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Human Cloning
Popogeejo
post Feb 15 2007, 06:38 AM
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QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 15 2007, 01:28 PM) [snapback]505458[/snapback]
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Feb 15 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]505457[/snapback]
QUOTE
The only reason why clones could not be grown in a woman's womb is because clones are 100% test tube!!
Why?


Because clones are born from somatic cell nuclear transfer [SCNT]!! It doesn't need any womb... thus clones are 100% test tube...

That doesn't mean the embryo can't be put in the womb...and even if i can't I fail to see the problem. The end result is still a human.


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Rather than pity them later, I rather goes against it, since prevention is better than cure...
We should still have the cure available if the prevention doesn't work.

Whats the cure? How? Grand massacre? Chop them into hamburger meat and feed to the tigers at zoo? Aww...yuck

Simply create a clone with a the gene that allows a brain to form removed. You now can grow a dummy human that is not strictly alive and can be used for spare parts. It doesn't suffer because it has no awareness of anything. Your Tiger and Zoo thing is just non nonsensical and just illogical.

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Kenji
post Feb 15 2007, 06:49 AM
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QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Feb 15 2007, 09:38 PM) [snapback]505462[/snapback]
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 15 2007, 01:28 PM) [snapback]505458[/snapback]
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Feb 15 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]505457[/snapback]
QUOTE
The only reason why clones could not be grown in a woman's womb is because clones are 100% test tube!!
Why?


Because clones are born from somatic cell nuclear transfer [SCNT]!! It doesn't need any womb... thus clones are 100% test tube...

That doesn't mean the embryo can't be put in the womb...and even if i can't I fail to see the problem.


Who wants to put the SCNT embryo into a womb and risk herself getting cancer?

QUOTE
The end result is still a human.
A human with a different way on how they come to this world...

QUOTE
Simply create a clone with a the gene that allows a brain to form removed. You now can grow a dummy human that is not strictly alive and can be used for spare parts. It doesn't suffer because it has no awareness of anything. Your Tiger and Zoo thing is just non nonsensical and just illogical.


Thats for unborn clones...what is the cure for existing clones that have born if cloning does get approval near future and somehow, people found a loophole and want to "cure" it? This is the time my "Tiger and Zoo" theory comes to work....It is cheap, It is fast and It is easy...


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Popogeejo
post Feb 15 2007, 07:39 AM
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QUOTE
Who wants to put the SCNT embryo into a womb and risk herself getting cancer?
It's a minimal risk and people have taken bigger risks for science before.

QUOTE
A human with a different way on how they come to this world...

Your point being?

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Thats for unborn clones...
...You've lost me here. The clones I described would be "born" but not alive in the traditional sense. It sounds stupid but it's possible.

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what is the cure for existing clones that have born if cloning does get approval near future and somehow, people found a loophole and want to "cure" it?

What the hell are you talking about? A cure for what? If we made fully active human clones then they would be subject to the same rights as everyone else, they would not be forced to donate their organs to the person they were cloned from...(assuming that's what you mean)

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This is the time my "Tiger and Zoo" theory comes to work....It is cheap, It is fast and It is easy...
1) Your "Tiger and Zoo" thing is not a theory.
2) It seems like your saying if we clone people we'll end up using them for food "because we could."
In that case I'd point out we haven't done this with homeless people yet and it would be easier to clone, oh I don't know, cattle and such for animal consumption.
3) This is about the stupidest argument I've heard against cloning. It doesn't even begin to make sense.

All these debates are getting bogged down in retarded statements. Please people, think through your points loigcally before you post them.

QUOTE
Stem cell research and human cloning belongs to different genetic engineering field...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6353919.stm


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Kenji
post Feb 15 2007, 08:20 AM
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QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Feb 15 2007, 10:39 PM) [snapback]505471[/snapback]
It's a minimal risk and people have taken bigger risks for science before.


Who will be so stupid willingly let herself to contract uterus cancer...

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Your point being?
Take how you are born against how they are born... easy as that...

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You've lost me here. The clones I described would be "born" but not alive in the traditional sense. It sounds stupid but it's possible.


I got it... Same concept with KFC's chickens long long [10-12 years ago] time ago...They grow chickens without heads, feathers and feets... and yet the chickens grows day by day...

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What the hell are you talking about? A cure for what? If we made fully active human clones then they would be subject to the same rights as everyone else, they would not be forced to donate their organs to the person they were cloned from...(assuming that's what you mean)
How do you know they will be subjected to the same rights as everyone else?
How do you know they will not be forced to butchered themselves to donate their parts?

