivia is not crying- and behind these blood-stains, her expression is fierce and determined. By giving an illusion of suffering and desperation, the blood evokes considerable empathy for Olivia’s plight, while not compromising her character by having her actually show that she is feeling such things (though one can imagine as a human being, she is). But the blood does not only evoke empathy, because when focusing on her expression, the blood takes on the look of a war-paint instead and heightens her apparent fierceness. Overall, it adds to the drama of the scenes and makes me care a lot more about a character that I previously did not like very much.
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Hagaren_4ever
post May 16 2009, 08:07 PM
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Yeah, it's kinda hard to feel connection to Oliver Armstronge. By the way, I like the name Oliver for a girl, (Weird. I like boy's names for girls), but I thought it was "Olivia"? Or am I wronge?


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Kyelinn
post May 16 2009, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (chaton @ May 16 2009, 03:24 AM) *
Since my post is a bit off topic and the second half of the chapter has been fairly neglected in discussion, I wanted to express that I love the way the blood is running down Olivia’s cheeks. The similarity of the pattern of the blood to tears evokes a visceral reaction from me- each time I see her blood-stained face, my mind immediately interprets her expression as one of suffering and desperation due to the tear-like blood. But, I have to check this response, because logically I know Olivia is not crying- and behind these blood-stains, her expression is fierce and determined. By giving an illusion of suffering and desperation, the blood evokes considerable empathy for Olivia’s plight, while not compromising her character by having her actually show that she is feeling such things (though one can imagine as a human being, she is). But the blood does not only evoke empathy, because when focusing on her expression, the blood takes on the look of a war-paint instead and heightens her apparent fierceness. Overall, it adds to the drama of the scenes and makes me care a lot more about a character that I previously did not like very much.


I actually noticed that as well and have also seen Arakawa do that with Ed if I'm not mistaken...?

QUOTE (Hagaren_4ever)
Yeah, it's kinda hard to feel connection to Oliver Armstronge. By the way, I like the name Oliver for a girl, (Weird. I like boy's names for girls), but I thought it was "Olivia"? Or am I wronge?


I've seen it translated as both Olivier and Olivia, so it's hard to say...o_o I could look in my translated manga that I've purchased from the store. It's translated by VizMedia, so...


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Krokgard
post May 17 2009, 05:03 AM
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QUOTE
I actually noticed that as well and have also seen Arakawa do that with Ed if I'm not mistaken...?

Yeah, in the 5° chapter, when Ed beats Tucker. But maybe in that case it were really tears.
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chaton
post May 17 2009, 05:43 AM
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QUOTE (Hagaren_4ever @ May 16 2009, 08:07 PM) *
Yeah, it's kinda hard to feel connection to Oliver Armstronge. By the way, I like the name Oliver for a girl, (Weird. I like boy's names for girls), but I thought it was "Olivia"? Or am I wronge?


I think they write it as "Olivier" not "Oliver." In my mind, it would be pronounced like the name of the actor, Laurence Olivier (Like "Olivi-ay"). On Wikipedia, it listed the Japanese version in english letters as "Orivie Mira Amusutorongu," so the "R" probably is not pronounced. So, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then it would sound like "Olivi-ay" in Japanese. However, Arakawa may have been thinking of the name "Olivia," but there may be no way to write the sound "ia" or "via" (depending on where the kanji separate in her name) in Japanese and "i-ay" is as close as they can get. Maybe someone who speaks Japanese here can tell us whether it would have been possible to write a name pronounced as "Olivia" in Japanese.

Even if Arakawa was initially inspired by "Olivia," I don't know whether or not that would be the official version. It would be my guess that "Riza" initially came from "Lisa" or "Liza" (from "Elizabeth, likely), but was later decided to be "Riza."

Since I don't know the official version, until I hear it I'll always use "Olivia" just because that's how I first saw it translated and it's hard for me to change. I also just think "Olivia" is a beautiful name.

QUOTE (Kyelinn @ May 16 2009, 10:13 PM) *
I actually noticed that as well and have also seen Arakawa do that with Ed if I'm not mistaken...?


I'm pretty sure you're right, but I'm too lazy to look it up. With Ed, it's pretty easy to empathize with him anyway, so it did not have the same effect on me. It looks cool either way, though.


QUOTE (Hagaren_4ever @ May 16 2009, 08:07 PM) *
Yeah, it's kinda hard to feel connection to Oliver Armstronge. By the way, I like the name Oliver for a girl, (Weird. I like boy's names for girls), but I thought it was "Olivia"? Or am I wronge?


I think they write it as "Olivier" not "Oliver." In my mind, it would be pronounced like the name of the actor, Laurence Olivier (Like "Olivi-ay"). On Wikipedia, it listed has the Japanese version in english letters as "Orivie Mira Amusutorongu," so the "R" probably is not pronounced. So, if Wikipedia is to be believed, then it would sound like "Olivi-ay" in Japanese. However, Arakawa may have been thinking of the name "Olivia," but there is no way to write the sound "ia" in Japan, and "i-ay" is as close as they can get. Maybe someone who speaks Japanese here can tell us.

I don't know the official version, but until I hear it, I'll always use "Olivia." For one thing, that's how I first saw it translated and it's hard for me to change. Also, I just prefer "Olivia"

QUOTE (Kyelinn @ May 16 2009, 10:13 PM) *
I actually noticed that as well and have also seen Arakawa do that with Ed if I'm not mistaken...?


I'm pretty sure you're right, but I'm too lazy to look it up. With Ed, it's pretty easy to empathize with him anyway, so it did not have the same effect on me. It looks cool either way, though.

@ Krokgard: I don't see it in Ch. 5 of the manga. Maybe it was in one of the anime episodes with Tucker? I don't recall, but I don't think Ed gets hit in this scene.
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Krokgard
post May 17 2009, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE
@ Krokgard: I don't see it in Ch. 5 of the manga. Maybe it was in one of the anime episodes with Tucker? I don't recall, but I don't think Ed gets hit in this scene.

I' m talking about these pictures:


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Kyelinn
post May 17 2009, 11:52 AM
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Yes! That's the one! Good memory there. laugh.gif Mine seems to have hit a downfall as of late. It really does look like it though. Which brings me back to something earlier. I wonder if Arakawa is setting something up? I remember awhile back Al saying that he and his brother just needed a good cry, but he couldn't cry with his body. Winry had said something about "And then there's this idiot who has a body that can cry and won't." Hmmm....oh well, just reading too much into the angst probably. xD


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