QUOTE

1) Your "Tiger and Zoo" thing is not a theory.
2) It seems like your saying if we clone people we'll end up using them for food "because we could."

Forget it...thats my own theory...
I dint stat that "we'll end up using them as food"....

QUOTE
3) This is about the stupidest argument I've heard against cloning. It doesn't even begin to make sense.

All these debates are getting bogged down in retarded statements. Please people, think through your points loigcally before you post them.
Just because my theory sounds retard it doesn't mean the whole arguement debate, to be precise, sounds stupid... Try think out of the box... =.=

QUOTE

QUOTE
Stem cell research and human cloning belongs to different genetic engineering field...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6353919.stm


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Chiyo
post Feb 15 2007, 08:26 AM
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QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 15 2007, 03:20 PM) [snapback]505480[/snapback]
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Feb 15 2007, 10:39 PM) [snapback]505471[/snapback]
It's a minimal risk and people have taken bigger risks for science before.


Who will be so stupid willingly let herself to contract uterus cancer...


You said yourself it was a risk....its not that a woman would actually just be giving herself cancer. Its like people who smoke know it could give them cancer but that won't stop them


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Kenji
post Feb 15 2007, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE(Chiyo @ Feb 15 2007, 11:26 PM) [snapback]505482[/snapback]
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 15 2007, 03:20 PM) [snapback]505480[/snapback]
QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Feb 15 2007, 10:39 PM) [snapback]505471[/snapback]
It's a minimal risk and people have taken bigger risks for science before.


Who will be so stupid willingly let herself to contract uterus cancer...


You said yourself it was a risk....


I dint said so... From the beginning, I dint even stat that cloning involves uterus....unsure.gif
IMO, cloning is 100% test tube as I mention above...
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Chiyo
post Feb 15 2007, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE
Who wants to put the SCNT embryo into a womb and risk herself getting cancer?


Is what I was replying to...you mentioned it being a risk then go on to say its a certainty


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Popogeejo
post Feb 15 2007, 08:37 AM
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QUOTE
Who will be so stupid willingly let herself to contract uterus cancer...
It's A MINIMAL RISK! That means the odds of the women getting caner is, and this is the technical part, Minimal! There is a risk that Astronauts will be killed at several points in a mission but they do it. Same can be said for people in the army.

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Take how you are born against how they are born... easy as that...

I'm sorry, but I don't see the problem. Caesarean babies are born differently but they are still normal. Why should test tube babies be any different. Please explain, carefully.

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How do you know they will be subjected to the same rights as everyone else?
How do you know they will not be forced to butchered themselves to donate their parts?
Because these would be clones of humans and therefore subject to human rights.

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I dint stat that "we'll end up using them as food"....

Well you did say we would feed them to animals...

QUOTE
Just because my theory sounds retard it doesn't mean the whole arguement debate, to be precise, sounds stupid...
Those were two separate statements. Your statement was retarded and made no sense. This debate is good (well it's okay) but there are tons of stupid arguments being made in several debates that make the whole debate district rather hard to enjoy.

QUOTE
Try think out of the box... =.=

What the hell is that even supposed to mean? It's such a stupid term bandied by people who have no idea what they're talking about!


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Kenji
post Feb 15 2007, 08:58 AM
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QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Feb 15 2007, 11:37 PM) [snapback]505487[/snapback]
Take how you are born against how they are born... easy as that...
I'm sorry, but I don't see the problem. Caesarean babies are born differently but they are still normal. Why should test tube babies be any different. Please explain, carefully.

Damn...I am so frustrated now for stepping into the wrong boat...gotta continue nevertheless... its rude and unresponsible to leave people wondering...

Normal babies born are with umbilical cords thus they will have belly button and normal babies embryo is a mitosis and meiosis of both male and female gamete. Furthermore, they are protected by amnion fluid when they are inside mother's womb. They are being feed with mother's nutrients and got the goodness of breast milk after they were born... Whereas a clone is produced from SCNT and when in developing stage they were feed with unknown substances, soaked in an unknown substance... and they are breed with tubes connected to them...

<Remark: I translated a few terms from Malay language,I apologize for spelling errors>


QUOTE

QUOTE
Just because my theory sounds retard it doesn't mean the whole arguement debate, to be precise, sounds stupid...
Those were two separate statements. Your statement was retarded and made no sense. This debate is good (well it's okay) but there are tons of stupid arguments being made in several debates that make the whole debate district rather hard to enjoy.


Debates are ment to be "stupid" to each other so that they can be debated continuesly...
Which is why I stayed out from debates at my school...
This is the first time I am so commited to a debate...

QUOTE

QUOTE
Try think out of the box... =.=
What the hell is that even supposed to mean? It's such a stupid term bandied by people who have no idea what they're talking about!


If it is such a stupid term, then forget it... it is too simple and yet complicated...
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Chiyo
post Feb 15 2007, 09:01 AM
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I think Popo was trying to say is even if you think 'outside the box' you cannot presume things will turn the way you believe they will. To me looking at it practically does not mean it will become human farming


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Kenji
post Feb 15 2007, 09:13 AM
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My tiger and zoo theory is only a concept of what human will do in order to wipe out something they wish to dissapear... Oftenly they will resort to the cheapest way, the easiest way and the fastest way... Take that trivia and start think differently... It doesn't really necessary means "chop clones into hamburger meat and feed them to the tigers at zoo". Just because it sounds stupid it does not mean the whole thing is useless, retard, silly, dummy or whatever you called it....

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Popogeejo
post Feb 15 2007, 09:14 AM
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QUOTE
Normal babies born are with umbilical cords, thus they will have belly button. Furthermore, they are protected by amnion fluid when they are inside mother's womb. They are being feed with mother's nutrients and got the goodness of breast milk after they were born...
I know all that, and mother milk has nothing to do with anything. Any milk will do for the most part.

QUOTE
Whereas a clone is being feed with unknown substances, soaked in an unknown substance... and they are breed with tubes connected to them...
I'm fairly confident they are "soaked" in amnion fluid. It should be fairly easy to replicate and they would be fed proper nutrients and such.
I still don't see what any of this has to do with anything, the end result is still a person, except the clone won't have bellybutton.
Humans are humans, bellybutton or not.


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Chiyo
post Feb 15 2007, 09:17 AM
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QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 15 2007, 04:13 PM) [snapback]505497[/snapback]
Just because it sounds stupid it does not mean the whole thing is useless, retard, silly, dummy or whatever you called it....

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I don't remember calling it any of those things, and neither did Popo.


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Kenji
post Feb 15 2007, 09:19 AM
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QUOTE(Popogeejo @ Feb 16 2007, 12:14 AM) [snapback]505498[/snapback]
QUOTE
Normal babies born are with umbilical cords, thus they will have belly button. Furthermore, they are protected by amnion fluid when they are inside mother's womb. They are being feed with mother's nutrients and got the goodness of breast milk after they were born...
I know all that, and mother milk has nothing to do with anything. Any milk will do for the most part.


Oh...really? Then whats with all the researches that proves the goodness of breastmilk to new born child??

QUOTE

QUOTE
Whereas a clone is being feed with unknown substances, soaked in an unknown substance... and they are breed with tubes connected to them...
I'm fairly confident they are "soaked" in amnion fluid. It should be fairly easy to replicate and they would be fed proper nutrients and such.
I still don't see what any of this has to do with anything, the end result is still a person, except the clone won't have bellybutton.
Humans are humans, bellybutton or not.


Why clones need to be soaked in amnion fluids when they are guaranteed shockproof?
Again, I emphasize...I doesn't see clones as monsters... They are still human albeit they are came from different way...

QUOTE(Chiyo @ Feb 16 2007, 12:17 AM) [snapback]505499[/snapback]
QUOTE(Kenji @ Feb 15 2007, 04:13 PM) [snapback]505497[/snapback]
Just because it sounds stupid it does not mean the whole thing is useless, retard, silly, dummy or whatever you called it....

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I am damn sleepy now...good nite..zzz


I don't remember calling it any of those things, and neither did Popo.


What I mean whole thing is not limited to the "Tiger and Zoo" alone...but rather the whole of my debate...
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Popogeejo
post Feb 15 2007, 09:22 AM
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QUOTE
Oh...really? Then whats with all the researches that proves the goodness of breastmilk to new born child??
Mothers milk might be the best but it's not the only option. Cow's milk is a perfectly good substitute. So is Yaks and goats milk.

QUOTE
Again, I emphasize...I doesn't see clones as monsters... They are still human albeit they are came from different way...
Then why the hell are you arguing the point? It's pointless.


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